House Frey should be respected (part 2)

[Kandrax]

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I hear this a lot but not once is Aerys actually called a Tyrant in the series. Both Aegon and Maegor were, but Aerys not. The fandom have labelled him as such, but it seems less clear that the people of Westeros do. 

I believe that only bad thing that he did to smallfolk is trying to blow up King's landing.

[Kandrax]

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

They were not bound. The Frey men obviously saw how dumb it was, Cat herself saw it was not the smartest as she saw most of her party killed on the way to the Vale and we saw the King ordering Ned to release his brother-in-law. 

Had some of Frey men told Cat: "M'lady, this man is son of Lord Tywin Lannister, it would be bad for the Riverlands if you arrest him", how would she react?

[Kandrax]

27 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Do you think Manderly fears them when he insults them in Winterfell (Little Walder incident)?

If you ask me, that was pretty dumb move.

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, Bullrout said:

I don't understand this preoccupation with respect.  Walder Frey terminated the Stark's rebellion, brought peace to the Riverlands, and made his family wealthier.  People fear them now.  Manderly was so scared of their spies from even within his own house.  Shouldn't that tell you how much influence the Freys have now.  It should.  Manderly had to be careful in killing the Freys because even that far north they can still hurt him.  Being disliked is not the same as having no respect for someone.  The Freys are disliked but a lot of people but they also fear the Freys.  That fat seal in the north will get his just desserts for forcing his host and his fellow guest to eat human remains.

The Freys are not wealthier from the RW. They got no gold, nor any marriage that made them wealthy. Manderly was not scared of the Freys spies it was a Lannister bastard who was his Maester that he didn’t trust. He murdered three Freys and fed them to their kin while openly mocking them, Manderly ain’t scared of them. 

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The Freys are not wealthier from the RW. They got no gold, nor any marriage that made them wealthy.

They got Riverrun (there would certainly be some gold reserves in the Riverlands capital), they are in control of the Darry lands. They are wealthier for taking part in the Red Wedding. Whether they will be able to hang onto that extra wealth in the future is another topic, but they absolutely did become wealthier due to the Red Wedding. 

10 hours ago, The Wolves said:

 

Manderly was not scared of the Freys spies it was a Lannister bastard who was his Maester that he didn’t trust.

It was also Frey spies. 

Soon I must return to the feast to toast my friends of Frey," Manderly continued. "They watch me, ser. Day and night their eyes are on me, noses sniffing for some whiff of treachery. You saw them, the arrogant Ser Jared and his nephew Rhaegar, that smirking worm who wears a dragon's name. Behind them both stands Symond, clinking coins. That one has bought and paid for several of my servants and two of my knights. One of his wife's handmaids has found her way into the bed of my own fool. 

10 hours ago, The Wolves said:

 

He murdered three Freys and fed them to their kin while openly mocking them, Manderly ain’t scared of them. 

He was at White Harbor, that is why he went to such great lengths to not look culpable for their deaths. 

But I'd agree that Wyman no longer is fearful of the Freys or for that matter his own life, I think he realises that whatever happens he is not surviving Winterfell and seems to be happy to go down like a warrior standing up to the Freys he so loathes. 

[The Commentator]

12 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The Freys are not wealthier from the RW. They got no gold, nor any marriage that made them wealthy. Manderly was not scared of the Freys spies it was a Lannister bastard who was his Maester that he didn’t trust. He murdered three Freys and fed them to their kin while openly mocking them, Manderly ain’t scared of them. 

Gain can be measured in other ways besides gold.  Walder Frey got his revenge on Hoster Tully.  He took the man's property, wed his daughter to Edmure, and shortened Robb by a few inches.  The war ended abruptly and saved the lives of his remaining small folk.  He got rid of Walda.  House Frey married into the new high house of the north.  It was a gain compared to what they could have lost if they had stuck with the boy who  never respected them in the first place.  

[Apoplexy]

5 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Gain can be measured in other ways besides gold.  Walder Frey got his revenge on Hoster Tully.  He took the man's property, wed his daughter to Edmure, and shortened Robb by a few inches.  The war ended abruptly and saved the lives of his remaining small folk.  He got rid of Walda.  House Frey married into the new high house of the north.  It was a gain compared to what they could have lost if they had stuck with the boy who  never respected them in the first place.  

The Freys aren't really competent enough to hold on to the gains they received from turning against the Starks, In the long run, they probably would've been better off without so many enemies seeking revenge against them, which is their current situation,

[Bernie Mac]

27 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The Freys aren't really competent enough to hold on to the gains they received from turning against the Starks, In the long run,

How exactly do you figure that out? The Freys, in 600 years, have gone from petty lords to the most powerful House in the Riverlands, before the Red Wedding they were the Tully's most powerful vassals. 

The Freys are clearly competent. The idea that they are not is actually puzzling. 

27 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

 

they probably would've been better off without so many enemies seeking revenge against them, which is their current situation,

Just the North and some of the Riverlands, including the bandits aligned with Lady Stoneheart. 

The North would have been their enemy as the Twins is slap band in the middle of Robb's borders. It makes more sense for Walder to try to remove Robb and replace him with a Northern ruler who is more sympatico with his goals, and Roose was just that, 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

35 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

they probably would've been better off without so many enemies seeking revenge against them, which is their current situation,

 

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

Just the North and some of the Riverlands, including the bandits aligned with Lady Stoneheart.

And the Faith of the Seven.

And, last time we could check, the Crown, the nobility of the Vale, or Stannis' faction also had nothing but contempt for the Freys.

But, on the plus side, they (as far as we can tell) haven't made many enemies in Dorne. So they have that going on for them.

[Apoplexy]

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

How exactly do you figure that out? The Freys, in 600 years, have gone from petty lords to the most powerful House in the Riverlands, before the Red Wedding they were the Tully's most powerful vassals. 

The Freys are clearly competent. The idea that they are not is actually puzzling.

Before the RW, the Freys made their money by charging people to cross their bridge. After the RW, they were granted Riverrun, where they couldn't negotiate with the Blackfish and Jaime had to intervene. I don't see them holding Riverrun for too long.

 

22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 Just the North and some of the Riverlands, including the bandits aligned with Lady Stoneheart. 

The North would have been their enemy as the Twins is slap band in the middle of Robb's borders. It makes more sense for Walder to try to remove Robb and replace him with a Northern ruler who is more sympatico with his goals, and Roose was just that, 

Well, they've been hanged, baked into pies and murdered (I haven't read any of the Winds chapters, so I don't know the exact details of the Mercy chapter). That's a lot of enemies. The north wouldn't start exacting revenge against the Freys had they not killed the Starks.

And it does indeed make sense for the Freys to align with the Boltons. But that doesn't make the RW any less repugnant and cowardly. They chose the underhanded way to get rid of the Starks. And then couldn't even deal with the consequences of their actions.

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

check, the Crown, the nobility of the Vale, or Stannis' faction also had nothing but contempt for the Freys.

 

The crown meh, the Freys are tools to be used. So long as it benifits them they'll continue their support. Cersi has(foolishly) suggested executing some Freys to appease the masses true. Stannis doesn't really seem to be upset at the Red wedding; only really Davos; but ultimately who cares what the crazy heretic trying (and most importantly failing) to usurp his nephew's throne. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, Apoplexy said:

Before the RW, the Freys made their money by charging people to cross their bridge. After the RW, they were granted Riverrun, where they couldn't negotiate with the Blackfish and Jaime had to intervene. I don't see them holding Riverrun for too long.

Jamie couldn't negotiate with the blackfish. Neither could Tywin or really anyone on the lion's side. Jamie had to blackmail Edmure into commanding the castle open its gates.

 

2 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Well, they've been hanged, baked into pies and murdered (I haven't read any of the Winds chapters, so I don't know the exact details of the Mercy chapter). That's a lot of enemies. The north wouldn't start exacting revenge against the Freys had they not killed the Starks.

 

The BWB hanged some but really there not as influenceal as they'd once been and even then there power was really concentrated in one specific spot in the Riverland. The rest was Manderly and his level of support we don't really know about but doubtless he'd at least some from the northern houses.

[Apoplexy]

15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The crown meh, the Freys are tools to be used. So long as it benifits them they'll continue their support. Cersi has(foolishly) suggested executing some Freys to appease the masses true. Stannis doesn't really seem to be upset at the Red wedding; only really Davos; but ultimately who cares what the crazy heretic trying (and most importantly failing) to usurp his nephew's throne.

But with the way the Freys are handling things in the riverlands, they probably wont be beneficial to the crown for too long. And the Vale and/or Stannis and/or anyone else probably wouldn't endeavor diplomacy with the Freys as they really cannot be trusted after the RW.

[Apoplexy]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jamie couldn't negotiate with the blackfish. Neither could Tywin or really anyone on the lion's side. Jamie had to blackmail Edmure into commanding the castle open its gates.

Exactly. He got the job done one way or another, without bloodshed. Something the Freys couldn't have done.

15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The BWB hanged some but really there not as influenceal as they'd once been and even then there power was really concentrated in one specific spot in the Riverland. The rest was Manderly and his level of support we don't really know about but doubtless he'd at least some from the northern houses.

None of this would've happened if the Freys hadn't betrayed the Starks. They weren't competent/powerful enough to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[Jon Fossoway]

Just can't understand why we are piling up so many posts. The current Frey, descended from Walder and his many wives, will get slapped, and their family head, while cunning, has a death sentence. The author is hinting it from different sides: Hosteen in the north and his failing army, Black Walder and his enthropic influence inside the family. A Frey hunter wandering the riverlands... I can see a full fledged family war when Walder dies too. For me, the question is who will be spared. 

I don't believe our author made up the Freys for us to look for respectable traits. At most, he planted some Freys that were 'decent', in a sea of ugly, treacherous and stupid bunch. IMO, the Freys are made to be despised. The riverlords despise them, Great Houses still look down on them, and most of the readers hates them. It's just crystal clear for me. You can look for some respectable traits that are respectable to you (as I have), but don't say they should, in general, by all people, be respected, because they just aren't built to be respected.

[Kandrax]

55 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Stannis doesn't really seem to be upset at the Red wedding

Maybe because of his misotheism.

[Bernie Mac]

54 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

And, last time we could check, the Crown, the nobility of the Vale, or Stannis' faction also had nothing but contempt for the Freys.

Those people had contempt for the upjumped 600 year old House before the Red Wedding. What I commented on was them making enemies, none of them are now the Frey's enemies because of the Red Wedding. In fact Stannis wished that Robb would die, who is to say that the gods granted his wish and had Walder act on his wish?

 

44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Before the RW, the Freys made their money by charging people to cross their bridge.

They also made their money from the huge amounts of lands they own between the Green and Blue forks in the Riverlands. Their lands are huge. 

The Freys are looked down on because they have another revenue stream to other Riverlords, something that still make money in Winter, but that is not the only way they make money. 

44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

After the RW, they were granted Riverrun, where they couldn't negotiate with the Blackfish and Jaime had to intervene. I don't see them holding Riverrun for too long.

Emmon did not want them attacking his holdings. He was happy to wait. Ryman and Daven wanted to attack. 

Jaime, who as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and the King's armies took charge and got a peaceful resolution but the Blackfish would have had to give in eventually. 

44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Well, they've been hanged, baked into pies and murdered (I haven't read any of the Winds chapters, so I don't know the exact details of the Mercy chapter). That's a lot of enemies. The north wouldn't start exacting revenge against the Freys had they not killed the Starks.

The Greatjon wanted them dead as soon as Robb married Jeyne and the Freys left the Westerlands. 

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."

"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me, and Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ."

"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you."

 

The Twins, being in the middle of Robb's two kingdoms would not be allowed to stand as a neutral faction or even a crown faction. Robb would have to attack them. 

 

44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

And it does indeed make sense for the Freys to align with the Boltons. But that doesn't make the RW any less repugnant and cowardly.

Sure. While I think there are reasons that justify the Frey's actions I do think it was a reprehensible and cowardly action (as well as pragmatic) . 

44 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

None of this would've happened if the Freys hadn't betrayed the Starks. They weren't competent/powerful enough to deal with the consequences of their actions

None of this would have happened if Robb didnt betray the Freys. 

Not sure what competency has to do with this? 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

IMO, the Freys are made to be despised. The riverlords despise them,

That is not actually true, not before the Red Wedding. Hoster Tully hated them, but look at the many Houses the Frey's married into in the Riverlands. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

The Twins, being in the middle of Robb's two kingdoms would not be allowed to stand as a neutral faction or even a crown faction. Robb would have to attack them. 

Wow greatJon really really isn't honorble is he? First, threatening to go home and abandon his liege lord over his house's place in the upcoming battle, now suggesting to again outright murder the Freys for going home after Robb broke his agreement.

 

56 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

But with the way the Freys are handling things in the riverlands, they probably wont be beneficial to the crown for too long. And the Vale and/or Stannis and/or anyone else probably wouldn't endeavor diplomacy with the Freys as they really cannot be trusted after the RW.

So long as they have something that'd be more easily bargained for then stolen outright they will be negotiated with. The Freys aren't responsible for the Riverlands; that would be little finger. The Freys proved loyal to the crown-to turn their back on them for if they are accosted for the red wedding would be much a mistake as handing over Gregore would be to the Martells-your followers would be reluctant to follow your controversial orders if you have a history of selling out those who apparently did(to be clear lord Frey had cooked up this sceme and offered it to Tywin but still).

[Jon Fossoway]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

That is not actually true, not before the Red Wedding. Hoster Tully hated them, but look at the many Houses the Frey's married into in the Riverlands. 

 

Yes, surely Walder had some excellent ways to push his sons into prominent families in the past, but that was before the Red Wedding. During Jaime's travels through the riverlands, one can feel the hostility Freys provoke on others, especially in the war councils. Can't quote anything (since my books are in spanish) but I recall the council held by Riverrun, where (I think) Edwyn is present and another Frey had to stand up for him, since Piper or Vance was directly insulting him. Sure, these were Stark loyalists, but overall, there's a turning point for them after the Red Wedding, where all their 'decent' feats go out the window. I can't think of a way for them to come back from that one. Everyone wants a piece of them, and that process of 'cannibalism' is already underway in Dance

[The Commentator]

23 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The Freys aren't really competent enough to hold on to the gains they received from turning against the Starks, In the long run, they probably would've been better off without so many enemies seeking revenge against them, which is their current situation,

You and I see the Freys differently.  In my eyes, the Freys are very practical and competent.  They made their money the old fashioned way, they earned it.  They don't preoccupy themselves with battle glories.  They avoid wars whenever they could but their less-competent and prideful liege lord Hoster keep dragging them into it.  It's not Walder's fault that Lyanna ran off to break her oaths to Robert.  It's even less his fault that Hoster agreed to join the rebellion to get rid of a soiled daughter.  I hope you can see why Walder would have little respect for Hoster Tully.  Hoster's ambition to move his family up the social ladder got a lot of Rivermen killed.  Fast forward to the future and Tully's daughter makes trouble with the Lannisters.  Tully's son-in-law commits and admits to treason.  Tully's grandson starts a rebellion.  Tully's grandson starts knocking on his doorstep and tells him to cooperate in his rebellion or he'll attack.  

There is no evidence whatsoever to label the Freys incompetent.  If anything, Walder Frey is a skilled businessman who has done a good job of running the family business and building his wealth despite being hampered by his foolish liege lord, Hoster Tully.  The Freys never started any of those wars.  Their foolish and proud high lord was the one who dragged them into a fight that they had no quarrel with.  So Walder wants to avoid sticking to the losing side and possibly losing his wealth.  It's hard to blame the man. 

I'm not saying Walder is the most honorable of men.  Walder Frey is no Willem Darry.  Willem Darry was an honorable man who remained loyal to Prince Viserys and Princess Daenerys even if it costed him everything.  Willem Darry is the paragon of honor and duty.  Walder Frey is not.  But that doesn't make Walder incompetent, nor foolish.  He just puts family safety and business practicality ahead of honor.  I don't admire Walder Frey but I can't fault him for doing the red wedding after all the foolish things Robb did.

The Red Wedding preserved the Frey fortunes and gained them a castle.  Maybe they won't be able to hold on to it and maybe they will.  We just don't know.  But for now it looks like a winning move for the Freys and the only thing we can be sure of is now.