Jace, Extat Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, karaddin said: Ok that's probably fair. I'd question the competence of the Democratic party when it comes to winning elections (which is quite distinct from competence at governing once in power) as I think they are utterly terrible at winning the games of rhetoric and optics, and constantly cede ground to the GOP by accepting their language and framing of debates. I wouldn't argue they intend to lose however and that is an important distinction. The adoption of 'Obamacare' created Trump as surely as his racist father and disinterested mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 4 hours ago, James Arryn said: I’m tempted to agree with Hamerow’s conclusions on Church/Nazi relations. Even when interrupted by a series of specific objections to specific policies, actual political approval or disapproval is politically demonstrated by a continuation or discontinuation of support for the empowered party as a whole. Otherwise, to coin his phrase, it’s simply ‘holding your nose’ while continuing to actually enable w/e stinks. And I agree with him that this can be actually be viewed as more reprehensible that the true believers who don’t notice the smell. In this case what it adds up to is people deciding that others suffering empowered racism/sexism/bigotry is a price you are willing to have them pay so you get something you want. Edit: not you personally, obviously. Craven Paul Ryan to a T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 On NPR this afternoon they were to talking to Mo Brooks (R)Nutcase from Alabama, member of the Freedom Caucus and he was saying that no way would he vote yes on the budget deal because it would borrow and spend so much money the USA would quickly become bankrupt and be put into receivership. Then all hell would break loose! Yikes! He assured us that once this happened, we'd loose millions of jobs and our children would be stuck with the bill. So no yes vote from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAROVORKIN Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 Have the Democrats thought about making former US Attorney General Eric Holder their front runner for 2020 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 18 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Well, no. It's not factually inaccurate; what you asserted is an opinion, not actual truth. If you like, we can take 'strongly approve' only and then have something like 65% of all Republicans who love him, and about 30% of everyone in the country who does. Does that make my point less valid - that a very large majority of Republicans strongly approve of him? As to the low information voters - the idea was to convince the 'rational' ones to switch, right? How does that conflate in any way with the low information ones? This doesn't make any sense at all. Either most of them are low-information, in which case they are less likely to be swayed by facts or dialog and more likely to be swayed by emotional appeal and ingroup think, or they're not, in which case they're onboard the Trump train. The idea that Trump is a phenomenon of low-education is disingenuous, and I agree with Kalbear that supporting Trump is a conscious choice. For one thing, there's the arrogance of an assumption that "Republicans will agree with me if I only just talk to them! They'll see reason because I'm so persuasive!" For another, though, and this is the killer point: they genuinely agree with Trump. Not due to lack of education, but because they are genuinely racist, genuinely sexist and genuinely annoyed that their lives are changing. Nigella Lawson, who apart from being a living goddess and perfect, summed it up well: "To those used to privilege, equality can feel like they're losing." They don't want America to stop being majority white. They don't want expanded welfare helping people. They don't even care if it comes at the cost of their own hard-won rights. Swathes of voters who had healthcare for the first time because of something Obama did nonetheless voted against him! They didn't care that it meant better lives for them because it came at the cost of a black man in the White House. They rallied to Trump's racist claims that Obama was illegitimate in the hopes of it being true, so that the people they once owned as slaves wouldn't now boss them about. The South lost the Civil War. But it won the following cultural war. How many times have you heard somebody say that the war was about "State's rights"? It's utter garbage, and it's a mask for what they really meant: they didn't want to ditch their racism, and it's still culturally embedded in their thinking. Trump voters aren't ignorant. They know what they're doing. They know what he is doing. They have a different vision for America, and it's not a place worth living in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 The idea that Trump is a product of low-edication working-class whites has been repeatedly debunked, but the myth won't die. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/white-working-class-trump-cultural-anxiety/525771/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 18 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said: On NPR this afternoon they were to talking to Mo Brooks (R)Nutcase from Alabama, member of the Freedom Caucus and he was saying that no way would he vote yes on the budget deal because it would borrow and spend so much money the USA would quickly become bankrupt and be put into receivership. Then all hell would break loose! Yikes! He assured us that once this happened, we'd loose millions of jobs and our children would be stuck with the bill. So no yes vote from him. He's on CNN right now saying that if the budget is passed the US will end up like Venezuela, where citizens lost an average of 19 pounds last year because they didn't have enough money to buy food. Or the US could end up like Greece, which had to be bailed out 3 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: He's on CNN right now saying that if the budget is passed the US will end up like Venezuela, where citizens lost an average of 19 pounds last year because they didn't have enough money to buy food. Or the US could end up like Greece, which had to be bailed out 3 times. I had no idea the situation was so dire until his rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 23 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Well, no. It's not factually inaccurate; what you asserted is an opinion, not actual truth. It's a fact that 1 in 4 Trump supporter express some ambivalence in support. It's also a fact that there were a significant number of Obama-Trump and/or "reluctant" Trump voters. It's my interpretation that a significant portion of these "somewhat" approving respondents represent low information voters that prioritize the economy rather than Trump's views on immigration or BLM. This interpretation is founded on the fact 70% of respondents described the economy as good or excellent (item 14 in the Quinnipiac poll). This is an increase of 12% from November 22, indicating Trump's increased support is being driven by increased confidence in the state of the economy. 31 minutes ago, Kalbear said: If you like, we can take 'strongly approve' only and then have something like 65% of all Republicans who love him, and about 30% of everyone in the country who does. Does that make my point less valid - that a very large majority of Republicans strongly approve of him? Well, no, but it would make your original point that... 6 hours ago, Kalbear said: They rationalize the parts they don't think are quite right, they think that BLM is a terrorist group, they think that we need to kick out the undocumented immigrants, they think we are plagued by MS-13. This isn't a small minority; this is pretty much every one of them. They might be living on another planet, but they're remarkably consistent in their beliefs on planet Fox. And there's no real evidence that most of them don't believe in what Trump does and what he represents. Again, 82% of Republicans approve of him. ...is indeed invalid. Further, the above is real evidence that a significant portion of them don't really believe in what Trump represents on immigration or BLM. Further more, the widespread approval of DACA is very clear evidence that not all Republicans are in lock-step with Trump on immigration. 40 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Either most of them are low-information, in which case they are less likely to be swayed by facts or dialog and more likely to be swayed by emotional appeal and ingroup think, or they're not, in which case they're onboard the Trump train. Low-information voters tend to be much more independent; it's high information voters that are strong partisans. We could debate what is "rational" all day, but they certainly are less likely to be swayed by in-groupthink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Tywin, I’m really not sure. All I can figure is that it a form of chosen delusion. They see Trump as their guy and nothing is going to change their minds. It is incredibly sad to see people abandoning the fundamental tenants of their faith to support a horrible human being like Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 22 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: He's on CNN right now saying that if the budget is passed the US will end up like Venezuela, where citizens lost an average of 19 pounds last year because they didn't have enough money to buy food. Or the US could end up like Greece, which had to be bailed out 3 times. 18 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said: I had no idea the situation was so dire until his rant. Mo Brooks is what I would call a 'low information' voter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Nasty LongRider said: Mo Brooks is what I would call a 'low information' voter. HA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAROVORKIN Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said: Being rational is not the same as being educated or intelligent. Even a genius can be susceptible to self-rationalization and outright delusion if they just keep hearing what they want to hear. You ever read those parts of Notes on Virginia where Thomas Jefferson starts going off on how slavery was really in the best interest of the African people. It's called Selective Sound Bites Syndrome and it's both contagious and insidious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 26 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Tywin, I’m really not sure. All I can figure is that it a form of chosen delusion. They see Trump as their guy and nothing is going to change their minds. It is incredibly sad to see people abandoning the fundamental tenants of their faith to support a horrible human being like Trump. It seems clear now that the fundamental tenets of Evangelical faith are white supremacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said: Mo Brooks is what I would call a 'low information' voter. Brooks also came in third in that contested Republican primary in Alabama where Trump endorsed the establishment Republican but the Republican voters of Alabama were like, "Nah, we gotta have the twice-removed Teahadi racist-ass judge who plays at being a cowboy!" I wonder if that primary would have gone differently if Moore's molesting and mall-trolling had come out before then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivin Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 28 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Tywin, I’m really not sure. All I can figure is that it a form of chosen delusion. They see Trump as their guy and nothing is going to change their minds. It is incredibly sad to see people abandoning the fundamental tenants of their faith to support a horrible human being like Trump. Hmm, the dubiously sourced tales of a magical man in the sky are championed by a group of morally bankrupt liars whose pillars of 'faith' are as nonexistent as the values they purportedly promote? Color me speechless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said: I'm going to bring in @dmc515 for what I'm about to say next because I'm not 100% sure that I'm right and he can speak with greater authority on this issue than I. One of the problems, IMO, is that we still haven't realized that while there hasn't been a full blown realignment, there seems to have been a mini realignment within the Republican Caucus and it's effects may be permanent. Let's start with the DW-NOMINATE trends. Since the 110th Congress, the median score for GOP members has increased from .42 to .49. In comparison, the median score for Dems has increased from -.35 to -.38. In other words, the Republican caucus has become more than twice more "conservative" than the Democratic caucus has become more "liberal." The reason I used the 110th Congress is because this represents 2007-2008, or the last real chance for immigration reform - when Bush and McCain were behind the effort. It was defeated mostly by conservative members. Since then, we've had the rise of the Tea Party, then the Alt-Right, and the polarization of immigration attitudes, even before Trump: Quote Between 1994 and 2005, Republicans’ and Democrats’ views of immigrants tracked one another closely. Beginning around 2006, however, they began to diverge. In October that year, the partisan gap between Republicans and Democrats grew to 15 percentage points. Since then, the share of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents saying that immigrants strengthen the country steadily increased, from 49% then to 78% now, while the share with this view among Republicans and Republican leaners has shown little change (34% then, 35% today). Trump capitalized on this, and it's what drove him to victory in the primaries, as he gained the bulk of his support from primary voters that identified immigration as their most salient issue. Since, he's obviously exacerbated the trend. So yes, there has been a "mini-realignment" of sorts within the Republican Caucus, and it's driven by the "alt-right" or populist pillar you mentioned - which also has considerable overlap with the Religious Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 58 minutes ago, Inigima said: The idea that Trump is a product of low-edication working-class whites has been repeatedly debunked, but the myth won't die. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/white-working-class-trump-cultural-anxiety/525771/ To clarify: Low information, while correlated with low education and "working class", is not the same thing. It is clearly operationalized variable within political behavior that captures a respondent's political knowledge. You can be the richest man in the world (or even the most educated) and still be a low information voter. Trump is a low information voter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Shocking footage of Trump you won't believe! It's all undone! His lies are all exposed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 40 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said: It seems clear now that the fundamental tenets of Evangelical faith are white supremacy. Sadly, that may be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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