Frey Kings

House Frey should be respected (part 2)

202 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Rorge wasn't brought to fight dogs.

Man this is like "Who's on first" but the stadium lights have been turned off and I'm leaving the parking lot.

 

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It's good to see this topic getting a part 2.

The Freys made something good out of a bad situation.  Good for them anyway.  Robb put them in a bad situation and the Freys found a way to come out for the better.  They handled it without honor but Robb also lacked honor.  Walder and Robb both behaved dishonorably.  To downplay what Robb did is too much Stark bias.  The Freys were forced into the fight because of something Catelyn did.  Catelyn turned a family spat into war because she wanted to take justice into her own hands instead of taking it up with Robert.  That Robb disrespected and broke his promise to Walder is serious.  Many Freys died for Robb and for Robb to throw that loyalty away for a piece of booty is deplorable.  Listen, I understand that many died in the RW and that is too bad.  But there is no question that Robb deserved what happened to him because of the world they live in.  He should have known better but he was stupid and selfish.  

The north will remember but outside the north the RW will be forgiven and forgotten.  The north is not in a position to give meaning to their anger.  They lost and that is that.  The Starks is one of the losers in the War of the Five Kings.  The Freys and the Boltons schemed their way to jump to the winning side after Robb proved himself undeserving of the Frey's respect.   It's dishonorable.  I won't say it isn't.  But Robb deserved to get stabbed in the back for what he did to the Freys. 

 

Edited by Only 89 selfies today

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14 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It would be one thing if Cat had simply died from some disease or an accident but for her to be brutally murdered has to have some affect on Littlefinger . She was the love of his life and for him to just ignore the fact she was murdered by Freys just seems hard to believe. 

Was she the love of his life? Then why did she set her up to fall? Littlefinger played a major part in the destruction of both her families and her death and he has shown no remorse in the fact. 

He may have loved her as a teenager, we have no idea if he still loved her after she and her father rejected him. His heart may well be full of hate for her. 

14 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

. Letting the Lannister's do the hard work of getting the Riverlands under control and watching them burn up their resources in doing it  while he stays in the Vale and conserves his resources and bides his time is exactly what you would expect Littlefinger to do .

Sure, but he has done nothing. Not appointed his own man to rule, not get in touch with the various Riverlords like Sansa has witnessed him do with many of the Vale lords. 

As I have pointed out in each reply to you, from what we have seen he has done nothing. 

14 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Littlefinger will wait till the Lannisters army is out of the Riverlands and the Riverlords have had enough of the Freys "ruling" them before he makes his move ,

The Freys are not ruling them, the Castellan that Jaime has appointed, Bonifer Hasty, will be. That means when Dany lands in Westeros one of the rulers of the realms is going to be very sympathetic towards her. 

14 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

i would bet that he has plenty of sources in the Riverlands feeding him information so he can exploit the ongoing situation to his advantage when he is good and ready .  

He may well do, but unlike the Vale, were Sansa HAS witnessed his sources and his plans she has seen nothing of him doing the same in the Riverlands. 

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1 hour ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

 But Robb deserved to get stabbed in the back for what he did to the Freys. 

And Rickard deserved to be cooked inside his armour, and Alester Florent deserved to be burned alive, etc.

Again I am stunned by the level of wickedness of some people on this forum…:wacko: And, oh surprise this nastiness is always turned against the Starks… Obviously the Red Wedding has caused an orgasm to some people…

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10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Man this is like "Who's on first" but the stadium lights have been turned off and I'm leaving the parking lot.

 

OK, just don't say that Biter is worse than Rorge.

Edited by Kandrax

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11 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

It's good to see this topic getting a part 2.

The Freys made something good out of a bad situation.  Good for them anyway.  Robb put them in a bad situation and the Freys found a way to come out for the better.  They handled it without honor but Robb also lacked honor.  Walder and Robb both behaved dishonorably.

Please don't attempt to equate Robb and Walder Frey's actions or to justify Walder's actions on Robb's.  Robb foreswore himself by marrying Jeyne and in restitution Edmure Tully, Walder's liege Lord consents to marry one of Walder's daughters in Robb's place.  That is called making amends and restoring the Freys' slighted honour.  Walder murdered Robb and a number of his bannermen while guests at his wedding and massacred thousands of soldiers.  That's the single biggest, largest scale betrayal in story and shocks Westeros with it's breaking of the taboo of quasi-sacred guestright.

Also, Walder simply intends to be on the winning side.  It's Stannis's defeat on the Blackwater, the Tyrell-Lannister Alliance, the sack of Winterfell and the Greyjoy occupation of the North that cause him to turn sides.  Sure, he had an agreement with Robb and Robb broke it but given how the war went I imagine he was both furious to be slighted but also delighted to be given a reason to justify switching sides.  It would have happened anyway, he has no love for either the Starks or Tullys and like Bolton is simply an opportunist.

11 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

To downplay what Robb did is too much Stark bias.  The Freys were forced into the fight because of something Catelyn did.  Catelyn turned a family spat into war because she wanted to take justice into her own hands instead of taking it up with Robert.

The Freys had a choice.  When Catelyn appealed for help at the Crossroads Inn she got no help from the Frey soldiers there.  When Robb turned up at the Twins Walder could simply have raised his drawbridge and turned him away, his defensive position was pretty much impregnable.  But he was persuaded by marriage alliances that it was in his interest to join them.  And when the war went the wrong way he was happy enough to make a marriage alliance with the Lannisters rather than the Tullys.  It's cynical calculation and ruthless pragmatism but it absolutely does not justify the Red Wedding.  And the Red Wedding is so over the top that although it may give them a temporary short-term gain it will ruin them in the mid to long term.

11 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

That Robb disrespected and broke his promise to Walder is serious.  Many Freys died for Robb and for Robb to throw that loyalty away for a piece of booty is deplorable.  Listen, I understand that many died in the RW and that is too bad.  But there is no question that Robb deserved what happened to him because of the world they live in.  He should have known better but he was stupid and selfish. 

Yes it's serious and Robb made a very bad decision.  He should have left Jeyne Westerling whatever the personal repercussions for her (see the Florent girl Robert deflowered at Stannis's wedding being so tarnished and unmarriagiable that despite her high birth she had to be married to one of her father's household knights) but to say that "he deserved what happened to him" and brush aside the betrayal and slaughter at the RW as "too bad" is pretty ugly reasoning.  The marriage of Edmure to Roslin gives Frey a match he should be happy with.  Of course the calculating old devil has already decided the Lannisters are going to win and that it's time to jump ship and take revenge out of all proportion to the deed.

11 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The north will remember but outside the north the RW will be forgiven and forgotten.  The north is not in a position to give meaning to their anger.  They lost and that is that.  The Starks is one of the losers in the War of the Five Kings.

Outside the North?  The BWB are busy hanging any Frey they can get their hands on.  The Freys may have gained Riverrun but they have destroyed their reputation.  Even their supposed allies, Jaime and Tyrion, see that and despise them for it.  If Tommen sat the throne for 60 years and the Freys had the opportunity to cement their position over a long period of time I dare say they would come out of it as Walder intended.  But do you really think GRRM has set things up to go that way?  Surely you don't.  The Lannisters will lose the throne in short order, the Freys will lose all the men they sent North, their forces in the Riverlands will be harassed by the BWB, Jaime has demanded they hand over all their hostages so they will lose any leverage over the River Lords, I wouldnt bet on them holding Riverrun for very long. 

Yes the Starks lost the Wot5K and the Lannister-Frey-Bolton-Tyrell alliance has the upper hand for the moment but that is already going south with the arrival of the Golden Company and the challenge to the Boltons in the North. Expect things to change very quickly and I wouldn't it past GRRM to have Walder watch all his schemes for his House turn to ruin before he finally croaks.  In fact I fully expect it.  The Freys have made too many enemies in the North and Riverlands and as their friends are weakened or destroyed one by one they are going to fall from grace as spectacularly as they rose.

11 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

 The Freys and the Boltons schemed their way to jump to the winning side after Robb proved himself undeserving of the Frey's respect unable to win the war.   It's dishonorable.  I won't say it isn't.  But Robb didn't deserved to get stabbed in the back shot full of crossbow bolts and stabbed through the heart by a power hungry subordinate and all his men butchered while guests at a wedding and then have his corpse mutilated and his direwolf's head sown on to his decapitated body and his own head likewise sewn on to the body of his direwolf for what he did to the Freys.

Fixed that for you.  At least we can agree that it was not honourable.  The weird thing is you acknowledge that but still pretend it was deserved.  Do you really believe that or is it just the unfortunate consequence of deciding to support the Freys that you have to find ways to justify something that is unjustifiable?

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On February 14, 2018 at 1:40 AM, Kandrax said:

Well-adjusted? He was forced to fight dogs and bears cubs until he went insane.

Huh. That's a good point. The man would be more seen more insane than evil and we cannot honestly hold him to the same degree of blame for his actions as we would Tywin. Rorge created this monster thus Biter's sins our his master's. So I will change the question from Biter-Rorge.

Honestl, love him or hate him we know the suffering Tywin brings upon is most of the time in consequence of his plans to better his family's place in the world.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Huh. That's a good point. The man would be more seen more insane than evil and we cannot honestly hold him to the same degree of blame for his actions as we would Tywin. Rorge created this monster thus Biter's sins our his master's. So I will change the question from Biter-Rorge.

At some point, someone will realize that entire post about Biter being possibly well-adjusted was a joke. I had a dream it would be so.

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3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

At some point, someone will realize that entire post about Biter being possibly well-adjusted was a joke. I had a dream it would be so.

I didn't miss the joke. I merely conceded that I was wrong to use biter and Tywin as comparison for a seemingly immoral man doing less damage than another man whose done far woes because he was able to but intrinsically is not worse morally than the other. I made a mistake. I merely am trying to  awknowlege it. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Was she the love of his life? Then why did she set her up to fall? Littlefinger played a major part in the destruction of both her families and her death and he has shown no remorse in the fact. 

 

Littlefinger may be  a sociopath so he's not going to respond to situations like a normal person . Whether he hated her or loved her there is no doubt that she was one of the major figures in his life , he risked a duel with the much bigger , older and pretty crazy Brandon Stark for her and he could have easily been killed during that duel so clearly he has or had major feelings for her .  I have a hard time believing that he is OK with a Frey brutally murdering her the way they did . 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

As I have pointed out in each reply to you, from what we have seen he has done nothing. 

 

The only thing that we have "seen" in the last two book from Littlefinger is a couple of short conversations he's had with Sansa . We have zero idea what Littlefinger is planning and if he has been making plans in the Riverlands we would no idea about them unless he decided to share them with Sansa and he really has no need to do that . Littlefinger could be planning a full scale attack on the Twins and we would have no idea about it . 

 

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

The Freys are not ruling them, the Castellan that Jaime has appointed, Bonifer Hasty, will be. That means when Dany lands in Westeros one of the rulers of the realms is going to be very sympathetic towards her. 

 

The Freys are pretty much ignoring that Littlefinger is their Lord Paramount so why would the listen to Hasty who is just the Castellan of Harrenhall? and does not have nearly enough men to enforce anything he wants to do outside of Harrenhall. The Freys are the de facto rulers of the Riverlands. 

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11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Littlefinger may be  a sociopath so he's not going to respond to situations like a normal person . Whether he hated her or loved her there is no doubt that she was one of the major figures in his life , he risked a duel with the much bigger , older and pretty crazy Brandon Stark for her and he could have easily been killed during that duel so clearly he has or had major feelings for her .  I have a hard time believing that he is OK with a Frey brutally murdering her the way they did . 

You are talking about his feeling for her 20 years ago. The teenage Littlefinger is more than likely very different than the adult Littlefinger who played an integral part in destroying Cat's life. 

 

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

The only thing that we have "seen" in the last two book from Littlefinger is a couple of short conversations he's had with Sansa .

We've seen quite a lot of his dealing with the Vale lords in both AFFC and the sample chapters. Far more than a couple of conversations and it has all been Valecentric. 

 

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

We have zero idea what Littlefinger is planning and if he has been making plans in the Riverlands we would no idea about them unless he decided to share them with Sansa and he really has no need to do that .

He's sharing his plans about the Vale. Why is he allowing her to witness that and not the Riverlands?

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Littlefinger could be planning a full scale attack on the Twins and we would have no idea about it . 

He could also be planning on flying to the moon or turning himself into a purple giraffe. The things he could be doing are endless, I'm focusssing one what we know he is doing, anything else is baseless speculation. 

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

The Freys are pretty much ignoring that Littlefinger is their Lord Paramount

How so?

Since Emmon was told that Littlefinger would be their Lord Paramount how have the Freys ignored this?

 

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On 15.2.2018. at 2:33 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

But Robb deserved to get stabbed in the back for what he did to the Freys. 

 

No, he deserved to be arrested for asking ironborns to help him.

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Since Emmon was told that Littlefinger would be their Lord Paramount how have the Freys ignored this?

 

You may want to take a look at the following conversation . Lord Emmon sure does not act like somebody who is going to be respecting or paying attention to Littlefinger's commands . I doubt Lord Walder or Black Walder will give Littlefinger any respect or loyalty either . The Freys consider themselves rulers of the Riverlands and if Littlefinger wants to take control there he is going to have to do it with force . 
 
 
To be sure," Lord Emmon said. "Ser Jaime, your lord father's faith in me was well placed, you shall see. I mean to be firm but fair with my new vassals. Blackwood and Bracken, Jason Mallister, Vance and Piper, they shall learn that they have a just overlord in Emmon Frey. My father as well, yes. He is the Lord of the Crossing, but I am the Lord of Riverrun. A son has a duty to obey his father, true, but a bannerman must obey his overlord."
Oh, gods be good. "You are not his overlord, ser. Read your parchment. You were granted Riverrun with its lands and incomes, no more. Petyr Baelish is the Lord Paramount of the Trident. Riverrun will be subject to the rule of Harrenhal."
That did not please Lord Emmon. "Harrenhal is a ruin, haunted and accursed," he objected, "and Baelish . . . the man is a coin counter, no proper lord, his birth . . ."

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

He's sharing his plans about the Vale. Why is he allowing her to witness that and not the Riverlands?

 

 

Maybe because he does not want her to know what he's doing in the Riverlands? Littlefinger probably has plans going on in every part of Westeroes and Essos but i'm sure he's only telling Sansa a tiny part of it just enough to keep her on his string , she's his captive not his partner . 

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

He's sharing his plans about the Vale. Why is he allowing her to witness that and not the Riverlands?

 

 

Because he needs her help in the Vale but not in the Riverlands , don't forget that he wants her isolated from her family , as  far as Sansa knows the only living family she has besides Jon Snow is Edmure and the Blackfish so he does not want her thinking of the Riverlands . 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He could also be planning on flying to the moon or turning himself into a purple giraffe. The things he could be doing are endless, I'm focusssing one what we know he is doing, anything else is baseless speculation. 

 

I don't think that it's a baseless speculation that Littlefinger who is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands may be making plans to actually do something with the realm that he is the ruler of . It would be hard to believe that he would just completely ignore the Riverlands . He is the first new Lord Paramount in hundreds of years and he's going to not even try to rule his lands? that defies belief.  

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4 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I don't think that it's a baseless speculation that Littlefinger who is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands may be making plans to actually do something with the realm that he is the ruler of . It would be hard to believe that he would just completely ignore the Riverlands . He is the first new Lord Paramount in hundreds of years and he's going to not even try to rule his lands? that defies belief.  

Harrenhall was merely a means to an end: it gave him a Lordship and the ability to marry Lysa Arryn.  He is smart enough to know that any attempt to rule in the Riverlands is beset with even more problems than in the Vale where he at least has custody of Robert Arryn and can rule as Lord Protector. Might he try something later down the line regards the Riverlands?  Yes, I believe that is possible but he has his hands full in the Vale and you have to wonder whether whoever sits the IT would want an overmighty bannerman controlling two regions in close proximity to KL.  Plus LF's MO is to operate from the shadows and thrive on chaos: holding power and trying to maintain it directly reverses the situation and makes him a target for the likes of Emmon Frey (or more likley Black Walder) to aim at.

It's equally likely he sees Harrenhall and the title of Lord Paramount of the Riverlands as a poisoned chalice or at least a white elephant he will ignore while ruling indirectly through Robert Arryn in the Vale.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's equally likely he sees Harrenhall and the title of Lord Paramount of the Riverlands as a poisoned chalice or at least a white elephant he will ignore while ruling indirectly through Robert Arryn in the Vale.

why concentrate all his energy on ruling the Vale through Robert Arryn and completely ignore the realm that he is actually Lord Paramount of?

that just makes no sense . Littlefinger has higher ambitions then just being the power behind the Vale and it would be hard to believe that he is just ignoring the Riverlands . Why not let the Lannisters use their resources and energy straightening out the Riverlands and allow the Freys to get complacent before he makes his move . Being in control of the Riverlands and the power behind the Vale would  make Littlefinger a major player for whatever happens going forward .  

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

 Plus LF's MO is to operate from the shadows and thrive on chaos: holding power and trying to maintain it directly reverses the situation and makes him a target for the likes of Emmon Frey (or more likley Black Walder) to aim at.

I

He's stepped out of the shadows in the Vale and made himself Lord Protector and faced down the Lords Declarant including Bronze Yohn so i have a hard time believing that he would be afraid of the Freys . 

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On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 11:19 AM, Frey Kings said:

They rose from nothing and didn't owe anyone blind allegiance. No legendary or historic roots like some other great houses in Westeros. But they should be proud that a commoner was able to rise to royalty and the the rest of the royalty class didn't accept them and continue to spit on them!!! Sure there are some bad apples but when you are sh_tted on for your entire existence what else would you expect?

 

Here's to House Frey!!! 

Didn't owe allegiance? They swore oaths to their liege lord The Tullys of Riverrun, so ummm there's that. Also no Frey has ever been Royalty, Nobility yes, Royalty no. Royalty means you're a prince, princess, king, or queen. The house of Frey has never been Kings of any land as far as I'm aware of. Lords are nobility not royalty.

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14 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Because he needs her help in the Vale but not in the Riverlands , don't forget that he wants her isolated from her family , as  far as Sansa knows the only living family she has besides Jon Snow is Edmure and the Blackfish so he does not want her thinking of the Riverlands . 

 

I don't think that it's a baseless speculation that Littlefinger who is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands may be making plans to actually do something with the realm that he is the ruler of . It would be hard to believe that he would just completely ignore the Riverlands . He is the first new Lord Paramount in hundreds of years and he's going to not even try to rule his lands? that defies belief.  

You know given his dependacy it might seem wise to bind her with a common cause that isn't purely survival-if little finger plans to exact vengeance upon the Freys well I'm sure telling Sansa will get her to trust him more.

Catelyn again I fail was a challenge to little finger; she was the lord Paramount's first daughter and getting her would have been a vindication. 

If he in any valued her outside of being trophy he wouldn't have bragged about taking her maidenhead; something that would surely sully her honor. At the very least try to get in contact with her before Ned's departure to king's landing.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

why concentrate all his energy on ruling the Vale through Robert Arryn and completely ignore the realm that he is actually Lord Paramount of? 

Likely because as the only son of a minor House he does not have the support and structure to rule two of the seven kingdoms. He is from the Vale, had considerable influence at Gulltown and must have had connections with Arryn's entourage when he was Hand. It also helps that he is gaining power and influence in the Vale by giving away Arryn lands. 

Plus the Riverlands has been severely screwed by the war. It is not really in Littlefinger's interests to buy and win their influence as they are depleted. The Vale, as a consequence of the war of the five Kings, is now one of the most powerful realms and in a real position to advance whatever nefarious plans Littlefinger still has, the Riverlands is not and will not be for some time after Winter. 

 

17 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Maybe because he does not want her to know what he's doing in the Riverlands? Littlefinger probably has plans going on in every part of Westeroes and Essos but i'm sure he's only telling Sansa a tiny part of it just enough to keep her on his string , she's his captive not his partner . 

And maybe she does not witness anything because, as Occam's Razor would suggest, he has no large plans for the war torn Riverlands. House Bracken and Blackwood, two of the most powerful Houses in the Riverlands, are down to under a thousand combined. 

And why would he allow her to witness, and even teach her, his dealings in the Vale but leave her out of the ones in the Riverlands?

 

17 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 I don't think that it's a baseless speculation that Littlefinger who is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands may be making plans to actually do something with the realm that he is the ruler of . It would be hard to believe that he would just completely ignore the Riverlands . He is the first new Lord Paramount in hundreds of years and he's going to not even try to rule his lands? that defies belief.  

But that is what has happened, has it not? He has been the ruler of Harrenhal for three books and has done nothing for them. Most likely because the Riverlands, in it is current position, is of no help to Littlefinger. 

 

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