House Frey should be respected (part 2)

[TPTWP Timett]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would Dany or Aegon take away their castle or the entirety of their lands? I don't think they'd approve of their actions but I also don't think they are going to be judging all the Houses of the realm on what they have been up to in the 20 years the Targaryens have been out of power or the actions, as terrible as they are, carried out during a civil war. Walder is likely to be dead before either secure the Throne. 

The Freys broke a custom made by the Gods, their souls will face punishment, their peers will be less likely to deal with them, their marriage dowries will become more expensive and only with Houses lower than them and should a Northern host be strong enough to attack they will face little support from other neutral Houses to help them. But I have seen no one in the South, not amongst the Faith or the other Riverland Houses, who have suggested they lose everything. 

There seems to be this train of thought that no matter who becomes the next monarch, that they will go out of their way to punish all the Stark enemies. The only likelihood of that happening is if a Stark becomes King and has both the influence and support to wipe out Houses on that level. I just don't see that happening. The realm, should it even survive intact this coming Winter, is not really going to be a position for these kind of actions. It is going to be too busy recovering. 

I don't think it's likely but I do think of all the Riverland houses they are the most likely to be disposed. Think about it they are everyone's enemy now. I think it was morally wrong and while maybe not true guest rights even the the soliders outside where wronged. My personal opinion is you can't trust a Frey but they get stuff done no denying that.

[Adam Yozza]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would Dany or Aegon take away their castle or the entirety of their lands?

Why? How about because it's the easiest friggin' PR move in the world handed to them on a silver platter. Everyone hates the Frey's. The Vale; one of the only untouched regions in Westeros; the North, the rest of the Riverlands, the Faith and the Tyrell's all hate the Frey's. If Dany and Aegon; who don't even like the Starks; roll in and punish the house; either by taking everything from them or just reducing them to what they had before the Red Wedding and executing one or two; in the name of justice and honour and all that, they instantly win over a good portion of Westeros.

Now, you can try and deny this if you want but even Cersei; their ally; considers sacrificing a couple of them in an attempt to appease the faith.

[Bernie Mac]

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Why? How about because it's the easiest friggin' PR move in the world handed to them on a silver platter.

eh? Since when do monarchs come up with marketing strategies?

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Everyone hates the Frey's.

Well hate is a strong word. It is more accurate to say that no one any longer respects the Freys. 

But more importantly there are many, many Houses who are related to the Freys. Kinslaying is not something supported and killing all Freys or even stripping them of their lands does little for them. 

Removing prominent Freys makes more sense. Reducing their lands also. Maybe even knocking them down to a knightly House. Punishments that they would accept. But removing from power only forces a pointless war, especially as there is not a chance that Walder Frey will still be even alive when the new monarch is established as ruler. 

 

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

The Vale; one of the only untouched regions in Westeros;

They don't hate. No one is pushing for war against the Freys in the Vale. 

The Freys actually have strong ties to the Freys. 

• Walder's first wife was a Royce and Arwood's wife is a Royce. 
• Stevron's third and final wife is a Waynwood, their only son married the only other Hardyng we know in the series and their children, with nicknames like 'the sweet' and 'fair' seem far more likeable than some of the Freys we have been exposed to (notably Ryman and his children)
• The late Geremy Frey married a Waynwood and his two children are the wards with Lady Waynwood, they would have been raised with Harry the Heir and more than likely played no part in the Red Wedding

Given Harry the Heir, the Waynwood and Royces connection to House Frey I can't see them in favor of them being wiped out, not when they can have their own Frey candidates take over.  Stevron's third son, Walton and his children, seem a far better fit than Ryman and his sons. 

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

the North,

Sure. But why would Dany or Aegon be in a rush to please them considering what that they helped overthrow her father? 

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

the rest of the Riverlands,

The Riverland is split. 

• Littlefinger truly does not care
• Riverrun is not ruled by Freys, more importantly the heirs of Riverrun are the grandsons of Lord Darry, a staunch loyalist of the Crown and Genna's second son seems to be named after Dany's father figure Ser Willem Darry
• Darry seems to be controlled by Freys and tAmerie's mother is another daughter of the late Lord Darry who fought and was punished for supporting the Crown
• Lord Charlton is a vassal and may have been with the Freys at the Red Wedding
• Lord Vypren is married to a Frey
• Hosteen is married to a Hawick, his son fighting to defend the Hawick lands (Saltpans) with some of his Haigh cousins

 

These Houses are unclear

• House Bracken lost no one, were one of the first to jump ship and spent the last 6 months of the war fighting for the Crown
• Garse Goodbrook(leaving two children), fought and died for the Freys in the Red Wedding. The current Lord Goodbrook might not want his nephews/cousins punished
• Two Frey's are married to women of House Paege, with one young Frey serving as Ser Daemon's squire

These Houses would definitely want some kind of retribution

• Mallister, son hostage castle taken
• Blackwood, son killed
• Piper, son hostage and nephews and cousins as well, possibly some slain

But the question is how much retribution. Would Lord Blackwood want all the children and grandchildren of Alyssa Blackwood punished for what Walder did?

Would Mallister, who's son was spared, want them to die and lose everything once Walder is already dead?

 

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

 

the Faith

The current High Septon is on board with punishment, we have heard nothing of them wanting them wiped out. 

Fun fact, before the High Sparrow took the position by force Luceon Frey was one of the favourites to be appointed. If something happened to the High Sparrow he'd be in the running again. 

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

and the Tyrell's all hate the Frey's

Have the Tyrells even mentioned them?

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

 

. If Dany and Aegon; who don't even like the Starks; roll in and punish the house; either by taking everything from them or just reducing them to what they had before the Red Wedding and executing one or two; in the name of justice and honour and all that, they instantly win over a good portion of Westeros.

Sure, I agree with the latter. I imagine some of the Frey's would accept that as well. But they'd go to war for the former and new monarchs, as Robert and even Aegon I, have to be quite cautious to risk losing everything and appearing vulnerable so soon after winning the Crown. 

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Now, you can try and deny this if you want but even Cersei; their ally; considers sacrificing a couple of them in an attempt to appease the faith.

I have not denied this. Please don't put words into my mouth, I have been more than clear with what I have wrote. Making up arguments to fit your is just weak. I have claimed that no new monarch would have good enough reason to go to war in an effort to strip everything from the Freys for something they did under a different monarch. 

 

 

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Everyone hates the Frey's.

Really, even Brave companions?

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Riverland is split.      

You have forgoten to mention Vances.

[Adam Yozza]

12 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Really, even Brave companions?

Fair play.

[Blackfish Tully]

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

• Littlefinger truly does not care
•  

 

I would be careful of stating what Littlefinger does and does not care about . He keeps his cards close to his vest and don't forget he is Lord of The Riverlands even though the Freys are acting as if they are . His best way to get on the good side of the Riverlords would be by  knocking the Freys down a peg or two and don't forget that Cat was the love of his life and the Freys killed her . 

[Kandrax]

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Cat was the love of his life and the Freys killed her . 

This depend whether he truelly loved her or was that possesive love.

[Lady Anna]

Every time I read the title of this thread I have a good chuckle.

[Bernie Mac]

21 hours ago, Kandrax said:

You have forgoten to mention Vances.

Yeah. They are a mystery to me to be fair. 

We know that Stevron's only daughter married a Vance (and has three children by him) but we are not sure which branch, the more powerful Vance of Wayfarers's Rest of the Vance's of Atranta. I suspect Dafyn is an uncle of Karyl, but he could just as easily be a younger brother of Norbert (he can't be a son as all his sons have been named).  The Vance's of Atranta heirs were amongst Edmure's party but we know that Hugo, at least, was released quite early as he is carrying Jaime's Kingsguard banner at Riverrun. 

Too hard to call, we know one (or possibly both) Vances sued for peace very quickly. I'd say it depends on Lord Karyl's advice to Jaime on going to Raventree Hall. If there truly is a conspiracy he may have set Jaime up to be captured or it may well be genuine advice to stop the bloodshed between the Brackens and Blackwoods and bring peace to the Riverlands. 

 

3 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I would be careful of stating what Littlefinger does and does not care about . He keeps his cards close to his vest and don't forget he is Lord of The Riverlands even though the Freys are acting as if they are . His best way to get on the good side of the Riverlords would be by  knocking the Freys down a peg or two and don't forget that Cat was the love of his life and the Freys killed her . 

I honestly don't get that feeling from Littlefinger at all. He helped bring down the Starks and Tullys, not only with setting Ned and Cat up in regards to Jon Arryn and Tyrion but his negotiation of the Tyrells and him even training and giving Jeyne Poole over to the Boltons. He doomed Cat and there is no evidence that he regrets it. He certainly played his part in her demise and the huge emotional anguish she faced before that. 

The only time he brings up the Freys after her death is his ploy with Corbray to trick the honourable Royce into backing down. 

[Blackfish Tully]

3 hours ago, Kandrax said:

This depend whether he truelly loved her or was that possesive love.

does it really matter what kind of love it was . Either way he can't be happy that some Frey cut her throat . 

[Ser Leftwich]

How/why is this nonsense still going on?

[Blackfish Tully]

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I honestly don't get that feeling from Littlefinger at all. He helped bring down the Starks and Tullys, not only with setting Ned and Cat up in regards to Jon Arryn and Tyrion but his negotiation of the Tyrells and him even training and giving Jeyne Poole over to the Boltons. He doomed Cat and there is no evidence that he regrets it. He certainly played his part in her demise and the huge emotional anguish she faced before that. 

The only time he brings up the Freys after her death is his ploy with Corbray to trick the honourable Royce into backing down. 

The only time in the last 2 books that we learn anything about what Littlefinger is thinking is  when he is talking to Sansa so we have a very narrow window into his mindset , we only hear what Littlefinger wants Sansa to hear and so trying to judge what he cares about and what he doesn't care about is a very tricky exercise . The fact that he almost never mentions the Riverlands or the Freys even though he is the Lord of the Riverlands to me is pretty suspicious , i would not be surprised that behind the scenes Littlefinger is not spending a lot of time and resources working on turning the chaos in the Riverlands to his advantage . He may have played a part in Cat's downfall but that does not meen he is OK with a Frey murdering  his childhood love. 

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 The fact that he almost never mentions the Riverlands or the Freys even though he is the Lord of the Riverlands to me is pretty suspicious , i would not be surprised that behind the scenes Littlefinger is not spending a lot of time and resources working on turning the chaos in the Riverlands to his advantage . 

From what we have seen it appears Littlfinger cares very little about the Riverlands, that it was all a ploy to get control of the Vale and Cat jnr. He has not even appointed a Castellan, that was left to Jaime who appointed the honourable Bonifer Hasty (which seems to be a huge advantage for Dany given his feelings towards her mother) and seems to be doing his best to get his Vale vassals to do his bidding while seems to have zero relationship with the Riverlords. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah. They are a mystery to me to be fair. 

We know that Stevron's only daughter married a Vance (and has three children by him) but we are not sure which branch, the more powerful Vance of Wayfarers's Rest of the Vance's of Atranta. I suspect Dafyn is an uncle of Karyl, but he could just as easily be a younger brother of Norbert (he can't be a son as all his sons have been named).  The Vance's of Atranta heirs were amongst Edmure's party but we know that Hugo, at least, was released quite early as he is carrying Jaime's Kingsguard banner at Riverrun. 

Too hard to call, we know one (or possibly both) Vances sued for peace very quickly. I'd say it depends on Lord Karyl's advice to Jaime on going to Raventree Hall. If there truly is a conspiracy he may have set Jaime up to be captured or it may well be genuine advice to stop the bloodshed between the Brackens and Blackwoods and bring peace to the Riverlands. 

 

I honestly don't get that feeling from Littlefinger at all. He helped bring down the Starks and Tullys, not only with setting Ned and Cat up in regards to Jon Arryn and Tyrion but his negotiation of the Tyrells and him even training and giving Jeyne Poole over to the Boltons. He doomed Cat and there is no evidence that he regrets it. He certainly played his part in her demise and the huge emotional anguish she faced before that. 

The only time he brings up the Freys after her death is his ploy with Corbray to trick the honourable Royce into backing down. 

I think  Tyrion was right about his assessment of Littlefinger; the man really doesn't care for anything outside of Little finger. Hell even Catelyn it may have merely been a fixation on her to which he only aspired to have to prove he's goof enough to bag the elder daughter of a lord paramount 

Which in his society he would never be.

Even with all his gains during and before the war and his showing of merit at his job he's still seen as an inferior by the rest of the nobility.

It reminds me of Davos(even though they're complete opposites) in a way; no matter how far they've come, they will never be seen as the equals to the nobility.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On February 8, 2018 at 6:09 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Then why hasn’t Manderly set up or ordered the mass murder of the Frey men, or even a small subset of them 

Because he'd be easily crushed? Like, just because he's not completely acting a fool and biding his time to get revenge doesn't mean he'd be any less sympathetic to any Frey regardless of who they are and they actually did when he's in a position to exact vegence; I'm sure he wouldn't show any more pity towards their women than he did fat Walda when he watched giddly  as the woman  unknowingly ate her kin or any more pity towards their children than he had done Little Walder.

[Kandrax]

20 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

How/why is this nonsense still going on?

This nonsense will last  until sun rise in west and set in east.

[Blackfish Tully]

On 2/9/2018 at 4:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

From what we have seen it appears Littlfinger cares very little about the Riverlands, that it was all a ploy to get control of the Vale and Cat jnr. He has not even appointed a Castellan, that was left to Jaime who appointed the honourable Bonifer Hasty (which seems to be a huge advantage for Dany given his feelings towards her mother) and seems to be doing his best to get his Vale vassals to do his bidding while seems to have zero relationship with the Riverlords. 

How much of Littlefinger's plans and thought process have we really been in on ? The only thing we know about Littlefinger's plans in the last 2 books are what he has decided to tell Sansa . We have very little idea of what he is really up to . We know that he has bigger plans then just the Vale so it's hard to believe that he would completely ignore the one kingdom that he is Lord Paramount of . 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 2/9/2018 at 10:48 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Because he'd be easily crushed? Like, just because he's not completely acting a fool and biding his time to get revenge doesn't mean he'd be any less sympathetic to any Frey regardless of who they are and they actually did when he's in a position to exact vegence; I'm sure he wouldn't show any more pity towards their women than he did fat Walda when he watched giddly  as the woman  unknowingly ate her kin or any more pity towards their children than he had done Little Walder.

Right because when the Freys suspected him of murdering their men or BW, everyone believed the Freys and Manderly was crushed. And before you say he was crushed, he wasn't attacked for the suspected murders. He was attacked for mocking the dead boy and the Boltons stopped the fighting.

[the trees have eyes]

On 09/02/2018 at 9:13 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

How/why is this nonsense still going on?

It's down to the unstoppable power of the internet where frivolous and contrary arguments are immune to logic and reason   You may as well try and argue in certain cirlces that Sheryl Crow is alive and well, it's fruitless if people find it entertaining to pretend otherwise.