US Politics : And the Finer Art of Grumbling

[OldGimletEye]

On 2/6/2018 at 4:11 AM, mormont said:

Has he? 

I know several smart people who dispute the 'multi' part of that very strongly, and there are others who dispute the 'billionaire' part. Trump himself has made a habit of exaggerating his personal net worth in public while obfuscating hard information about it. 

But hey. He could always release his tax returns and that would clear this up. Right?

Let’s just say for the sake of argument, that the Orange One is rich as he claims, which I doubt, and in the broader picture of things, I could really care less, as it’s his horrible policies and racism is what I care about.

@GAROVORKIN seems to believe that people like Bozo and the Orange One shouldn’t be questioned because they are rich or got rich or whatever and therefore for their business practices or policy ideas shouldn’t be questioned or refuted.

But ultimately they deserve no such deference. If somebody like Bernie Marcus wants to say that tax cuts are a sure way to fire up the economy he needs to throw up his models and his data like anyone else and not sit there and say “trust me, I’m rich your not. I know what is going on, but you don’t lowly peasants...”

And frankly, I’ve heard enough “masters of the universe” types blow it on policy. Jamie Dimon gets a lot of stuff wrong. He’s wrong about equity capital requirements and other matters. The CEO Business Clowntable was wrong about the “skills gap” a few years back. Carly Fiorina was wrong about fiscal deficits a few years back. And then of course I don’t give shit what Bozo’s opinions are about labor protection laws, whether his bank account has 2 bucks in it or 200 billion in it.

None of these people are entitled to any particular deference when it comes to economic policy.

And then of course, none of these people should be given any deference on matters that aren’t related to economic policy making, which should be even more blatantly obvious, then when they are pontificating about purely economic matters. Bozo isn’t entitled to any special deference when it comes to Amazon’s troubling labor practices. The Orange One doesn’t deserve any deference when he shows his racism or his other nonsense.

If Trump says something blindly stupid, that is completely detached from reality, which he does a lot, then the size of his bank account is simply irrelevant.

[Shryke]

5 hours ago, lokisnow said:

For someone who started out when the Dow was at 1000, with only several hundred million (which he didn’t earn himself), becoming a multi billionaire is a fairly small achievement, literally everyone in this thread could do it given the same starting circumstances— or easily out perform trump with minimal best practices of passive investing choices.

Any analysis I saw during the campaign in 2016 said that Trump would be richer if he'd just invested the wealth he'd been given starting out and just sat around the house masturbating for the last 50 years.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I doubt Trumps wealth claims and believe that hiding how bad of shape he's in financially, plays a large role in his refusing to disclose his tax returns. He is likely so in debt to Russian Oligarchs that he can never allow the extent of that indebtedness to become public. They own this degenerate puppet, its clear from his conduct, but the proof isnt out there yet. 

He's the 21st century Benedict Arnold in my view.

[Shryke]

7 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Boycott the Republican Party
If conservatives want to save the GOP from itself, they need to vote mindlessly and mechanically against its nominees.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

It's a good sentiment but they have the equation backwards. The problem is not the Republican party, it's the base of the Republican party. The party reflects them, as do their new pack of congresspeople and their president. It has to, the primary system enforces that. The Republican party for years now has been more terrified of getting attacked from the right by it's own base then anything else and that's why they are what they are. And because of that, there is little hope for this strategy.

[GAROVORKIN]

2 hours ago, Sword of Doom said:

And? He isn't good at what he does. He wouldn't be where he is financially if it wasn't for his father and for being a corrupt sack of shit who fucks people out of money he owes them. 

Attributing financial standing to knowledge is laughable and illogical. 

There are tons of rich people that are ignorant fools who talk out of there ass about everything. Trump is the epitome of this, as are his hell spawn kids, his shitty supporters and the shit that infests his administration.


He bankrupted casinos. CASINOS. Anyone who bankrupts a casino is a terrible businessman and not someone that should be looked at to do something positive for the economy. 
 

If chose to , he doesn't have to work the rest of his life if he doesn't want to. The rest of don't have that luxury.

[GAROVORKIN]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Has he? 

I know several smart people who dispute the 'multi' part of that very strongly, and there are others who dispute the 'billionaire' part. Trump himself has made a habit of exaggerating his personal net worth in public while obfuscating hard information about it. 

But hey. He could always release his tax returns and that would clear this up. Right?

You might want your look Forbes magazine  on this subject of his net worth. 

[GAROVORKIN]

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Do you just worship rich people or something?

I really don't give a damn how much money he's made. Goody for him. That doesn't excuse Amazon's, the company he runs, antics.

No  as a matter of fact , I don't worship rich people.  I get the impression that you don't think much of rich people.

 

 

[GAROVORKIN]

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Let’s just say for the sake of argument, that the Orange One is rich as he claims, which I doubt, and in the broader picture of things, I could really care less, as it’s his horrible policies and racism is what I care about.

@GAROVORKIN seems to believe that people like Bozo and the Orange One shouldn’t be questioned because they are rich or got rich or whatever and therefore for their business practices or policy ideas shouldn’t be questioned or refuted.

But ultimately they deserve no such deference. If somebody like Bernie Marcus wants to say that tax cuts are a sure way to fire up the economy he needs to throw up his models and his data like anyone else and not sit there and say “trust me, I’m rich your not. I know what is going on, but you don’t lowly peasants...”

And frankly, I’ve heard enough “masters of the universe” types blow it on policy. Jamie Dimon gets a lot of stuff wrong. He’s wrong about equity capital requirements and other matters. The CEO Business Clowntable was wrong about the “skills gap” a few years back. Carly Fiorina was wrong about fiscal deficits a few years back. And then of course I don’t give shit what Bozo’s opinions are about labor protection laws, whether his bank account has 2 bucks in it or 200 billion in it.

None of these people are entitled to any particular deference when it comes to economic policy.

And then of course, none of these people should be given any deference on matters that aren’t related to economic policy making, which should be even more blatantly obvious, then when they are pontificating about purely economic matters. Bozo isn’t entitled to any special deference when it comes to Amazon’s troubling labor practices. The Orange One doesn’t deserve any deference when he shows his racism or his other nonsense.

If Trump says something blindly stupid, that is completely detached from reality, which he does a lot, then the size of his bank account is simply irrelevant.

Bezos , Trump and the rest of them don't  give a damn what you or anyone thinks of them. 

[mormont]

5 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

You might want your look Forbes magazine  on this subject of his net worth. 

Why? Have Forbes magazine seen his tax returns?

[GAROVORKIN]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

Why? Have Forbes magazine seen his tax returns?

Net worth not Taxes 

[OldGimletEye]

22 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

I get the impression that you don't think much of rich people.

It's more like I don't give a shit what their opinions are simply by virtue of them being rich. Sometimes they may say something sensible. Other times they maybe just bleating out self serving nonsense. And of course, although this should be obvious, their wealth is no defense to acting like a jack ass.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Bezos , Trump and the rest of them don't  give a damn what you or anyone thinks of them. 

And that's fine, since I really don't give a damn about their opinions.

And then of course, you completely side stepped the thrust of my post.

[GAROVORKIN]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

And that's fine, since I really don't give a damn about their opinions.

Okay , that's fair. 

[mormont]

1 minute ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Net worth not Taxes 

So, basically, they are no more likely to know the truth than anyone else, is what you're saying. 

Now, I don't think Trump's wealth proves anything, however much it is. But like Trump, you clearly do. So it is incumbent on you to acknowledge that Trump habitually lies about his wealth, and that any time anyone makes any serious attempt to find out the truth he takes extraordinary measures to hide it - although unlike you, me and Forbes magazine, he knows the truth. That suggests that he, himself, feels that however much it is, his true wealth is not nearly enough to justify his arrogance and bluster. So maybe you should take your lead from that.

[denstorebog]

Anyone following the PA redistricting case? It has gone completely off the rails now, as Republicans are now floating the idea of impeaching the Democrat-led Supreme Court. That's right, they're discussing the notion of simply removing five Democrat judges over a decision they didn't like, and what makes this really interesting is that they have the votes in the Senate to legally do it. Down to the exact number, in fact, with the R-D split being 34-16, giving Republicans the two thirds required.

I swear, if the next thread title isn't "Fun With Constitutional Crises" ...

[Shryke]

19 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

Anyone following the PA redistricting case? It has gone completely off the rails now, as Republicans are now floating the idea of impeaching the Democrat-led Supreme Court. That's right, they're discussing the notion of simply removing five Democrat judges over a decision they didn't like, and what makes this really interesting is that they have the votes in the Senate to legally do it. Down to the exact number, in fact, with the R-D split being 34-16, giving Republicans the two thirds required.

I swear, if the next thread title isn't "Fun With Constitutional Crises" ...

I mean, sure. They did the same kind of thing in North Carolina after losing the governorship to a Democrat. When you lose according to the system, just try to change the rules and when you can't change the rules try to destroy the system.

American democracy is very steadily falling apart because the right-wing fundamental does not view the Democratic party as legitimate.

The right-wing in america, represented by the Republican party currently, believes in a herrenvolk democracy. And this strain of thought, this desire, has been a bedrock of american politics since it's founding.

[OldGimletEye]

23 hours ago, denstorebog said:

Anyone following the PA redistricting case? It has gone completely off the rails now, as Republicans are now floating the idea of impeaching the Democrat-led Supreme Court. That's right, they're discussing the notion of simply removing five Democrat judges over a decision they didn't like, and what makes this really interesting is that they have the votes in the Senate to legally do it. Down to the exact number, in fact, with the R-D split being 34-16, giving Republicans the two thirds required.

I swear, if the next thread title isn't "Fun With Constitutional Crises" ...

It just seems to me that you do not negotiate with the Republican Party. You don't compromise with it.

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I doubt Trumps wealth claims and believe that hiding how bad of shape he's in financially, plays a large role in his refusing to disclose his tax returns. He is likely so in debt to Russian Oligarchs that he can never allow the extent of that indebtedness to become public. They own this degenerate puppet, its clear from his conduct, but the proof isnt out there yet. 

He's the 21st century Benedict Arnold in my view.

Now that's hardly fair. Benedict Arnold was actually pretty good at what he did and was unfairly shit on, before ultimately deciding to switch sides. Donald Trump is shit at what he does and fairly shit on before ultimately pretending like he didn't actually switch sides.

[Larry of the Lawn]

13 hours ago, WinterFox said:

Snip

That is a pretty optimistic take, but I think all talk of a realignment is a pie in the sky unless it comes from an actual social change.  If people don't change the parties won't either.  What exactly would this new republican party look like?  Like what would their actual platform be, that could possibly appeal to the demographics you're listing?   They've literally been reaching out to and dog whistling for the racist, sexist, bigoted, blame-the-poor, ignorant voters of the populace.  All while cashing the checks from their corporate overlords.  Even if gerrymandering were somehow quickly fixed, how do you make the appeal to the groups you listed without pissing off your entire financial package?

Hearts and minds?  I guess Sanders did a pretty impressive job of rounding up $ from small donors bit he did so by being a counter to a party's mainstream culture.  How does an entire party, and the most firmly entrenched in the financial and military-industrial establishments, become the all-loving big tent you're talking about?  Genuinely curious.

Because unless the money is removed from the equation all I see is some surface changes, neither party has actually reached out to the poor of this country, both have ground the working class into the dirt, and there is no incentive to change.

   Citizens United is just one example of how even the judiciary has decided that your bank account is worth more politically than anything else.  Your voice and thoughts don't count as much as the rich dude at the other end of the county, and his vote doesn't count as much as the forty companies his vampire financial advisor has spread his portfolio around in.

All that has to change if you expect to see any kind of significant realignment.

Eta:. I guess what irks me about talk of 'realignment' is that to me it sounds like it's coming from an assumption that if only a these shitty factions were balanced out and steady evenly across two parties of equal integrity and corruption, that somehow a true democracy would blossom.  The problem isn't which team the shitty asshole players are on.  The problem isn't at they're shitheads are the owners and the coaches and the trainers and the entire front office.  It doesn't matter who you trade in the NFL or which coach goes where or of a team moves from southern CA to Vegas. The game and the league are fucked. And until that changes, you just have a the same rebranded product that hasn't changed and in fact keeps giving power to the shittiest of the shitty factions at the expense of anyone decent.  

[Ice Queen]

2 hours ago, denstorebog said:

Anyone following the PA redistricting case? It has gone completely off the rails now, as Republicans are now floating the idea of impeaching the Democrat-led Supreme Court. That's right, they're discussing the notion of simply removing five Democrat judges over a decision they didn't like, and what makes this really interesting is that they have the votes in the Senate to legally do it. Down to the exact number, in fact, with the R-D split being 34-16, giving Republicans the two thirds required.

I swear, if the next thread title isn't "Fun With Constitutional Crises" ...

This is unbelievable. And the people of Pennsylvania will let them get away with it. Trust me, it's just northern Alabama.