Sorcerers and Swords

[Cridefea]

21 hours ago, Seams said:

More to the point, this would mean that Bloodraven getting and keeping possession of Dark Sister has some value to him other than its use as a combat weapon. The dynastic significance is nice, of course, but it seems like Bloodraven gave up pretty early any personal concern about proximity to power and instead worked to keep the "rightful" Targ in power. Is that similar to the function Visenya fulfilled for her brother / husband? Alyssa was trying to protect her son's life and his claim to the throne when she took the sword away.

Indeed! 

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As we see with Mirri, Marwin, Qyburn, Freehold sorcerers, Shiera who was bookish, etc, witchcraft and sorcery are specialized knowledge and I think that is a very important distinction from simply being magical in the way the Starks are skinchangers.

I don't think magic which just happens (skinchanging) is interchangeable with magic which happens only when one has acquired and practiced at special knowledge for years and years. As magical as Bran or Dany are, they've not studied any of the knowledge which has been attributed to other sorcerers in the series.

I agree, definitely different kind of magics.

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You're right and I apologize for not following your meaning right off the bat.   I really should know better by now, you never make an innocent statement!   Please forgive me, Cridefea. 

ahahahahah sorry I can be cryptic. Yesterday I also wrote in such a poor italian that I had to re-write part of thesis, don't know why. So all in all not a good day to write.

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Let me throw this out for your mind to ponder...It wasn't a Targ sword until Visenya held it.   That would render it non-ancestral and perhaps not Targish to the extent Blackfyre is.  I'm thinking it really is a sorcerer's sword and I already imagine it was some dark teacher who only tutored Visenya.   I thought of this hours ago---I've had lots of time to let it grow in my imagination!   The Targs were certainly the only dragon riding fire magic family in Westeros.   The Velaryons and Celtigars were not dragon riders despite being Valyrian.   Perhaps it works like a divining rod, searching out it's sorcerers?   This little conversation here has me narrowing down that future hero to 3 likely candidates, my friend.   Really nice catch about this mysterious sword, Cridefea.  

yes I agree, or it was done for Visenya. So it would be "Visenya's sword" for real. I said Velaryons baceause of Visenya's mother but it could be Cltigars' too (they already possessed the axe). Point is that in a culture where magic was something really valued, a VS sword with magical (?) characteristics should be passed from someone with special ability to someone who deserves it. So who? three?

Anyway this persuades me even more that DS is in the cave. There would be a reason for Bloodraven to carry it.

And a little bit OT but this helps us even with other VS swords. We can assume that if some of the swords are not ancestral, they are not passed in the way we thought (and in the place we thought) or at least that I thought. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Also I want to say that I had not considered someone else claiming longclaw while Jon is out of commission, but after reading it in this thread I think it is a real possibility, and gives Jon a greater chance to wield DS than I originally thought.

Winds spoiler below.

Spoiler

It just occurred to me that Aly Mormont is headed to the Wall in the Theon sample chapter from Winds.

I don't know that it will happen, but it's an option.

[kissdbyfire]

On 05/02/2018 at 6:00 PM, Faera said:

Bran-via-Hodor or Hodor might make sense. However, I do feel that if Hodor's sword were to break from him using it, he would probably just panic and curl up in a ball as he often does, so I feel it would have to be our significantly braver Bran to find an alternative weapon for them. Bran, as you said, is very much a type of sorcerer and Hodor is becoming "one of his skins", making them more and more like one entity.

Many interesting thoughts and ideas here. @Curled Finger strikes again!

It's kind of late and it's been a reaaaaally long day, so I don't have enough brain left at the mo to get into it properly. But as I was reading the above paragraph in @Faera's excellent post, it dawned on me that there's a good chance BR knows Hodor descends from Dunk. After all, at the time of Dunk and ON's fling, BR "ruled the 7K in all but name" (from memory so probably not verbatim). If Bran & co are in some type of dire straits and BR knows Bran can skinchange Hodor, would the fact that Hodor is Dunk's descendant weigh for BR at all? Would it make him more willing to give them this heirloom? 

I think BR has it in the cave... I don't think Egg would have made him give it up. And I agree Bran fits the sorcerer criteria. 

[kissdbyfire]

Ooopsie daisy

 

 

[divica]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Many interesting thoughts and ideas here. @Curled Finger strikes again!

It's kind of late and it's been a reaaaaally long day, so I don't have enough brain left at the mo to get into it properly. But as I was reading the above paragraph in @Faera's excellent post, it dawned on me that there's a good chance BR knows Hodor descends from Dunk. After all, at the time of Dunk and ON's fling, BR "ruled the 7K in all but name" (from memory so probably not verbatim). If Bran & co are in some type of dire straits and BR knows Bran can skinchange Hodor, would the fact that Hodor is Dunk's descendant weigh for BR at all? Would it make him more willing to give them this heirloom? 

I think BR has it in the cave... I don't think Egg would have made him give it up. And I agree Bran fits the sorcerer criteria. 

But someone as tall and strong as hodor wielding DS would look ridiculous...

Then I think it is more likely that BR hid the sword near castle black because he knew it was important and that it would be needed by the people in the watch. 

There is no logic reason to bring a valyrian sword (which may be able to kill others) to a cave where it is very unlikely any other human might use it again (BR thinks bran will never leave). Specially when BR belonged to the NW that would be the first enemies of the others. It is on the Wall that the sword would be needed the most!

In addition it is very likely that fAegon will get blackfyre because some old dude in the golden company or ilirio will know where it is. Don t forget that Bittersteal was thelast one seen with the sword and fAegon is fulfilling is dream. So it makes sense that someone gives him blackfyre.

Then we have alysane MORMONT going to castle black. It is very likely that jon will give her long claw and if jon needs a sword I could see someone sending him a dream of where DS is hidden... Although I doubt jon will be its final wielder I think it is probable that he will use it for a while.

[Megorova]

On 05.02.2018 at 11:33 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Dany doesn't know how to use a sword.

I don't think that she totally hopeless. She still can become a warrior-princess. She managed not to fall off the dragon. And she handled a whip fairly well, when her life was in danger. She saw it, and picked it up, to defend herself. And she's not a bad horserider:

Quote

The silver-grey filly moved with a smooth and silken gait, and the crowd parted for her, every eye upon them. Dany found herself moving faster than she had intended, yet somehow it was exciting rather than terrifying. The horse broke into a trot, and she smiled. Dothraki scrambled to clear a path. The slightest pressure with her legs, the lightest touch on the reins, and the filly responded. She sent it into a gallop, and now the Dothraki were hooting and laughing and shouting at her as they jumped out of her way. As she turned to ride back, a firepit loomed ahead, directly in her path. They were hemmed in on either side, with no room to stop. A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head.

The silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings.

She has courage at least.

And life is long, so she still can learn to wield a sword.

On 05.02.2018 at 11:33 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Jon has Longclaw

And for how long will he have it?

Isn't it ancestral sword of Mormonts? So when Jorah will return to Westeros, and they will meet, then Jon will give it back. Because when Lord Commander was giving Longclaw to Jon, he said that his son is gone, so there's no one else, to whom he can pass it. Though in case of Jorah's return, situation will be different.

Also those that killed/or tried to kill Jon, will take away his sword. Because Valyrian blade is a rarity. So other watchers may even fight against each other, to claim it after Jon's fall.

On 05.02.2018 at 11:33 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

dawn isn't lightbringer

It's so is. When dawn arrives, the world becomes light, and the night goes away.

Name of Daynes' / Azor Ahai's sword is a pun - Dawn = Lightbringer

Furthermore, based on description of Lightbringer, in Jon's vision-dream, the sword he was wielding then, wasn't Longclaw.

Add to that that Lightbringer should be a unique blade. But there are plenty of Valyrian steel blades (at least 10 of them), same as Longclaw. While the Dawn of Daynes, that was forged from meteorite ore, is a unique sword.

I think that it was made from part of the same comet, that appeared above Planetos in 298/299, after Rhaego's birth. And it wasn't first time, that that comet was passing near their planet. Comets have a tendency to return.

On 05.02.2018 at 11:33 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

and Rhaego is dead 

There was no body. No remnants at all. None was shown to Dany, none was burned at Drogo's funeral pyre, or buried.

Quote

When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption.

Where's his bones? The flesh disintegrated/rotted away, but what happened with his bones?

So Mirri's story is a load of bullshit.

The baby was taken by Khal Pono. And this was first of three treasons prophesied by the Undying, the one for blood. Dothraki were protecting the baby from his evil maegi mother, that doomed their khal. They couldn't let her have the Stallion that will mount the world. And thus they took the baby away. And Dany's three handmaids, and even Jorah, knew what really happened with the baby. But prior Dany woke up, they all agreed to lie to her, because they thought, that it will be for the best, if she won't know.

See? Jorah was ashamed and reluctant to lie to her:

Quote

“Tell me how my child died.”

“He never lived, my princess. The women say…” He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.

“Tell me. Tell me what the women say.”

He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. “They say the child was…”

She waited, but Ser Jorah could not say it. His face grew dark with shame. He looked half a corpse himself.

“Monstrous,” Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. “Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.”

Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. “My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent,” she said. “I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born.”

“That may be as it may be,” answered Mirri Maz Duur, “yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi.”

“Only shadows,” Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. “I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows.”

“The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord,” Mirri said. “Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back.”

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. “The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah,” she told him. The knight made no reply.

They decided beforehand, what they will tell Dany. But in the end Jorah was unable to say in her face, such outrageous lies. Thus Mirri had to say the rest of it.

So Rhaego is alive, and Dany will reunite with him not long after beginning of TWOW. And then she will burn alive Drogo's Ko, those that took her baby away. And this will be the second fire that she must light, from prophecies of the Undying, the one for death. Those people made her believe that her baby is dead, so she will pay them back. Drogon will Dracarys them.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Many thanks CF, I must say your stuff always gets the mind going and invites tremendous conversation!  Go right ahead with the file!

Another thing about Aemon and those Mystery Knights is that each has a name associated with elements of sorcery, and each represents the three big magical races.

Knight of The Laughing Tree, being a Crannogman, would stand for the Children of The Forrest, with some added support from the Old Gods on the Isle of Faces.

The Gallows Knight, Duncan The Tall, represents Giants. Gallows refers to a hangman's office - the most notable hang person in the tale would be Lady Stoneheart, reanimated through some sorcery. Another famous hanging would be that of "Mance Rayder", done at the command of Stannis and Mel's magical Red God.

The Knight of Tears would, of course, be an ambassador for dragons. The tears in his handle have magical association too - Alyysa's Tears, the waterfall that doesn't touch the ground, apparently a punishment from "the gods". The Isle of Tears, home to the hellish pit of blood magic that was Gorgossos. The Tears of Lys is a poison made by Lyseni alchemists - sorcerers, by any other name.

Thinking about Aemon's swordsmanship, I wonder if he ever had the idea to sharpen his mind as he had his swordplay - like an inverted version of Rhaegar's "it appears I am to be a warrior". Granted, we have no way of knowing what Aemon might have thought about prophecy, but if he ever heard TPTWP story, he could be forgiven for thinking the fable was referring to him, considering his fighting prowess and overly good soul.

Another of the Dragonknight's closest confidants, Queen Naerys always struck me as having some magic about her - the big eyes and nearly translucent, porcelain skin have been described as "other worldy" before.

I wonder how BR himself viewed Dark Sister - did he think of it as merely a sword or did it hold some higher value to him? - "bastard or no, I earned this blade and no one else shall have it".

Taking DS to The Wall seems like quite an odd move for such an apparently staunch Targaryen loyalist like BR. It would also be madness for Egg to allow Brynden to take the sword with him - it was the last Targaryen blade in Kings Landing after all, any old crook could steal in at the Wall.

What do you think really happened here CF? Did Bloodraven somehow steal the blade back before he went North, or did Egg give his "cousin" the sword?

Or we just like to flap our jaws about all this fabulous mystery!   Now I'm digging your parallels between the mystery knights and magic they represent...then you manage to sneak poison in!    Well done my friend.   I'm still waiting for you to write a book and sign it for me.   Very interesting inversion comparison between Rhaegar and Aemon.  Yes, could he have studied prophecy?  Blood and Fire some day, Brother!   I will be looking for connections between Aemon and the select others he shares the possession of Dark Sister with. 

Please pardon my sidetrack here.   I wondered when Bloodraven became aware of his greensight.  Was he very young?   Did he use those talents to aid in his position as Hand?  It's curious we never hear of any great deed he achieved in service to the Nights Watch other than becoming LC, of course he had some 50 votes walking in didn't he?   He was such a distinguished ruler of sorts.   You would think we would hear tales about him at the Wall.  He ranged.  Why?  Was he always the adventurous sort?  Was he being called by a 3 Eyed Crow himself?  Did he meet singers and giants?   I mean at some point he had to know precisely what he was.  

I think that when Dark Sister was bestowed upon Brynden Rivers it became his.   He had his own name--if memory serves, I think he could have taken the surname Targaryan being legitimized, his own sigil, colors, guard.  I think Dark Sister belongs to the Targ it's given to.   I'm sure there is something deeply symbolic to it, as our friends above have mentioned.  It's beginning to make my mind wander to magic calling to the hands that will wield it.  Dark Sister may well be a very magical sword that demanded to be in his hands.   Maybe he tried to give it away.  Maybe it was lost in 1 of the battles.  I think the damned thing just stayed with him because that's where it belonged.    You tell me, my brilliant Ser--is it plausible? 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Thanks and and great topic as usual btw....

I admit I had not considered sumerhall, but it is definitely a possibility as well. If DS were there I could see someone with aegon and the gc possibly picking it up, given the location of sumerhall in the dornish marchs, I couldn't say who because I think illyrio is gonna give aegon blackfyre.(however what bothers me about this is the fact that he hasn't done it already as far as we know, aegon is in westeros, he should have it, though this wasn't the original plan etc..). 

Also I want to say that I had not considered someone else claiming longclaw while Jon is out of commission, but after reading it in this thread I think it is a real possibility, and gives Jon a greater chance to wield DS than I originally thought.

Funny, I hadn't really thought of this as a topic so much as a thing I wanted to talk about with the community.   I'm pretty spoiled here.   I get great conversation with 99.9% of everyone who passes by.   TBH, I know the sword geeks and they are a great group to bounce things off of.  I got really lucky here with so many new folks willing to share their thoughts about this thing.   There are plenty of sword geeks who just don't know it yet!   

Interesting take on Summerhall--look to the Marches.  I like it.   You are a clever clever reader.  Blackfyre has been in the back of my mind--how could it not be with it's sister sword the focus of this discussion?  I agree with your thoughts that Blackfyre will return to the fore very soon and most likely in Aegon's story.   Which also gives me hope that Dark Sister may appear simultaneously.hope.hope.hope.   Who am I kidding?   Back door hodor, I am hell bent that all the swords will reappear.  

As I was trying to explain to @Leo of House Cartel above, I think these swords are all magic.   Maybe different magic, but magic nonetheless.  I think they call to the heroes who will wield them.  That is the beauty of their placement in the open and in hiding.  There are at least 2 strong theories I won't bore you with regarding their placement, but trust that Longclaw is precisely where it is destined (?) to be.  It also allows Jon to perhaps allow another sword with different magic to coincide with his own destiny.  Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Dawn or even ancestral Ice, I can't say--but I promise Jon Snow will have a powerful magic sword when Longclaw is gone.   Now if you have a mind--who do you see taking Longclaw next?   

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ha! I actually used to be, but mostly more of Eastern Asian styles of swords, Katana's and Wakizashi's mainly. I always liked how the Samurai would name their swords and thought it carried their Bushido spirit. Since all VS swords have names I guess its where I see a connection. 

Sorry Ralphis, but you can't hide it.  It shows!  

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Cridefea said:

yes I agree, or it was done for Visenya. So it would be "Visenya's sword" for real. I said Velaryons baceause of Visenya's mother but it could be Cltigars' too (they already possessed the axe). Point is that in a culture where magic was something really valued, a VS sword with magical (?) characteristics should be passed from someone with special ability to someone who deserves it. So who? three?

Anyway this persuades me even more that DS is in the cave. There would be a reason for Bloodraven to carry it.

And a little bit OT but this helps us even with other VS swords. We can assume that if some of the swords are not ancestral, they are not passed in the way we thought (and in the place we thought) or at least that I thought. 

Oh Sister that is a great question.  What are you thinking here?  Is there anything to the numerology of the possessors of Dark Sister or should we focus in on Visenya?  If Dark Sister was acquired through the Velaryons all sorts of possibilities become apparent.  After all, Alyssa, Aenys' wife, returned to Driftmark with DS when she stole it!  Intrigue...

I am inclined to agree with you that Dark Sister is with Bloodraven and that there was some destiny to his possessing and disappearing with her.  Perhaps he was protecting her?  

You probably don't realize you gave me chills when I read that last bit.   My head is screaming MORMONT!!!  

[divica]

12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As I was trying to explain to @Leo of House Cartel above, I think these swords are all magic.   Maybe different magic, but magic nonetheless.  I think they call to the heroes who will wield them.  That is the beauty of their placement in the open and in hiding.  There are at least 2 strong theories I won't bore you with regarding their placement, but trust that Longclaw is precisely where it is destined (?) to be.  It also allows Jon to perhaps allow another sword with different magic to coincide with his own destiny.  Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Dawn or even ancestral Ice, I can't say--but I promise Jon Snow will have a powerful magic sword when Longclaw is gone.   Now if you have a mind--who do you see taking Longclaw next?   

As things stand alysane will get the sword.

She is a mormont, she is a warrior and is going to the Wall. I don t think jon will resist giving her the sword. 

My biggest doubt about jon is if he will dream about where DS is hidden or if when rhaegar thought he was tPtwP he decided to find a magic sword that he left in the ToJ for jon when he decided that after all he was tPtwP. Then ned took the swoord to winterfell and hid it somewhere in the cripts. I mean, if rhaegar decided to learn how to fight because of the profecy then he must have searched for a magic sword. And we have no indication that the sword rhaegar used when he died was special.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Winds spoiler below.

  Reveal hidden contents

It just occurred to me that Aly Mormont is headed to the Wall in the Theon sample chapter from Winds.

I don't know that it will happen, but it's an option.

Widow, that was a good call.   She's on the list, too.  Any other guesses you care to venture?   I can use all the help I can get!   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Many interesting thoughts and ideas here. @Curled Finger strikes again!

It's kind of late and it's been a reaaaaally long day, so I don't have enough brain left at the mo to get into it properly. But as I was reading the above paragraph in @Faera's excellent post, it dawned on me that there's a good chance BR knows Hodor descends from Dunk. After all, at the time of Dunk and ON's fling, BR "ruled the 7K in all but name" (from memory so probably not verbatim). If Bran & co are in some type of dire straits and BR knows Bran can skinchange Hodor, would the fact that Hodor is Dunk's descendant weigh for BR at all? Would it make him more willing to give them this heirloom? 

I think BR has it in the cave... I don't think Egg would have made him give it up. And I agree Bran fits the sorcerer criteria. 

Didn't you make me shout Oh Hell Yes! the last time you popped in?   You do a great job for a tired Lady!  I never connected Hodor to Dunc in this light.  Oh Hell Yes!!!   Dark Sister would pass in a connected way.   GADS, kissdbyfire--just Wow.   Great stuff here--lots to consider.   Promise to return after you've rested and give up the things you remembered since?  Paradigm changing idea.     

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

I don't think that she totally hopeless. She still can become a warrior-princess. She managed not to fall off the dragon. And she handled a whip fairly well, when her life was in danger. She saw it, and picked it up, to defend herself. And she's not a bad horserider:

Riding a horse raised and broke and trained for riding is very different than picking up a weapon. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

She has courage at least.

Ser Vardis was courageous too........

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

And life is long, so she still can learn to wield a sword.

The first 5 books took us through 2 years.  So no.

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

And for how long will he have it?

Until he doesn't. But that doesn't matter. Dawn would still have to go north and be given to someone who is not a dayn, the only people who have ever wielded it. So no 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Isn't it ancestral sword of Mormonts? So when Jorah will return to Westeros, and they will meet, then Jon will give it back. Because when Lord Commander was giving Longclaw to Jon, he said that his son is gone, so there's no one else, to whom he can pass it. Though in case of Jorah's return, situation will be different.

 Who says Jorah will return?  Even if he does, who says he will meet Jon? This is not the thing we must not mention. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also those that killed/or tried to kill Jon, will take away his sword. Because Valyrian blade is a rarity. So other watchers may even fight against each other, to claim it after Jon's fall.

you assume Jon will die, and that people will abandon him and his corpse. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

It's so is. When dawn arrives, the world becomes light, and the night goes away. 

Name of Daynes' / Azor Ahai's sword is a pun - Dawn = Lightbringer

Show me a passage where Dawn is shown to be on fire. Not looked like, or theorized, or "it is knowned."  Dawn is a sword. Besides, AA is a myth. He never existed and will never be reborn. That is the folly of the red priests and Stannis. Prophecy always fails. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Furthermore, based on description of Lightbringer, in Jon's vision-dream, the sword he was wielding then, wasn't Longclaw.

So what? does jon possess armor made of ice? where is it stored? Who made it? Again, no.

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Add to that that Lightbringer should be a unique blade. But there are plenty of Valyrian steel blades (at least 10 of them), same as Longclaw. While the Dawn of Daynes, that was forged from meteorite ore, is a unique sword.

Myth and prophecy has been shown to be bullshit. The whole story is false. AA is meant to be a character archetype. Dany is AA reborn. she killed her true love to create her flaming weapons. Three of them. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that it was made from part of the same comet, that appeared above Planetos in 298/299, after Rhaego's birth. And it wasn't first time, that that comet was passing near their planet. Comets have a tendency to return.

Stars don't fall and then fly up again.  And a comet that is visible to the naked eye are so large they will kill say, all the dinosaurs on a planet. Again, no. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

There was no body. No remnants at all. None was shown to Dany, none was burned at Drogo's funeral pyre, or buried.

Where's his bones? The flesh disintegrated/rotted away, but what happened with his bones?

So Mirri's story is a load of bullshit.

The baby was taken by Khal Pono. And this was first of three treasons prophesied by the Undying, the one for blood. Dothraki were protecting the baby from his evil maegi mother, that doomed their khal. They couldn't let her have the Stallion that will mount the world. And thus they took the baby away. And Dany's three handmaids, and even Jorah, knew what really happened with the baby. But prior Dany woke up, they all agreed to lie to her, because they thought, that it will be for the best, if she won't know.

Someone would have seen the baby get taken away. There were too many people there to ignore it. This wasn't varys in a castle riddled wit h secret passages. This was a tent surrounded by people 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

See? Jorah was ashamed and reluctant to lie to her:

No, he had trouble admitting to the 14 year old girl/woman he was sworn to that her plan to save her husband happened to kill her unborn child. He was embarrassed that he let her into the tent and Rhaego is now dead because of it. Also, Drogo is a vegetable. So, not only is drogo effectively gone, her baby is too. Everybody loses. Except Mirri. She got vengeance. so she was burned allowing Dany to forge her flaming weapons 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

They decided beforehand, what they will tell Dany. But in the end Jorah was unable to say in her face, such outrageous lies. Thus Mirri had to say the rest of it.

So Rhaego is alive, and Dany will reunite with him not long after beginning of TWOW. And then she will burn alive Drogo's Ko, those that took her baby away. And this will be the second fire that she must light, from prophecies of the Undying, the one for death. Those people made her believe that her baby is dead, so she will pay them back. Drogon will Dracarys them.

 As fan fic goes, this is not bad, especially the vision tie ins. 
So, how will they get reunited? Who will bring a 2 year old on an ocean journey of 6 months after a journey of a similar time to a city where there are no children?  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Widow, that was a good call.   She's on the list, too.  Any other guesses you care to venture?   I can use all the help I can get!   

Not really. I tend to not think about swords too much, although I do think that the original Ice and Dawn could be one and the same. I think the two bloodlines intermingled at some point during the Age of Heroes. Otherwise, I think aside from the resurgence of Blackfyre which I'm excited to see. Otherwise, I have diddly to contribute. Next thread, maybe

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, divica said:

But someone as tall and strong as hodor wielding DS would look ridiculous...

Then I think it is more likely that BR hid the sword near castle black because he knew it was important and that it would be needed by the people in the watch. 

There is no logic reason to bring a valyrian sword (which may be able to kill others) to a cave where it is very unlikely any other human might use it again (BR thinks bran will never leave). Specially when BR belonged to the NW that would be the first enemies of the others. It is on the Wall that the sword would be needed the most!

In addition it is very likely that fAegon will get blackfyre because some old dude in the golden company or ilirio will know where it is. Don t forget that Bittersteal was thelast one seen with the sword and fAegon is fulfilling is dream. So it makes sense that someone gives him blackfyre.

Then we have alysane MORMONT going to castle black. It is very likely that jon will give her long claw and if jon needs a sword I could see someone sending him a dream of where DS is hidden... Although I doubt jon will be its final wielder I think it is probable that he will use it for a while.

Hi divica--good to see you.   I have to disagree with your assessment of Hodor's appearance with Dark Sister.  Allow me to explain.   Bran told Luwin that he could ride on Hodor's shoulders and together they could be a perfect knight.  Dark Sister is specifically designed for a smaller person to use, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be an effective tool in Hodor or Bran on Hodor's shoulders to use.  It's still a longsword.   Though I agree Hodor by himself is physically better suited to a big greatsword, Bran has to be figured into this; perhaps physically as well as mentally.  

DS could be at CB.  Who there could wield this fine sorcerer's sword?  Sable?  Val? Alysanne is a good guess for Longclaw and makes perfect sense.  I'm totally up for suggestions here.   I'm of a new mind that Dark Sister was being hidden and protected in that cave--waiting for the last greenseer who will enact The Last Hero's quest.  DS is as likely to be Lightbringer as any other magic sword.   I think all the swords will find their way North of the Wall.   Like you, I think many of the swords will be held by different people at different times.  My main objective is to determine the final 12 heroes and which swords they will wield.   

This little connection here between Dark Sister and sorcerers seems to have legs to some extent.   There may actually be some logic in this, but I fear we need a gamer to explain the different types of characters required for a quest of this undertaking.  I enjoyed your thoughts divica, thanks for joining in.   

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Not really. I tend to not think about swords too much, although I do think that the original Ice and Dawn could be one and the same. I think the two bloodlines intermingled at some point during the Age of Heroes. Otherwise, I think aside from the resurgence of Blackfyre which I'm excited to see. Otherwise, I have diddly to contribute. Next thread, maybe

Well I do appreciate your contributions here, Lady.   Feel free to stick around as I know you have much to offer here (we just have to spark your imagination!) and get the feeling you may enjoy the mystery with the magic swords!   

[Curled Finger]

@Megorova and @Dorian Martell's son

I'm staying out of your debate, but enjoying the Hell out of it.   Didn't want you to feel ignored.  

[Curled Finger]

49 minutes ago, divica said:

As things stand alysane will get the sword.

She is a mormont, she is a warrior and is going to the Wall. I don t think jon will resist giving her the sword. 

My biggest doubt about jon is if he will dream about where DS is hidden or if when rhaegar thought he was tPtwP he decided to find a magic sword that he left in the ToJ for jon when he decided that after all he was tPtwP. Then ned took the swoord to winterfell and hid it somewhere in the cripts. I mean, if rhaegar decided to learn how to fight because of the profecy then he must have searched for a magic sword. And we have no indication that the sword rhaegar used when he died was special.

I don't think Jon will be resisting anything, but I do see other candidates for taking Longclaw.  Back to your Hodor assumption...Longclaw is a bastard sword--nearly as big as a great sword--a big, awkward thing.  Dark Sister will be more compact and elegant--quicker for sure.  But Dark Sister is the non heir sword among the Targaryans.   Jon would have Blackfyre if everything worked out the way it actually should.   Blackfyre is the only other VS sword we know of that is a bastard sword.  I just see a lot of little hints in Longclaw being Jon's, that's all.   I doubt the story will permit anything to work out as it should.  

Far as I can tell, and I have studied this at length and will ask @Cridefea for her expertise as well...there were no magic swords available for Rhaegar to wield.  The other swords known to us were all long held ancestral swords from their original families except the swords held by the Ironborn, Nightfall and Red Rain. There do seem to be 3 VS swords Tywin tried to buy, but we don't know who the families were, though we have to guess the Mormonts were among them.   It could also have been disgraceful to wield a sword that was not specifically Targaryan.  That's just a guess.  In all if either Blackfyre or Dark Sister (perhaps even Truth) were available to Rhaegar I'm certain he would have carried one or the other.   We've been looking for the swords for years.   I'm convinced Brightroar and Lamentation are lost and destroyed respectively.   Ice has been reforged into 2 blades leaving us with 12 named VS swords said to be Westerosi.  That says they are in Westeros to me.   Why list them if they aren't?  At the end of the day you're absolutely right.   Rhaegar's sword was nothing special.   

[divica]

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hi divica--good to see you.   I have to disagree with your assessment of Hodor's appearance with Dark Sister.  Allow me to explain.   Bran told Luwin that he could ride on Hodor's shoulders and together they could be a perfect knight.  Dark Sister is specifically designed for a smaller person to use, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be an effective tool in Hodor or Bran on Hodor's shoulders to use.  It's still a longsword.   Though I agree Hodor by himself is physically better suited to a big greatsword, Bran has to be figured into this; perhaps physically as well as mentally.  

DS could be at CB.  Who there could wield this fine sorcerer's sword?  Sable?  Val? Alysanne is a good guess for Longclaw and makes perfect sense.  I'm totally up for suggestions here.   I'm of a new mind that Dark Sister was being hidden and protected in that cave--waiting for the last greenseer who will enact The Last Hero's quest.  DS is as likely to be Lightbringer as any other magic sword.   I think all the swords will find their way North of the Wall.   Like you, I think many of the swords will be held by different people at different times.  My main objective is to determine the final 12 heroes and which swords they will wield.   

This little connection here between Dark Sister and sorcerers seems to have legs to some extent.   There may actually be some logic in this, but I fear we need a gamer to explain the different types of characters required for a quest of this undertaking.  I enjoyed your thoughts divica, thanks for joining in.   

Well 2 things.

If you want to take into account that bran migh warg hodor to use the sword then there are several problems. First, bran was a kid when he became a criple. So he wasn t a good swordsman... Maybe he knew very little about how to use a sword... Then he hasn t practiced for years! And he would need to spend several hours in each day inside hodor to learn how to move his body as well as a swordsman...

It sounds awfull for hodor and very hard to acomplish when bran is learning to be a greenseer. He won t spend time inside hodor practicing with a sword... We don t even know if tcotf would aprove of him entering hodor. All in all it makes more sense for hodor/bran to use a cub to smash things than to go for finesse...

And meera is a spear user. It would fit her better a spear made by tcotf with an obsidian tip.

 

Then the last hero quest was to forge a new type of sword that could resist the WW cold. It makes sense that all valyrian swords are a version of lightbringer because a single useful sword can t do much... And I am not even sure if the sword ignites because of the user or the sowrd (for me is the user)...

However hiding DS for 70 years in order to save it for the new Last Hero makes very little sense (what you are sugesting)... What would the new last hero (aka the last greenseer) do with the sword? take it to a Smith and ask him to do more swords like that? I would prefer if you said the last greenseer will see into the past and guide a couple of characters in a quest to learn how to reforge valyrian/dragon steal. That would make sense!