Sorcerers and Swords

[Megorova]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's what?  3 topics in a row now that you've managed to go off on your own tangents to promote your own ideas that have nothing to do with the host topic?  Wouldn't it just be easier for you to start your own riveting discussions without distracting other people?   I'm so glad you're having a good time.  That said, I find this repeated intrusion to be very bad form.  People do want to speak to you about your ideas and opinions.   Start your own topics.   Have your own discussions.   This relentless hijacking is wearisome and completely unproductive as well as poor manners.    

Sure. Back to OP's topic - swords and magic:

I think that maybe Daenys the Dreamer, not only predicted the Doom of Valyria, but she also saw many other future events, including Second Long Night. She knew who will be the key figures in it, and thus she ordered to forge for them Valyrian weapons.

1. Dark Sister for Daenerys Targaryen.
2. Blackfyre for Aegon Blackfyre.
3. Valyrian Arakh for Dothraki Rhaego Drogo-Targaryen.
4. Valyrian Steel Dagger for Tyrion Lannister.
5. Longclaw for Jorah Mormont.
6. Heartsbane for Sam Tarly.
7. Valyrian Axe for Gendry Baratheon (or maybe Sandor Clegane, or Barristan Selmy).
8. Orphan-Maker for Jaime Lannister (now he has Widow's Wail).
9. Lamentation for Brienne Tarth (now she has Oathkeeper).
10. Vigilance for Arya Stark.
11. Truth for Jon Connington.
12. Nightfall for Gerold Dayne (his nickname is Darkstar).
13. Black scale armor for Jon Snow. And for him they didn't forged a sword, because his sword (Lightbringer) was already forged from meteorite ore - the Dawn sword of Daynes.

There was made 13 items for 13 heroes, that will fight against the Others, during Second Long Night. Same as there was 13 heroes, that departed to find Children, during First Long Night.

No offtopic info. Just sorceress Daenys and magic swords.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

30 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Makes sense if Dark Sister remained in Kings Landing.  In that there is no mention of Dark Sister other than the Inventories at the Citadel citing it is a lost sword, I'm thinking it really hasn't been seen.  But why would Rhaegar wield Dark Sister, just for curiosity's sake?  It's got the taint of historically belonging to the non-heir Targ.  I suppose if it was the only VS remaining it would make sense for any Targ to hold it or I am missing something more substantial here, Widow?   

I'm just extrapolating. 

I don't think Dark Sister is tainted. We know for sure of 4 people that wielded it. Visenya, a female warrior. Daemon Targaryen who may not have been king, but the Dragonknight, Bloodraven, Rhaegar, Dany are his descendants. Aemon was a peerless warrior, Bloodraven fought a duel with Bittersteel, so he could not have been that bad with a sword. 

If Dark Sister was in King's Landing, why wouldn't Aerys let his son (and I mean before he went bonkers obviously) have it? Why keep the sword hidden, especially if he thought Rhaegar was the PtwP? And we obviously don't know what Aerys thought, but the whole point of his marriage was to create this child. 

It's a lot of extrapolations based on nothing, really 

[Asshai Backward]

So I had what I thought was an epiphany last night, but now as I go to finally write it, it seems a bit flaky.  Nonetheless...

Not that I am especially fond of the idea that Benjen Stark being alive in the far far north all this time (I would prefer the idea he is Daario in disguise, sent by Ned to protect "the children, and I don't really like that idea all that much,) but if Benjen is alive in the far north, mightn't he have stopped by BR's cave for instructions, and continued on with Darksister as protection?  

I don't know.  I have little investment in this idea, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.

[Seams]

21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't think Jon will be resisting anything, but I do see other candidates for taking Longclaw.  Back to your Hodor assumption...Longclaw is a bastard sword--nearly as big as a great sword--a big, awkward thing.  Dark Sister will be more compact and elegant--quicker for sure.  But Dark Sister is the non heir sword among the Targaryans.   Jon would have Blackfyre if everything worked out the way it actually should.   Blackfyre is the only other VS sword we know of that is a bastard sword.  I just see a lot of little hints in Longclaw being Jon's, that's all.   I doubt the story will permit anything to work out as it should.  

Far as I can tell, and I have studied this at length and will ask @Cridefea for her expertise as well...there were no magic swords available for Rhaegar to wield.  The other swords known to us were all long held ancestral swords from their original families except the swords held by the Ironborn, Nightfall and Red Rain. There do seem to be 3 VS swords Tywin tried to buy, but we don't know who the families were, though we have to guess the Mormonts were among them.   It could also have been disgraceful to wield a sword that was not specifically Targaryan.  That's just a guess.  In all if either Blackfyre or Dark Sister (perhaps even Truth) were available to Rhaegar I'm certain he would have carried one or the other.   We've been looking for the swords for years.   I'm convinced Brightroar and Lamentation are lost and destroyed respectively.   Ice has been reforged into 2 blades leaving us with 12 named VS swords said to be Westerosi.  That says they are in Westeros to me.   Why list them if they aren't?  At the end of the day you're absolutely right.   Rhaegar's sword was nothing special.   

I've been following the Dark Sister discussion with interest. Since it was made for a woman and is smaller, I was led to some thinking about Arya's Needle. I don't think Needle is Dark Sister, as Ned handled the sword at one point and recognized it as Mikken's work and did not say anything about the blade being Valyrian Steel. So we can rule out the possibility that Arya's sword is Dark Sister with a new hilt, if that was ever a consideration.

But the author might still intend that we compare the two swords we know were made for women. (Are there others? I'm drawing a blank.) Both are smaller than standard swords; the word "slender" is used to describe both of them. Like Dark Sister, which was "sword-napped," spent some time in a lake, and is now whereabouts unknown, Needle has been both missing and hidden.

Needle was taken from Arya when Gregor Clegane's men found Gendry, Arya, Hot Pie and Lommy Greenhands outside of Harrenhal. Polliver took Arya's sword and Dunsen took Gendry's bull helmet. Arya later saw Polliver depart with both the sword and helmet as the standard bearer for Ser Gregor when Tywin Lannister's forces marched to battle with Riverrun. Arya eventually recovers Needle when Sandor Clegane kills Polliver at the inn at the crossroads. Arya enjoys secretly practicing with the sword again until the Kindly Man says she must divest herself of all of her possessions from her previous life if she wants to join the faceless men. Of course, she can't bear to part with the sword, which represents her home and her family and her northern culture. So she hides it behind a loose stone in a set of steps leading to a canal in Braavos.

Are there clues in the story of Needle that might help to clarify the situation for Dark Sister?

At one point, Dark Sister was taken without permission of its previous owner. Instead of a Polliver character, the sword was taken by Queen Alyssa Velaryon. The two incidents don't seem directly comparable, but might be parallels.

I think zeroing in on the stone steps is the better comparison. Dark Sister was owned by Daemon Targaryen at one point, who declared himself king of the Stepstones.

Could Bloodraven have similarly hidden his sword, as Arya hid Needle? If the comparison to Arya and Needle is correct, it suggests to me that Bloodraven hid his own sword. Some of the comments on this thread speculate that Aegon V would not have allowed Bloodraven to take the sword to the Wall, as it was a Targ heirloom and Brynden Rivers had no known heirs anyway. Whether the new king was involved or not, Bloodraven could have hidden the sword before leaving or enroute to the Wall. As the Master of Whisperers for the Iron Throne, he would have known some of the secret passages and listening places built into the Red Keep. He could have easily put the sword behind a loose stone with the intention of sending a message to Maester Aemon or some Targ ally when the time was right to pass it along. As the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he could have hidden the sword at Castle Black or any of the deserted castles falling to ruins along the wall. I also like the possibility that he hid the sword somewhere beyond the Wall - on his way to the underground cave of the CotF with its underground river. This seems nicely parallel to Arya's steps leading to a canal and the amount of time she spends underground and even - as Blind Beth - "in the dark" yet skinchanging a cat.

So why did I respond to CF's comment about Longclaw, if I wanted to talk about Needle? I think there is a connection.

Let's speculate for a moment that we might end up with a new version of Visenya, Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaenys on the Iron Throne. I'll just randomly guess that Jon Snow might fulfill the role of Aegon. Who would be his sister-wives? We know he's the son of Ned Stark, so one sister wife could be Arya. Ewwww! I've heard a rumor somewhere that he might not actually be the son of Ned Stark, however, so maybe the Arya match is not biologically problematic. His second wife could be someone such as Daenerys Targaryen. If this trio is correct, we would need two swords and a dragon to represent the weapons of choice that were possessed by the Conquering Targ trio.

Hey! Daenerys has dragons! So that might work as a comparison. But she also has a weapon: a whip called the Harpy's Fingers. It has a dragonbone handle, so it seems as if it is a good fit for her. It has nine long leather lashes attached to it. Interesting, huh? If a harpy has hands like a human (and I don't know for sure that it does), it seems as if it would have ten fingers. Or an even number of some kind. But the whip has the problematic uneven number of nine "fingers". Where could we find one more finger to make it seem complete? Or, instead of a finger, perhaps one long claw?

Hey! Jon Snow has a weapon called Longclaw! What are the odds?

And the third weapon of the conquering trio has already been compared to Arya's sword. Hat trick!

I realize this is all speculation. It's not as if someone told Arya that she would marry a king and rule his castle, and have sons who would be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon. That would be crazy talk.

Just a few more observations:

Like Dark Sister, dragons were "missing" until Dany intuitively found a way to hatch some. So maybe the recovery of Dark Sister will not occur when Bloodraven sends a raven to a worthy possessor, telling them where to dig, but when that worthy possessor intuitively figures out where the sword is or stumbles upon when looking for something else.

It's also possible that Dark Sister doesn't have to turn up again. (I know, CF - it's your thread so I will support the notion that it can and must be located.) But Needle, Longclaw and the Harpy's Fingers would fill the three openings for the new conquering trio I am envisioning. Just sayin'.

I think it's significant that Arya's sword was taken at the same time Gendry's helmet was taken. Both Dark Sister and Aegon's crown are missing. Maybe they will be found by the same person. Arya found her sword but I don't think we've seen the bull helmet turn up again. Yet.

Like Dany's named weapon, the Harpy's Fingers, Robb Stark's crown has nine points. His were miniature long swords. The original crown of the Kings of Winter was also misplaced somewhere in time so Robb's crown was a replica. I think the missing crowns should be considered alongside the missing swords. Robb demanded the return of his family's great sword, Ice, but it was not returned. So, like Dany, he also lacked the complete set of ten "fingers".

(It is such a relief to finally have a rationale for the nine swords on that crown. If a pair of hands, whole and healthy, is supposed to have ten fingers, the King of Winter is incomplete unless he has both the one-pointed sword and the nine-pointed crown. So glad to finally work that out. I hope someone starts a discussion featuring nails and claws so we can further explore this possibility.)

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Sure. Back to OP's topic - swords and magic:

I think that maybe Daenys the Dreamer, not only predicted the Doom of Valyria, but she also saw many other future events, including Second Long Night. She knew who will be the key figures in it, and thus she ordered to forge for them Valyrian weapons.

1. Dark Sister for Daenerys Targaryen.
2. Blackfyre for Aegon Blackfyre.
3. Valyrian Arakh for Dothraki Rhaego Drogo-Targaryen.
4. Valyrian Steel Dagger for Tyrion Lannister.
5. Longclaw for Jorah Mormont.
6. Heartsbane for Sam Tarly.
7. Valyrian Axe for Gendry Baratheon (or maybe Sandor Clegane, or Barristan Selmy).
8. Orphan-Maker for Jaime Lannister (now he has Widow's Wail).
9. Lamentation for Brienne Tarth (now she has Oathkeeper).
10. Vigilance for Arya Stark.
11. Truth for Jon Connington.
12. Nightfall for Gerold Dayne (his nickname is Darkstar).
13. Black scale armor for Jon Snow. And for him they didn't forged a sword, because his sword (Lightbringer) was already forged from meteorite ore - the Dawn sword of Daynes.

There was made 13 items for 13 heroes, that will fight against the Others, during Second Long Night. Same as there was 13 heroes, that departed to find Children, during First Long Night.

No offtopic info. Just sorceress Daenys and magic swords.

The OP regards Dark Sister and her possible association with sorcerers.   That was plenty off topic. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I'm just extrapolating. 

I don't think Dark Sister is tainted. We know for sure of 4 people that wielded it. Visenya, a female warrior. Daemon Targaryen who may not have been king, but the Dragonknight, Bloodraven, Rhaegar, Dany are his descendants. Aemon was a peerless warrior, Bloodraven fought a duel with Bittersteel, so he could not have been that bad with a sword. 

If Dark Sister was in King's Landing, why wouldn't Aerys let his son (and I mean before he went bonkers obviously) have it? Why keep the sword hidden, especially if he thought Rhaegar was the PtwP? And we obviously don't know what Aerys thought, but the whole point of his marriage was to create this child. 

It's a lot of extrapolations based on nothing, really 

Every on topic thought helps work the mystery out.  I'm fond of saying the tale speaks to each of us differently.  It is in those differences that I find so much valuable information.   Thanks Widow.  

[Curled Finger]

44 minutes ago, Asshai Backward said:

So I had what I thought was an epiphany last night, but now as I go to finally write it, it seems a bit flaky.  Nonetheless...

Not that I am especially fond of the idea that Benjen Stark being alive in the far far north all this time (I would prefer the idea he is Daario in disguise, sent by Ned to protect "the children, and I don't really like that idea all that much,) but if Benjen is alive in the far north, mightn't he have stopped by BR's cave for instructions, and continued on with Darksister as protection?  

I don't know.  I have little investment in this idea, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.

Some of the best snows fall from the flaky.   Why is this idea flaky?  We haven't see Benjen or Dark Sister.   Far as I know you may have solved the mystery there!    And added a most unexpected hero to the line up. You just keep having those epiphanies, my friend!   

[Curled Finger]

30 minutes ago, Seams said:

I've been following the Dark Sister discussion with interest. Since it was made for a woman and is smaller, I was led to some thinking about Arya's Needle. I don't think Needle is Dark Sister, as Ned handled the sword at one point and recognized it as Mikken's work and did not say anything about the blade being Valyrian Steel. So we can rule out the possibility that Arya's sword is Dark Sister with a new hilt, if that was ever a consideration.

But the author might still intend that we compare the two swords we know were made for women. (Are there others? I'm drawing a blank.) Both are smaller than standard swords; the word "slender" is used to describe both of them. Like Dark Sister, which was "sword-napped," spent some time in a lake, and is now whereabouts unknown, Needle has been both missing and hidden.

Needle was taken from Arya when Gregor Clegane's men found Gendry, Arya, Hot Pie and Lommy Greenhands outside of Harrenhal. Polliver took Arya's sword and Dunsen took Gendry's bull helmet. Arya later saw Polliver depart with both the sword and helmet as the standard bearer for Ser Gregor when Tywin Lannister's forces marched to battle with Riverrun. Arya eventually recovers Needle when Sandor Clegane kills Polliver at the inn at the crossroads. Arya enjoys secretly practicing with the sword again until the Kindly Man says she must divest herself of all of her possessions from her previous life if she wants to join the faceless men. Of course, she can't bear to part with the sword, which represents her home and her family and her northern culture. So she hides it behind a loose stone in a set of steps leading to a canal in Braavos.

Are there clues in the story of Needle that might help to clarify the situation for Dark Sister?

At one point, Dark Sister was taken without permission of its previous owner. Instead of a Polliver character, the sword was taken by Queen Alyssa Velaryon. The two incidents don't seem directly comparable, but might be parallels.

I think zeroing in on the stone steps is the better comparison. Dark Sister was owned by Daemon Targaryen at one point, who declared himself king of the Stepstones.

Could Bloodraven have similarly hidden his sword, as Arya hid Needle? If the comparison to Arya and Needle is correct, it suggests to me that Bloodraven hid his own sword. Some of the comments on this thread speculate that Aegon V would not have allowed Bloodraven to take the sword to the Wall, as it was a Targ heirloom and Brynden Rivers had no known heirs anyway. Whether the new king was involved or not, Bloodraven could have hidden the sword before leaving or enroute to the Wall. As the Master of Whisperers for the Iron Throne, he would have known some of the secret passages and listening places built into the Red Keep. He could have easily put the sword behind a loose stone with the intention of sending a message to Maester Aemon or some Targ ally when the time was right to pass it along. As the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he could have hidden the sword at Castle Black or any of the deserted castles falling to ruins along the wall. I also like the possibility that he hid the sword somewhere beyond the Wall - on his way to the underground cave of the CotF with its underground river. This seems nicely parallel to Arya's steps leading to a canal and the amount of time she spends underground and even - as Blind Beth - "in the dark" yet skinchanging a cat.

So why did I respond to CF's comment about Longclaw, if I wanted to talk about Needle? I think there is a connection.

Let's speculate for a moment that we might end up with a new version of Visenya, Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaenys on the Iron Throne. I'll just randomly guess that Jon Snow might fulfill the role of Aegon. Who would be his sister-wives? We know he's the son of Ned Stark, so one sister wife could be Arya. Ewwww! I've heard a rumor somewhere that he might not actually be the son of Ned Stark, however, so maybe the Arya match is not biologically problematic. His second wife could be someone such as Daenerys Targaryen. If this trio is correct, we would need two swords and a dragon to represent the weapons of choice that were possessed by the Conquering Targ trio.

Hey! Daenerys has dragons! So that might work as a comparison. But she also has a weapon: a whip called the Harpy's Fingers. It has a dragonbone handle, so it seems as if it is a good fit for her. It has nine long leather lashes attached to it. Interesting, huh? If a harpy has hands like a human (and I don't know for sure that it does), it seems as if it would have ten fingers. Or an even number of some kind. But the whip has the problematic uneven number of nine "fingers". Where could we find one more finger to make it seem complete? Or, instead of a finger, perhaps one long claw?

Hey! Jon Snow has a weapon called Longclaw! What are the odds?

And the third weapon of the conquering trio has already been compared to Arya's sword. Hat trick!

I realize this is all speculation. It's not as if someone told Arya that she would marry a king and rule his castle, and have sons who would be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon. That would be crazy talk.

Just a few more observations:

Like Dark Sister, dragons were "missing" until Dany intuitively found a way to hatch some. So maybe the recovery of Dark Sister will not occur when Bloodraven sends a raven to a worthy possessor, telling them where to dig, but when that worthy possessor intuitively figures out where the sword is or stumbles upon when looking for something else.

It's also possible that Dark Sister doesn't have to turn up again. (I know, CF - it's your thread so I will support the notion that it can and must be located.) But Needle, Longclaw and the Harpy's Fingers would fill the three openings for the new conquering trio I am envisioning. Just sayin'.

I think it's significant that Arya's sword was taken at the same time Gendry's helmet was taken. Both Dark Sister and Aegon's crown are missing. Maybe they will be found by the same person. Arya found her sword but I don't think we've seen the bull helmet turn up again. Yet.

Like Dany's named weapon, the Harpy's Fingers, Robb Stark's crown has nine points. His were miniature long swords. The original crown of the Kings of Winter was also misplaced somewhere in time so Robb's crown was a replica. I think the missing crowns should be considered alongside the missing swords. Robb demanded the return of his family's great sword, Ice, but it was not returned. So, like Dany, he also lacked the complete set of ten "fingers".

(It is such a relief to finally have a rationale for the nine swords on that crown. If a pair of hands, whole and healthy, is supposed to have ten fingers, the King of Winter is incomplete unless he has both the one-pointed sword and the nine-pointed crown. So glad to finally work that out. I hope someone starts a discussion featuring nails and claws so we can further explore this possibility.)

I gotta tell ya, Seams, I do dig it so completely when I get an all too rare chance to just exchange ideas with you and Leo.   This brings back the best memories.  I'm so pleased this still interests you.  The other small sword is Widow's Wail.  But regular long swords are not unthinkable for a woman to wield.  Even Theon with his flayed fingers can wield a long sword effectively.   For the most part I do think DS & WW will be held by women, children or maimed heroes.  I do like the comparison you're drawing between Needle and DS...Could Arya perhaps be destined to carry her little Needle aside from all the other excellent reasons you've proposed.  It is supposed to be with her and she with it?  

Oh Man Seams, that's great!  There are parallels in the story.   It takes a sorceress to ferret some of it out!   Nice. Nice. Nice.  This is the wonderful stuff files are made for!   Hat trick indeed.  I saw what you did with your word play, too, Young Lady.   

I've been thinking along the same lines as your findings--the swords will call to their heroes.  Finding a sword is nearly essential, being magical and all.   I wish I could match your wonderful sense of irony and sarcasm here, it's great.  This is where I worry that Meera will find Dark Sister.  Sons of the Dragon messed me up Seams, I'm  not nearly as married to the idea that all the swords will turn up.   Dark Sister and Blackfyre will, but I'm not as hopeful as I once was about Truth or Orphan-Maker.  But I do still really like the idea!!!   As to your new 3 weapons I like it.  There are certainly fine weapons--even armor--that could figure nicely into endgame and establishing a house or re-establishing a house.  I wonder how that Harpy's Fingers would do against an other.  Badass scene playing out in my mind--leave a message.   

True on the Bull Helm, but we do have a certain Hound Helm making the rounds, don't we?   I wonder what it would say if Gendry's helm reappears.   And Blackfyre?  Great Seams, now I have a new quandary--wonder how many years it will take to sort this out.   Thanks ever so. 

I think the next search will be for crowns.  As you say they are important.  And they are most certainly missing.   Aegon, Rhaenyra, Rhaella, Torrhen--I wonder just how many missing crowns there really are?   

I know someone who actually is looking into nails hehehehehehehe...You are so much fun sometimes and always informative.  Thanks so much for all of this.   Great read and leads me to all sorts of thoughts.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Sorry for flooding your thread. I'll try not to get too much off topic. I'll put under spoiler, those parts of my reply to Dorian Martell's son, that are unrelated to OP.

  Hide contents

I specifically posted quote with that scene, where she was riding that horse, because of her reactions:

In dangerous situations, instead of getting scared, she's getting exited. She had similar reaction, when Drogon apeared in fighting pit - when in critical situation, facing against mortal treat, she didn't run away, and didn't freeze up. Instead she has run towards berserking dragon, and used against him whatever was available, to stop him.

Danger gives her adrenaline rush, it's a good quality for a potential fighter. She's able to act fast, and use her brain, even under pressure. So it's still possible that she will be weilding a sword in a near future. She's not Sansa, i.e. she isn't totally hopeless as a fighter.

The first 5 books Dany was in Essos, while ancestral swords of Targaryens (Blackfyre and Dark Sister) are in Westeros. Most likely only Bloodraven knows where they are, thus he will be the one who will (thru Bran) give those swords to their rightful owners (Targaryens, Blackfyres?)

1st really big assumption. We do not know where the blackfyre is. The last time we saw the sword was in the hands of a man who had his skull dipped in gold. We do not know where the sword is. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

I thought that Blackfyre should be given to Rhaego (because he's first son of Targaryen Queen). But I rereaded how many of Valyrian blades there are in total, and I noticed that one of them is an arakh. So this weapon will be more fitting for a Rhaego, who is a Dothraki.

and how would that be given to Rhaego. Isn't it in Westeros with the remnants of the bloody mummers?  Also, why would he deserve a Valyrian steel weapon. He would be  2 years old if he was alive. Far too young to fight in any war with people, much less a war for the dawn. That is where the book is headed.

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Furthermore there's one problem with his inheritance. Rhaego may be Dany's firstborn, but he's son of her first husband, not son of King of 7K. If Jon Snow is son of Rhaegar Targaryen, then he is also first in line, to be ruler of 7K. So Dany's children from her previous marriages, no matter whether they are older than her children with Jon (Aegon VII Targaryen), they won't ever sit on Iron Throne.

 If he was alive and spirited away with Pono, nobody would know it was Dany's kid anyway. Even though a Khal would never raise another Khal's son, they would possibly take the kid to the the crones, but probably not, as succession means nothing to them. Only strength.  I must remind you again that as of book 5 he would have been 2 if he lived. Which he didn't. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Furthermore there's Essos, and maybe millions of Dothraki, thus someone has to rule over them. And Rhaego is a Dothraki, so most likely he won't be content to settle in one place, and be stuck in a court of Red Keep, with all those civilized ceremonies and alien for him customs, if he will have an alternative option to be free, and be among others like him. The ruler of 7K will be first son of Dany and Jon, not Rhaego. So Rhaego won't have a high place in a hierarchy of 7K. For him it will be better to be a ruler of Dothraki, than a mere courtier (Queen's son from one of her previous marriages, and half-barbarian) in Red Keep.  

Again, he is 2. There would be no guarantee he would ever grow strong enough to rule anyone. even if the next two book took us 5 years, he would only be 7, younger than bran was at the start of the story. He not be strong enough to rule anyone. 

 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

Spoiler

 

Thus Rhaego will be wielding that Valyrian steel arakh, and Blackfyre will be given either to Jon's eldest son, or returned to Blackfyres (fAegon) from whom it was treacherously taken away by Targaryens, after Fourth Rebellion.

The Targs do not have Blackfyre. Bittersteel was the last person seen with it. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though if Arthur Dayne is Jon's godfather, and he was the one who named him (as Aegon), then Jon is also his family. And if Ashara Dayne was also then at TofJ, then could be that after her brother's death, she decided to give her brother's sword to Jon/Aegon. Because Jon was his godson, and also his King. And Arthur didn't had his own children, so his godson is the closest to something like his successor.

Are there godfathers in westeros? And if so, it does not entail being part of a line of succession. And Dawn is not a sword that is "given."  It is bestowed upon a member of house Dayne that is determined to be worthy.  The Sword was never Arthur's to give so there would be no reason to give it to a baby that was going to live a secret life on the other end of a continent and never have any contact with his godfather's family thjat has held the sword for thousands of years. Nice try though. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also it doesn't make any sense, that after Lyanna's death, Ned took with him newborn Jon, and went across Red Mountains and desert, to supposedly bring the Dawn to Starfall. And another suspicious thing is that how Ashara supposedly commited suicide, by jumping into the sea from Starfall's tower, but her body was never found. So is there any actual evidences, that Ned really went to Starfall after Lyanna's death, and that he really brought the Dawn there, and that Ashara really commited suicide?

Why not? Ned had the lord of the neck and possibly a wet nurse (how else would jon survive? Wylla?) and the last surviving child of Rhaegar , who King Bob had killed with him at the tower. He buried the bodies of the all the dead, and since we know Ned was honorable to a fault, in fact, so honorable he was killed because of it, so it is in no way a stretch to think he took the legendary ancestral blade of the daynes back to their seat. It would also give him time to build a story as to why he had a baby. 
As for Ashara, we know so little about her death any speculation is as good as any other. Did anyone see her jump? Was it Ned? How else would the story be spread? This may have something to do with how ned reacts to his wife mentioning Ashara as kitchen gossip. Her missing corpse did leave open the possibility of a scheme. It matters not, unless she would show up later and gab about Jon's parentage. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

I know what GRRM has said about the Dawn, thought those words prove nothing. Whose words are those? Maybe GRRM was just citing his book, or passage from World book. Thus it may be that those words were said by one of Daynes. But even though Daynes made other characters of ASOIAF to think, that the Dawn is at Starfall, it doesn't mean that it's true. Because if Arthur's sister gave their ancestral sword to Jon Snow, then will other Daynes tell about this to anyone? Of course not. Because that will make people (characters) wonder, why did Arthur Dayne's ancestral sword was given to Jon Snow, to Starks? Is it because Ashara is Jon's mother, or is it because Arthur was present at Tower of Joy, when Lyanna Stark died there, and thus there's some sort of connection between Arthur, Ned, and Ned's bastard.

That is just circular logic.  Besides, where would Dawn be if not at starfall? We have not seen it, so there is no reason to think it is anywhere else other than where it last was. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

If people will know, that the Dawn was given to Starks, or they will think that the Dawn's current whereabouts are unknown, and its last known location was at the Tower of Joy, then people will also suspect that Ned Stark took the sword. That's why, to prevent from happening any conjectures, that may lead to people realising Jon's real identity, Ned and Ashara and Daynes family, made up that story about Ned going to Starfall to give the Dawn to Daynes family, and Ashara comitting suicide. Even though actually Ashara is alive, and went with Howland Reed to become Jyanna Reed (and Edric Ned Dayne is their third child).

Again, more circular logic. This is all self supporting speculation based on nothing. 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Add to that, that in crypts of Winterfell there are buried only males. Aside from one exeption - Lyanna. And everyone there are buried with swords, so with what sword was buried Lyanna? So could be that the Dawn is buried with her. 

The swords in winterfell are placed across the laps of their statues. I suppose Dawn could be stored with her bones  
But what good would it do there? Jon has crypt dreams. Something important to him is in there. Some clue to his parentage. Dawn would not be that clue. It would have to be a possession of the prince. Rhaegar's harp maybe? 

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

This story is based on lots of assumptions, but it ties together many out of loose plot threads.   

That is the whole problem. The only way it ties anything together is by piling on the baseless assumptions. That isn't tying together loose plot threads. It is writing a different story. 

 

 

[Faera]

On 06/02/2018 at 3:34 AM, Curled Finger said:

Destroyed at Summerhall.   Buzzkill!   I'm thinking as a legitimized Targaryan bastard, BR had every right to Dark Sister, crime or no.  I don't think a man can be stripped of his arms, can he?  Jeor got to keep Longclaw and I've wondered if that wasn't a direct clue to Dark Sister's fate.  

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think BR has it in the cave... I don't think Egg would have made him give it up. And I agree Bran fits the sorcerer criteria. 

I think you both make a good point here. Brynden was legitimised and was going to the Wall. They weren't to have known that he would go missing on a ranging and never be seen again, so the Crown might well have expected to get the sword back once he died.

Of course, I am bias as I really want Dark Sister to a.) Appear in the story and b.) Be used by Bran-Hodor at some point (before ideally being gifted to Meera, the antithesis to a 'Dark Sister'), in case my long post didn't make that clear. 

Slightly OT but if Hodor is a descendant of Dunk, and perhaps Brienne is too, they could be third cousins or something! I dunno I just really like that for some reason.

On 06/02/2018 at 3:34 AM, Curled Finger said:

Destroyed at Summerhall.   Buzzkill!   I'm thinking as a legitimized Targaryan bastard, BR had every right to Dark Sister, crime or no.  I don't think a man can be stripped of his arms, can he?  Jeor got to keep Longclaw and I've wondered if that wasn't a direct clue to Dark Sister's fate.  As to sorcerers, I think Jon and Arya and Bran all qualify as far as their magical abilities are concerned.   But that's why I brought them up--to see what the general consensus is.   In our last massive swords topic--gads had to be at least a year ago--it occurred to me that Alleras could be the perfect candidate for hero to wield Dark Sister--archer, sorcerer, dark sister.   Miss Meera Reed has always been my front runner though.   In my world there are 12 swords even though some have been lost or unseen for a very long time.   I have faith they will reappear in due course.   Thanks to some invaluable conversation with @OtherFromAnotherMother and @Cridefeamy most recent list of hero companions has to be close to 40 now.   No, I'm not getting any closer at all.   This topic is an effort to bounce some ideas off the book club in hopes of narrowing my heroes down.   

Ah, what you need m'dear is a tier system. I hate quantifying but when you work in a university as I do, you do or cry! Don't treat it like an exact science because this is book club but it might be a fun thought experiment, like people who do tiers to work out who the best fighters are. You can make your clauses however you want based on what you think is important to consider. I would narrow the list down based on certain criteria like (off the top of my head):

- Logistics: is the character close to the last known or probable locations for Dark Sister or is there a reasonable way they could obtain the sword from someone who has likely access to the sword?

- Viability: can this character fight or are they trained in arms or has used a sword/has need of a sword and could use it?

- Need: this refers to situational and personal need. How likely is this character to require a weapon like Dark Sister? (i.e. If dragonsteel = Valyrian steel, are they front line in the war with the Others). Does Dark Sister have attributes that are benefiting this character? (i.e. It is smaller and lighter,  made for a woman's build).

- Theme: this is where your wizard stuff comes in! Does it make thematic sense for this character to wield Dark Sister?

...aaaaaaaaand so on.

So, in my list, someone like Daenerys might fit the thematic sense of a female Targaryen queen who rides a dragon and plans to conquer Westeros, as a "second Visenya" but it breaks down after that. She's unlikely to come across DS in an organic sense, she is not trained in arms, and she doesn't need a sword because she rides Drogon now. I would rank Dany very, very low.

Compare to another wild card, Sarella. She is unlikely to come across the sword if BR has it but she might gain access to a reinforged/renamed DS if the Martells somehow got it after Summerhall. She used a long-range weapon so she has knowledge of arms - though I would argue one of her sisters - Obara, Nymeria or even Elia - feel more suited to a sword like Dark Sister simply due to her being more studious while they are more active warrior-like women. Sarella is unlikely to have a direct need while she has her bow... though if she comes face to face with some Iron Born... a Valyrian steel sword would be handy. Thematically, all you say is true. I would argue that we could also make the same case for a character like Theon Greyjoy.

In fact, now I think about it...

Theon is in the North with Stannis and not too far from the Wall. While unlikely to come across DS himself it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a character such as Bran or Meera to give him the sword if they returned. What did he pray to the Heart Tree (i.e. Bran) for? A sword and the chance to die as Theon. He was better known for his archery skills but Theon is undoubtedly trained in arms. He does have a need for a sword because, as we know, Ramsay took some of his fingers meaning that he might no longer be able to shot an arrow. Thematically, he is more in tune to the magic of the weirwood than some, he is a "crippled" archer, and he is a dark figure who committed terrible crimes against his foster family. He's not a sister but he is a "Dark Brother" in a way.

Wow, this is weirdly fun!

To me it isn't just about cool people swinging a famous sword but about a story but about what a sword might mean for them. Longclaw is a huge part of Jon's story, Oathkeeper is a huge part of Jaime/Brienne's story, and I've before it was reforged as Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Ice was a huge part of Ned's character with his habit of cleaning it at the Godswood. 

I would agree that Meera is the frontrunner but I really, really like this weird idea I have of Bran-Hodor getting to use it first. Plus, after @kissdbyfire pointed out the possible Dunk connection... Yep, want it even more. Or ideally both in the long term.

On 06/02/2018 at 3:34 AM, Curled Finger said:

As to your swords from the crypts, have you ever thought 1 of those swords could be the original Ice?   We've had so many discussions about the swords I know the swords taken from the crypts have come up, but I don't think any of them are Dark Sister.

If it is, then it would have to be Hodor's. The other swords are very new in comparison. It would be interesting if the reason that rusty old sword is so tough is because it was made to really, really last.

There is no way any of them were Dark Sister. The only way I could see that working is if it was somehow in Lyanna's tomb or something but seeing as Rhaegar never used Dark Sister, that is probably a piece of circumstantial proof that Bloodraven took it with him when he went to the Wall - since there is no evidence Aerys or Rhaegar ever used it.

Quote

Jojen, Bran/Hodor, Meera--all check.   Love the Bran & Hodor stuff.   I think Hodor's sword is very special--maybe not Ice, but some legendary Stark King of Winter's sword imbued with it's own magic that will undoubtedly break just as you describe.   Lots to think about there.   I love it that you still love OLC!  Meera has some sort of magic, I'm sure of it.   

Faera, I could read your thoughts all night and come back tomorrow to learn even more from them.  That was a great set of scenarios you offered up at the altar of the magic swords.   

I just think those swords are going to break. Perhaps, ironically, Hodor's old rusty blade will be the one to hold out the longest. The other swords all belonged to Rickard, Brandon and then the one Osha took was meant for Eddard's tomb.

My love for OLC is eternal, and is my love for his daughter who is one of my favourite characters.

Hey, you can read my Bran-Hodor theory post any time and tell me your thoughts. I might even want to expand it at some point... 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Hey, you can read my Bran-Hodor theory post any time and tell me your thoughts. I might even want to expand it at some point... 

Oh, I'd like to read that theory.  Where is it?  Link?

[The Chequered Raven]

On 4.2.2018 at 10:45 PM, Curled Finger said:

Other noted sorcerers are the Warlocks of Qaarth, Septon Barth, Varys and...

Varys?

Did I missed something? As far as I remember Varys states that he hates sorcery and sorcers because he lost his manhood at one.

[The Chequered Raven]

On 5.2.2018 at 6:41 PM, Curled Finger said:

Any sorcerers up your sleeve?

I would add Samwell Tarly here.

He confesses to John that he always dreamed to be a wizard, and he is in Oldtown at the Citadel now, and I think he will be trained in some knowledge of magic at least - to become what he has dreamed of!
And speaking about the Citadel, one may add Maester Marwin as well, who had been in Asshai, certainly THE city if ist is about sorcery.

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Varys?

Did I missed something? As far as I remember Varys states that he hates sorcery and sorcers because he lost his manhood at one.

Not at all.   He's just the 1st person mentioned to be a sorcerer in AGOT.   That statement set a foundation for defining sorcery.   It's in the conversation between he and Illyrio that Arya overhears.   I'm defining sorcerer here as a dark personality, cruel, vindictive, rash--not necessarily spell casting and magic studying.   More of having an ability to change the appearance of things, as Mel states, "seeming".   There is a lot to it considering the 4 characters targeted in the OP.   I like the corners this is turning.    This isn't so much a topic as a call to arms--help me see if Dark Sister really has an alliance to a particular type of character.    That's all.   

[Curled Finger]

24 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

I would add Samwell Tarly here.

He confesses to John that he always dreamed to be a wizard, and he is in Oldtown at the Citadel now, and I think he will be trained in some knowledge of magic at least - to become what he has dreamed of!
And speaking about the Citadel, one may add Maester Marwin as well, who had been in Asshai, certainly THE city if ist is about sorcery.

I tried to pull Sam in and forgive me as I'm not a big fantasy fan nor have I played video games in a long time, but Sam comes up as a wizard.   I'm working to understand the differences in magic and magical titles.  (Mage, sorcerer, warlock, wizard--gads I think I've got like 8 of them now I'm trying to figure out!)  There is a darkness of character associated with sorcerer that does not lend itself to wizardry.   (As I say, I'm still learning about this, so if I be wrong by all means tell me where my error is!) If you think he really fits let's add him in.   Marwyn definitely fits by interests and reputation.   

[The Chequered Raven]

20 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

If the sword remained in King's Landing, I wouldn't be surprised was wielded by Rhaegar himself.  

This!

If Dark Sister had remained in KL, surely it would have given to someone, not stowed awy secretly.

[Faera]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh, I'd like to read that theory.  Where is it?  Link?

Oh, it’s just my initial post to this thread so I might be using “theory” lightly at this point...

It is only the seedling of a theory I have yet to develop properly on how Hodor fully becomes one of Bran’s skins and how they could change each other as a result. This post sort of touches on that but it mainly focuses on the thematic qualifiers for Bran-Hodor short becoming like a single person and how they could end up using Dark Sister.

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Faera said:

Oh, it’s just my initial post to this thread so I might be using “theory” lightly at this point...

It is only the seedling of a theory I have yet to develop properly on how Hodor fully becomes one of Bran’s skins and how they could change each other as a result. This post sort of touches on that but it mainly focuses on the thematic qualifiers for Bran-Hodor short becoming like a single person and how they could end up using Dark Sister.

 OK,  I see.  You don't have to have a fully development theory to start another thread.  You can explore an idea this way.  Lot's of people open threads for that purpose.

[Faera]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 OK,  I see.  You don't have to have a fully development theory to start another thread.  You can explore an idea this way.  Lot's of people open threads for that purpose.

I guess I'm a bit shy...

Though I guess I'll take the plunge in the next few days and actually post it.

[Leo of House Cartel]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

So long as I get the autograph, Brother.   

Euron dreamed of flying when he was young.  There is no reason BR wouldn't have undergone the same type of contact as Bran--some crazy bird pecking at his forehead.  The thing with BR is he's magical on both sides, which I find utterly fascinating.  I suspect he was very young, maybe as young as Bran when he began to feel the call of his destiny.  This is great stuff, I can always rely on your memory and imagination to fill in those dark holes in my sense of reason and wonder.   

Yes, I can see BR's time with the NW as a time of preparation.  With the snipers--love that, you really are on a roll in this one.   Jeor seemed to be preparing as well--a throw back to previous command?   This is good.  This is really good, Leo.   

For sure, I can totally see one of those COTF that were plugged into the weirwood as Brynden's own dream messenger.

As for Mormont, it really looks like he knew something in regards to the Long Night, perhaps some knowledge from his time under Qorgyle, who may have served with BR - his parlay with Tyrion just has this ominous tone hanging through it - note how this passage starts with Tyrion mentioning Jeor's dreams

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

 Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."

"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord … but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."

"The gods help me if I do not get some sleep tonight. Yoren is determined to ride at first light." Tyrion got to his feet, sleepy from wine and tired of doom. "I thank you for all the courtesies you have done me, Lord Mormont."

"Tell them, Tyrion. Tell them and make them believe. That is all the thanks I need." He whistled, and his raven flew to him and perched on his shoulder. Mormont smiled and gave the bird some corn from his pocket, and that was how Tyrion left him.

 

So, we have mentions of The Old Bear's dreams and sleep, both of which make me think of our beloved Lord Rivers. Note the "edge" in Jeor's voice, as well as mentioning both the Long Night and the Gods - it certainly sounds like he believes in the Others. 

 

What is even more odd is how Mormont ends this exchange in which he was clearly feeling fear - he smiles and feeds the raven corn.

Strange, that the ever gruff Lord Commander would show rare weakness and fragility to a stranger like Tyrion, who he was also technically trying to haggle with for political/financial help, only to end the scene by smiling at that "god forsaken" bird. 

I think there's a strong chance Mormont was visited in his dreams by Bloodraven, judging by The Old Bear's somewhat erratic behaviour during this parlay, aswell as the mentions of sleep and dreams.

 

CF, in regards to Bloodraven taking Dark Sister North with him, might it be possible that Egg - another sorcerer -  allowed it because Brynden had somehow made him a believer in the Long Night? If BR's greensight had developed by this point then me night have known much about the wars to come. With BR telling Egg about the wars to come (and maybe even taking him to the Godswood for proof) we could have a decent reason for why Aegon V sent his insanely useful cousin to The Wall - beyond "punishing" him for the Blackfyre murder.

 

Another reason Egg might have allowed Dark Sister to go North is that he might have been aware of Dragon Steel's power against the White Walkers - if Rivers knew he was going to need to go beyond the Wall then a sword like DS would be invaluable.

It might explain why Egg was so obsessed with hatching Dragons too.

 

One more thing my friend, what is your opinion on that Valyrian Arakh? Who might have made it? The Dothraki first rode out of the wastes after Valyria's Doom, so I wonder if this sword was the first ever to be shaped in the fashion most associated with the Horse Lords? Or perhaps the blade was of Qohorik origin, an old VS sword reforged to impress some Dothraki  maybe?