Sorcerers and Swords

[Curled Finger]

On 2/19/2018 at 10:49 AM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I am actually thinking Jon is destined for a certain white sword and idk why except destiny.

Nightfall.... I don't think I wanna know about that one lol sounds morbid 

Widow's wail? Loras via Tommen? Why even put that in there GRRM? Lol

Heartsbane will find a good home thanks to Samwell

My wildest guess is lady forlorn to Sandor via Sansa after she outwits some of the vale

Red Rain is absolutely changing hands. (Tyrell's again maybe? Euron? Not sure we've heard from house drumm much but Andrik the unsmiling stood for them at the kings moot and was named a shield island lord so... Euron could be scheming (go figure)

I have one more crazy one.... And please realize I realize I'm 100% wrong most likely but I haven't heard this theory.........Darkstar with Orphan-Maker ("he was sword of the morning, I am of the night, the dornish mans blade was made of black steel and it's kiss was a terrible thing) 

And bc of his prowess he already be the sword of the morning but seems a bit bitter with the "he had a good sword" comment regarding Arthur but it's still possible.

I have an even bigger crackpot for orphan maker I've discussed with @Curled Finger but I don't wanna get too loony lol

And I also see Euron getting a VS sword bc 

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Of his forsaken chapter reveal with the armor

 

I'm late to the party again, forgive me One-eyed.  Yah, @Lady Dacey did a lovely job illustrating Arya as a sorcerer for us.   Matching characters to classic D&D characters is a lot of fun.  

Much as I hate it, I think you're on to something with frickin' Euron.  He's gonna need something bitchen to accessorize his nifty new suit.   There is something foreboding in the name Nightfall, particularly when compared to a name like, oh maybe Dawn.   Just so happens Nightfall is right there with Euron.   A moment of silence for our fallen Harlaw...  Nightfall does seem a likely addition to Euron's cache of cool stuff, even if I was hoping he would bust out with Brightroar and Orphan Maker actually matches his suit!    Yes, you got me looking at black when looking at OM.   HOWEVER, I like your Darkstar/OM match and wonder if Darkstar couldn't be the 1 to claim Nightfall for the quest of the dozen companions???

We do enjoy our sword geek foolishness, Brother.   I love to see you have a good time.  

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Faera said:

That sounds so interesting!   Sure, I don't mind you adapting my tierd. It's why I suggested it. I have to admit I found them a hellalota fun. That brainstorm I randomly had about Theon really opened my eyes to how he might get to wield DS at some point. Tied into @kissdbyfire suggestion in my Bran-Hodor thread of an idea of hers she linked me to that Bran might also skin-change Theon, it makes me wonder if Dark Sister might be Bran's sword, out in the hands of his various human skins he acquires.

While obviously most of you have already seen it, I'll link the thread I made here for the extended Bran-Hodor idea here as promised:

 

 

I'm happy to share those ideas if you ever want to hear them. 

 

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I know this almost sounds like King Arthur-y but what if an iconic "hero's" sword ended up in Euron's hands after being stolen? I'm not married to the idea but if Euron does turn out to be the big, big bad of the series it seems he's benefit from a VS weapon...

(Plus, it occurred to me briefly that the existence of two Targaryen VS blades semi parallels Arthuriana with Excalibur and Clarent).

Oh my! What if it is revealed that Aegon has Blackfyre and that gets stolen, ending up in Euron's hands?! He'd have VS armour, a VS sword and possibly one of Dany's dragons to ride around on.

OT: I actually wonder if Darkstar or little Edric Dayne (if there is some sort of time jump or acceleration) will wield Dawn. It almost feels that Darkstar could be the best candidate at the moment to use it but is denied it due to him being a cadet branch Dayne or simply because he's a loose cannon and thus too dangerous.

Because I was so prolific in posting topics there for a few minutes and posting in other topics I found myself on the receiving end of some inhospitable writing.  That's not what I think a book club should be.   It's important to give credit where it's due and I really appreciate the logic you wrote so well for following the swords and heroes.   Don't be surprised to see it in the opening paragraph.   People have wonderful ideas.  Very often something doesn't make sense to me on 1st read, but once I understand a person's thought process a lot of sense usually comes out.   As I say, I'm very slow to grasp the very new.  Getting everyone on the same page never ever hurts and you've put a very nice process to it.   Thanks so much for allowing me to quote.

Get @One-eyed Misbehavin to tell you his crazy idea about Orphan Maker.   I loved it.   

If you really enjoy the swords and match ups or mash ups as the case may be, we've had some good times together and with posters we don't see much anymore.   Off the top of my head, Let's Find the Swords was the most informative, but Valyrian Steel Free For All was a lot of fun.  I believe our talented @Cridefea was able to actually post our timeline into the Free For All topic.  It's really good to welcome a new sword geek to the family, Faera!  

[hiemal]

On 2/4/2018 at 4:45 PM, Curled Finger said:

It is believed that that the famed Targaryan Valyrian Steel sword, Dark Sister, was forged for a woman’s hand because of its slender blade.   At least one woman, Visenya Targaryan, wielded it during the conquest.  “Even those who loved her best found Visenya stern, serious, unforgiving, and some said that she played with poisons and dabbled in dark sorceries.”  AWOAIF Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Visenya gave Dark Sister to her son, Maegor, upon his 14^th name day.  Following years of distinguishing himself as a fighter, King Aenys seems to have traded the larger Blackfyre for Dark Sister with his brother.  Maegor The Cruel was cunning and fierce, hard and unsmiling.  He was a man of singular values in taking multiple wives and working in sorcery.  Upon Visenya’s death in 44 AC, Aeny’s wife, Alyssa Velaryon, absconded with Dark Sister to Driftmark.   When Maegor finally dies upon the Iron Throne,  Alyssa’s son, Jaehaerys seems to have taken possession of both Dark Sister and Blackfyre.   Though Jaehaerys was known as the Concilliator and his sister wife Alyssanne was called The Good Queen, it is thought by some that their Hand, Septon Barth, was a sorcerer.  However, there is no mention of Jaehaerys wielding either Blackfyre or Dark Sister.  

The old king Jaehaerys awarded Dark Sister to his grandson Daemon, when he was knighted.  Presumably the heir, Viserys, was gifted with Blackfyre.  The system seems to be that the heir and future king is given Blackfyre while Dark Sister is awarded to another (Targaryan) for his fighting skill.   Daemon held multiple positions at court as well as commanded the City Watch.  He was known to associate with thugs and the dishonored.  However, his stance and penchant for handing out hard punishment resulted in a sharp decrease in crime.  Several comparisons can be drawn between Maegor The Cruel and Daemon the Rogue Prince.  Daemon coined the term “Dark Sister has a thirst for blood.”  He was also widely suspected to be a sorcerer.  Daemon lost Dark Sister when he placed her in the skull, via the eye, of Prince Aemon One Eye and they both fell to their deaths along with their dragons over the God’s Eye.     

Prince Aemon’s body and Dark Sister were eventually recovered. 

Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, known for his courage and chivalry, used Dark Sister to defend his sister, Naery’s honor, who was married to their brother,  Aegon IV The Unworthy.  Dark Sister figured prominently in Aemon’s wars with Dorne.  Aemon’s  grandfather was Daemon the Rogue Prince.  Dark Sister was returned to House Targaryan sometime after The Dragonknight  was killed in Dorne and passed to the possession of Aegon IV. 

Brynden Rivers needs no explanation.   His reputation as a spy, warrior and sorcerer is indelible throughout the books and Dunc & Egg stories.   There is only a mention of Bloodraven wearing Dark Sister upon his hip with no explanation for how he attained the sword.   It’s safe to assume that as the non-heir warrior,  Bloodraven was awarded Dark Sister for his own talent and skill with a sword.  There is an SSM wherein GRRM states that BR carried Dark Sister.  ‘Nuff said.  We are all familiar with Bloodraven’s story and understand that Dark Sister is “lost” somewhere between King’s Landing and The Greenseers’Cave.  Was BR permitted to take this ancestral sword to the Wall?  Was she lost in one of the Blackfyre Rebellions?  Was she passed on to Daeron or Aegon V?  Dunc?  Did Bloodraven have a child this sword may have passed to?   Someone else?  Does Sheira Seastar and her propensity for sorcery matter anywhere  in this?

To date the known wielders of Dark Sister are Visenya, Maegor, Daemon the Rogue Prince, Aemon the Dragon Knight and Bloodraven.  5 of the 6 are known to be or suspected sorcerers.  Sorcery is heavily related to fire magic in Valyrians and Red Priests.   Other noted sorcerers are the Warlocks of Qaarth, Septon Barth, Varys and Euron.   Shade of the Evening is said to be the drink of sorcerers.   What then do we define Bran’s bloody acorn paste as since it is given to enhance his abilities…Is Bran a sorcerer?  Should we be looking at Melisandre to wield this exquisite weapon at some point?   Can Arya be considered a sorcerer with her new training and abilities?  Jon? 

So many important questions! If Longclaw is not Dark Sister than I am stumped on its current location. I believe Shade of the Evening is a corruption of weirwood paste. I'm going to begin playing catch-up with this thread tonight but I wanted to fire a quick bit of tinfoil because that's what I do: Bright Sister- the third, secret Targ VS "sword" which was transformed into Rhaegar's "silver" harp at some point. It's always bugged me that the Dragon would have three heads but only two swords. Rhaenys was bright to Visenya's darkness and silver seems an odd choice for making a harp. Could be another category- conquerors, sorcerers, knights, and bards? Bards and Fools do seem like an important force in the world, in opposition the maesters of the Citadel who have their ties to VS in their links for the "higher mystery". Just something to ponder.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

So many important questions! If Longclaw is not Dark Sister than I am stumped on its current location. I believe Shade of the Evening is a corruption of weirwood paste. I'm going to begin playing catch-up with this thread tonight but I wanted to fire a quick bit of tinfoil because that's what I do: Bright Sister- the third, secret Targ VS "sword" which was transformed into Rhaegar's "silver" harp at some point. It's always bugged me that the Dragon would have three heads but only two swords. Rhaenys was bright to Visenya's darkness and silver seems an odd choice for making a harp. Could be another category- conquerors, sorcerers, knights, and bards? Bards and Fools do seem like an important force in the world, in opposition the maesters of the Citadel who have their ties to VS in their links for the "higher mystery". Just something to ponder.

How tinfoily can it be if even I agree Rhaenys having no fabled sword is weird, too?  Why would Longclaw be Dark Sister?   Longclaw has been around at least 200 years longer.  I do like you sword name, though--Bright Sister--just perfect.  No one seems particularly surprised by Longclaw--then again, there was no massive outrage when Widows Wail turned up either.   The Harp...let me get back to you on that--it's just so new and shiny.  Well Ser, you and I are on exactly the same page.   There are other categories, I'm just not certain how many.   I just posted a new topic regarding those categories as a matter of fact.   And oh yes, I think you're spot on about Bards and Fools.  I wonder why the maesters chose VS to represent the higher mysteries?  Still the connection is there for us to make something out of it.  Do you have any thoughts on this?  I love it when you drop by and hope to see a lot more of you.   Thanks for your always clever and ponderous thoughts. 

[hiemal]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How tinfoily can it be if even I agree Rhaenys having no fabled sword is weird, too?  Why would Longclaw be Dark Sister?   Longclaw has been around at least 200 years longer. 

Convenience only. I have a desire to simplify the swords (among other things) and that's just my best guess- that something is going on here and Jeor didn't actually take Longclaw with him from Bear Isle.  I do love me some tinfoil.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

No one seems particularly surprised by Longclaw--then again, there was no massive outrage when Widows Wail turned up either.   The Harp...let me get back to you on that--it's just so new and shiny.  Well Ser, you and I are on exactly the same page.   There are other categories, I'm just not certain how many.   I just posted a new topic regarding those categories as a matter of fact.   And oh yes, I think you're spot on about Bards and Fools.  I wonder why the maesters chose VS to represent the higher mysteries?  Still the connection is there for us to make something out of it.  Do you have any thoughts on this?  I love it when you drop by and hope to see a lot more of you.   Thanks for your always clever and ponderous thoughts. 

More questions anyways-

Do you think VS "classes" provide different, more subtle benefits beyond keenness and weight?

Are these differences, if they exist, innate (something that is acquired in the forging through sacrificial soul and elemental energies) or acquired (either by the nature of the first [or subsequent wielders?] or by "drinking" the soul energy of others through blood and fire or some combination of both scenarios- because I do think owning and using a VS does transfer some soul energy)? -whew-

Was Blackfyre always a conqueror's sword? Or did Aegon make it so?

 

Spitball- Dark Sister can store soul and elemental energies for "on the fly" magic like a "sacrifice battery" as well as functioning like a glass candle.

And another- Quaithe doesn't have a glass candle, she has DS.

 

 

[Seams]

6 hours ago, hiemal said:

So many important questions! If Longclaw is not Dark Sister than I am stumped on its current location. I believe Shade of the Evening is a corruption of weirwood paste. I'm going to begin playing catch-up with this thread tonight but I wanted to fire a quick bit of tinfoil because that's what I do: Bright Sister- the third, secret Targ VS "sword" which was transformed into Rhaegar's "silver" harp at some point. It's always bugged me that the Dragon would have three heads but only two swords. Rhaenys was bright to Visenya's darkness and silver seems an odd choice for making a harp. Could be another category- conquerors, sorcerers, knights, and bards? Bards and Fools do seem like an important force in the world, in opposition the maesters of the Citadel who have their ties to VS in their links for the "higher mystery". Just something to ponder.

omg. Thank you so much for this.

I know you are catching up on the thread. When you are ready, please help me to think through the harp-sword notion and the named whip given to Dany, known as the Harpy's Fingers. (Of course, everyone can dive in. I welcome anyone willing to let me play in this sandbox.) I was proud to realize that the named whip could be one part of a set of weapons that must be united with other weapons to be considered complete (posted earlier in this thread) but the Harpy / harp connection hadn't crossed my mind.

As for the role of the bard, I think singing is somehow important for the perfect knight. I'm still tangled up in Brienne's travels with Nimble Dick Crab and Pod (and, secretly tagging along, Hyle Hunt). Dick is a singer and story-teller, while Brienne says that she never sings. When the reader is introduced to Brienne way back in ACoK, however, she is riding a horse that is wearing blue bardings. And then we have a singer (implicated in the accusations against Margaery) called the Blue Bard. 

I bet you're right about the harp representing a missing piece for the three heads of the dragon. And the person who plays that harp should be some sort of singer or bard . . . but there are also many references to fools in the Nimble Dick interlude. You're definitely onto something.

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Convenience only. I have a desire to simplify the swords (among other things) and that's just my best guess- that something is going on here and Jeor didn't actually take Longclaw with him from Bear Isle.  I do love me some tinfoil.

More questions anyways-

Do you think VS "classes" provide different, more subtle benefits beyond keenness and weight?

Are these differences, if they exist, innate (something that is acquired in the forging through sacrificial soul and elemental energies) or acquired (either by the nature of the first [or subsequent wielders?] or by "drinking" the soul energy of others through blood and fire or some combination of both scenarios- because I do think owning and using a VS does transfer some soul energy)? -whew-

Was Blackfyre always a conqueror's sword? Or did Aegon make it so?

 

 

 

Well Ser, since you introduced me to the idea of the swords drinking souls I have given this some thought and this here is a product of that thought process.  We have been given some very specific examples of Blackfyre's er, ability to give good dance.  Granted the vast majority of bearers have been BAMFs, but it actually failed to conquer on the Redgrass field.  This was after drinking Lady Forlorn's bearer's soul following an hour of fighting.  When Daemon failed his son took up Blackfyre and was summarily killed.  We know the rest.  If there is a fate to this sword it must be in the right hands.  3 swords in the same battle and everyone dies by arrow.  It's sad.  What is even more sad is the continuing loss for Blackfyre.  Can Aegon 6 conquer with this blade?  Maybe.  But there are so many variables.  

I'm trying to economize my thoughts on the swords, too.  Lots of mysteries and too few clues.  With this new avenue of thought I'm trying to ignore the missing swords.   I'm not doing that great with it, but I am trying.  I've just about resigned Nightfall to Euron and so forth.   I believe with all I have that Dark Sister and Blackfyre will return to the story.   Happily that only leaves 7 swords to deal with!   

I think classes may help identify their purpose in the end.   GRRM said something about having a giant wolf pack and using it.  I expect it is something like that with magic weapons.    They aren't there to be forgotten.   They serve a purpose, probably a higher purpose.  I think all this power they absorb from those who wield them and those they kill does something to activate their magic, though the specificity eludes me.  I think Aegon and Maegor's powers are on Blackfyre as much as the hundreds it killed.   What would you classify Blackfyre as?  

[hiemal]

18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Well Ser, since you introduced me to the idea of the swords drinking souls I have given this some thought and this here is a product of that thought process.  We have been given some very specific examples of Blackfyre's er, ability to give good dance.  Granted the vast majority of bearers have been BAMFs, but it actually failed to conquer on the Redgrass field.  This was after drinking Lady Forlorn's bearer's soul following an hour of fighting.  When Daemon failed his son took up Blackfyre and was summarily killed.  We know the rest.  If there is a fate to this sword it must be in the right hands.  3 swords in the same battle and everyone dies by arrow.  It's sad.  What is even more sad is the continuing loss for Blackfyre.  Can Aegon 6 conquer with this blade?  Maybe.  But there are so many variables.  

I'm trying to economize my thoughts on the swords, too.  Lots of mysteries and too few clues.  With this new avenue of thought I'm trying to ignore the missing swords.   I'm not doing that great with it, but I am trying.  I've just about resigned Nightfall to Euron and so forth.   I believe with all I have that Dark Sister and Blackfyre will return to the story.   Happily that only leaves 7 swords to deal with!   

I think classes may help identify their purpose in the end.   GRRM said something about having a giant wolf pack and using it.  I expect it is something like that with magic weapons.    They aren't there to be forgotten.   They serve a purpose, probably a higher purpose.  I think all this power they absorb from those who wield them and those they kill does something to activate their magic, though the specificity eludes me.  I think Aegon and Maegor's powers are on Blackfyre as much as the hundreds it killed.   What would you classify Blackfyre as?  

As you have named it, the Conqueror's Blade. I think it likely that he was either its first wielder or the first to use to blood it in conquest and seal it in fire on his funeral pyre. The name pairs too well with Balerion's scales and flames.

Semi-related thought- does the Iron Throne "drink" blood? Maybe it has absorbed Maegor's soul energy? 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

As for the role of the bard, I think singing is somehow important for the perfect knight. I'm still tangled up in Brienne's travels with Nimble Dick Crab and Pod (and, secretly tagging along, Hyle Hunt). Dick is a singer and story-teller, while Brienne says that she never sings. When the reader is introduced to Brienne way back in ACoK, however, she is riding a horse that is wearing blue bardings. And then we have a singer (implicated in the accusations against Margaery) called the Blue Bard.

I'm about halfway through the thread but I couldn't wait for this part. On my current reread, just a couple days ago actually, I noticed that Cat is actually first "introduced" to Brienne by a knight whose sigil seems to be bluejays. They don't sing either!

 

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, hiemal said:

As you have named it, the Conqueror's Blade. I think it likely that he was either its first wielder or the first to use to blood it in conquest and seal it in fire on his funeral pyre. The name pairs too well with Balerion's scales and flames.

Semi-related thought- does the Iron Throne "drink" blood? Maybe it has absorbed Maegor's soul energy? 

ooooh, very interesting.  I like it.  

[hiemal]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:15 PM, Seams said:

 

Let's speculate for a moment that we might end up with a new version of Visenya, Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaenys on the Iron Throne.

Let us!

 

On 2/7/2018 at 10:15 PM, Seams said:

 I'll just randomly guess that Jon Snow might fulfill the role of Aegon. Who would be his sister-wives? We know he's the son of Ned Stark, so one sister wife could be Arya. Ewwww! I've heard a rumor somewhere that he might not actually be the son of Ned Stark, however, so maybe the Arya match is not biologically problematic. His second wife could be someone such as Daenerys Targaryen. If this trio is correct, we would need two swords and a dragon to represent the weapons of choice that were possessed by the Conquering Targ trio.

Hey! Daenerys has dragons! So that might work as a comparison. But she also has a weapon: a whip called the Harpy's Fingers. It has a dragonbone handle, so it seems as if it is a good fit for her. It has nine long leather lashes attached to it. Interesting, huh? If a harpy has hands like a human (and I don't know for sure that it does), it seems as if it would have ten fingers. Or an even number of some kind. But the whip has the problematic uneven number of nine "fingers". Where could we find one more finger to make it seem complete? Or, instead of a finger, perhaps one long claw?

Hey! Jon Snow has a weapon called Longclaw! What are the odds?

And the third weapon of the conquering trio has already been compared to Arya's sword. Hat trick!

I realize this is all speculation. It's not as if someone told Arya that she would marry a king and rule his castle, and have sons who would be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon. That would be crazy talk.

 

Harpy's Fingers. Great catch- last we see of the Harpy's Fingers they are being trodden into the dust outside of Astapor, iirc? The Harpists Fingers, Rhaegarr as fiery siren luring Lyana (and Elia?) to their Doom?

And Longclaw! Another good one! I don't I ever would have made that connection on my own in a million years. Kudos! Thinking about this whole scenario for now- it rotates my own triangle and replaces a corner (Arya with either Tyrion or Brienne- 75% to 25% if I'm feeling generous to my favorite Florian). Perhaps Dany could either lay hold of Blackfyre at some point, let's be honest its the best fit, or Drogon could qualify as a "Lightbringer" sword? I can totally see Arya with Dark Sister- it's been one of own picks for ages at least in terms of what I want to see happen.

On 2/7/2018 at 10:15 PM, Seams said:

Just a few more observations:

Like Dark Sister, dragons were "missing" until Dany intuitively found a way to hatch some. So maybe the recovery of Dark Sister will not occur when Bloodraven sends a raven to a worthy possessor, telling them where to dig, but when that worthy possessor intuitively figures out where the sword is or stumbles upon when looking for something else.

It's also possible that Dark Sister doesn't have to turn up again. (I know, CF - it's your thread so I will support the notion that it can and must be located.) But Needle, Longclaw and the Harpy's Fingers would fill the three openings for the new conquering trio I am envisioning. Just sayin'.

As much as I want Arya to find DS, or for Jon to secretly already have it (because, btw, this crop of Heroes is gender-inverted, Dany=Aegon, Jon=Visenya, and Tyrion=Rhaenys?) my new tinfoil is that Quaithe has it and is using it in lieu of a glass candle to influence Dany and Melisandre. Obviously, this is dependent on the tinfoil that Quaithe is Shiera and that BR gave it to her before going to the Wall.

On 2/7/2018 at 10:15 PM, Seams said:

I think it's significant that Arya's sword was taken at the same time Gendry's helmet was taken. Both Dark Sister and Aegon's crown are missing. Maybe they will be found by the same person. Arya found her sword but I don't think we've seen the bull helmet turn up again. Yet.

Like Dany's named weapon, the Harpy's Fingers, Robb Stark's crown has nine points. His were miniature long swords. The original crown of the Kings of Winter was also misplaced somewhere in time so Robb's crown was a replica. I think the missing crowns should be considered alongside the missing swords. Robb demanded the return of his family's great sword, Ice, but it was not returned. So, like Dany, he also lacked the complete set of ten "fingers".

(It is such a relief to finally have a rationale for the nine swords on that crown. If a pair of hands, whole and healthy, is supposed to have ten fingers, the King of Winter is incomplete unless he has both the one-pointed sword and the nine-pointed crown. So glad to finally work that out. I hope someone starts a discussion featuring nails and claws so we can further explore this possibility.)

Crowns, swords, and fingers. Awesome!

Aegon I VS crown stands out as one of the few non-martial VS artifacts floating around. I wonder how many rubies were set in it? What is the ultimate underlying symbolic meaning of the material crowns- black iron and bronze vs. VS and for example?

What if the original crown is part of a conqueror's set along with Blackfyre? And there is a corresponding piece that goes along with the sword of sorcerers?

[Seams]

14 hours ago, hiemal said:

I'm about halfway through the thread but I couldn't wait for this part. On my current reread, just a couple days ago actually, I noticed that Cat is actually first "introduced" to Brienne by a knight whose sigil seems to be bluejays. They don't sing either!

Brienne on Oathkeeper:

Even the sound of it is sharper than an ordinary sword.

(AFfC, Brienne IV)

This idea of a musical weapon may come together with several patterns that our host, @Curled Finger helped me to find through the "Brienne's Honor" discussion as well as @Faera's identification of the "Bran Hodor Conundrum": a single knight made out of the broken parts of people who would not be able to become knights on their own. (I began to explore some ideas about this chimera or patchwork knight but those are very preliminary ideas.)

Here are the elements that I think are especially relevant:

The Fool - Knight combination - Florian, of Florian and Jonquil fame, and Ser Dontos are fool/knight combinations. Penny and Groat (later Tyrion) may also fall within this category. Patchface wears a bucket helmet with antlers like the helmets worn by Robert and Renly. I want to say that singers and fools and mummers - maybe even storytellers - are all one category of people with wise but metaphorical insights about society, but that may be too broad a generalization. (I hope you can tell me the finer distinctions you see, if any.) It seems to be important that the knight is not really a knight - Dontos is stripped of his livery; Penny is female, short and she rides a dog; Patchface is a fool first and never engages in real combat. Nimble Dick, who sings snatches of songs on the journey to the Whispers, had a sigil patch on his filthy tunic but it has been ripped off of the garment - Brienne thinks he is a deserter. The singer / warrior combinations that have been presented to the reader are Rhaegar and Mance Rayder. Rhaegar is a singer first and takes training as a knight only because he thinks he needs to be one to fulfill a prophecy. Mance renounces his Night's Watch position to join the free folk. (I suspect a knight and a guard are different things - probably also sellswords and hedge knights - but maybe the differences will become clearer if we can sort out the fool / singer / mummer distinctions.)

Feminine and Masculine qualities combined - (See the "patchwork knight" link, above.) In GRRM's recipe, I don't think Aegon could have succeeded with brothers instead of sisters. There is something important about the combination of the genders. And this may partly explain the links I'm seeing between Brienne and The Stranger of the seven gods. The Stranger is neither male nor female.

Three heads - Aegon the Conqueror could not have consolidated the kingdom and ruled without the help of his sister wives. I think that their weapons (and dragons?) also had to work as a combination. Or - if you are right about the harp - the weapons are metaphors for the three parts that have to come together to create a successful trio: ice, fire and song. A Song of Ice and Fire. (Here's the post from a couple of weeks ago where I theorized that Longclaw might "complete" Dany's nine-lashed Harpy's Fingers.) If the idea of three heads and three rulers is correct, it might mean that our best clues about which Valyrian steel swords and other weapons will reappear will be to look for logical combinations - Truth, Just Maid and Ice would yield Truth and Justice, for instance. (I think that particular combination might be a little too trite for GRRM, but it's an example of what to look for.)

Music and words combined with weapons -

Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. (ASoS, Tyrion I)

The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," . . .

She screamed a word. (AFfC, Brienne VIII)

We know that oaths and vows and spells are important. What if songs and lyrics are a kind of spell necessary to making weapons effective? I'm thinking that some weapons could be  activated by music or lyrics. The attack at the Red Wedding was signaled by the song The Rains of Castamere. There were unique songs composed for Joffrey's wedding feast. If music is a weapon (or it activates weapons), that could also explain this line from Littlefinger: You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. (AGoT, Eddard IV) A music / weapons combination could also explain why Jon Snow found the obsidian cache and the "broken" horn in the same bundle.

If music and lyrics are essential to complete certain weapons, this could also explain why GRRM specifically describes ear injuries for certain characters - for some reason, those characters are supposed to have impaired hearing abilities. Other characters have lost their tongues or were silent from birth. Or, like Brienne, do not sing. I think her unwillingness to sing is linked to that moment when she finds her voice and screams a word, however.

23 hours ago, hiemal said:

So many important questions! If Longclaw is not Dark Sister than I am stumped on its current location.

I really like the idea that Mormont gave Jon a sword from Jon's own ancestry, not the sword of House Mormont. When Jeor dies, his last words are about forgiving Jorah. It always struck me as odd that the Lord Commander would give the family heirloom to Jon while still having it in mind for Jorah to return to Westeros. Instead of Dark Sister, though, I am thinking that the Mormonts might have been charged with keeping the original sword Ice for safekeeping, for some reason, until the right Stark descendant emerged to take it in hand. The VS sword that was melted down for Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail is important, and I think the "waves of night and blood" in the blade fit with the idea of combining pieces to make one super-knight or chimera. But that Ice was a replica of the original Ice, a sword that Catelyn told us was lost generations earlier. Jon only ever wanted the sword Ice. He may have the original already and he just doesn't realize it.

Edit: I hadn't seen your most recent post, just above this one, when I posted this. I have to take a break for real life, but will respond soon. Some great possibilities!

[Curled Finger]

@Seams I swear you have the most uncanny timing.   I posted a classification topic just last night having just discovered a connection between GRRM and Dungeons & Dragons.  hiemal has been schooling me on a few things regarding the character classes.  What I did find is that "knight" is not a principal classification--much to my surprise.  Fools fall under the auspices of Bards and keep the secret knowledge.  I'm thinking Old Nan is like this with her "true stories" from legend.  So I'm looking at Patchface with that same dumb stare I always look at him with, but I am beginning to understand his value to the story.  Far be it from me to say his nonsense is gibberish, but everyone here knows I would never have thought him prophetic.   To your melding of characteristics this fits very nicely with those of an age who grew up teaching our children Marlo Thomas' gender obliterating "Free to Be, You and Me".  GRRM is of that age.   I wrote a paper on it the only reason I remember it all.   The premise was to eliminate all gender description, no more he or she but some other word to describe people.  It's a very nice idea, but does little to celebrate the beauty in the differences between the sexes.   A sheath is as important as a sword.  As we're really examining in @Faera's Bran-Hodor Conundrum, the need for another to complete not just the broken characters is a fact in ASOIAF.  Jamie needs Brienne to realize his own potential as much as Stannis needs both Melisandre and Davos to provoke him to movement as much as Bran needs Hodor to become a perfect knight.  Is Arya a foil for Lady Sansa?  I think when they were little, yes--I don't know if their stories will ever cross paths again.  That tells me Arya has someone, probably many someones she needs to connect with in the story left.  Whether it's Dany or Jon or Cersei or Justin Massey I cannot say.   Her purpose will become apparent when she is given more pack again.  It's likely Sansa is frickin Little Finger's foil and isn't that a wonderful consideration! You are not alone in finding the whole Jeor-Jon-Longclaw-Jorah dynamic peculiar.  I've sort of made peace with the less than romantic idea that Jeor wanted Jorah to reclaim some honor--join the NW so his transgressions would be forgiven.   But I'm with you on Longclaw's possible origins.   We don't even know where the Mormonts come from--this sword with that family is a much deeper story than we have.   I love where you've gone with this Seams.   

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On 2/24/2018 at 0:32 PM, Curled Finger said:

Because I was so prolific in posting topics there for a few minutes and posting in other topics I found myself on the receiving end of some inhospitable writing.  That's not what I think a book club should be.   It's important to give credit where it's due and I really appreciate the logic you wrote so well for following the swords and heroes.   Don't be surprised to see it in the opening paragraph.   People have wonderful ideas.  Very often something doesn't make sense to me on 1st read, but once I understand a person's thought process a lot of sense usually comes out.   As I say, I'm very slow to grasp the very new.  Getting everyone on the same page never ever hurts and you've put a very nice process to it.   Thanks so much for allowing me to quote.

Get @One-eyed Misbehavin to tell you his crazy idea about Orphan Maker.   I loved it.   

If you really enjoy the swords and match ups or mash ups as the case may be, we've had some good times together and with posters we don't see much anymore.   Off the top of my head, Let's Find the Swords was the most informative, but Valyrian Steel Free For All was a lot of fun.  I believe our talented @Cridefea was able to actually post our timeline into the Free For All topic.  It's really good to welcome a new sword geek to the family, Faera!  

Don’t you love when your opinion is called wrong? Non-sense I shall stand for @Curled Finger as his champion.

Message me details please bc I’m nosey like that lol 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Bookmarking, in case I get my shit together and spend more than 5 minutes on the internet at any point soon. ish. 

 

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Don’t you love when your opinion is called wrong? Non-sense I shall stand for @Curled Finger as his champion.

Message me details please bc I’m nosey like that lol 

I don't mind being wrong.  That's part of the learning process.   It is the rudeness with which people seem to drop their written hammers.   I'm getting good at ignoring them.   I do appreciate the support though! 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Bookmarking, in case I get my shit together and spend more than 5 minutes on the internet at any point soon. ish. 

 

Well it would be a damned fine thing to chat with you again.  

[hiemal]

On 2/25/2018 at 2:34 PM, Seams said:

Brienne on Oathkeeper:

Even the sound of it is sharper than an ordinary sword.

(AFfC, Brienne IV)

This idea of a musical weapon may come together with several patterns that our host, @Curled Finger helped me to find through the "Brienne's Honor" discussion as well as @Faera's identification of the "Bran Hodor Conundrum": a single knight made out of the broken parts of people who would not be able to become knights on their own. (I began to explore some ideas about this chimera or patchwork knight but those are very preliminary ideas.)

Here are the elements that I think are especially relevant:

The Fool - Knight combination - Florian, of Florian and Jonquil fame, and Ser Dontos are fool/knight combinations. Penny and Groat (later Tyrion) may also fall within this category. Patchface wears a bucket helmet with antlers like the helmets worn by Robert and Renly. I want to say that singers and fools and mummers - maybe even storytellers - are all one category of people with wise but metaphorical insights about society, but that may be too broad a generalization. (I hope you can tell me the finer distinctions you see, if any.) It seems to be important that the knight is not really a knight - Dontos is stripped of his livery; Penny is female, short and she rides a dog; Patchface is a fool first and never engages in real combat. Nimble Dick, who sings snatches of songs on the journey to the Whispers, had a sigil patch on his filthy tunic but it has been ripped off of the garment - Brienne thinks he is a deserter. The singer / warrior combinations that have been presented to the reader are Rhaegar and Mance Rayder. Rhaegar is a singer first and takes training as a knight only because he thinks he needs to be one to fulfill a prophecy. Mance renounces his Night's Watch position to join the free folk. (I suspect a knight and a guard are different things - probably also sellswords and hedge knights - but maybe the differences will become clearer if we can sort out the fool / singer / mummer distinctions.)

Feminine and Masculine qualities combined - (See the "patchwork knight" link, above.) In GRRM's recipe, I don't think Aegon could have succeeded with brothers instead of sisters. There is something important about the combination of the genders. And this may partly explain the links I'm seeing between Brienne and The Stranger of the seven gods. The Stranger is neither male nor female.

"At Maidenpool, Lord Mooton's red salmon still flew above the castle on its hill, but the town walls were deserted, the gates smashed, half the homes and shops burned or plundered. They saw nothing living but a few feral dogs that went slinking away at the sound of their approach. The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

Jaime took one look and burst into song. "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . ." ...ASoS

 

The lovers," Shagwell sighed loudly, "and what a lovely sight they are. 'Twould be cruel to separate the good knight and his lady." Then he laughed that high shrill laugh of his, and said, "Ah, but which one is the knight and which one is the lady?" ... ASoS

 

On 2/25/2018 at 2:34 PM, Seams said:

 

Three heads - Aegon the Conqueror could not have consolidated the kingdom and ruled without the help of his sister wives. I think that their weapons (and dragons?) also had to work as a combination. Or - if you are right about the harp - the weapons are metaphors for the three parts that have to come together to create a successful trio: ice, fire and song. A Song of Ice and Fire. (Here's the post from a couple of weeks ago where I theorized that Longclaw might "complete" Dany's nine-lashed Harpy's Fingers.) If the idea of three heads and three rulers is correct, it might mean that our best clues about which Valyrian steel swords and other weapons will reappear will be to look for logical combinations - Truth, Just Maid and Ice would yield Truth and Justice, for instance. (I think that particular combination might be a little too trite for GRRM, but it's an example of what to look for.)

Perhaps even something like Blackfyre, Rhaegar's harp, and Aegon I's crown? I wonder if each "side" might end up with three weapons or artifacts?

Long claws, Little Fingers... I think LC completing the Harpy's Fingers intriguing.

On 2/25/2018 at 2:34 PM, Seams said:

 

Music and words combined with weapons -

Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. (ASoS, Tyrion I)

The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," . . .

She screamed a word. (AFfC, Brienne VIII)

We know that oaths and vows and spells are important. What if songs and lyrics are a kind of spell necessary to making weapons effective? I'm thinking that some weapons could be  activated by music or lyrics. The attack at the Red Wedding was signaled by the song The Rains of Castamere. There were unique songs composed for Joffrey's wedding feast. If music is a weapon (or it activates weapons), that could also explain this line from Littlefinger: You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. (AGoT, Eddard IV) A music / weapons combination could also explain why Jon Snow found the obsidian cache and the "broken" horn in the same bundle.

If music and lyrics are essential to complete certain weapons, this could also explain why GRRM specifically describes ear injuries for certain characters - for some reason, those characters are supposed to have impaired hearing abilities. Other characters have lost their tongues or were silent from birth. Or, like Brienne, do not sing. I think her unwillingness to sing is linked to that moment when she finds her voice and screams a word, however.

 

"We could hear them singing," the old warrior said. "It was a good song, and they sang it bravely."

"They sang better than they fought. Harps would have done them as much good as their lances did."

"... ACoK

 

The more I think about it...

 

On 2/25/2018 at 2:34 PM, Seams said:

I really like the idea that Mormont gave Jon a sword from Jon's own ancestry, not the sword of House Mormont. When Jeor dies, his last words are about forgiving Jorah. It always struck me as odd that the Lord Commander would give the family heirloom to Jon while still having it in mind for Jorah to return to Westeros. Instead of Dark Sister, though, I am thinking that the Mormonts might have been charged with keeping the original sword Ice for safekeeping, for some reason, until the right Stark descendant emerged to take it in hand. The VS sword that was melted down for Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail is important, and I think the "waves of night and blood" in the blade fit with the idea of combining pieces to make one super-knight or chimera. But that Ice was a replica of the original Ice, a sword that Catelyn told us was lost generations earlier. Jon only ever wanted the sword Ice. He may have the original already and he just doesn't realize it.

 I think the Dark Sister/Longclaw theory is a Dark Horse/Longshot, but proximity makes it impossible to ignore. I love the idea of LC being Ice- hadn't thought of that one.

 

 

[Curled Finger]

On 2/26/2018 at 7:03 PM, hiemal said:

 I think the Dark Sister/Longclaw theory is a Dark Horse/Longshot, but proximity makes it impossible to ignore. I love the idea of LC being Ice- hadn't thought of that one.

 

 

It is a cool idea!

[Seams]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:03 PM, hiemal said:

"At Maidenpool, Lord Mooton's red salmon still flew above the castle on its hill, but the town walls were deserted, the gates smashed, half the homes and shops burned or plundered. They saw nothing living but a few feral dogs that went slinking away at the sound of their approach. The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

Jaime took one look and burst into song. "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . ." ...ASoS

 

The lovers," Shagwell sighed loudly, "and what a lovely sight they are. 'Twould be cruel to separate the good knight and his lady." Then he laughed that high shrill laugh of his, and said, "Ah, but which one is the knight and which one is the lady?" ... ASoS

 

Perhaps even something like Blackfyre, Rhaegar's harp, and Aegon I's crown? I wonder if each "side" might end up with three weapons or artifacts?

Long claws, Little Fingers... I think LC completing the Harpy's Fingers intriguing.

"We could hear them singing," the old warrior said. "It was a good song, and they sang it bravely."

"They sang better than they fought. Harps would have done them as much good as their lances did."

"... ACoK

 

The more I think about it...

 

 I think the Dark Sister/Longclaw theory is a Dark Horse/Longshot, but proximity makes it impossible to ignore. I love the idea of LC being Ice- hadn't thought of that one.

I'm like Sam Tarley, sitting in the library overnight, watching a mouse chew a path through a book, letting one source lead me to another and then another. So many ideas coming together at once! My head is exploding.

So the pool at Maidenpool, filled with dead bodies instead of maidens, is probably a symbolic "stew" and Jaime and Brienne later sharing a bath is maybe another symbolic "stew" where Jaime and Brienne are united to make that asexual combination of maid and man. Sort of a consomme consummation? 

I really, really like the idea of a sword, crown and musical instrument being a necessary combination to create a complete king or ruler. Maybe this will explain why some guys die soon after being crowned - they didn't realize they needed all three pieces to be a complete king. Or, I don't know - maybe they die when they finally get all three. Or maybe it's like a combination lock: you have to have all three correct items in order to be the real king - you can't wear someone else's crown or use the wrong sword. If you get the correct sword and crown but the wrong song, then you die. (Like playing the game of Clue, where you need to get the correct murderer, weapon and room to solve the mystery and win the game. You are eliminated if one of the three is not right.)

But crowns are also metal circles, and those have seemed really important in different contexts - links of chains or of mail, iron rings in dungeons, slave shackles. So it makes sense to me that a crown would be as important as a sword to creating a trio of worthy people - rulers in this case. (I wonder whether a different metal circle will be necessary to complete a trio of warriors or strangers or maid, mother and crone or other combinations of three?)

Here's a little window into how convoluted thinking can become when trying to sort out a set of GRRM symbols. a good bit of my thinking over the last 24 hours fell back on my old standby, wordplay. I wondered whether the many references to sharp blades could be a hint about your weapon-turned-to-harp idea, or even a harp-as-weapon interpretation.

Most of my thinking about the word "sharp" had been prompted by Bran noticing that all the Stark statues in the Winterfell crypt showed either "sharp" or "shaggy" lords and kings, so I went back to re-read an old post about that. Not surprisingly, that sharp/shaggy thread explores the idea of shaving and haircuts - the moments when shagginess and sharpness come together.

But I was struck by something new: people with shaved heads being compared to skulls. Here's an example:

"The realm knows Jaime Lannister as a beardless knight with long golden hair. A bald man with a filthy yellow beard may pass unnoticed. I'd sooner not be recognized while I'm in irons."

The dagger was not as sharp as it might have been. Cleos hacked away manfully, sawing and ripping his way through the mats and tossing the hair over the side. The golden curls floated on the surface of the water, gradually falling astern. As the tangles vanished, a louse went crawling down his neck. Jaime caught it and crushed it against his thumbnail. Ser Cleos picked others from his scalp and flicked them into the water. Jaime doused his head and made Ser Cleos whet the blade before he let him scrape away the last inch of yellow stubble. When that was done, they trimmed back his beard as well.

The reflection in the water was a man he did not know. Not only was he bald, but he looked as though he had aged five years in that dungeon; his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don't look as much like Cersei this way. She'll hate that.

(ASoS, Jaime I)

Skulls are complicated symbols, to be sure, but the biggest skull question for me is why GRRM created such a weird sigil for House Lonmouth - skulls and kisses. The lips may take us back to swords, however, because of the regular references to swords as smiles. (You were hoping I could bring this back to the OP, I know.) There are also a number of references to sharp bites and sharp teeth. 

But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own,

and a bite sharp and cold as a leech.

(ASoS, Jon I)

 

Habit made Jaime reach for his wine with his right hand. His stump rocked the goblet, spattering his clean linen bandages with bright red spots and forcing him to catch the cup with his left hand before it fell, but Bolton pretended not to notice his clumsiness. The northman helped himself to a prune and ate it with small sharp bites. "Do try these, Ser Jaime. They are most sweet, and help move the bowels as well. Lord Vargo took them from an inn before he burnt it."

"My bowels move fine, that goat's no lord, and your prunes don't interest me half so much as your intentions."

(ASoS, Jaime V)

 

So blades are used to shave heads, creating skulls. But smiles are like blades when they bite. Other sharp things that come from mouths? Words and tongues:

 

Catelyn had been a girl the last time she had visited the Twins, but even then Lord Walder had been irascible, sharp of tongue, and blunt of manner. 

(AGoT, Catelyn IX)

 

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. 

(ASoS, Tyrion I)

 

Mouths are weapons, in other words. Maybe we knew this from reading about the guy called Biter, who tries to turn Brienne's head into a skull while she's still alive. And the possible harp / sharp connection seems reinforced, to me, by the association between words and blades, with words coming from the sound family - music, lyrics, words, whistles, bird song, etc. 

 

I have to go out now but will try to get back to this later, with some additional thoughts about "sharp ears" and the sounds those ears pick up. Maybe also some thoughts about Ser Ilyn, who has a skull pommel on his hilt, runes on his blade, but no tongue. Sorry to meander on at such length.