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House Frey should be respected (part 2)


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16 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

why concentrate all his energy on ruling the Vale through Robert Arryn and completely ignore the realm that he is actually Lord Paramount of?

that just makes no sense . Littlefinger has higher ambitions then just being the power behind the Vale and it would be hard to believe that he is just ignoring the Riverlands . Why not let the Lannisters use their resources and energy straightening out the Riverlands and allow the Freys to get complacent before he makes his move . Being in control of the Riverlands and the power behind the Vale would  make Littlefinger a major player for whatever happens going forward .  

He's stepped out of the shadows in the Vale and made himself Lord Protector and faced down the Lords Declarant including Bronze Yohn so i have a hard time believing that he would be afraid of the Freys . 

Because being LP of the Riverlands is an empty title.  Harrenhall is a ruin and gives him no men and no power and as an outsider he has no connections in the RL.  It's a completely different picture in the Vale where he has control of the heir, Robert Arryn, and all of House Arryn's resources, plus all his connections from serving Jon Arryn.  He's on home ground.

And what does he want in the Riverlands?  Hs is not going to become King and he is not going to make an overt play for power that will have some powerful House(s) decide to end his pretensions, he is far more likely to rule through manipulating others whether it's Robert Arryn, Harry the Heir or a revealed Sansa.  I don't really see LF ruling form HH any more than from KL.

It's possible that he will make some kind of play though Sansa for either the North (Stark heir) or the Riverlands (Tully heiress, Edmure notwithsanding) but I think that will be through her claim not his own.  His title is afer all a reward from the Lannisters and can (and most likely will) be taken away by the next monarch.

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They should be respected for using their natural land barrier to great financial gain. Walder deserves some plaudits for seemingly making sure his entire family has food and shelter.

But the Red Wedding?

Say what you will about Robb backtracking on the marriage to a Frey, but was there any need to betray and murder most of the other guests?

A dose of poison in Stark's and Cat's drinks, attributed to some "Lannister spy" would have accomplished the same thing (for who would the Northerners and Riverlanders follow next? If not the Walder-aligned Roose?

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1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Cat's death wasn't acording to the plan.

Fair enough, but she died anyway, along with hundreds of Northerners who didn't need to suffer for Robb's decision to marry Jeyne Westerling, or whatever the company line is.

As I said, if Walder and Roose were really concerned with the well being of the North, they should have had Robb, Cat and perhaps Edmure poisoned in secret and blamed it on some "assassin".

Instead, they butchered most of Robb's party, including numerous able bodied soldiers that could have made Roose's upcoming tenure as Warden of The North all the more militarily viable. How many families other than the Starks and Mormonts must have seriously suffered in the aftermath of the Red Wedding? There must be many unnamed soldiers who's families will never see them again.

The whole ordeal has also clearly caused the Bolton's to be viewed in an extremely negative way by many of their fellow Northerners - something Roose was bound to know would happen, seeing as he has grown up in the North and knows all too well the laws of hospitality, not to mention to Northern honour system and the love for The Ned.

Ancient old Walder knew all to well about the cultural significance of honour and hospitality amongst the North (as well as the Riverlands) Now look at his house -  hated by half the country with kin getting strung up left, right and centre.

Their decision to murder so many at the RW (as opposed to a more compact "hitjob" on the main players) was foolish.

 

 

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10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Because being LP of the Riverlands is an empty title.  Harrenhall is a ruin and gives him no men and no power and as an outsider he has no connections in the RL.  

Harrenhall is far from being a ruin , the main feature of a castle is it’s walls and gates and Harrenhall’s walls and gates are massive and strong as ever , it’s still one of the most impregnable castles in Westeros. It also is surrounded by rich farmlands and sits in one of the most strategic places  in Westeros. Of course it would take a very rich lord to properly garrison it and there are few lords as rich as Littlefinger.

also Littlefinger was Hoster Tully’s Ward for several years so he is no stranger to the Riverlands. 

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

And what does he want in the Riverlands?  Hs is not going to become King and he is not going to make an overt play for power that will have some powerful House(s) decide to end his pretensions, he is far more likely to rule through manipulating others whether it's Robert Arryn, Harry the Heir or a revealed Sansa.  I don't really see LF ruling form HH any more than from 

I doubt Littlefinger has done everything he has done just to be the power behind the Vale. He stated to Sansa that he intends to remove Cersei from the game , why would he worry about Cersei if the Vale is his final goal? She has always been one of his biggest supporters. He has bigger plans then the Vale and it would be hard to believe that the Riverlands are not in those plans. I would be shocked if Littlefinger does not spies all through the Riverlands feeding him information and helping him prepare for a power move there . If he showed up with a Vale army at the Twins would the Riverlords not flock to his banner?

 

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

 

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On 2/14/2018 at 8:33 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

 

The north will remember but outside the north the RW will be forgiven and forgotten.  The north is not in a position to give meaning to their anger.  They lost and that is that.  

 

You think the Blackwood will ever forget or forgive the Red Wedding ? They don’t seem like they forgive or forget type of family. The Tully’s will never forget nor does it seem that House  Pipers or House Vance will forget very soon . Jason Mallister is a tough no nonsense guy who seems like he knows how to hold a grudge . That is some of the most powerful Houses in th Riverlands so the moment the Frey’s show any weakness all hell will break loose

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18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Catelyn again I fail was a challenge to little finger; she was the lord Paramount's first daughter and getting her would have been a vindication. 

 

It was much more then just a challenge , he disobeyed Hoster Tully to fight the much larger and older Brandon Stark in a crazy  risk for Cat that he was certain to lose and probably die and even in a miracle if he won he would have killed the heir to the North and ruined Hoster Tully’s plans and would have been exiled from the Riverlands never to see Cat . It was stupid , crazy risk and only a lovesick teenager would do something like that.

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15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Likely because as the only son of a minor House he does not have the support and structure to rule two of the seven kingdoms. 

 

But that is what has happened, has it not? He has been the ruler of Harrenhal for three books and has done nothing for them. Most likely because the Riverlands, in it is current position, is of no help to Littlefinger. 

 

Littlefinger  went from being one of the smallest lords in Westeros to the Lord Protector of the Vale and the Lord Paramount if the Riverlands in a very short time , why would he stop there ? Westeros is still in chaos and it’s getting worse so why would he not think that he could not take advantage of the situation . His arrogance and ego would leave him to believe that nothing is out of his reach. Who would he be afraid of? The Lannister’s are nearly spent , the Tyrells are fighting the Iron Born and the Golden Company , Stannis and Roose are fighting each other in the North  so if he can unite the Vale and Riverlands who can stand against him?

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56 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It was much more then just a challenge , he disobeyed Hoster Tully to fight the much larger and older Brandon Stark in a crazy  risk for Cat that he was certain to lose and probably die and even in a miracle if he won he would have killed the heir to the North and ruined Hoster Tully’s plans and would have been exiled from the Riverlands never to see Cat . It was stupid , crazy risk and only a lovesick teenager would do something like that.

Or someone obsessed with moving up from his current station. I imagine it never sat right Petry on how easily dismissed he was because of his lowly birth  and being reminded of it constantly by merely being around the Tullys. It was a stupid and crazy risk the type a teenager may do when their really insecure and want to prove that they're awesome.

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20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Or someone obsessed with moving up from his current station. I imagine it never sat right Petry on how easily dismissed he was because of his lowly birth  and being reminded of it constantly by merely being around the Tullys. It was a stupid and crazy risk the type a teenager may do when their really insecure and want to prove that they're awesome.

How does fighting Brandon Stark help Littlefinger move up in his station? Being Hoster Tully’s ward was a huge deal for a small lord’s heir like him, challenging Brandon ruined that relationship so if he wins he is ruined in the Riverlands and if he loses he is also ruined in the Riverlands and probably dead as well . Why is it so hard to believe that Littlefinger was a love sick teenager ? He became a monster but was not always one 

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41 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

How does fighting Brandon Stark help Littlefinger move up in his station? Being Hoster Tully’s ward was a huge deal for a small lord’s heir like him, challenging Brandon ruined that relationship so if he wins he is ruined in the Riverlands and if he loses he is also ruined in the Riverlands and probably dead as well . Why is it so hard to believe that Littlefinger was a love sick teenager ? He became a monster but was not always one 

I didn't say it was the best of plans still wedding a lord paramount's daughter is something that a low born noble like him  could ever hope for. You'd best the future warden of the north and taken the daughter of another through honorable means-people would write tales of such a story for a thousand years. I don't feel little finger was a lovesick teenager because a sociopath I don't feel is capable of love. Because if had ever really loved he wouldn't have bragged for all to hear that he'd took her virginity knowing it'd make her viewed as a common slut.

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5 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Littlefinger  went from being one of the smallest lords in Westeros to the Lord Protector of the Vale and the Lord Paramount if the Riverlands in a very short time , why would he stop there ?

Exactly. The Riverlands can't help him get further up the ladder poll, they are spent, their lands pillaged, their armies dead, their coffers empty and their lands in need of rebuilding. 

Littlefinger has bigger plans, plans which the (currently) least powerful realm can not help him with. That is why his focus is on the Vale and its Lords. 

 

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8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Exactly. The Riverlands can't help him get further up the ladder poll, they are spent, their lands pillaged, their armies dead, their coffers empty and their lands in need of rebuilding. 

Littlefinger has bigger plans, plans which the (currently) least powerful realm can not help him with. That is why his focus is on the Vale and its Lords. 

 

The Riverlands are far from spent , Edmure had enough men at the Battle of the Fords to defeat Tywin and those men are still in the Riverlands just scattered with no leadership. Can’t Littlefinger focus on the Vale Lords and still be working on plans in The Riverlands? He has shown the ability to mulitask in Kings Landing so him just completely ignoring the Riverlands seems to be hard to believe . 

 

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18 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Harrenhall is far from being a ruin , the main feature of a castle is it’s walls and gates and Harrenhall’s walls and gates are massive and strong as ever , it’s still one of the most impregnable castles in Westeros. It also is surrounded by rich farmlands and sits in one of the most strategic places  in Westeros. Of course it would take a very rich lord to properly garrison it and there are few lords as rich as Littlefinger.

Harrenhall is seen as a curse and has been fom the minute it was built by Black Harren.  LF has no men and no money, what he has is sheepshit on the Fingers and what he can get his hands on that properly belongs to Robert Arryn or maybe Harry Harding but it does not belong to him.

The military powers in the riverlands are Tully, Frey, Mallister, Blackwood and Bracken and maybe Piper and Vance.  Harrnehall was constructed by the Ironborn and there is no indication that it has any significant power or resources in it's own right: it changed hands during the Wot5k often and easily enough due to this fact.  No one there has an ounce of loyalty to LF or an ounce of influence in the RL.  Compare that with his position in the Vale with Robert Arryn under his wing and it's quite obvious why he is working in the Vale without even the hint of a token command or letter sent to his "bannermen" in the RL in all this time.

18 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

also Littlefinger was Hoster Tully’s Ward for several years so he is no stranger to the Riverlands. 

He left the RL in disgrace and has never set foot there since.  The nobility of the RL will remember him but not fondly and will have just as many reservations about following this social inferior as the Vale Lords do.  And he doesn't have custody of the heir to force them into obedience.

18 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I doubt Littlefinger has done everything he has done just to be the power behind the Vale. He stated to Sansa that he intends to remove Cersei from the game , why would he worry about Cersei if the Vale is his final goal? She has always been one of his biggest supporters. He has bigger plans then the Vale and it would be hard to believe that the Riverlands are not in those plans. I would be shocked if Littlefinger does not spies all through the Riverlands feeding him information and helping him prepare for a power move there . If he showed up with a Vale army at the Twins would the Riverlords not flock to his banner?

 

So do you think he aspires to be king?  I think his MO is to be the power behind the throne not to seek too much power himself as he knows he would never be accepted due to his low birth.

And why would a Vale army do that?  The River Lords will flock to Edmure Tully and his heir, perhaps to Robert Arryn as Hoster Tully's grandson and, equally, perhaps to Sansa as His granddaughter but never to LF.  His power plays revolve around posession of the individual who has the claim and the loyalty of the Lords/common folk for he has neither and never will.

Given he appears to be poisoning Robet Arryn, or at least to be preparing for his death he loses his leverage in the Vale and one potential lever in the RL.  That leaves Sansa but he appears to be preparing for her to cement his power in the Vale.

It's worth pointing out that LF has never married and has no heir so what would be the point of him ruling directly in any region?  A succession crisis would simply occur every time he caught a cold or stubbed his toe and someone would always be angling to replace him.  Indeed why would they follow him in the first place as House Baelish has no strength and is a dead end?

15 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Littlefinger  went from being one of the smallest lords in Westeros to the Lord Protector of the Vale and the Lord Paramount if the Riverlands in a very short time , why would he stop there ? Westeros is still in chaos and it’s getting worse so why would he not think that he could not take advantage of the situation . His arrogance and ego would leave him to believe that nothing is out of his reach. Who would he be afraid of? The Lannister’s are nearly spent , the Tyrells are fighting the Iron Born and the Golden Company , Stannis and Roose are fighting each other in the North  so if he can unite the Vale and Riverlands who can stand against him?

Long live King Petyr, first of his name?

I don't think this is his game at all.  He wants to bring low those who thought themselves so superior to him and profit in the chaos this creates but he does so by appearing to be a friend to them and keeping his hands clean.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Harrenhall is seen as a curse and has been fom the minute it was built by Black Harren.  LF has no men and no money, what he has is sheepshit on the Fingers and what he can get his hands on that properly belongs to Robert Arryn or maybe Harry Harding but it does not belong to him.

 

I doubt that someone like Littlefinger cares about Harrenhall’s curse , what he cares about is the massive walls and gates and rich farmlands. 

As for him not having men or money i’m Not sure we are reading the same books , Littlefinger has been buying debts all over the place and seems to be massively rich and we have been hearing from Sansa that he has been hiring Knights and    He is also the Lord Protector of the Vale which means he can call the banners of the Vale to go to the Riverlands if he is so inclined. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

He left the RL in disgrace and has never set foot there since.  The nobility of the RL will remember him but not fondly and will have just as many reservations about following this social inferior as the Vale Lords do. 

It's worth pointing out that LF has never married and has no heir so what would be the point of him ruling directly in any region?  A succession crisis would simply occur every time he caught a cold or stubbed 

 

We have no idea how the nobility of the Riverlands feel about Littlefinger and if he shows up with a Vale army to help them get out from under the Frey’s they are not going to care what happened 20 years ago.

As for him not being married he is still a pretty young guy so he has plenty of time to marry and have children . Frankly at this time he may be one of the best catches for some lord’s daughter . The Lord Protector of the Vale , Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and being obscenely wealthy are all three attractive qualities for a marriage . 

 

"We all know how devoted he was to Lady Lysa," said Myranda, "but he cannot mourn forever. He needs a pretty young wife to wash away his grief. I imagine he could have his pick of half the noble maidens in the Vale. Who could be a better husband than our own bold Lord Protector? Though I do wish he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?"

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54 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

.

So do you think he aspires to be king?  I think his MO is to be the power behind the throne not to seek too much power himself as he knows he would never be accepted due to his low birth.

 

I have no idea what Littlefinger aspires to be i’m just pretty sure that being Lord Protector of the Vale is not his end goal. Lord Protector has a time limit , either Robert becomes an adult and takes over as Lord or Robert dies and Harry becomes Lord , either way he has a limited amount of time to make his moves . If somehow he is able to unite the Vale and Riverlands under his lordship with all the chaos in the rest of Westeroes he would become one of the biggest power brokers in Westeros . Throwing his support to Stannis or Aegon or Dany would change the dynamics of the wars in an instant.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

And why would a Vale army do that?  

Because Littlefinger would convince them to do it . Littlefinger  has shown a great ability to get Lords of Westeroes to dance on his strings . He just has to get the most powerful lords of the Vale to join him and the rest will follow . Each Lord will have different buttons that will need pushed. Some will do it for the chance for glory and/or plunder (the Frey’s are very rich)and some for a chance for revenge on the Freys (Bronze Yohn for example) . The Vale Lords and Knights were kept out of the wars so far and will be craving for a chance to get into the action. If he can convince the 5 or 6 most powerful lords especially Bronze Yohn then the rest will have no choice but to follow . It does not hurt that he has Robb Starks sister to use as a rallying figure against the Frey’s .

 

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2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The Riverlands are far from spent ,

Yeah, they are. Where do you think they are getting the food to feed an army? They are spent as a military support, they are going to lucky to not suffer their worst ever Winter given the state the Riverlands is in and the devastation caused. 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Edmure had enough men at the Battle of the Fords to defeat Tywin and those men are still in the Riverlands just scattered with no leadership.

I'm sorry, but this is bizarre logic. These men don't continue being soldiers when no one is paying or feeding them. 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Can’t Littlefinger focus on the Vale Lords and still be working on plans in The Riverlands?

He could, but we have seen zero sign of it. 

It is not also possible that controlling one realm might be taking up the majority of Littlfinger's resources and expertise? 

2 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

He has shown the ability to mulitask in Kings Landing so him just completely ignoring the Riverlands seems to be hard to believe . 

There is nothing to gain from the Riverlands, it is a spent force right now.

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7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

I'm sorry, but this is bizarre logic. These men don't continue being soldiers when no one is paying or feeding them. 

 

Not sure what you mean by bizarre logic . 

Edmure had more than 10,000 men at the Fords and those men are still in the Riverlands and under the right situation they could be brought back together to form a new army . They did not just disappear or forget how to be soldiers . You act like the Riverland armies were somehow wiped out and that is simply not true. 

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

r, first of his name?

I don't think this is his game at all.  He wants to bring low those who thought themselves so superior to him and profit in the chaos this creates but he does so by appearing to be a friend to them and keeping his hands clean.

Handship(Jaimie wants to give him) may be his ultimate end goal? I mean Tommen would be ripee for exploitation.

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