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How would Daenerys react, when Rhaego is alive


Euron Lannister

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14 minutes ago, Josette DuPres said:

Nothing would happen to Daenerys.

i doubt, something like this changes a human

15 minutes ago, Josette DuPres said:

Rhaego is a Dothraki and he will respect her strength.

he would be two years old...

15 minutes ago, Josette DuPres said:

Daenerys rules.

No, Rhaego would inherit before her, targaryen succession favors males more than normel andal succession

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1 minute ago, Euron Lannister said:

i doubt, something like this changes a human

he would be two years old...

No, Rhaego would inherit before her, targaryen succession favors males more than normel andal succession

If he's two years old then he won't do much except say koochie-koochie-kooo.  Not threatening at all.  Customs do not apply to Daenerys Stormborn.  She breaks custom.  Being a dragon rider, the Mother of Dragons negates any laws or customs that stand in her way. 

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28 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Another note: apart from Dany's dream we have no reason to assume Rhaego would have Valyrian features at all. Drogo had no Valyrian lineage we are aware of, and most other examples of Valyrians coupling with dark-featured persons without light-featured ancestry result in dark-featured children. He'd likely have dark hair and eyes that are nearly black because of both the brown and purple pigments.

Though it is possible that some of Drogo's recent ancestors were Valyrians. For example his mother, or grandmother. That could be the reason why Drogo agreed to marry with Dany. Could be that he had nostalgic feelings towards Valyrian women, because he was raised by one. It seems to me that Drogo married with Dany, not because she was princess of some distant unknown kingdom, that meant nothing to him. So there should be some other reason. Why not nostalgy?

18 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

As for the others, none of the Dothraki were willing to approach the tent once the maegi began her ritual.

Though between that ritual, and Dany waking up, passed a few days. And in span of those days, Jorah probably didn't came in her tent, but her three handmaids did.

I think that their behavior was suspicious. Seems to me that Khal Pono took the baby away, when he left Drogo's camp, on next day after blood magic ritual, and Rhaego's birth. And that all three of Dany's handmaids knew that.

Try to read scene of Dany's last awaking, while keeping in mind, that Rhaego was taken by Khal Pono. And that Irri, Jhiqui and Doreah gave the baby away to him. And the reason why they allowed the baby to be taken, is because, same as all other Dothraki, they blamed Dany, for what happened with their Khal. And thus they thought, that it's necessary to separate the baby from Dany (evil maegi that doomed their Khal), to protect him from her negative influence. And that Rhaego's kidnapping was first out of three treasons, prophecyed by the Undying, the one for blood. They were protecting son of their Khal, who is blood of their blood. So they betrayed Dany for the sake of their blood's (Rhaego's) wellbeing.

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“Khal Drogo,” she forced herself to say, watching their faces with dread. “Is he—?”

“The khal lives,” Irri answered quietly…yet Dany saw a darkness in her eyes when she said the words, and no sooner had she spoken than she rushed away to fetch water.

There was darkness in Irri's eyes, when she said that the khal lives - because she blamed Dany for what happened with him. And after she said that, she immediately left. But not because she was eager to serve to Dany, or take care of her, but because she didn't wanted to talk with her at that moment. She didn't forgave her yet.

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She turned to Doreah. “Tell me.”

“I…I shall bring Ser Jorah,” the Lysene girl said, bowing her head and fleeing the tent.

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. “What is it? I must know. Drogo…and my child.’.’ Why had she not remembered the child until now? “My son…Rhaego…where is he? I want him.”

Her handmaid lowered her eyes. “The boy…he did not live, Khaleesi.” Her voice was a frightened whisper.

Here Jhiqui also tried to get away from Dany. But not because she was afraid to tell Dany about Drogo's condition, she was afraid of Dany (the evil witch, that cursed their khal). And she lowered her eyes, and her voice was frightened, because she lied to Dany, when she said that her son is dead. She was afraid, what if Dany remembers what actually was happening, when she was giving birth to Rhaego, and afterwards. What if she knows that Dothraki took the baby? That's the meaning of her behavior.

And could be that Jorah also knows that the baby was taken away. And he let this happen, because he didn't needed that baby. He needed only Dany. So he let Khal Pono to take Rhaego.

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“Tell me how my child died.”

“He never lived, my princess. The women say…” He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.

“Tell me. Tell me what the women say.”

He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. “They say the child was…”

She waited, but Ser Jorah could not say it. His face grew dark with shame. He looked half a corpse himself.

“Monstrous,” Mirri Maz Duur finished for him.

He couldn't lie to Dany, while facing her. Even though he and others agreed beforehand, what story they will tell Dany, when she will wake up. Doesn't it looks like Mirri was helping Jorah to lie? And he was ashamed for lying to Dany, and for letting her baby to be stolen away. One of the reason for it was, that for him that baby meant nothing. So he didn't cared whether it will be taken away. And the other reason, is that even if he wanted to prevent Khal Pono from taking Rhaego, he was unable to do it. Because he was wounded. So Khal Pono said to him something like this - I'm leaving this cursed place. And taking with me son of our Khal. Though you can have the witch (Dany). I won't kill her, out of respect to my Khal. But try to get in my way, and I will kill you.

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Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. “The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah,” she told him. The knight made no reply.

He knew that the baby wasn't taken by the darkness. He knew that it was taken by Dothraki. So when Dany was saying some stupid bullshit, that the shadows touched him too, he made no comment. He just kept quiet, and let her made her superstitious assumptions about what happened.  

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“Drogo’s khalasar is gone,” she said.

“A khal who cannot ride is no khal,” said Jhogo.

“The Dothraki follow only the strong,” Ser Jorah said. “I am sorry, my princess. There was no way to hold them. Ko Pono left first, naming himself Khal Pono, and many followed him.

Could be that Jorah is repeating Khal Pono's parting words - A khal who cannot ride is no khal. The Dothraki follow only the strong.

And Jorah kept out the part where Pono said, that now that he has with him, the Stallion that will mount the world, they will follow him (Pono). And he was right, because at least 10 thousands of Drogo's Dothraki went with him. And later to his khalasar joined 10 more thousands. Maybe because they also wanted to serve to the Stallion/Rhaego, and be part of his khalasar.

On 05.02.2018 at 11:43 PM, Faera said:

I don't think Dany would believe it was him, even if it was him.

She can do DNA test.

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Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her…as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.”

Dragon Rhaegel will recognize his brother Rhaego. They have met, when both of them were yet unborn. Their bond was formed then. So Rhaego will be Rhaegel's dragonrider.

Even that dragon's coloring is sort of symbolic: green as grass of Dothraki Sea, in which Dothraki Rhaego was born; bronze - Rhaego's copper skin.

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22 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though it is possible that some of Drogo's recent ancestors were Valyrians. For example his mother, or grandmother.

Well sure, we can't rule it out. But we have no reason to believe that's the case, and it's the sort of thing one would expect to come up at some point during the first novel.

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:19 PM, Damon_Tor said:

Jorah was probably unconscious, which is why he never saw the "body" of Rhaego (he can only describe "what the women say" about it). The wound he took was grievous. It's a wonder he survived. (It's actually somewhat puzzling how he was functional three days later: a cut to the bone in the thigh is not something you recover from in a few days. Maybe his wound is what prevented MMD's magic from fully restoring Drogo, splitting the healing magics between two persons? Pure speculation, and not relevant to the issue of Rhaego.)

As for the others, none of the Dothraki were willing to approach the tent once the maegi began her ritual. All of her assistance from that point forward would have come from other Lhazareens, any of whom could have been a part of the plot.  MMD's medicine chest provides the perfect means to smuggle the infant out of the tent, and eventually into Lhazar proper, relying on the chaos surrounding the succession crisis to escape the camp.

Still, if he had been born and normal-looking, it would have been virtually impossible to smuggle him away without any of them knowing. Babies cry. Babies born when there is fire and wailing and demons flying about cry a lot.

Jorah may have been unconscious, but he never claims to have been. It's possible though, but as you say, his recovery was remarkable, so his injuries might not have been all that bad for a tough fighter like him.

I'm pretty sure that there are no other Lhazareen about. All the ones they kept from the raid would have been marched off by Jhaqo and Pono after Drogo died. At the pyre, there are only about 100 Dothraki present. And why would the Lhazareen want to kidnap the Stallion Who Mounts the World and raise him to manhood?

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On 2/6/2018 at 5:35 PM, Megorova said:

Though it is possible that some of Drogo's recent ancestors were Valyrians. For example his mother, or grandmother. That could be the reason why Drogo agreed to marry with Dany. Could be that he had nostalgic feelings towards Valyrian women, because he was raised by one. It seems to me that Drogo married with Dany, not because she was princess of some distant unknown kingdom, that meant nothing to him. So there should be some other reason. Why not nostalgy?

Maybe because she was a very pretty 13 year old girl. Drogo must have been into that. Drogo had to get a look at her before proceeding with the wedding, if he wasn't pleased by her appearance he could have not gone through with it.

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14 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:
On 07.02.2018 at 2:35 AM, Megorova said:

Though it is possible that some of Drogo's recent ancestors were Valyrians. For example his mother, or grandmother.

Well sure, we can't rule it out. But we have no reason to believe that's the case, and it's the sort of thing one would expect to come up at some point during the first novel.

Could be that it did sort of came up, during the first novel.

AGOT, Dany I:

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Inside the manse, the air was heavy with the scent of spices, pinchfire and sweet lemon and cinnamon. They were escorted across the entry hall, where a mosaic of colored glass depicted the Doom of Valyria.

This was in Drogo's mansion in Pentos.

Why mosaic of this event, and not some scene from Dothraki life? Why not the picture of the Great Stallion? Why not the picture of Vaes Dothrak? Or something characteristical for Pentos, in which this mansion was located? Just because Pentos was one of cities of Valyrian Freehold, or maybe because there was another reason for its presense there?

Also if Rhaego really was taken by Dothraki, then when Dany will meet them, we can get more information about Drogo's ancestry.

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12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Still, if he had been born and normal-looking, it would have been virtually impossible to smuggle him away without any of them knowing. Babies cry. Babies born when there is fire and wailing and demons flying about cry a lot.

Most newborn babies don't cry that much. They generally cry once when they're born (usually not loudly, it's often a soft "mewing" sound. The loud "wail" we have in our heads is from movies/TV, where they use older infants as stand-ins for an actual newborns and don't actually film people giving birth. Watch some real birth videos on youtube: wailing is the exception, not the rule) and then as long as you swaddle them and keep them warm they'll sleep for a few hours. Dad of two here, that exactly how it went for both of mine.

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Jorah may have been unconscious, but he never claims to have been. It's possible though, but as you say, his recovery was remarkable, so his injuries might not have been all that bad for a tough fighter like him.

The arakh stopped in his bone. We don't know for sure why Jorah cannot attest to Rhaego's appearance himself, only that it seems to shame him. Either he fled the tent and left Daenerys there with the maegi, or he remained in the tent but passed out from bloodloss (or he is lying, as some others have suggested, and had a knowing hand in Rhaego's abduction, and uses the "the women say" phrasing to "lie without lying" and people who aren't comfortable with dishonesty sometime do).

But in any of these cases, he isn't a reliable witness to the birth.

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I'm pretty sure that there are no other Lhazareen about. All the ones they kept from the raid would have been marched off by Jhaqo and Pono after Drogo died.

We don't know enough about the timing of the succession crisis: when the new Khals decided to leave or how it happened. Our POV wakes up three days later. But it's reasonable to assume that night was chaotic. It's hard to say exactly where Rhaego ended up: with one of the new Khals, and unknowingly sold in slaver's bay? Or did the Lhazarines manage to get him across the river into Lhazar proper?

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And why would the Lhazareen want to kidnap the Stallion Who Mounts the World and raise him to manhood?

MMD was not just a Lhazareen, she was well traveled, well educated, and ran in the same circles as Marywn (when AGoT came out we had no reason to read any more into that namedrop: we know better now, don't we?) and as such would have a broader understanding of prophecy than whatever the Lhazareen superstitions say about the Dothraki Stallion. If Rhaego is important for whatever apocalypse is coming, it makes sense that she would be willing to play a part in saving him to he can fulfill that destiny, even if a less educated Lhazareen might only think of him as a messiah for a people they despise.

But yes, she would have to convince at least a few other Lhazareens to see things her way. She is in a position of trust and leadership with her people; I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption.

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50 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Why mosaic of this event, and not some scene from Dothraki life? Why not the picture of the Great Stallion? Why not the picture of Vaes Dothrak? Or something characteristical for Pentos, in which this mansion was located? Just because Pentos was one of cities of Valyrian Freehold, or maybe because there was another reason for its presense there?

Also if Rhaego really was taken by Dothraki, then when Dany will meet them, we can get more information about Drogo's ancestry.

I didn't get the impression Drogo spent much time there or had anything to say about its construction. But sure. Maybe.

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2 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

We don't know for sure why Jorah cannot attest to Rhaego's appearance himself,

Either he fled the tent and left Daenerys there with the maegi, or he remained in the tent but passed out from bloodloss

It's a book about medieval time setting. And it was planed by GRRM in early 90s. And he has no children. So as a person that has no children, he probably has zero interest in all that stuff related to them. So he may not even be aware that in modern times, it's not a rarity for husbands/boyfriends to be present in the same room, where their significant other is giving birth to their child. But even if he does know about it (modern tendencies), it's unlikely that he was using something like that in his earliest book from ASOIAF series.

In all stories set in medieval times, in books and movies, when some woman is going into labor, the future daddy is kept away from the room, where the birth is happening. In all movies and books, all men, aside from doctor, are usually nervously walking in circles outside the door, and wait for hours, until everything will be over. 

So no men were allowed inside Drogo's tent, while Dany was there, giving there birth to her baby. Most likely Jorah walked in, handed Dany over under care of Mirri, and went outside. And Jorah is not that baby's daddy, so there was no need for him to wait outside of Dany's tent, until she will give birth. Thus he left her, and went to treat his wounds. He was staying away from her tent, until he got news that she has woken up, and is asking him to come. Thus he himself haven't seen the baby, or even Dany, after he left her there.

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Could be that it did sort of came up, during the first novel.

AGOT, Dany I:

This was in Drogo's mansion in Pentos.

Why mosaic of this event, and not some scene from Dothraki life? Why not the picture of the Great Stallion? Why not the picture of Vaes Dothrak? Or something characteristical for Pentos, in which this mansion was located? Just because Pentos was one of cities of Valyrian Freehold, or maybe because there was another reason for its presense there?

Was that actually his mansion, or just a mansion he was staying at? Genuinely asking cause I don't remember.

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1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

Was that actually his mansion, or just a mansion he was staying at? Genuinely asking cause I don't remember.

It was his mansion, a present from magisters. Though it isn't mentioned for how long he owned it. So it isn't clear whether that mosaic was already there, or whether Drogo ordered it to be made, after the house became his. Both options are possible.

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The nine-towered manse of Khal Drogo sat beside the waters of the bay, its high brick walls overgrown with pale ivy. It had been given to the khal by the magisters of Pentos, Illyrio told them. The Free Cities were always generous with the horselords. “It is not that we fear these barbarians,” Illyrio would explain with a smile. “The Lord of Light would hold our city walls against a million Dothraki, or so the red priests promise…yet why take chances, when their friendship comes so cheap?”

In Dany's vision Rhaego had silver-gold hair and violet eyes. Though his coloring doesn't refute authenticity of that vision. Even though his father had dark hair, and dark eyes, and typical for Dothraki looks, it doesn't mean that his child can't have light-colored hair and violet eyes.

For example in Martells family, the closest to little Aegon, his Targaryen ancestor was Daenerys Targaryen, wife of Maron Martell. She was younger sister of Daeron II Targaryen, and her sister-in-law was Mariah Martell. Thus Daenerys to Elia's son was either great great great grandmother, or his great great great great grandmother. Though still Aegon had light-colored hair and indigo-colored eyes. Because even after 4 (or 5) generations after Daenerys Targaryen, her descendant Elia was still a carrier of light-color genes for hair and blue-color genes for eyes. She was carrier of Bb Blue/Brown genetic alleles.

Light color alleles for hair (b) were dominated by dark color alleles (B), and thus even though she was carrier of both types, her hair was dark. Same thing with eyes - Brown is dominant over Blue, thus her eyes were Brown. But either of her children could have inherited from her either B or b allele for hair coloring, and either Blue or Brown alleles for eye coloring. And that's exactly what happened. Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had dark hair and dark eyes, while little Aegon had typical Valyrian looks with light hair and blue/indigo eyes.

And Valyrian looking people are not a rarity in Essos. Drogo, and before him his ancestors, frequently visited Free Cities of Valyrian Freehold, or Cities of Slavers Bay. So either of his ancestors could have took as his concubine/mistress/wife a Valyrian girl, with light hair and blue eyes. Thus could be that same as Elia Martell, Drogo was a carrier of both types - Dothraki coloring and Valyrian coloring. But because dark colors are dominant over light, he had dark hair and dark eyes. But in combination with Dany's genetic model (bb Blue/Blue) their child can have silver-gold hair and violet eyes like his mother. And because there are much more genes, that define genetic characteristics, he can simultaneously have dark skin of Dothraki, typical for them almond-shaped eyes. But those eyes will be violet, like his mothers, and his hair will be light.

Thus if some readers thought, that Dany's vision was just a dream, and not a vision of an actual future that will happen someday, just because Rhaego had exotic looks, then they were wrong.

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5 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Most newborn babies don't cry that much. They generally cry once when they're born (usually not loudly, it's often a soft "mewing" sound. The loud "wail" we have in our heads is from movies/TV, where they use older infants as stand-ins for an actual newborns and don't actually film people giving birth. Watch some real birth videos on youtube: wailing is the exception, not the rule) and then as long as you swaddle them and keep them warm they'll sleep for a few hours. Dad of two here, that exactly how it went for both of mine.

Lol, consider yourself fortunate. I have two children too and they both bawled their eyes out when they were born (no "soft mewling" for them). If you think giving birth is rough on the mother, think about what it's like for the baby. Little babies also often start out with jaundice, colic, reflux and all kinds of other stuff. And now we have to imagine Rhaego coming into a world where demon shadows are dancing and twirling, high-pitched ululating is assaulting his ears...

6 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

The arakh stopped in his bone. We don't know for sure why Jorah cannot attest to Rhaego's appearance himself, only that it seems to shame him. Either he fled the tent and left Daenerys there with the maegi, or he remained in the tent but passed out from bloodloss (or he is lying, as some others have suggested, and had a knowing hand in Rhaego's abduction, and uses the "the women say" phrasing to "lie without lying" and people who aren't comfortable with dishonesty sometime do).

But in any of these cases, he isn't a reliable witness to the birth.

He was the only one to go into the tent with Dany, AIR, and he was strong enough to carry her in. And I don't think we can say that his unwillingness to tell Dany the truth is a sign that he doesn't know or that he is lying without lying. It's a difficult truth to tell someone in Dany's current state. She barely survived herself, so this could very well be him just trying not to shock her into relapse.

6 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

We don't know enough about the timing of the succession crisis: when the new Khals decided to leave or how it happened. Our POV wakes up three days later. But it's reasonable to assume that night was chaotic. It's hard to say exactly where Rhaego ended up: with one of the new Khals, and unknowingly sold in slaver's bay? Or did the Lhazarines manage to get him across the river into Lhazar proper?

The khalasar is starting to break up before Dany goes into the tent:

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GoT, Dany VIII

When at last Danaerys found the strength to raise her head, she saw the cord dispersing, the Dothraki stealing silently back to their tents and sleeping mats. Some were saddling horses and riding off. The sun had set.

There is screaming, wailing, demon-shadow chaos in the tent where the old khal is, and not even the birthing women will come near because Dany is accursed. Nobody is likely to stick around where evil blood magic is running wild.

All Lhazareen in the area are prisoners, bound with horse tendrils or hempen rope and ready to be marched off to the slave markets. All babies would have been killed in the raid. So there is no plausible way for any Lhazareen to flee with a newborn baby, and there is no way they could care for it and feed it on the long march to Slaver's Bay.

6 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

MMD was not just a Lhazareen, she was well traveled, well educated, and ran in the same circles as Marywn (when AGoT came out we had no reason to read any more into that namedrop: we know better now, don't we?) and as such would have a broader understanding of prophecy than whatever the Lhazareen superstitions say about the Dothraki Stallion. If Rhaego is important for whatever apocalypse is coming, it makes sense that she would be willing to play a part in saving him to he can fulfill that destiny, even if a less educated Lhazareen might only think of him as a messiah for a people they despise.

But yes, she would have to convince at least a few other Lhazareens to see things her way. She is in a position of trust and leadership with her people; I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption.

Sorry, but no. If that was her plan, then she would have made some excuse about Khal Drogo (the spell failed, gods did not favor his return, something) but she would then have been able to say to Dany, but here is your son, the Stallion Who Mounts the World. Let me help you raise him to be the might conqueror of prophecy.

The reality is exactly what she says to Danyr:

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Got, Dany IX

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

snip, the part where she describes all the horrors of watching her community destroyed.

"Tell me again what you saved"

"Your life."

Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone."

This woman is not going to save Rhaego and raise him to commit the same atrocities to other innocent people, and the Lhazareen who also endured similar horrors at the hands to the Dothraki aren't going to either.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

It's a book about medieval time setting. And it was planed by GRRM in early 90s. And he has no children. So as a person that has no children, he probably has zero interest in all that stuff related to them. So he may not even be aware that in modern times, it's not a rarity for husbands/boyfriends to be present in the same room, where their significant other is giving birth to their child. But even if he does know about it (modern tendencies), it's unlikely that he was using something like that in his earliest book from ASOIAF series.

In all stories set in medieval times, in books and movies, when some woman is going into labor, the future daddy is kept away from the room, where the birth is happening. In all movies and books, all men, aside from doctor, are usually nervously walking in circles outside the door, and wait for hours, until everything will be over. 

So no men were allowed inside Drogo's tent, while Dany was there, giving there birth to her baby. Most likely Jorah walked in, handed Dany over under care of Mirri, and went outside. And Jorah is not that baby's daddy, so there was no need for him to wait outside of Dany's tent, until she will give birth. Thus he left her, and went to treat his wounds. He was staying away from her tent, until he got news that she has woken up, and is asking him to come. Thus he himself haven't seen the baby, or even Dany, after he left her there.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on pretty much all of this.

First off, by the mid-90s when GoT came out it was common practice and common knowledge that fathers were in the delivery room with their wives. This movement actually began in the 1970s and was widely discussed in the media as a significant cultural step forward. To think that, 20 years later, an educated person like George Martin (who has both bachelor's and master's degrees in journalism) would not be aware or interested in this just because he has no children himself is inconceivable.

Secondly, in the very next book, he has Jaime Lannister in the delivery room with Cersei as Joffrey is being born, which means he was probably there for Myrcella and Tommen as well. So why he would be opposed to inserting such a thing in the first book, just because this is how it is in all the books and movies, but not in the second is rather puzzling.

And plot-wise, we have to remember that Jorah is already in love with Danaerys at this point. So the idea that he would bring the object of his affection, and the next king of Westeros who will someday give him back his lands and titles, into the tent where this strange, mad woman is wailing away and shadow demons are swirling about and then just dump her there and walk off is absurd.

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