Sorcerers and Swords

[Back door hodor]

I think bloodraven most likely got dark sister from aerys I, fellow student of sorcery, and who br first served as hand for.

As to who gets dark sister next depends at great deal on where it is. If it is at the wall for example I find it hard to imagine a scenario in which Brianne becomes it's owner, just as if it's collecting dust in a basement of the red keep with dragon skulls, it's hard to envision Jon or Mel obtaining it. 

So I'll t forth 4 guesses based on location

1.) If it's in kings landing I can see Arya obtaining it, her mumery and faceless men skills giving her the sorcery cred, and the fact that many people on her list are in kings landing, which provides a reason for her to go there. The delegation from kings landing in bravo in the mercy chapter also could provide her with a way to go back to westeros covertly, by killing a member of the entourage and assuming thier place(face).

2.) If it's at the wall I think it gets very tricky. I don't think it would be Jon, as he is already the owner of a VS sword, so baring a reveal that longclaw is in fact already dark sister(which I don not think is the case, based on longclaws size) Jon can in my opinion be ruled out. My guess in this case than is Val, for no other reason than I think DS's owner will be female and I don't have a better guess. Gonna say for the record I don't think Mel will get it, and that I also think that this us the least likely location for the sword.

3.) If it's in the cave with BR it simply has to be meera, there is no one else, well unless she becomes meerapaste, than I guess bran would take it, or it would stay there.

4.) It is possible that it was left in kings landing and than later obtained by varys/Illyrio, possibly during the confussion of the regime change. If this is the case and they have it hidden in pentos,I could see Dani obtaining it, she, more than any other character, knows the price of sorcery.

[Lollygag]

Cersei is tied to sorcery and black magic through Maggy the Frog and Qyburn.

The Westerlands has quite a history of sorcery and black magic (Maggy the Frog is a Westerlandser) and Cersei is a screaming parallel for Ellyn Reyne, a rumored sorceress. With Qyburn in her arc, Cersei's already become tied to black magic. The Westerlands is especially tied to necromancy, and in Cersei's arc we have Qyburn practicing necromancy.

The unabridged TWOIAF Westerlands chapter: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

Lann the Clever never called himself a king, as best we know, though some tales told centuries later have conferred that style on him posthumously.  The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed ‘the Lion’ or ‘the Golden,’ for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that House, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years.

King Morgon was supposedly a necromancer of terrible power, and it is written that as he lay dying, he told the Lannisters who had slain him (amongst them three of Loreon’s own sons) that he would return from the grave to wreak vengeance upon them one and all.  To prevent that, Loreon had Morgon’s body hacked into a hundred pieces and fed to his lions.  In a grisly aftermath, however, those selfsame lions broke loose two years later in the bowels of Casterly Rock, and slew the king’s sons, just as the Hooded King had promised.

…

[Sidebar: The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army.  But it was lost a century later, when Tommen II sailed to ruined Valyria with the intention of plundering whatever wealth and sorcery remained after the Doom.

…

[Sidebar: The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister.  Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold’s sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them.

{Implying that Casterly Rock gold may itself be spelled hence why it cannot be used by Valyria).

…

Lord Gerold’s aged fool, an acerbic hunchback called Lord Toad, was heard to say, “Lady Ellyn must surely be a sorceress, for she has made it rain inside the Rock all year.” 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

How about this people, as possible candidates to become future wielders of notable swords? ->

Daenerys Targaryen - Dark Sister (she's not exactly a sorcerer, nevertheless she did managed to hatch three dragon eggs).

Jon Snow - Lightbringer (the Dawn, white sword of Daynes).

Rhaego Drogo-Targaryen - Blackfyre (if Rhaego is alive, then I think that he is now in Asshai with Quaithe, and that he will be champion of Lord of Light, something like crusader. So he will be both - a warrior and a sorcerer. And as the Prince that was promised, he will eventually become ruler of 7K. Though that's if he's alive )

Dany doesn't know how to use a sword. Jon has Longclaw (dawn isn't lightbringer) and Rhaego is dead 

[Lollygag]

As we see with Mirri, Marwin, Qyburn, Freehold sorcerers, Shiera who was bookish, etc, witchcraft and sorcery are specialized knowledge and I think that is a very important distinction from simply being magical in the way the Starks are skinchangers.

I don't think magic which just happens (skinchanging) is interchangeable with magic which happens only when one has acquired and practiced at special knowledge for years and years. As magical as Bran or Dany are, they've not studied any of the knowledge which has been attributed to other sorcerers in the series.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Cridefea said:

LoL! yes I LOVE facts. But this time I wasn't searching for the origin of DS (yes, I would love to XD). What I meant it's that it's always called "Visenya's sword" and Martin never used the word Targ for DS....This is something really different from the other swords, iirc. We call it targ sword only because they used it, but we don't know if this is the basis for wielding DS.  It's used by sorcerers, could be this the criteria? The targs was the only remaining "magical" family in westeros. Bloodraven wield it even he doesn't like swords, maybe there are other reasons. And it's the only one designed for a woman. I think it's special .... just that! It could be important for the future...

I agree! there is not so many people who can use DS ... She is one of the best candidate.

YOU READ IT HERE 1st!!!  

You're right and I apologize for not following your meaning right off the bat.   I really should know better by now, you never make an innocent statement!   Please forgive me, Cridefea.   Dark Sister is not referred to as a Targaryan sword in the books.   It is definitely called Visenya's sword.   You have to go to Wiki and other places to even understand it's a Targ VS Sword. 

Let me throw this out for your mind to ponder...It wasn't a Targ sword until Visenya held it.   That would render it non-ancestral and perhaps not Targish to the extent Blackfyre is.  I'm thinking it really is a sorcerer's sword and I already imagine it was some dark teacher who only tutored Visenya.   I thought of this hours ago---I've had lots of time to let it grow in my imagination!   The Targs were certainly the only dragon riding fire magic family in Westeros.   The Velaryons and Celtigars were not dragon riders despite being Valyrian.   Perhaps it works like a divining rod, searching out it's sorcerers?   This little conversation here has me narrowing down that future hero to 3 likely candidates, my friend.   Really nice catch about this mysterious sword, Cridefea.  

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

This isn't directly on the topic of sorcery, but I've recently started to wonder whether leaders who have archers at their disposal are part of the puppet motif: something about pulling strings. So Quentyn Ball was killed by one of Bloodraven's bow men at the Red Grass Field, but Bloodraven pulls the strings of his puppets so this "kill" is credited to him. Crossbows are operated with a crank, though, so I'm not sure they are part of the same "pulling strings" symbolism.

More to the point, this would mean that Bloodraven getting and keeping possession of Dark Sister has some value to him other than its use as a combat weapon. The dynastic significance is nice, of course, but it seems like Bloodraven gave up pretty early any personal concern about proximity to power and instead worked to keep the "rightful" Targ in power. Is that similar to the function Visenya fulfilled for her brother / husband? Alyssa was trying to protect her son's life and his claim to the throne when she took the sword away.

"Fighting skill," as you put it in the OP, may result in the bestowing of the second sword, or it may be that every Targ monarch needs someone to have his back. The second sword could be for the defender of the king or heir. I imagine sorcery skills would also be valuable to a person with that kind of responsibility. Interesting that Dark Sister went missing and Aerys was eventually murdered.

You're our very own personal symbolism sorceress, Seams.   I bolded the parts that struck me dead between the eyes.  Yes, we've mused about the possibility that Bloodraven may yet have some use for his bitchen Sorcerers Sword.  Be danged if I have any real thread to follow here unless you don't mind my taking your words back full circle.   Could Dark Sister represent his loyalty and faith and protection?   Could this exquisite Valyrian Steel be a torch or sorts, to pass on to the next protector?  Visenya is a hard 1 for me.   She was very good to Aegon, but not to his heir.  She wanted her son to rule and she pulled it off for a while.   It is very interesting that Dark Sister found her way back to the real heir's fold.  Yes, Dear One, I think you have made a brilliant connection here.   I'm thinking the entire arrangement between Aegon and his sister wives.   He loved the one who was not a warrior and his warrior wife was the one who protected him.   Really nice, Seams.  

 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Faera said:

@Curled Finger, once again you do what I can't find the courage to do - start a thread with a new idea! Great topic! Love this idea of Dark Sister being like this dark, magical sword to be used by a fantasy style "Dark/Black/Magical" Knight.

What you say is interesting. As far as I can estimate, Dark Sister either had two fates: destroyed at Summerhall or it is still with Bloodraven and he has it in his cave. It presents the question of whether the Targaryens would allow their ancestral sword to go with him to the Night's Watch or not especially since the reason he was there was for a crime. Yet we don't hear about it again after him so... it is odd. 

If it is around, it is in one of the two (maybe three) possible locations that to me don't lead to either of them having the sword. While a resurrected, dreamer and skinchanger Jon or a Faceless man Arya might be considered "sorcerers", they have their own weapons of significance. I know I'm being overly romantic here but I feel Dark Sister shouldn't just be a cool weapon for one of our favourite characters or [insert Targ here] to swing around. I would prefer Dark Sister to fall into the hands of a character without a named "companion" sword. An unlikely wielder. 

If it was destroyed or is in pieces somewhere in the Red Keep or Dorne, then if it reappears it will likely be as an all-new weapon and we won't fully realise it. 

So, let's assume Bloodraven has it and it is still in his weirwood root cave. That gives us four possibilities for wielders, all of whom are in some ways magically inclined one way or the other. I have obsessed thought way too much a lot about the swords from the crypts of Winterfell for a long time and whether they will ever be used, like Chekhov's gun, or used a promptly broken, leading to the need for convenient Dark Sister.

Jojen is unlikely as we have never seen him wield a weapon though we can't rule him out in life of death situation as he is the only one of the gang unarmed. Plus, he is a type of "sorcerer" with his dreams.

Bran-via-Hodor or Hodor might make sense. However, I do feel that if Hodor's sword were to break from him using it, he would probably just panic and curl up in a ball as he often does, so I feel it would have to be our significantly braver Bran to find an alternative weapon for them. Bran, as you said, is very much a type of sorcerer and Hodor is becoming "one of his skins", making them more and more like one entity.

Hodor, surprisingly enough, is pretty married to this rotten old sword he took from the crypts:

His sword is very old and rusted. Even when Barb and Theon go down to the crypts to note the four missing swords, Theon notes, "Streaks of rust remained to show where it had been." So, it might well break not just against an Other but simply from the stress of hacking at wights to pieces. We know that whenever Bran uses Hodor's body, he goes for Hodor's sword, which is in the gentle giant's belt:

I wonder if this sword will break sooner rather than later due to day-to-day play fighting, leading to "Hodor's" new sword being Uncle Brandon's sword (Bran's), embelic of them becoming one person.

However, if Brandon's sword breaks too in a crucial confrontation with an Other this could lead to "convenient Dark Sister". It has long been a headcanon of mine that if "dragonsteel" does refer to Valyrian steel that it will be someone in Bran's team who will demonstrate this fact. If the Other has already destroyed one, two or even all three of the crypt swords the gang brought with them, he might get a little cocky like the ones who taunt poor ol' Waymar Royce in the beginning, only to get the shock of his life when Dark Sister is used.

Thematically, for Bran to use Dark Sister while using Hodor's body to wield cements the dark-sorcerer aspect of that sword perfectly, especially if the use of Hodor in this conflict somehow leads to him getting seriously hurt or even dying. Using a sword that has been used for a lot of injustice and evil while doing what is arguably a dark and evil act of taking autonomy from another human being might not be totally lost on Bran.

Finally, there is Meera. Logically, she is the one who seems most likely to use the sword aside from Bran-in-Hodor. While not a sorcerer per se I have always seem the prized crannogmen abilities to "breathe mud", "fly through trees" and have those super sensitive senses are almost super-natural. Besides, she is the daughter of a sort-of sorcerer character , Howland (his name is probably a reference to Wizard Howl from DJW's books) who doesn't have traditional greenseer abilities but, in fact, seems like a more complete version of what Meera herself might one day become.

As for "why Dark sister?" In the same way Hodor's sword is too old, Meera's sword - Lord Rickard Stark's sword - seems to have never been used by her because it is far too heavy:

She always uses her slender, three-pronged spear even when fighting the wights. In a life or death situation, if her spear is broken or destroyed, Rickard's sword will not make for a good alternative. Dark Sister, a smaller sword made for a woman's build, is a much better alternative.

Plus, it is possible that at some point she might take the sharp, sharp sword from the unruly Hodor (or Bran-in-Hodor). This probably reading too much into it but I'll leave this as food for thought:

In conclusion, I think both ideas of how Dark Sister could be employed in the Bran storyline if BR has it could be used in tandem. As I said, it makes sense in terms of your observations of a sorcerer - especially one using "dark arts" - wielding the weapon. Bran is destined to be the next "wizard" to succeed Bloodraven as "a wizard, dreamer... last greenseer" who himself was the last wielder of Dark Sister.

However, if his use of the sword is tied intrinsically to his use of Hodor, and that ends badly, then he might choose to give up the sword to someone more deserving and who does not conform to these images of darkness. This might be an alternative way Meera gains use of the sword. It is more suitable for her body and she is anything but dark -- in many respects she is a symbol of light and love for Bran. In other words, she might be the "bright" sister to counteract the Dark Sister.

...OK, I'll stop now. 

Ah Faera!  Did you see the lousy job I did from my phone?   I dedicate all of that to you.   Now then, as I've said a million times, it doesn't take courage to speak up in a book club.   We're all here for the same reason, Dearheart.  I seriously doubt this is an original idea.    I just assume nothing is, but still enjoy the conversation.  It's easy to refer folks back to a previous topic, but it doesn't give me the chance to investigate the subject with my contemporaries.   See what we're learning here?  

Destroyed at Summerhall.   Buzzkill!   I'm thinking as a legitimized Targaryan bastard, BR had every right to Dark Sister, crime or no.  I don't think a man can be stripped of his arms, can he?  Jeor got to keep Longclaw and I've wondered if that wasn't a direct clue to Dark Sister's fate.  As to sorcerers, I think Jon and Arya and Bran all qualify as far as their magical abilities are concerned.   But that's why I brought them up--to see what the general consensus is.   In our last massive swords topic--gads had to be at least a year ago--it occurred to me that Alleras could be the perfect candidate for hero to wield Dark Sister--archer, sorcerer, dark sister.   Miss Meera Reed has always been my front runner though.   In my world there are 12 swords even though some have been lost or unseen for a very long time.   I have faith they will reappear in due course.   Thanks to some invaluable conversation with @OtherFromAnotherMother and @Cridefeamy most recent list of hero companions has to be close to 40 now.   No, I'm not getting any closer at all.   This topic is an effort to bounce some ideas off the book club in hopes of narrowing my heroes down.   

As to your swords from the crypts, have you ever thought 1 of those swords could be the original Ice?   We've had so many discussions about the swords I know the swords taken from the crypts have come up, but I don't think any of them are Dark Sister.  Jojen, Bran/Hodor, Meera--all check.   Love the Bran & Hodor stuff.   I think Hodor's sword is very special--maybe not Ice, but some legendary Stark King of Winter's sword imbued with it's own magic that will undoubtedly break just as you describe.   Lots to think about there.   I love it that you still love OLC!  Meera has some sort of magic, I'm sure of it.   

Faera, I could read your thoughts all night and come back tomorrow to learn even more from them.  That was a great set of scenarios you offered up at the altar of the magic swords.   

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Well met mi amigo!  "Our blades are sharp".

Great call on Varys being the first in the series to be described as a sorcerer. I must say, I firmly believe he is an avid student of the acrcane. As daft as it seems now, on my first read through I was damned sure The Spider was, in fact, skinchanging spiders.

The Dragonknight might well have dabbled in sorcery; look at some of his associates - dependant on how close he really was with each of them, several of his contemporaries may have introduced Aemon to the dark arts;

He is the son of the mysterious Larra Rogare, who's Lyseni culture might have taught her a thing or two about old Valyrian spells. She left when Aemon was young, but there's always the chance a good old glass candle or the like was involved.

A contemporary of Baelor, who's snake charming story, obsession with the Gods and apparent madness could certainly have some mystic origins.

How about the Dragonknight's old war buddy, the exceptionally well travelled Oakenfist. As a captain extraordinaire, Lord Allyn would have no doubt have visited many a port that raised his eyebrow, as well as been privy to all manner of sailors tales about this and that. 

Cregan Stark, of whom Aemon claimed "I've never faced a finer swordsman". Years before, Cregan had signed that shadowy "Pact of Ice and Fire", which certainly sounds like something of prophetic/magic origin. The pact was never realised, but years later "The Old Man of The North" would gain a great deal of respect from another dragon, this time, the highly popular Dragonknight. Makes you wonder what the two might have discussed - great warriors in the series have been shown to somewhat warm to each other.

There's also the matter of Aemon's status as Mystery Knight, when he donned the helm and stirrups of "The Knight of Tears" - the other notable mystery knights in the series include The Knight of The Laughing Tree and The Gallows Knight - a crannogman's magical link speaks for itself, while the best friend of Aegon "Sumerhall" Targaryen, a giant born in the mystery steeped Pennytree, could have many magical links of his own.

 

Oh Leo, that's just great about Varys skinchanging spiders!  My thoughts have turned to our mysterious spymaster and his loathing of magic.  He doth protest too much methinks.  I bet he's got a collection of magical items squirrled away for his end game plan.  I would not be surprised to find he's got a missing sword in his possession.  As to the Dragonknight, he's got to have some magic in him--he's just got to.  This leads me down the path with Bloodraven.   You know I don't think he's a villain, which is unpopular, but I just don't see it.  I think he was loyal and faithful to the end.  He got a bad rep for doing hard but ultimately good things for his family and king. A sorcerer is a sorcerer whether he's called a wood's witch or Crannogman.  Not all sorcery is bad.  There just isn't enough information, but I can almost almost run with the noble aspects of both Aemon and Brynden.   

Thanks for all the detail behind the Dragonknight.   This is great stuff and is going directly into my file, with your permission, Ser.  Once again, your ability to connect seemingly disparate things amazes me.  

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

I think bloodraven most likely got dark sister from aerys I, fellow student of sorcery, and who br first served as hand for.

As to who gets dark sister next depends at great deal on where it is. If it is at the wall for example I find it hard to imagine a scenario in which Brianne becomes it's owner, just as if it's collecting dust in a basement of the red keep with dragon skulls, it's hard to envision Jon or Mel obtaining it. 

So I'll t forth 4 guesses based on location

1.) If it's in kings landing I can see Arya obtaining it, her mumery and faceless men skills giving her the sorcery cred, and the fact that many people on her list are in kings landing, which provides a reason for her to go there. The delegation from kings landing in bravo in the mercy chapter also could provide her with a way to go back to westeros covertly, by killing a member of the entourage and assuming thier place(face).

2.) If it's at the wall I think it gets very tricky. I don't think it would be Jon, as he is already the owner of a VS sword, so baring a reveal that longclaw is in fact already dark sister(which I don not think is the case, based on longclaws size) Jon can in my opinion be ruled out. My guess in this case than is Val, for no other reason than I think DS's owner will be female and I don't have a better guess. Gonna say for the record I don't think Mel will get it, and that I also think that this us the least likely location for the sword.

3.) If it's in the cave with BR it simply has to be meera, there is no one else, well unless she becomes meerapaste, than I guess bran would take it, or it would stay there.

4.) It is possible that it was left in kings landing and than later obtained by varys/Illyrio, possibly during the confussion of the regime change. If this is the case and they have it hidden in pentos,I could see Dani obtaining it, she, more than any other character, knows the price of sorcery.

Back door hodor--it's a pleasure to run into you twice in a single week.   I'm going to have to give you props for putting some nice things together.   Not the meerapaste, because that would suck, but the rest was great.   

I love a good logical and rational breakdown and you've given it in spades here.    I don't know whether Dude! would offend you, but I only say it to the finest minds.   Try to come up with some more--this is an excellent exercise.   How about Summerhall?   

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Cersei is tied to sorcery and black magic through Maggy the Frog and Qyburn.

The Westerlands has quite a history of sorcery and black magic (Maggy the Frog is a Westerlandser) and Cersei is a screaming parallel for Ellyn Reyne, a rumored sorceress. With Qyburn in her arc, Cersei's already become tied to black magic. The Westerlands is especially tied to necromancy, and in Cersei's arc we have Qyburn practicing necromancy.

The unabridged TWOIAF Westerlands chapter: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

Lann the Clever never called himself a king, as best we know, though some tales told centuries later have conferred that style on him posthumously.  The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed ‘the Lion’ or ‘the Golden,’ for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that House, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years.

 

King Morgon was supposedly a necromancer of terrible power, and it is written that as he lay dying, he told the Lannisters who had slain him (amongst them three of Loreon’s own sons) that he would return from the grave to wreak vengeance upon them one and all.  To prevent that, Loreon had Morgon’s body hacked into a hundred pieces and fed to his lions.  In a grisly aftermath, however, those selfsame lions broke loose two years later in the bowels of Casterly Rock, and slew the king’s sons, just as the Hooded King had promised.

 

…

 

[Sidebar: The sword Brightroar came into the possession of the Lannister kings in the century before the Doom, and it is said that the weight of gold they paid for it would have been enough to raise an army.  But it was lost a century later, when Tommen II sailed to ruined Valyria with the intention of plundering whatever wealth and sorcery remained after the Doom.

 

…

 

[Sidebar: The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister.  Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold’s sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them.

 

{Implying that Casterly Rock gold may itself be spelled hence why it cannot be used by Valyria).

…

 

Lord Gerold’s aged fool, an acerbic hunchback called Lord Toad, was heard to say, “Lady Ellyn must surely be a sorceress, for she has made it rain inside the Rock all year.” 

 

I actually read this at work then again this evening.   It's good to get a look at the Westerlands connections to magic and the dark arts.  I can't thank you enough for illuminating this area of the world as we ponder sorcery.  I'm vaguely recalling a conversation maybe 2 or 3 years ago where we discussed how Brightroar came into the Lannister's possession.   I believe we settled on an intermediary procuring then delivering Brightroar to the Lannisters.   The ultimate result being that The Valyrians didn't get the Lannister gold directly--that it was laundered .   I wish I could remember it all.   However it was the Lannisters obtained Brightroar, there was definitely something amiss in the deal.   This has good foundational value.  Thanks so much for bringing this into the discussion.   

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As we see with Mirri, Marwin, Qyburn, Freehold sorcerers, Shiera who was bookish, etc, witchcraft and sorcery are specialized knowledge and I think that is a very important distinction from simply being magical in the way the Starks are skinchangers.

I don't think magic which just happens (skinchanging) is interchangeable with magic which happens only when one has acquired and practiced at special knowledge for years and years. As magical as Bran or Dany are, they've not studied any of the knowledge which has been attributed to other sorcerers in the series.

True and you will get no argument from me.  I will only offer up that sorcery seems to be the umbrella phrase the Westerosi categorize all magic under.  Still you could be completely correct literally, thereby eliminating Jon, Bran and Dany from becoming the required sorcerer to wield Dark Sister.  There are days I would trade all my Greyjoy chapters to eliminate even 3 from the list!   

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Well since Jon Snow maybe dead for awhile I think it's reasonable to believe that someone else might claim his VS sword Longclaw while he's incapacitated. Then if he's resurrected through magic/sorcery he might fit the bill for being the prototype to carry Dark Sister.

Or I like the idea that Val might wield Dark Sister, as there are theories that she may be some type of priestess of the Old Gods.  

 

[Curled Finger]

28 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well since Jon Snow maybe dead for awhile I think it's reasonable to believe that someone else might claim his VS sword Longclaw while he's incapacitated. Then if he's resurrected through magic/sorcery he might fit the bill for being the prototype to carry Dark Sister.

Or I like the idea that Val might wield Dark Sister, as there are theories that she may be some type of priestess of the Old Gods.  

 

Hiya Ralphis, thanks for joining in!  Jon's disposition figures largely into my plans for Longclaw, so I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who can see this.  

Yours is the 2nd or 3rd vote for Val and it's interesting because I've never ever considered her for Dark Sister.  I have to pay more attention to her and get a better feel for her character.   

[Lollygag]

54 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

True and you will get no argument from me.  I will only offer up that sorcery seems to be the umbrella phrase the Westerosi categorize all magic under.  Still you could be completely correct literally, thereby eliminating Jon, Bran and Dany from becoming the required sorcerer to wield Dark Sister.  There are days I would trade all my Greyjoy chapters to eliminate even 3 from the list!   

I'm not sure they could be completely eliminated in that circumstance. BR could teach Bran the specifics without him knowing enough to be a sorcerer by title. Sort of like how you can learn to play only 1 or 2 songs on the piano yet not be a pianist.

I just don't think it'll be that easy that a magical character could pick up a sword belonging to sorcerers and it'll just work. The sword is thirsty for blood, no? Sounds like blood magic. So if someone has a bit of knowledge in blood magic, maybe it can be figured out? But then, they'd have to know that there is something magical to figure out in the first place which is a whole other deal. Is it common knowledge that DS is linked to dark magic?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yours is the 2nd or 3rd vote for Val and it's interesting because I've never ever considered her for Dark Sister.  I have to pay more attention to her and get a better feel for her character. 

In my first read I didn't put too much thought into Val myself. However after going over the later Jon chapters I realized just how much Jon trusts and relies on her. She's one of the most dependable Free Folk characters in the story and one of the most mysteries as well, IMO. Then add in that it seems somewhat possible that her and Jon could end up being an item and I think it means she might end up being a bigger character then most think. Just my opinion anyway. 

Very interesting post though, Dark Sister has always been my favorite sword in the series and seems to have been around some of the most interesting plot lines and events. If that sword could talk...

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not sure they could be completely eliminated in that circumstance. BR could teach Bran the specifics without him knowing enough to be a sorcerer by title. Sort of like how you can learn to play only 1 or 2 songs on the piano yet not be a pianist.

I just don't think it'll be that easy that a magical character could pick up a sword belonging to sorcerers and it'll just work. The sword is thirsty for blood, no? Sounds like blood magic. So if someone has a bit of knowledge in blood magic, maybe it can be figured out? But then, they'd have to know that there is something magical to figure out in the first place which is a whole other deal. Is it common knowledge that DS is linked to dark magic?

Both Dark Sister and Lady Forlorn have a thirst for blood, so I'm not sure it's just Dark Sister who may require a sorcerer.  Oathkeeper and Longclaw both seem to act of their own accord--sort of indicating that they have minds of their own.   That was way over simplified, I'm sorry.   The 1 thing we can tie Visenya, Maegor, Daemon and Bloodraven together with is their reputations for ferocity.  Your comment about the blood magic has me on this track.  Perhaps it isn't so much sorcery as bloodlust that may call Dark Sister to a particular hand?  

Really appreciate your analogy about playing the piano.   Well said, Lady!  I think you're right and will put that idea in the file as well.   

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

In my first read I didn't put too much thought into Val myself. However after going over the later Jon chapters I realized just how much Jon trusts and relies on her. She's one of the most dependable Free Folk characters in the story and one of the most mysteries as well, IMO. Then add in that it seems somewhat possible that her and Jon could end up being an item and I think it means she might end up being a bigger character then most think. Just my opinion anyway. 

Very interesting post though, Dark Sister has always been my favorite sword in the series and seems to have been around some of the most interesting plot lines and events. If that sword could talk...

It's not that I don't dig Jon.   I do.   I'm just a big fat Tyrion fan and his story line has always been my favorite so it's held my attention far better than the others.   I promise I will pay more attention to Val!   

You know, I really like this idea of having a favorite sword.   Dark Sister has definitely been in the thick of some riveting reading.   Truth has all that mystery surrounding it.  Widow's Wail has been underused--what could she be for?  Lady Forlorn, Ice and Lamentation are the stuff legends were made from.   Is Red Rain really the Reyne sword?  Ah geez, I could go on all day and night, but a favorirte is a really cool idea.   Are you perchance a fellow sword geek, Ser? 

[Leo of House Cartel]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh Leo, that's just great about Varys skinchanging spiders!  My thoughts have turned to our mysterious spymaster and his loathing of magic.  He doth protest too much methinks.  I bet he's got a collection of magical items squirrled away for his end game plan.  I would not be surprised to find he's got a missing sword in his possession.  As to the Dragonknight, he's got to have some magic in him--he's just got to.  This leads me down the path with Bloodraven.   You know I don't think he's a villain, which is unpopular, but I just don't see it.  I think he was loyal and faithful to the end.  He got a bad rep for doing hard but ultimately good things for his family and king. A sorcerer is a sorcerer whether he's called a wood's witch or Crannogman.  Not all sorcery is bad.  There just isn't enough information, but I can almost almost run with the noble aspects of both Aemon and Brynden.   

Thanks for all the detail behind the Dragonknight.   This is great stuff and is going directly into my file, with your permission, Ser.  Once again, your ability to connect seemingly disparate things amazes me.  

Many thanks CF, I must say your stuff always gets the mind going and invites tremendous conversation!  Go right ahead with the file!

Another thing about Aemon and those Mystery Knights is that each has a name associated with elements of sorcery, and each represents the three big magical races.

Knight of The Laughing Tree, being a Crannogman, would stand for the Children of The Forrest, with some added support from the Old Gods on the Isle of Faces.

The Gallows Knight, Duncan The Tall, represents Giants. Gallows refers to a hangman's office - the most notable hang person in the tale would be Lady Stoneheart, reanimated through some sorcery. Another famous hanging would be that of "Mance Rayder", done at the command of Stannis and Mel's magical Red God.

The Knight of Tears would, of course, be an ambassador for dragons. The tears in his handle have magical association too - Alyysa's Tears, the waterfall that doesn't touch the ground, apparently a punishment from "the gods". The Isle of Tears, home to the hellish pit of blood magic that was Gorgossos. The Tears of Lys is a poison made by Lyseni alchemists - sorcerers, by any other name.

Thinking about Aemon's swordsmanship, I wonder if he ever had the idea to sharpen his mind as he had his swordplay - like an inverted version of Rhaegar's "it appears I am to be a warrior". Granted, we have no way of knowing what Aemon might have thought about prophecy, but if he ever heard TPTWP story, he could be forgiven for thinking the fable was referring to him, considering his fighting prowess and overly good soul.

Another of the Dragonknight's closest confidants, Queen Naerys always struck me as having some magic about her - the big eyes and nearly translucent, porcelain skin have been described as "other worldy" before.

I wonder how BR himself viewed Dark Sister - did he think of it as merely a sword or did it hold some higher value to him? - "bastard or no, I earned this blade and no one else shall have it".

Taking DS to The Wall seems like quite an odd move for such an apparently staunch Targaryen loyalist like BR. It would also be madness for Egg to allow Brynden to take the sword with him - it was the last Targaryen blade in Kings Landing after all, any old crook could steal in at the Wall.

What do you think really happened here CF? Did Bloodraven somehow steal the blade back before he went North, or did Egg give his "cousin" the sword?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 Are you perchance a fellow sword geek, Ser? 

Ha! I actually used to be, but mostly more of Eastern Asian styles of swords, Katana's and Wakizashi's mainly. I always liked how the Samurai would name their swords and thought it carried their Bushido spirit. Since all VS swords have names I guess its where I see a connection. 

[Back door hodor]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Back door hodor--it's a pleasure to run into you twice in a single week.   I'm going to have to give you props for putting some nice things together.   Not the meerapaste, because that would suck, but the rest was great.   

I love a good logical and rational breakdown and you've given it in spades here.    I don't know whether Dude! would offend you, but I only say it to the finest minds.   Try to come up with some more--this is an excellent exercise.   How about Summerhall?   

Thanks and and great topic as usual btw....

I admit I had not considered sumerhall, but it is definitely a possibility as well. If DS were there I could see someone with aegon and the gc possibly picking it up, given the location of sumerhall in the dornish marchs, I couldn't say who because I think illyrio is gonna give aegon blackfyre.(however what bothers me about this is the fact that he hasn't done it already as far as we know, aegon is in westeros, he should have it, though this wasn't the original plan etc..). 

Also I want to say that I had not considered someone else claiming longclaw while Jon is out of commission, but after reading it in this thread I think it is a real possibility, and gives Jon a greater chance to wield DS than I originally thought.