Part 2. Dragons and Starks

[AlaskanSandman]

Part 2.

Dragons and Starks

 

So this is a carry over from part 1.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150239-part-1-the-blacks/

 

The Return of Dragons and Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai.

 

Spoiler

 

So how did Daenerys bring back dragons? By blood magic and the sacrifice of 3 people close to her.

So let’s first point out something about any potential father of Daenerys based on the previous information surrounding the fall out of Bael and Queen Alysanne.

Aerys – Stark

Rhaegar – Stark

Eddard – Stark

Brandon – Stark

No matter who her father is, Daenerys is a Stark.

 

                                                       I---------------------------------------- I

          Bael============Stark Maid                                      Lord Snow===Alysanne

                                 I                                                                                         I Southern Lady

                                 I                                                               I---------------------------I

                          Lord Snow/Stark                                 Jocelyn Baratheon      Gael the Winterchild.

                     Raised by Uncle Stark                      Raised by a diff fam.       Raised by Uncle Jaehaerys.

                       Born in the crypts                                            Born at Queens Crown Tower.

                    Fights father 30 yr later.

 

 

 

                                                       I---------------------------------------- I

          Bael============Stark Maid                                      Lord Stark  ===Ashara Dayne

  Mance Rayder     I          Lyanna Stark                               Eddard Stark    I Southern Lady.

      Abel                   I                                                               I---------------------------I

                          Lord Snow/Stark                                 Daenerys Targaryen      Val the Princess

                     Raised by Uncle Eddard                      Raised by a diff fam.       Raised by Uncle Mance

                       Born in the crypts?                                         Born at Tower of Joy/ Sorrow.

                    Fights father 15 yr later.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

 

The author has dismissed the idea that Daenerys cannot be harmed by fire in the past. “TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE!,” he said during a discussion with fans. ‘The birth of Dany’s dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn’t immune to that molten gold.”

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"You'll have gold, horses, whatever you like."

"It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is blood magic, lady. Only death may pay for life."

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze (Viserion) , and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a finesheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. 

This is well after the death of Viserys and same chapter later.

Quote

No, she had known before she woke. Her dream came back to her, sudden and vivid, and she remembered the tall man with the copper skin and long silver-gold braid, bursting into flame.

She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.

Right after the passing of Rhaego, to which after, Daenerys will kill Drogo. Viserys was given to the flames through molten gold, while Rhaego and Drogo are given to the flames through a pyre.

All of this is after

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

Ser Jorah lowered his eyes respectfully. Illyrio smiled enigmatically and tore a wing from the duck. Honey and grease ran over his fingers and dripped down into his beard as he nibbled at the tender meat. There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud.

Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. "You woke the dragon," he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon." Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …

… until the day of her wedding came at last.

 

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

And after the gifts, she knew, after the sun had gone down, it would be time for the first ride and the consummation of her marriage.

When Azor (Drogo) will stab Nissa Nissa (Daenerys) with his magic sword (penis-sword). To birth a baby that will be sacrificed with shadow binding and blood magic, along with her brother and her lover. To birth the three heads of the Dragon.

 

So this is how a Daenerys Stark hatched dragons. No matter who her parents were.

 

 

Promise me Ned.

Spoiler

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

Ned could recall none of it. Why? Could this memory be wrong?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

Ned did not honor that with a reply. Nor did he offer his guest a seat, but Littlefinger took one anyway. "After you stormed out, it was left to me to convince them not to hire the Faceless Men," he continued blithely. "Instead Varys will quietly let it be known that we'll make a lord of whoever does in the Targaryen girl."

Ned was disgusted. "So now we grant titles to assassins."

Littlefinger shrugged. "Titles are cheap. The Faceless Men are expensive. If truth be told, I did the Targaryen girl more good than you with all your talk of honor. Let some sellsword drunk on visions of lordship try to kill her. Likely he'll make a botch of it, and afterward the Dothraki will be on their guard. If we'd sent a Faceless Man after her, she'd be as good as buried."

It starts in Eddard VIII with the Assassin and Eddard fighting with Robert over it.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

Ned was not laughing. "Shall I call them back?"

Robert gave a weak nod. "As you will. Gods, why is it so cold in here?"

The servants rushed back in and hurried to feed the fires. The queen had gone; that was some small relief, at least. If she had any sense, Cersei would take her children and fly before the break of day, Ned thought. She had lingered too long already.

Robert death

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

Certainly Varys had once been young. Ned doubted that he had ever been innocent. "You mention children. Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenerys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once."

"Alas," said Varys. "At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown. But I shall do what I can, my lord. With your leave." He bowed and vanished down the steps, his soft-soled slippers whispering against the stone as he made his descent.

But then Eddard is captured, and he feels the failure of broken promises. Even though Jon is safe. It’s Daenerys that Eddard failed to protect, not Jon.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

 

 

 

 

The Tower of Joy/ The Tower of Sorrow = Queen’s Crown Tower…..

Spoiler

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

Daenerys the Dayne Heiress.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

Ashara Dayne had a daughter that Eddard had taken? And yet, at Queen’s Crown Tower, there was possibly twins. Jocelyn, raised by her aunt as Daenerys was raised by her aunt, Allyria? But there was also Gael who was raised by her uncle Jaehaerys I, as our good Princess Val was raised by her unlce Mance Rayder.

 

Val the Wildling Princess is the sister to Daenerys and twin born at the Tower of Joy.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

It was warm within. A small fire burned beneath the smoke holes, and a brazier smouldered near the pile of furs where Dalla lay, pale and sweating. Her sister was holding her hand. Val, Jon remembered. "I was sorry when Jarl fell," he told her.

Val looked at him with pale grey eyes. "He always climbed too fast." She was as fair as he'd remembered, slender, full-breasted, graceful even at rest, with high sharp cheekbones and a thick braid of honey-colored hair that fell to her waist.

Fitting much of the description of Ashara Dayne, except for the eyes, Val got the eyes of the Starks. While Daenerys got her mother’s eyes.

 

So Val the Wildling Princess and Mance Rayder? Yep, Mance, Abel, Bael the Bard who plucked the Stark Maid that was Lyanna Stark, and faced his own son Jon 15 years later in a battle at the Wall as King Beyond the Wall. Jon Snow, Like Bael’s son, was raised by his Uncle as a Stark.

 

 

The Dishonor of Harrenhal?

Spoiler

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said . . ."

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie . . . and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

 

 

Mance Rayder, Ranger in the Nights Watch and Harrenhal. The Mystery Knight.

Spoiler

 

Firstly, Mance served in the Night’s Watch at least until Jon Snow was around 5 years old.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. "When you were a brother of the Watch . . ."

"Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."

"I remember," said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wall walk, yes . . . "You swore not to tell."

There are multiple wandering crows in the watch at any time.

Conwy

Gueren

Yoren

Dareon

 

There was a Black brother at Harrenhal.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

Mance knows all the songs north and south of the wall.

There was a competition of singers at the Tourney Feast.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Yes. Tell it."

"Five days of jousting were planned," she said. "There was a great seven-sided mêlée as well, and archery and axe-throwing, a horse race and tourney of singers . . ."

Benjen never met Mance, as Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during Roberts Rebellion. And Mance served till Jon was 5, so Benjen joined after Jon was 5 at never saw Mance in his life to know if Mance was the Black Brother at Harrenhal.

 

The Mystery Knight

Repeatedly referred to by Meera as a male.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

 

Quote

"Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he  challenged."

Quote

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

Has a booming voice

A missing Stark would have gone noticed.

A missing Mance would not have.

 

So Val and Daenerys were the children born at the Tower of Joy to Eddard Stark and his southern Lady Ashara Dayne, a mirror to Alysanne hooking up with a Stark and having twins at Queen's Crown. While Jon was born to Lyanna and Mance in the Crypts of Winterfell as a mirror to Bael the Bard who faced his son in battle.

 

 

Check out part 3 for Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna and a closer look at him as this will be leading in the end to his son and Varys, and the Tragedy of Summerhall. in part 5. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150241-part-3-rhaegar/

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Val the Wildling Princess is the sister to Daenerys and twin born at the Tower of Joy.

Fitting much of the description of Ashara Dayne, except for the eyes, Val got the eyes of the Starks. While Daenerys got her mother’s eyes.

Excuse me, but what description of Ashara Dayne, exactly? Because there isn't much of it, and the intersection of Val and Ashara seems to contain of two generalizations: "tall" and "beautiful". Other than that, wrong eyes, wrong hair (Ashara's were black) - and that's more or less all that we know of her. About Val we know specifics like cheekbones (what cheekbones did Ashara have?), or breasts (ditto). Val has more in common with, for example, the Tully girls (just read the descriptions of young Lysa), than with Ashara Dayne.

And, going back to eyes: Val doesn't have "Stark eyes". No Stark is described with "pale grey" eyes (correct me if I'm wrong) - that unique feature is shared only by Ser Mandon Moore, Lord Bolton and his natural son Ramsay. Work that into your theory.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Benjen never met Mance, as Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during Roberts Rebellion. And Mance served till Jon was 5, so Benjen joined after Jon was 5 at never saw Mance in his life to know if Mance was the Black Brother at Harrenhal.

Has it been stated somewhere in the books?

[kissdbyfire]

Ashara and Val cannot possibly be twins. Ashara would be in her thirties, and Val is much younger. Also the colouring is all wrong as stated above.

major reading comprehension fail on my part, apologies. Still don't see it though.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Val was not raised by Mance. 

Val is about 19-22, and has honey blonde hair and blue-grey eyes, of which Danaerys has neither and Danaerys is what, 5ish years younger than Val. 

This sounds like it is based on that Order if the green hand video, which is soooo inaccurate on so many levels. 

[The Fattest Leech]

29 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Excuse me, but what description of Ashara Dayne, exactly? Because there isn't much of it, and the intersection of Val and Ashara seems to contain of two generalizations: "tall" and "beautiful". Other than that, wrong eyes, wrong hair (Ashara's were black) - and that's more or less all that we know of her. About Val we know specifics like cheekbones (what cheekbones did Ashara have?), or breasts (ditto). Val has more in common with, for example, the Tully girls (just read the descriptions of young Lysa), than with Ashara Dayne.

And, going back to eyes: Val doesn't have "Stark eyes". No Stark is described with "pale grey" eyes (correct me if I'm wrong) - that unique feature is shared only by Ser Mandon Moore, Lord Bolton and his natural son Ramsay. Work that into your theory.

Has it been stated somewhere in the books?

Val’s eyes are first grey, then blue. So blue-grey dependingon the light and clothes as GRRM so often does seems to fit better than “Stark” eyes. And yeah, I’ve been through this whole cheekbone thing with another poster before. Sansa also has high cheekbones, so that is out. Plus what you asked about Ashara’s cheekbones. If anything, Val shares more in common with the Mallisters than anyone else South of the wall if we go by generalities. 

[kissdbyfire]

So. I have now read the OP start to finish a couple of times. But I'm not sure why you are making the connections you are making. Loads of quotes, sometimes the same quote twice, but little else. You don't elaborate on the points you're trying to make, and some things are confusing.

For instance, you claim Mance never met Benjen. You also state Mance was the wandering crow on a recruiting mission at Harrenhal, and Benjen was there. It's liking you have an idea or 12 and pulled out a bunch of quotes and filled in the blanks w/ stuff from the Wiki. 

Another example, where is the idea that Val is not only Ashara's daughter, but Dany's twin sister coming from? What made you think that? Where are the clues pointing towards Val of all people being Dany's twin sister? 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So. I have now read the OP start to finish a couple of times. But I'm not sure why you are making the connections you are making. Loads of quotes, sometimes the same quote twice, but little else. You don't elaborate on the points you're trying to make, and some things are confusing.

For instance, you claim Mance never met Benjen. You also state Mance was the wandering crow on a recruiting mission at Harrenhal, and Benjen was there. It's liking you have an idea or 12 and pulled out a bunch of quotes and filled in the blanks w/ stuff from the Wiki. 

Another example, where is the idea that Val is not only Ashara's daughter, but Dany's twin sister coming from? What made you think that? Where are the clues pointing towards Val of all people being Dany's twin sister? 

My impression as well. Massive carpet bombing of quotes, but nary a comment why are those quotes relevant. Mighty difficult to discuss w. the opponent who's reluctant to disclose what his argument is.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val’s eyes are first grey, then blue. So blue-grey dependingon the light and clothes as GRRM so often does seems to fit better than “Stark” eyes.

That wasn't what I was referring. "Pale grey" is much less common than just "grey" - unless my search missed something, it's limited to only three other people beside Val, and those people aren't Starks.

[Nowy Tends]

So the latest fashion is “everyone is a secret Stark”?

[Kandrax]

We need sixth book.

[zandru]

4 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

So the latest fashion is “everyone is a secret Stark”?

AND a secret Targ! It's been Ice&Fire all the way through.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Excuse me, but what description of Ashara Dayne, exactly? Because there isn't much of it, and the intersection of Val and Ashara seems to contain of two generalizations: "tall" and "beautiful". Other than that, wrong eyes, wrong hair (Ashara's were black) - and that's more or less all that we know of her. About Val we know specifics like cheekbones (what cheekbones did Ashara have?), or breasts (ditto). Val has more in common with, for example, the Tully girls (just read the descriptions of young Lysa), than with Ashara Dayne.

And, going back to eyes: Val doesn't have "Stark eyes". No Stark is described with "pale grey" eyes (correct me if I'm wrong) - that unique feature is shared only by Ser Mandon Moore, Lord Bolton and his natural son Ramsay. Work that into your theory.

Has it been stated somewhere in the books?

It's been out for a while and i find it funny i have to quote sooooo much stuff for people supposedly so familiar with the books can't recall GRRM's description for an artist that's been out for a while. Then when i put quotes you all require a thesis for each quote even though the important part is underlined in bold. Then you all complain about to many quotes lmao

This is why people dont bother trying to please every one on the internet. You guys complain about anything lmao

Val has changing colored eyes like Eddard Stark. She has grey eyes like the starks are known to have. Im sure there is shades of grey as Targaryens had shades of Purple. That's a weak argument against.

And if any one ready part 1 and paid attention. Val looks like Ashara and Alysanne. A mix of them. Not exactly like either. And we know blonde hair exist in house Dayne as her brother had blonde hair. 

Plus this is all drawn from the mirror of Alysanne and her twins at Queen's Crown Tower. It's help if you didnt' cherry pick things to nit pick and actually focused on the whole thread. 

And LMAO this is what i mean. Yes, it's stated by Mance that Benjen doens't know his face and he doubts Eddard would remember some black brother he met at winterfell long ago. 

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val was not raised by Mance. 

Val is about 19-22, and has honey blonde hair and blue-grey eyes, of which Danaerys has neither and Danaerys is what, 5ish years younger than Val. 

This sounds like it is based on that Order if the green hand video, which is soooo inaccurate on so many levels. 

And where are you getting that from? I cant' find a single age reference or calculation on her. So that would be cool to see

 

Might wanna watch there stuff again, way different lol are you paying attention to any bodies theories or you just tune out after something you dont agree with? lol

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

My impression as well. Massive carpet bombing of quotes, but nary a comment why are those quotes relevant. Mighty difficult to discuss w. the opponent who's reluctant to disclose what his argument is.

Again, it's explained. And you guys complain about to many quotes and seem to need every thing walked through bit by bit and even then turn around and complain that it's too long. Your arguments are weak. Im not here to convince you least of all, nor a couple other overtly vocal people who make the same arguments and their views are well enough known and just go on under bridging it. This is for the many people that do read and follow and seem to pick up on it all just fine.  Though i do enjoy reading a couple of your guys' same responses and seeing you all still pop up  gotta have haters too 

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, zandru said:

AND a secret Targ! It's been Ice&Fire all the way through.

Might wanna recheck that. Dragons were a late addition to a game of thrones yo. Also the first chapter is what set the books, you know, the one where they find the wolves and one is separated from the pack. Dany having dragons was a late addition, she was not. Its a story of Starks

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So. I have now read the OP start to finish a couple of times. But I'm not sure why you are making the connections you are making. Loads of quotes, sometimes the same quote twice, but little else. You don't elaborate on the points you're trying to make, and some things are confusing.

For instance, you claim Mance never met Benjen. You also state Mance was the wandering crow on a recruiting mission at Harrenhal, and Benjen was there. It's liking you have an idea or 12 and pulled out a bunch of quotes and filled in the blanks w/ stuff from the Wiki. 

Another example, where is the idea that Val is not only Ashara's daughter, but Dany's twin sister coming from? What made you think that? Where are the clues pointing towards Val of all people being Dany's twin sister? 

Part 1. With part 2. Explaining how Bael and his son mirror Mance and Jon, while Eddard and Ashara and their twins, mirrors Alysanne and her Stark and their twins. Which caused the Dance of the Dragons. Thats why this is 5 parts. Some other mirrors in the story (and there is alot) are in part 4 i believe. Showing that the mirroring of stories or events is something grrm has worked in many times in different ways. 

Hence the quote in one about history not repeating, but it does rhyme.

Trust, i know this is all new ideas though so i dont expect people to be warm to them since they already have some deep rooted ideas of their own or of others. Most based on others ideas 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And where are you getting that from? I cant' find a single age reference or calculation on her. So that would be cool to see

Give me a minute to find it. Ygritte was 19 and Val is just above Ygritte's age.

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Might wanna watch there stuff again, way different lol are you paying attention to any bodies theories or you just tune out after something you dont agree with? lol

Actually, I am over an hour in to their  2hour+ video they put up yesterday. A good example of why I can't take them seriously is because of things like "Osha is confusing". I do give them a try, as I do other theorists. Some are better than others and so far, no theory they put forth makes sense because they fill in the history holes with their own (head) canon. And when they can't come up with something, they just call that person a liar. Now, I do agree that the Andals aren't so great, but now they apparently have a theory coming up that claims Nymeria is also a liar???

I am going to be seriously disappointed if in book 7 George has a character break the fifth wall, turn to the reader and say, "everything you read in books 1-6, and all of the ancillary books, are a lie."

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So. I have now read the OP start to finish a couple of times. But I'm not sure why you are making the connections you are making. Loads of quotes, sometimes the same quote twice, but little else. You don't elaborate on the points you're trying to make, and some things are confusing.

For instance, you claim Mance never met Benjen. You also state Mance was the wandering crow on a recruiting mission at Harrenhal, and Benjen was there. It's liking you have an idea or 12 and pulled out a bunch of quotes and filled in the blanks w/ stuff from the Wiki. 

Another example, where is the idea that Val is not only Ashara's daughter, but Dany's twin sister coming from? What made you think that? Where are the clues pointing towards Val of all people being Dany's twin sister? 

Part 1 is the set up with Alysanne and Bael.

2- the mirror of them on Dany and Jon. 

3- What Rhaegar was up to then. 

4- more mirror reinforcing idea.

5.- Varys and Aegon and the connection to House Targaryen.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Give me a minute to find it. Ygritte was 19 and Val is just above Ygritte's age.

Actually, I am over an hour in to their  2hour+ video they put up yesterday. A good example of why I can't take them seriously is because of things like "Osha is confusing". I do give them a try, as I do other theorists. Some are better than others and so far, no theory they put forth makes sense because they fill in the history holes with their own (head) canon. And when they can't come up with something, they just call that person a liar. Now, I do agree that the Andals aren't so great, but now they apparently have a theory coming up that claims Nymeria is also a liar???

I am going to be seriously disappointed if in book 7 George has a character break the fifth wall, turn to the reader and say, "everything you read in books 1-6, and all of the ancillary books, are a lie."

Haha well ill agree that i dont see eye to eye with some of theres as mine is clearly different, though i do like there willingness to look and analyze for them selves instead of jumping on bandwagons. 

An age for her would be interesting though as like i said i couldn't find one. Though there may be a year or two gap between the children and may not be twins as Jocelyn is earliest born by 61ac and Gael in 62 Ac. There is an over lap at 62 Ac but an on 1 year difference is possibly still there. 

Like i was telling Lynn, this is based on mirrors to Other events. So i may have a detail off in part 1. of this theory. My ideas on Alysanne seem to be new so i dont have anything else to work off of to double check ideas always. Other than here where people more are reconstructive than constructive.  

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Haha well ill agree that i dont see eye to eye with some of theres as mine is clearly different, though i do like there willingness to look and analyze for them selves instead of jumping on bandwagons. 

The more I watch these theorists who don't have any dialogue with other readers, the more "off" they are. It seems a checks and balances works best because there is no way any one person can remember everything in this set of tomes, and we each come with different backgrounds of knowledge that can be added (or used to clarify another's point). Even Ran failed trivia at some Con's

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

An age for her would be interesting though as like i said i couldn't find one. Though there may be a year or two gap between the children and may not be twins as Jocelyn is earliest born by 61ac and Gael in 62 Ac. There is an over lap at 62 Ac but an on 1 year difference is possibly still there. 

Like i was telling Lynn, this is based on mirrors to Other events. So i may have a detail off in part 1. of this theory. My ideas on Alysanne seem to be new so i dont have anything else to work off of to double check ideas always. Other than here where people more are reconstructive than constructive.  

I was only able to skim the part of Alysanne because she has always intrigued me. I can't say that I can remember all of what you posited at the moment, but I feel that there were some gaps that I did want to ask about... but that will have to be later.