House Frey should be respected (part 2)

[Blackfish Tully]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

I'm sorry, but this is bizarre logic. These men don't continue being soldiers when no one is paying or feeding them. 

As for getting paid that just does not exist in these types of armies. Only the mercenaries get paid , the Riverland armies fight for their lords and there is no payment involved . If Littlefinger arrives with a Vale army and convinces the Riverlords to join him then they would call their banners and their army would be formed from those banner men  as for food the Vale could provide all they would need. 

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Not sure what you mean by bizarre logic . 

Wars are expensive, maintaining large armies are expensive. When funds run low then armies are released. That army that Edmure raised a year ago likely no longer exists. Some would have found other armies to join (which would explain how the Freys could have so many with Ryman, Aenys, Darry, Seagard and theTwins) while others may have travelled elsewhere or became broken men. 

That 11k that was raised a year ago, when it was still summer, is likely to be considerably less right now. There is just not the means to support it. 

6 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 You act like the Riverland armies were somehow wiped out and that is simply not true. 

Armies don't just get wiped out by battle. When you can't feed or pay for an army then you are going to have a diminished army. 

The Brackens and Blackwoods, two of the most powerful Riverland Houses, have less than 1k between the two of them. Houses Piper, both Vances, Smallwood, Lychester, Roote and Goodbrook had around 2k at the siege of Riverrun. 

 

Without the Freys the Riverlands is weak, the war has cost them too much. They are not going to be a force to be reckoned with till some time in the next summer. 

[Bernie Mac]

20 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

As for getting paid that just does not exist in these types of armies. Only the mercenaries get paid , the Riverland armies fight for their lords and there is no payment involved .

First of all you don't know that, you don't know how much of Edmure's 11k were sellswords. Every army has sellswords, this is just part and parcel of how these armies are, just look at the host Robb assembled in the North

Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came … but not forever. 

And secondly, they do get paid, paid with food. The Riverlands crops have been destroyed, castles and settlements constantly taken would have had an effect on their stores and the smarter Lords would have been realising that they need food to feed themselves and their garrison during winter, which means cutting down on unnecessary solders. 

The soldiers who don't get paid, don't get fed and don't get plunder have no reason to serve as a soldier. 

20 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

If Littlefinger arrives with a Vale army and convinces the Riverlords to join him then they would call their banners and their army would be formed from those banner men

Which given the past year would be a paltry amount. Without the Freys and their allies we are probably looking at less than 5k. 

20 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 as for food the Vale could provide all they would need. 

Sure. Somehow I doubt that is Littlefinger's big plan. Use the Vale's excess food stock to feed the Riverland soldiers all to get revenge on the Freys. He seems to have bigger plans than that. 

[Blackfish Tully]

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

The soldiers who don't get paid, don't get fed and don't get plunder have no reason to serve as a soldier. 

Which given the past year would be a paltry amount. Without the Freys and their allies we are probably looking at less than 5k. 

The Lords will make sure that their Knights and soldiers are taken care and fed they know their hold in power is based on how many soldiers and Knights they can keep under their banner , it’s the peasants who are screwed in the Riverlands , they are the ones who will starve. I think you are way underestimating the amount of soldiers that can be raised in the Riverlands but like a lot of things in these books we can only speculate on the numbers.

 

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Sure. Somehow I doubt that is Littlefinger's big plan. Use the Vale's excess food stock to feed the Riverland soldiers all to get revenge on the Freys. He seems to have bigger plans than that. 

What if his plans are to unite the Vale and Rivetlands and throw his support to Danny or Aegon if they  make him Lord of Vale and Rivers? As for food stock the Frey’s seem to be well supplied and they have a ton of gold and silver in their Towers so it would benefit everybody to defeat them . 

[Kandrax]

Is this is turned into Littledick thread?

[Sea Dragon]

On February 4, 2018 at 2:19 PM, Frey Kings said:

Last thread: 

 

 

They rose from nothing and didn't owe anyone blind allegiance. No legendary or historic roots like some other great houses in Westeros. But they should be proud that a commoner was able to rise to royalty and the the rest of the royalty class didn't accept them and continue to spit on them!!! Sure there are some bad apples but when you are sh_tted on for your entire existence what else would you expect?

 

Here's to House Frey!!! 

LOL! Why does this topic need a part 2? The Freys are the white trash of Westeros. How can anyone argue in their defense? 

[Kandrax]

19 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

How can anyone argue in their defense? 

Well, people argued in defense of real life criminals.

[Yukle]

19 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

LOL! Why does this topic need a part 2? The Freys are the white trash of Westeros. How can anyone argue in their defense? 

 

29 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Well, people argued in defense of real life criminals.

Interesting way of putting it.

The thread is now a LF thread, but to get back to the main thrust: House Frey stinks. They are indeed self-made, which is admirable, but that doesn't excuse a lack of faith when called upon. They are meant to be bannermen to the Tullys, not weighing things up for maximum profit. If they want to rule as kings, then they should expect their neighbours to fight them and hate them for it.

[Aetta]

21 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

LOL! Why does this topic need a part 2? The Freys are the white trash of Westeros. How can anyone argue in their defense? 

Right you are.  Plus I think the place probably smells like a retirement home. Blech.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Yukle said:

 

Interesting way of putting it.

The thread is now a LF thread, but to get back to the main thrust: House Frey stinks. They are indeed self-made, which is admirable, but that doesn't excuse a lack of faith when called upon. They are meant to be bannermen to the Tullys, not weighing things up for maximum profit. If they want to rule as kings, then they should expect their neighbours to fight them and hate them for it.

Meh, for that they are simply doing what nobility does-look for the outcome that could increase their houses status. They did not try to rule as kings. They were sworn to the Iron throne and until lord Tully could prove it was in their interest to break their oaths to the monarch they stayed neutral-completely reasonable and given their loyalties are to be first to the monarch than the lord paramount they did not shame themselves by not immediately aiding in the treason. 

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, for that they are simply doing what nobility does-look for the outcome that could increase their houses status. They did not try to rule as kings. They were sworn to the Iron throne and until lord Tully could prove it was in their interest to break their oaths to the monarch they stayed neutral-completely reasonable and given their loyalties are to be first to the monarch than the lord paramount they did not shame themselves by not immediately aiding in the treason. 

They didn't do this out of loyalty to the Iron Throne but out of pragmatic self-interest. If the Iron Throne was easily losing, they'd have joined the Tullys no problem, just as they did in RR.

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 minutes ago, Yukle said:

They didn't do this out of loyalty to the Iron Throne but out of pragmatic self-interest. If the Iron Throne was easily losing, they'd have joined the Tullys no problem, just as they did in RR.

Yes they did it out of pragmitism-fully admitted that-but I take issue with this idea of them somehow dishonoring themselves by not immediately jumping on the bag wagon of "let's wage a rebellion against the Ironthrone" whenever a Tully or someone related says they're in need of their services.

 

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes they did it out of pragmitism-fully admitted that-but I take issue with this idea of them somehow dishonoring themselves by not immediately jumping on the bag wagon of "let's wage a rebellion against the Ironthrone" whenever a Tully or someone related says they're in need of their services.

 

That only works if it's a one-way system. It's not. As feudal lords they are entitled to extra legal and economic advantages that commoners aren't. For instance, they can dispense justice, and also appeal decisions to the Crown - commoners cannot do this. Their taxes are lower than common folk and they administer the collection of taxes, making it a target for corruption almost all nobles exploited.

The fact that they even own large swathes of land is due to their claim being recognised by their overlords. They wouldn't own any land or have had permission to build a castle if the Tullys didn't grant it. Only an idiotic lord would allow a castle to be built without their leave.

In exchange for these privileges, they are expected to provide taxes and arms to the Tullys when called. The Tullys raised their banners. The Freys didn't come. Therefore they took all the benefits of feudalism while not holding up their end. So they are scumbags.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Yukle said:

That only works if it's a one-way system. It's not. As feudal lords they are entitled to extra legal and economic advantages that commoners aren't. For instance, they can dispense justice, and also appeal decisions to the Crown - commoners cannot do this. Their taxes are lower than common folk and they administer the collection of taxes, making it a target for corruption almost all nobles exploited.

The fact that they even own large swathes of land is due to their claim being recognised by their overlords. They wouldn't own any land or have had permission to build a castle if the Tullys didn't grant it. Only an idiotic lord would allow a castle to be built without their leave.

In exchange for these privileges, they are expected to provide taxes and arms to the Tullys when called. The Tullys raised their banners. The Freys didn't come. Therefore they took all the benefits of feudalism while not holding up their end. So they are scumbags.

The Tullys during Robert's rebellion raised their banners against the throne-to which loyaltyies are supposed triumph that of a lord paramount. When Rob's rebellion started against the Ironthrone they had even less preogrative to come it's not even their lord paramount having called them-its heir and the grandson of the lord paramount.  The Tullys sole claim to govern the riverlands rests upon the entity that is the throne and before that of other royal dynasties-they were never kings like the Stark's in the north or Lanisters in the westerlands-kings gave the Tullys the authority govern the riverlands and the IT is the most recent one to allow them this privelage  with the stipulation of them recognizing the throne's authority- when they stop doing that they longer have the privelage and perceived right to use any of the powers the throne would grant them as an overlord of a province-the Freys by all intents in purposes based on their oaths to the Iron throne should if anything come in support of the Crown 

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Yukle said:

 

They are indeed self-made, which is admirable, but that doesn't excuse a lack of faith when called upon. They are meant to be bannermen to the Tullys, 

And also the King. They have a divided loyalty. Put it this way, if the owner of the business you work at fires your manager are you still going to take orders from him?

 

7 hours ago, Aetta said:

Right you are.  Plus I think the place probably smells like a retirement home. Blech.

Likely the opposite as there are more young people there than old. Walder is one of the oldest men in the realm, but his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren are all pretty active and the grandchildren outnumber the old people of the family by some margin.

The Freys in general are a healthy lot, the melee that Robert wanted fight in featured Walder's second and fourth oldest sons, who are both in their 50's. Stevron Frey was off fighting wars while the younger Hoster Tully was bedridden. 

 

6 hours ago, Yukle said:

They didn't do this out of loyalty to the Iron Throne but out of pragmatic self-interest. If the Iron Throne was easily losing, they'd have joined the Tullys no problem, just as they did in RR.

Of course. Why is that so bad? Why would any sensible person not weigh up the cost of war? Especially when that war has little to do with them?

 

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

They wouldn't own any land or have had permission to build a castle if the Tullys didn't grant it.

The Tullys were not in power when the Freys built their castle. The Tully's would not become rulers of the Riverlands for another 300 years. 

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

Only an idiotic lord would allow a castle to be built without their leave.

Or a Lord who recognised that castles on the border of the realm means greater protection for the entire Riverlands given that before the Targaryens conquered the realm the Northmen regularly attacked in the Winter. 

 

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

In exchange for these privileges, they are expected to provide taxes and arms to the Tullys when called. The Tullys raised their banners. The Freys didn't come.

Nor did the Mallisters, and the Freys are further away. The Frey's being the most furthest away  and their lands quite large have good reason for being late given that Edmure's forces collapsed incredibly quickly. 

 "I called my swords, yes I did, here they are, you saw them on the walls. It was my intent to march as soon as all my strength was assembled. Well, to send my sons. I am well past marching myself, Lady Catelyn." He looked around for likely confirmation and pointed to a tall, stooped man of fifty years. "Tell her, Jared. Tell her that was my intent."

"It was, my lady," said Ser Jared Frey, one of his sons by his second wife. "On my honor."

 "Is it my fault that your fool brother lost his battle before we could march?"

 

In point of fact it was very lucky that Walder had held back as the only two Lords whose lands were still under their own hold were the two Lords, Frey and Mallister, who were not at Riverrun. Perhaps if more Riverlords used some common sense the Riverlands would not have capitulated so quickly. 

4 hours ago, Yukle said:

Therefore they took all the benefits of feudalism while not holding up their end. So they are scumbags.

They do hold their end, they pay their taxes don't they?

And they are only learning from the Tully's, who did not hold up their end when the Targ's were being attacked and only joined the rebels once Hoster's price was met. 

On 18/02/2018 at 5:51 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

The Lords will make sure that their Knights and soldiers are taken care and fed

Yes, but they simply won't be able to for the duration. Not with the Riverlands gone to crap. They will feed and keep on retainer as many as they can, but that will be nowhere as many as they had when Edmure called his banners. 

There is not some endless amount of food to feed unlimited amounts of soldiers. There will be a limit. 

On 18/02/2018 at 5:51 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

 they know their hold in power is based on how many soldiers and Knights they can keep under their banner ,

Well no, they'll want their garrison and retainers fed. Everyone is expecting a long winter, lords will have to make sacrifices so the soldiers they called up during Summer is not going to be the same amount they can summon in Winter, especially not after the devastation that the war has done to the Riverlands. 

Some Lords, the ones who castles have been taken multiple times, are going to have trouble feeding themselves. 

On 18/02/2018 at 5:51 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

it’s the peasants who are screwed in the Riverlands , they are the ones who will starve.

A lot of the 11k were peasants. They are not soldiers on retainer. 

On 18/02/2018 at 5:51 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

I think you are way underestimating the amount of soldiers that can be raised in the Riverlands but like a lot of things in these books we can only speculate on the numbers.

I'm really not. The Riverlands has been hit the worst, we see powerful Lords like the Brackens and Blackwoods with around 500 men. 

On 18/02/2018 at 5:51 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

 

What if his plans are to unite the Vale and Rivetlands and throw his support to Danny or Aegon if they  make him Lord of Vale and Rivers?

How likely is that considering he does not control the loyalty of the Riverlords and it is Robin who rules the Vale?

You are giving up hypotheticals, I am only speaking of what we have seen. He has done nothing in the Riverlands and has allowed Jaime to install the Castellan who rules those lands. You are right, anything can happen, that is why it is pointless using it as evidence. We can only use what is canon. 

 

On 18/02/2018 at 5:51 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

As for food stock the Frey’s seem to be well supplied and they have a ton of gold and silver in their Towers so it would benefit everybody to defeat them . 

It also makes it a lot harder to defeat them as they can afford to hire more soldiers than any other Riverlord, perhaps them all combined right now. Look at how many Frey's we see in the aftermath of the Red Wedding, 2k at Riverrun, 1.6k in the North, at least 400 at the Twins, enough to hold Seagard, an unknown amount at Darry, members like Arwood and the Haighs in the Saltpans regions and this is after the losses the Frey's would have taken in the war of the five kings (the battle of the Green Fork will have wiped out at least 500). 

Some of those 11k who were not Frey soldiers at that point will have became Frey soldiers since as they are one of the few Houses with the money, food and excess armoury to equip new soldiers. 

[Yukle]

5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The Tullys during Robert's rebellion raised their banners against the throne-to which loyaltyies are supposed triumph that of a lord paramount. When Rob's rebellion started against the Ironthrone they had even less preogrative to come it's not even their lord paramount having called them-its heir and the grandson of the lord paramount.  The Tullys sole claim to govern the riverlands rests upon the entity that is the throne and before that of other royal dynasties-they were never kings like the Stark's in the north or Lanisters in the westerlands-...

This is modern-day thinking. While it sounds weird to us, feudal lords only paid obligations to their immediate superiors. By law, only an overlord can rule their subjects. The King only intervenes when the lord appeals to them, or if there is a dire need to do so, such as in the instance of treason or corruption.

That's how it worked in real life, and according to The World of Ice and Fire, most competent rulers such as Jaeherys and Tywin make laws consistent, but rule with a light hand.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Of course. Why is that so bad? Why would any sensible person not weigh up the cost of war? Especially when that war has little to do with them?

...

 "I called my swords, yes I did, here they are, you saw them on the walls. It was my intent to march as soon as all my strength was assembled. Well, to send my sons. I am well past marching myself, Lady Catelyn." He looked around for likely confirmation and pointed to a tall, stooped man of fifty years. "Tell her, Jared. Tell her that was my intent."

"It was, my lady," said Ser Jared Frey, one of his sons by his second wife. "On my honor."

 "Is it my fault that your fool brother lost his battle before we could march?"

In point of fact it was very lucky that Walder had held back as the only two Lords whose lands were still under their own hold were the two Lords, Frey and Mallister, who were not at Riverrun. Perhaps if more Riverlords used some common sense the Riverlands would not have capitulated so quickly. 

They do hold their end, they pay their taxes don't they?

For the part in red, you give a lot of weight to what is clearly Walder's complete bullshit. For one thing, the North had mobilised its armies and they are much further away than he is. So he is completely full of shit.

There's also the fact that as a bannerman, he doesn't get to make the decisions about when and why to join the war. The fact that he withheld his army makes it more likely his overlords will fail - in other words, he is contributing to their eventual defeat. Just turning up would have made a difference, and it's worth mentioning that most banner men are not so selfish. Even the ones who were loyal to the Iron Throne picked a side rather than stayed out. He was being greedy for the sake of it, and using war as a chance to profit. That's callous.

[Bernie Mac]

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

This is modern-day thinking. While it sounds weird to us, feudal lords only paid obligations to their immediate superiors.

That is not true at all, especially not in GRRM's fictional universe as Robert's Rebellion, Dance of the Dragons and some of the Blackfyre wars featured Lords of various regions siding with different sides to the ones their Overlord picked. 

It is not modern day thinking at all, it is something that has gone on for quite some time in Westeros. 

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

By law, only an overlord can rule their subjects.

Which law is this? You are making assumptions about what you think was a real law (and even this you are wrong, there was no set 'law' for the many realms in the middle ages regarding this) and the multitude of untold laws that we have never seen written or said in Westeros. 

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

The King only intervenes when the lord appeals to them, or if there is a dire need to do so, such as in the instance of treason or corruption.

Citation?

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

That's how it worked in real life, and according to The World of Ice and Fire, most competent rulers such as Jaeherys and Tywin make laws consistent, but rule with a light hand.

Where do you get this from about Tywin? We are told that he (and Jaehaerys II before him) undid many of the unpopular laws that Aegon V created. Nothing there about making them consistent. 

Tywin won the approbation of many great lords by repealing what remained of the laws Aegon V had enacted to curb their powers. 

Seems he made the Laws more vague, allowing the Lords the same freedom to do as they pleased they had before Aegon's reforms. This is something GRRM himself touches upon

GRRM: The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power.

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

For the part in red, you give a lot of weight to what is clearly Walder's complete bullshit.

It is not 'complete' bullishit. He did call his banners and Edmure was quickly defeated. 

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

For one thing, the North had mobilised its armies and they are much further away than he is. So he is completely full of shit.

Rivverrun had already been beaten by the time Robb got to the Twins. What is the point in Walder and Lord Mallister sending their troops to a defeated Lord Tully?

And Walder may have wanted to leave the Twins in a better state than Robb left the North, which like the Riverlords who rushed too eagerly to Riverrun, was left exposed. 

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

There's also the fact that as a bannerman, he doesn't get to make the decisions about when and why to join the war.

Sure he does. You are confusing Westeros for an absolute monarchy, it not. Feudal lords had a lot more autonomy and history, both real and imagined Westeros history, is full of examples of feudal lords making decisions that benefit/protect themselves first and foremost. 

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

 

The fact that he withheld his army makes it more likely his overlords will fail - in other words, he is contributing to their eventual defeat.

Had Walder sent his army there all that would be different is that the Frey army would also have been defeated, Jaime would have Frey hostages on top of the ones he already had. 

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Just turning up would have made a difference, and it's worth mentioning that most banner men are not so selfish.

Of course many bannermen are. Most bannermen would put their own House's safety above their 'Overlords' or even the Crown's. 

26 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Even the ones who were loyal to the Iron Throne picked a side rather than stayed out. He was being greedy for the sake of it, and using war as a chance to profit. That's callous.

As was Hoster who joined the war late an who did not pick a side until he agreed a price with Lord Arryn. 

"You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

[Darth Sidious]

Roose Bolton was looking for a chance to usurp the Starks.  Walder Frey is a different case.  Walder and the Freys would have stuck with Robb if the Starks had honored their oaths and married one of the Frey girls.  Their pact would be sealed with the bond of marriage.  The Westerlings are questionable, but they are a poor family sworn to the Lannisters.  The Ws have to make sure they don't get squashed by the titans.   Truth be told, the Westerlings would be in pretty bad shape as soon as Robb takes his hairy northmen back home and leave them undefended against Tywin's anger.   

Making an alliance with Robb will only be safe if the Lannisters are completely wiped out.  The Freys had little choice because Robb arrived at their doorsteps with thousands of armed northmen.  If Walder had refused and the Tullys are still standing when the war ended, there would be hell coming their way for staying neutral, which could be seen from Tully side as the equivalent of siding with the Lannisters.  So when Robb announced his plans to retake the north, those who supported him must have started to panic because Tywin is still alive and hell is coming their way.  It was for the best interest of their families that the Freys and the Westerlings jumped sides.  Robb may have been a good general but he was inadequate as a leader.  

It boils down to this.  The Freys had only one good option after Robb betrayed them and started making stupid decisions.  That was to change sides to ensure their safety and continued wealth.  No sense in risking it all and losing it all for the Starks, who clearly had no respect for the Frey family.   

To some eyes, the Freys will look like they have no honor.   But that's not enough to keep people from doing business with them.  Everybody has to cross the river and the Freys have the only bridge around.  It will be business as usual.  If anything, people will be sure to honor their deals with the Freys from this point forward.  

The Brotherhood will continue to pester the Freys but I hope Walder's bounty hunters can track the outlaws down and put an end to their acts of terrorism.  Nymeria and her pack can be eventually dealt with.  Walder just needs to open his purse more generously and pretty soon the wolf pack will be distant memory.  I think if Roose Bolton had stayed he might have had an enjoyable time hunting down Nymeria.  He didn't have the bastard's girls but he can easily get the services of other tracker hounds to find the wild pack.

[Blackfish Tully]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are giving up hypotheticals, I am only speaking of what we have seen. He has done nothing in the Riverlands and has allowed Jaime to install the Castellan who rules those lands. You are right, anything can happen, that is why it is pointless using it as evidence. We can only use what is canon. 

 

just about everything we speculate on is hypothetical. we only see things through the POV characters so a great deal of information is hidden from us . I just have a hart time believing that the guy who is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands is somehow not interested in what happens in the Riverlands , That just would make very little sense to me . 

[Blackfish Tully]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

It also makes it a lot harder to defeat them as they can afford to hire more soldiers than any other Riverlord, perhaps them all combined right now. Look at how many Frey's we see in the aftermath of the Red Wedding, 2k at Riverrun, 1.6k in the North, at least 400 at the Twins, enough to hold Seagard, an unknown amount at Darry, members like Arwood and the Haighs in the Saltpans regions and this is after the losses the Frey's would have taken in the war of the five kings (the battle of the Green Fork will have wiped out at least 500). 

 

the 1.6k of Freys in the North are probably never coming back . How many men that are with the Freys now will switch their loyalty the moment they start to show any weakness? The 11k that were with Edmure in the Battle of the Fords are still in the Riverlands and they are just scattered right now but that does not mean that can't be reorganized into an army at some point . Not to mention the 11k were not the only men in the Riverlands at that time so to think that there are only 5k soldiers left in the Riverlands seems way low .