Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

[King Jon Targaryen I]

I always found it strange that people assume Rhaegar was this jerk that didn't care about Elia Martell and left with Lyanna Stark with no consequence is to me a little ridiculous. Elia i think knew what was going on. This idea that Elia was this innocent bystander is ridiculous to me and I think there is more to the story. Its set that Aegon was the one Rhaegar thought was TPTWP, but he likely wanted another child and this is where Jon fit into the picture. Rhaegar assumed it was going to be a girl or boy it really doesn't matter, but realistically Jon was the spare, I think he promised Elia that her children with her were first in line. Elia and Rhaegar weren't in love, but Lyanna and Rhaegar were. In his mind it was set that the child of Lyanna was going to be the spare Prince or Princess. This idea that he just said " bye Elia " is ridiculous.

Has anyone ever asked on the forum if Elia likely gave Rhaegar the idea of removing his father Aerys II from the throne? I mean they were on Dragonstone for like 3 years? So what they never talked? I call BS. If Lyanna was chosen by Rhaegar and he was in love with her, you don't think he went to tell Elia or Elia didn't know before hand that Rhaegar was looking at Lyanna Stark especially after he choose her? Maybe that she and Rhaegar planned this cause I don't know they were on Dragonstone for like 3 years. 

Elia death and her tragic end. I'll say this, IT WAS NOT THE PLAN. Prince Rheagar was planning a coup against his father its rather interesting that Elia and her children was kept hostage in the Red Keep in order to keep the support of the Dornish? Seriously? No one thinks Rhaegar was pissed about this, Elia is his wife and yes more like a friend than a lover but he likely made a promise to her cause its clear Aegon was the one. It wouldn't surprise me if Rhaegar said " I have to go back, must tell Elia to go to Dragonstone and stay there" what if he did? You know the one stupid thing rhaegar did here? Was underestimating his father Aerys II unpredictability.Why did he return to Kings Landing after being at the Tower of Joy for a year? That motivation is rather strange? There is something not clear here and I think it makes sense he did it because his father learned of the coup during Robert Rebellion and he had his first wife ( Rhaegar i believe likely used polygamy here) Elia in Kings Landing when he likely hoped she was safe on Dragonstone. Rhaegar very likely assumed Elia , Rhaenys and Aegon were on Dragonstone. 

So this idea that Elia Martell was the innocent in this is rather ridiculous, I think its more complicated than that, I think Rhaegar loved Lyanna yes but no way in hell he wanted to abandon Elia and I think its one of the reason why he went back and fought and ended up dying on the Trident.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

39 minutes ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

I always found it strange that people assume Rhaegar was this jerk that didn't care about Elia Martell and left with Lyanna Stark with no consequence is to me a little ridiculous. Elia i think knew what was going on. This idea that Elia was this innocent bystander is ridiculous to me and I think there is more to the story. Its set that Aegon was the one Rhaegar thought was TPTWP, but he likely wanted another child and this is where Jon fit into the picture. Rhaegar assumed it was going to be a girl or boy it really doesn't matter, but realistically Jon was the spare, I think he promised Elia that her children with her were first in line. Elia and Rhaegar weren't in love, but Lyanna and Rhaegar were. In his mind it was set that the child of Lyanna was going to be the spare Prince or Princess. This idea that he just said " bye Elia " is ridiculous.

I, for one, do believe Rhaegar & Lyanna were in love. I don't know what Elia was aware of or ok with but it does seem odd to me that Lyanna would agree to having a child with Rhaegar knowing her child would be a bastard or a "spare" prince. I just can't see her being ok with that. Another thing that lends credence to the 'Rhaegar setting Elia aside' theory is that he crowed Lyanna the Queen of Love & Beauty in front of his wife & many others. This must have spurned Elia. If Elia & Rhaegar had some understanding where Lyanna was concerned surely part of that understanding would be not to publicly humiliate her. That being said there is much we don't know & Elia being aware of & even possibly ok with Rhaegar & Lyanna is possible, I personally just don't find it very likely. 

 

44 minutes ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Has anyone ever asked on the forum if Elia likely gave Rhaegar the idea of removing his father Aerys II from the throne? I mean they were on Dragonstone for like 3 years? So what they never talked? I call BS. If Lyanna was chosen by Rhaegar and he was in love with her, you don't think he went to tell Elia or Elia didn't know before hand that Rhaegar was looking at Lyanna Stark especially after he choose her? Maybe that she and Rhaegar planned this cause I don't know they were on Dragonstone for like 3 years

I'm not sure if it's ever been mentioned that possibly Elia gave Rhaegar the idea to overthrow Aerys but what would be her motive. Elia obviously knew Rhaegar looked at Lyanna after her crowned her if not before. Knowing your husband is looking at or falling in love with another woman is a far cry from being ok with it though. It may have been some plan concocted between Rhaegar & Elia but with what we have so far I don't see any evidence for it. There are too many things both women would have to agree with that they probably wouldn't. 

 

48 minutes ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Elia death and her tragic end. I'll say this, IT WAS NOT THE PLAN. Prince Rheagar was planning a coup against his father its rather interesting that Elia and her children was kept hostage in the Red Keep in order to keep the support of the Dornish? Seriously? No one thinks Rhaegar was pissed about this, Elia is his wife and yes more like a friend than a lover but he likely made a promise to her cause its clear Aegon was the one. It wouldn't surprise me if Rhaegar said " I have to go back, must tell Elia to go to Dragonstone and stay there" what if he did? You know the one stupid thing rhaegar did here? Was underestimating his father Aerys II unpredictability.Why did he return to Kings Landing after being at the Tower of Joy for a year? That motivation is rather strange? There is something not clear here and I think it makes sense he did it because his father learned of the coup during Robert Rebellion and he had his first wife ( Rhaegar i believe likely used polygamy here) Elia in Kings Landing when he likely hoped she was safe on Dragonstone. Rhaegar very likely assumed Elia , Rhaenys and Aegon were on Dragonstone. 

The idea that Rhaegar was returning to rescue Elia & his kids is not farfetched I would say. Although that in itself doesn't mean much. Whether he was friends with or hated Elia he would likely want to remove his children from harms way if he could. 

Maybe I'm not understanding though. Are you suggesting Rhaegar left the ToJ to return to Kings Landing to rescue Elia & the kids or that Rhaegar believed Elia & the kids were at Dragonstone? 

51 minutes ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

this idea that Elia Martell was the innocent in this is rather ridiculous, I think its more complicated than that, I think Rhaegar loved Lyanna yes but no way in hell he wanted to abandon Elia and I think its one of the reason why he went back and fought and ended up dying on the Trident.  

I don't think Elia was complicit in any of Rhaegar's dealings with Lyanna but I've been wrong before. I'm not making the connection between not wanting to abandon Elia & fighting & dying on the Trident though. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

So this idea that Elia Martell was the innocent in this is rather ridiculous,

How was Elia not innocent? Are you sure that is the right choice of words you are looking for?  

[goldenmaps]

I don’t think Elia had a choice in any of this.  Unless we get any new information about her being complicit in any of this, I'm going with Elia and her children being innocent.

Rhaegar disrespected her by naming Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty.  Both her and her children were kept as hostages because he ran off with Lyanna and started the war.  He didn't act or acted slowly to remove his father or stop the war.  He might have had good intentions but he didn't do anything.

By all accounts, Elia seemed like a decent person who any man would be lucky to have as a wife.  Elia did everything right as a wife.  She was sweet and funny and likable. She gave him two children.  She didn’t bad mouth her husband.  What more could he want.

Rhaegar runnin of with Lyanna pissed off three of the seven kingdoms.  It's hard keeping a kingdom together in the best of times.  Much harder when you do something so stupid.  Even Rickon would know better.

I think Rhaegar was wrong about the prophecy and why he was so important.  I actually think Dany is the important one.  She did bring back three dragons.  That's an amazing feat.  

I know people like to compare Lyanna to Arya and Sansa, but why.  If Lyanna willingly went off with Rhaegar she did something that hurt an innocent woman and her two kids.  I know she is Ned's sister and Jon's mother but what she did wasn't right.  Rhaegar and Lyanna hurt a lot of people, including their son.  I can't imagine either Arya or Sansa doing that to an innocent woman and her two kids.  Arya and Sansa are better than that.

[Curled Finger]

@King Jon Targaryen I, Brother, they are going to be really upset with us.   To be honest, I've never wanted the fight in posting a topic like this, so I will hide behind you and support you.  My thinking is very much in line with yours.  Elia was no dummy.  She was a princess of Dorne and then the entire realm.   She had what she needed.   That's not to say that Elia was a power grabber.   By the few accounts we have, she was a good woman, dutiful and loving.  But she did have the 2nd best position in the realm.  Her greatest problem was in being frail.  Rhaegar needed his damned prophecy fulfilled.   Elia likely understood that her job was to produce heirs.  Don't know that I would go so far as to say a spare heir, but definitely more heirs. I've thought she was complicit in the whole Lyanna debacle from the beginning.  Hell, for all we know Elia could have planned to get rid of Lyanna once her baby was born.  Maybe she wasn't the loving woman so many assume she was.  

I don't know to what extent Elia colluded in throwing a coup.    I'm not even sure there was a coup planned, but I think Rhaegar planned something--a Great Council, likely.   I don't know how politically astute Elia was, but considering her brothers and nieces, I imagine she was plenty aware of the er, unrest on the Iron Throne.   No one should ever mistake Dorne's obedience for complacence.   

Rhaegar never in a million years intended for Elia or the children to be harmed.  Her fate was tragic to the point of heart breaking.  Horrible.  The entire affair from Harrenhal to the Red Keep to the Tower of Joy was just so unpredictably bad.  That Rhaegar didn't kill Robert Baratheon long before he spirited Lyanna away speaks to Rhaegar's lack of guile and planning.   

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

I always found it strange that people assume Rhaegar was this jerk that didn't care about Elia Martell and left with Lyanna Stark with no consequence is to me a little ridiculous. Elia i think knew what was going on. This idea that Elia was this innocent bystander is ridiculous to me and I think there is more to the story. Its set that Aegon was the one Rhaegar thought was TPTWP, but he likely wanted another child and this is where Jon fit into the picture. Rhaegar assumed it was going to be a girl or boy it really doesn't matter, but realistically Jon was the spare, I think he promised Elia that her children with her were first in line. Elia and Rhaegar weren't in love, but Lyanna and Rhaegar were. In his mind it was set that the child of Lyanna was going to be the spare Prince or Princess. This idea that he just said " bye Elia " is ridiculous.

Has anyone ever asked on the forum if Elia likely gave Rhaegar the idea of removing his father Aerys II from the throne? I mean they were on Dragonstone for like 3 years? So what they never talked? I call BS. If Lyanna was chosen by Rhaegar and he was in love with her, you don't think he went to tell Elia or Elia didn't know before hand that Rhaegar was looking at Lyanna Stark especially after he choose her? Maybe that she and Rhaegar planned this cause I don't know they were on Dragonstone for like 3 years. 

Elia death and her tragic end. I'll say this, IT WAS NOT THE PLAN. Prince Rheagar was planning a coup against his father its rather interesting that Elia and her children was kept hostage in the Red Keep in order to keep the support of the Dornish? Seriously? No one thinks Rhaegar was pissed about this, Elia is his wife and yes more like a friend than a lover but he likely made a promise to her cause its clear Aegon was the one. It wouldn't surprise me if Rhaegar said " I have to go back, must tell Elia to go to Dragonstone and stay there" what if he did? You know the one stupid thing rhaegar did here? Was underestimating his father Aerys II unpredictability.Why did he return to Kings Landing after being at the Tower of Joy for a year? That motivation is rather strange? There is something not clear here and I think it makes sense he did it because his father learned of the coup during Robert Rebellion and he had his first wife ( Rhaegar i believe likely used polygamy here) Elia in Kings Landing when he likely hoped she was safe on Dragonstone. Rhaegar very likely assumed Elia , Rhaenys and Aegon were on Dragonstone. 

So this idea that Elia Martell was the innocent in this is rather ridiculous, I think its more complicated than that, I think Rhaegar loved Lyanna yes but no way in hell he wanted to abandon Elia and I think its one of the reason why he went back and fought and ended up dying on the Trident.  

Well Eddard tells us that Lyanna says love is sweet but doesn't change a man. Showing a possible disregard for love. 

Barristan tells us that Rhaegar wed for duty and not for love and that it wasn't in him to be happy. 

Nothing we are told about these two really lines up with why they would run away together like puppy love. 

Let alone what ever the actual relationship was between Elia and Rhaegar. 

I think there is definitely plenty reason to question everything we have been told. Why would Rhaegar return to fight for his father? Your right. Why does Jon Connington never make mention of Lyanna Stark, the woman Rhaegar supposedly died for? History is written by the victors

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

So this idea that Elia Martell was the innocent in this is rather ridiculous

If you mean by this that Elia had some involvement or agenda in the events, then I wholeheartedly agree. Whether she was of generous heart and allowed Rhaegar to find happiness with Lyanna, or was mightily pissed but sucked it up for the greater good (just like Visenya when Aegon married Rhaenys), or fell for the prophetic aspect (like Selyse), anything is better than a completely passive, helpless victim-character to whom things just happen out of blue sky. The HotU vision suggests that Rhaegar shared his thoughts about the prophecy with her, but so far, we haven't seen any reaction of hers towards the Lyanna issue - which I find peculiar. So far, Elia is a bit of an enigma, and I hope that we will learn more about her.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

10 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

How was Elia not innocent? Are you sure that is the right choice of words you are looking for?  

As in not aware, sorry for that

[King Jon Targaryen I]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If you mean by this that Elia had some involvement or agenda in the events, then I wholeheartedly agree. Whether she was of generous heart and allowed Rhaegar to find happiness with Lyanna, or was mightily pissed but sucked it up for the greater good (just like Visenya when Aegon married Rhaenys), or fell for the prophetic aspect (like Selyse), anything is better than a completely passive, helpless victim-character to whom things just happen out of blue sky. The HotU vision suggests that Rhaegar shared his thoughts about the prophecy with her, but so far, we haven't seen any reaction of hers towards the Lyanna issue - which I find peculiar. So far, Elia is a bit of an enigma, and I hope that we will learn more about her.

Yeah that much is true, I mean Rhaegar left Elia on Dragonstone with the children and it seems this is the reason why he left the Tower of Joy to fight in the war. He must have learned " Crap my father brought back from Dragonstone? Dammit" 

If Rhaegar was selfish he would've abandoned Elia with his daughter and newborn son but he didn't. He knew I had to get her even if he didn't love Elia Martell she was a best friend to Rhaegar and he had children which were part of his prophecy. Rhaegar to me didn't expect his father to commit the acts that he did and never expected him to hold Elia Martell hostage. George described the relationship as complex and there seems to be a lot of odd things going on here.

[Orphalesion]

8 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

I always found it strange that people assume Rhaegar was this jerk that didn't care about Elia Martell and left with Lyanna Stark with no consequence is to me a little ridiculous.

From what I can gather a portion of the people who insist on Rhaegar being a jerk with no possible alternative even remotely acceptable, are rabid Robert Baratheon fanboys, who just vilify Rhaegar and/or Lyanna to excuse his character flaws. You know the people who claim Robert and Lyanna would have been happy with one another and who think Robert wouldn't be a self-pitying, drunken, whoring mess if he got to marry his "one tru wuv".

I am not sure what happened and I don't want to completely commit to any one interpretation until we get unbiased textual evidence on what happened.

My current theory is:

Rhaegar was attracted to Lyanna, but was mostly interested in fulfilling the prophecy. He neither wanted to hurt Elia nor Lyanna, but thought a child with Lyanna was necessary for the survival of the Seven Kingdoms. There might even have been an arrangement with Elia.

Lyanna was attracted to Rhaegar in a "my first crush" kind of way (I think Lyanna united many of the strengths, but also weaknesses of both her nieces)and wanted to find a way out of the Baratheon engagement (and maybe rebel against daddy and her brothers) and might not have quite understood what she got herself into.

Robert Baratheon would have been a self-involved, drunken, whoring mess no matter who is wife was and a Robert/Lyanna pairing would have been even less harmonious than Robert/Cersei and would have caused severe friction between Baratheon and Stark.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well Eddard tells us that Lyanna says love is sweet but doesn't change a man. Showing a possible disregard for love. 

Barristan tells us that Rhaegar wed for duty and not for love and that it wasn't in him to be happy. 

Nothing we are told about these two really lines up with why they would run away together like puppy love. 

Let alone what ever the actual relationship was between Elia and Rhaegar. 

I think there is definitely plenty reason to question everything we have been told. Why would Rhaegar return to fight for his father? Your right. Why does Jon Connington never make mention of Lyanna Stark, the woman Rhaegar supposedly died for? History is written by the victors

Him going back to fight I always suspected its because he very likely assumed Elia and his children were safe on Dragonstone. Imagine he is at the Tower of Joy and Arthur Dayne tells him his father Aerys II knows of the coup and as called back Elia along with his children back on dragonstone? Its very likely Aerys would've after the war punish Rhaegar. Rhaegar's reaction would've been despair and panic he must go back his already killed Rickard Stark and Brandon, his father was unpredictable he would've killed Elia. We don't know but imagine Aerys learned were they were and threathen his son to come because he had his wife Elia and the kids. 

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Him going back to fight I always suspected its because he very likely assumed Elia and his children were safe on Dragonstone. Imagine he is at the Tower of Joy and Arthur Dayne tells him his father Aerys II knows of the coup and as called back Elia along with his children back on dragonstone? Its very likely Aerys would've after the war punish Rhaegar. Rhaegar's reaction would've been despair and panic he must go back his already killed Rickard Stark and Brandon, his father was unpredictable he would've killed Elia. We don't know but imagine Aerys learned were they were and threathen his son to come because he had his wife Elia and the kids. 

Rhaegar should've known this all before he stole Lyanna. That's what doesn't make sense. With his father already not trusting him supposedly. Plus he was supposedly getting ready to usurp his father, yet still fights for him and refuses to deny his father the crutch that is Jamie Lannister. A protection from his father whom he truly feared. Jamie's memory of Rhaegar alone calls alot into question. He meant to make changes, but what changes? Doesn't sound like he was gonna kill his father if he's protecting his father. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

When it comes to Elia, I find there are some interesting parallels between here and Arianne. 

What I find most interesting is the breaking down of Rhaegar and Elia's marriage. So they marry in 280, and by the the end of 282, Rhaegar has essentially left her. During their 2 year marriage, Elia was pregnant twice. If both pregnancies went to term, that's 18 months out of 24. I'm guessing they got married at the beginning of 280 to allow for the timeline to make some sense since what GRRM gave us is pretty tight. 

Jon connington I think, tells us that Elia was bedridden for 6 months after Rhaenys's birth. During the 2 year they were married, we find out from both Ulmer of the Kingswood and Jaime that Elia traveled to Dorne, and from Arianne that Elia brought Rhaenys with her to Dorne. The Dorne trip happens sometime after she is recovered from giving birth to Rhaenys and Aegon has been conceived.

I don't think either one of them were under any illusions about what their marriage was. Elia was the tool the Princess of Dorne used to one up Tywin who had insulted her to her face and Rhaegar was the prize the Princess of Dorne won, not Elia. 

But Elia's inability to have/carry more children may have made Rhaegar's life a lot easier in pursuing Lyanna. He is a prince, the crown prince at that and he has to make children to ensure that his line continues. From a "religious" standpoint (this is not the word I'm looking for), I think it would make complete sense for the High Septon to allow him to take another wife. These are extenuating circumstances. This is a marriage that will yield no more children. I don't know if they knew the dangers of a second pregnancy for Elia would be. But if the first pregnancy put her in bed for six months, what did they expect a second pregnancy would do to her?

As far as Lyanna goes, I think Rhaegar did love her and that whatever happened had nothing to do with prophecy. I was really surprised when I started reading Reddit and listening to some YouTubers that there's a widespread idea that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy. Between what Barristan says about Rhaegar loving his Lady Lyanna and Rhaegar's last thoughts before he died being for her, it's hard for me to believe that he did all he did for prophecy. 

If Rhaegar had been allowed to take a second wife, he might have decided that this time it would be someone he loved. And if his father refused him, he might have decided to defy him and do it anyway. I always found that passage in Barristan's POV that begins with Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna really interesting as a whole and pretty telling of how things may have gone down. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If you mean by this that Elia had some involvement or agenda in the events, then I wholeheartedly agree. Whether she was of generous heart and allowed Rhaegar to find happiness with Lyanna, or was mightily pissed but sucked it up for the greater good (just like Visenya when Aegon married Rhaenys), or fell for the prophetic aspect (like Selyse), anything is better than a completely passive, helpless victim-character to whom things just happen out of blue sky. The HotU vision suggests that Rhaegar shared his thoughts about the prophecy with her, but so far, we haven't seen any reaction of hers towards the Lyanna issue - which I find peculiar. So far, Elia is a bit of an enigma, and I hope that we will learn more about her.

So well said, Ygrain.   I read a lot into the Dornish characters, but never helpless.   

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Yeah that much is true, I mean Rhaegar left Elia on Dragonstone with the children and it seems this is the reason why he left the Tower of Joy to fight in the war. He must have learned " Crap my father brought back from Dragonstone? Dammit" 

If Rhaegar was selfish he would've abandoned Elia with his daughter and newborn son but he didn't. He knew I had to get her even if he didn't love Elia Martell she was a best friend to Rhaegar and he had children which were part of his prophecy. Rhaegar to me didn't expect his father to commit the acts that he did and never expected him to hold Elia Martell hostage. George described the relationship as complex and there seems to be a lot of odd things going on here.

Now this is a good idea - IIRC, everyone, myself included, has always supposed that Rhaegar returned to KL out of duty to his dynasty, to stabilize the land by putting down the Rebellion, and there has been quiet a lot of head-shaking why it took him so long. Now, if Elia was the reason, it would make much more sense. Is it mentioned anywhere when Aerys had her come to KL?

That said: did Aerys summon her as a hostage solely against Dorne (he already had her in his clutches when he sent Lewyn Martell gather the army), or against Rhaegar, as well? IMHO, as Rhaegar "abandoned" her, she would seem useless as a bargaining point against him. However, by removing her from the safety of Dragonstone along with Rhaegar's two dragon heads, Aerys would have made it imperative for Rhaegar to do his best to ensure their safety, without Aerys even knowing what a master stroke he had made!

BTW, if Elia was in on Rhaegar's plan, whatever it was, his disappearance created a perfect alibi for her - I mean, who would ever expect a disgraced wife to participate in her husband's schemes? No-one would ever dream to ask her about his whereabouts, right? 

- Which brings me to another point: communication channels to ToJ. If Elia had been on the plan all along, she may have kept Rhaegar informed in some way (though with a considerable delay). Once she was ordered to KL, the communication would be hindered and Rhaegar would have to get in touch with Aerys, to ensure her and the children's safety, and that would explain how Hightower found ToJ when initially, no-one knew where Rhaegar had gone.

 

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Robert Baratheon would have been a self-involved, drunken, whoring mess no matter who is wife was and a Robert/Lyanna pairing would have been even less harmonious than Robert/Cersei and would have caused severe friction between Baratheon and Stark.

Agree 100%. Cersei was a disappointment as a wife, but Lyanna was his fancy, his idol. If she showed him the iron beneath, which he never knew, he would have felt betrayed because, in his eyes, he never did anything wrong. And "love" gone sour, an idol falled from the pedestal, has a potential for very ugly

12 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know if they knew the dangers of a second pregnancy for Elia would be. But if the first pregnancy put her in bed for six months, what did they expect a second pregnancy would do to her?

I suppose they might have considered it their duty to keep trying, but one or both called quits once the risk became too great.

12 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

 there's a widespread idea that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy. Between what Barristan says about Rhaegar loving his Lady Lyanna and Rhaegar's last thoughts before he died being for her, it's hard for me to believe that he did all he did for prophecy. 

The prophecy certainly played a huge role in his life (he considered it his duty to become a warrior because the prophecy required it and from the HotU vision, it seems he was trying to father the PTWP), but I fully agree that he genuinely fell in love with Lyanna, regardless of the prophecy. There was a discussion in which @Alia of the knife suggested that he fulfilled the prophecy at the moment when he stopped trying to force it, when his actions were not prophecy-driven. I am not convinced one way or another but I do like this scenario - however, I find it hard to believe that someone familiar with "a song of ice and fire" might ever overlook the Stark-Targaryen symbolics. But if he discovered that KotLT was a lady and was smitten even before he learned who she was, well... And after Elia couldn't bear any more children, the prophecy would be a convenient excuse why he should follow his feelings; as if fate itself was giving him a sign that she was the one.

[Ygrain]

39 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

So well said, Ygrain.   I read a lot into the Dornish characters, but never helpless.   

Thank you. Elia seems gentler and kinder than the rest of her family we have been introduced to, but that doesn't equal weak, and she was clever, which doesn't correspond with passivity, either.

[Leo of House Cartel]

I reckon that Elia, as sister to no-less a pair of schemers than Oberyn and Doran, would have been a highly cunning person. All the other Martell/Sand females we see have a strong sense of independence, a devious mind, and the courage to go out and make things happen.

I like the idea that she might have influenced Rhaegar's dislike of his father - replacing the Mad King sooner than later would simply be better for Sunspear and Elia's "Dornish smelling" children.

We know that the Martells have a drop of Dragon blood, so there's a strong chance that Elia wouldn't have minded the Lyanna/Rhaegar relationship, if she had an interest in the history of The Conqueror. We have seen Rhaegar and her discussing the PTWP prophecy during Dany's vision, so I can't think why Elia wouldn't have gotten on board with the plan, other than for reasons of potential jealousy.

Another thing to point out is Nymeria's voyage. A hero to the Dornish, Lady Nymeria's story would no doubt draw comparisons from Elia Nymeros Martell to whatever PWTP stuff Rhaegar Targaryen told her. Both stories have aspects of "apocalypses" and "messiah figures".  After Elia found out she couldn't have any more kids I think she may very well have welcomed Lyanna's anointment as QOLAB, as I believe she trusted in her husband's belief in prophecy.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

Well I appreciate the comments here and this discussion. No ill faith here, I just wanted people to here this alternative since I myself feel bad for Elia but I noticed ever since the show people are using the anulling idea that is presented on the show to justify the black and white view of Rhaegar and Elia without further information. It's complex relationship as George said.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

20 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Now this is a good idea - IIRC, everyone, myself included, has always supposed that Rhaegar returned to KL out of duty to his dynasty, to stabilize the land by putting down the Rebellion, and there has been quiet a lot of head-shaking why it took him so long. Now, if Elia was the reason, it would make much more sense. Is it mentioned anywhere when Aerys had her come to KL?

That said: did Aerys summon her as a hostage solely against Dorne (he already had her in his clutches when he sent Lewyn Martell gather the army), or against Rhaegar, as well? IMHO, as Rhaegar "abandoned" her, she would seem useless as a bargaining point against him. However, by removing her from the safety of Dragonstone along with Rhaegar's two dragon heads, Aerys would have made it imperative for Rhaegar to do his best to ensure their safety, without Aerys even knowing what a master stroke he had made!

BTW, if Elia was in on Rhaegar's plan, whatever it was, his disappearance created a perfect alibi for her - I mean, who would ever expect a disgraced wife to participate in her husband's schemes? No-one would ever dream to ask her about his whereabouts, right? 

- Which brings me to another point: communication channels to ToJ. If Elia had been on the plan all along, she may have kept Rhaegar informed in some way (though with a considerable delay). Once she was ordered to KL, the communication would be hindered and Rhaegar would have to get in touch with Aerys, to ensure her and the children's safety, and that would explain how Hightower found ToJ when initially, no-one knew where Rhaegar had gone.

 

Agree 100%. Cersei was a disappointment as a wife, but Lyanna was his fancy, his idol. If she showed him the iron beneath, which he never knew, he would have felt betrayed because, in his eyes, he never did anything wrong. And "love" gone sour, an idol falled from the pedestal, has a potential for very ugly

I suppose they might have considered it their duty to keep trying, but one or both called quits once the risk became too great.

The prophecy certainly played a huge role in his life (he considered it his duty to become a warrior because the prophecy required it and from the HotU vision, it seems he was trying to father the PTWP), but I fully agree that he genuinely fell in love with Lyanna, regardless of the prophecy. There was a discussion in which @Alia of the knife suggested that he fulfilled the prophecy at the moment when he stopped trying to force it, when his actions were not prophecy-driven. I am not convinced one way or another but I do like this scenario - however, I find it hard to believe that someone familiar with "a song of ice and fire" might ever overlook the Stark-Targaryen symbolics. But if he discovered that KotLT was a lady and was smitten even before he learned who she was, well... And after Elia couldn't bear any more children, the prophecy would be a convenient excuse why he should follow his feelings; as if fate itself was giving him a sign that she was the one.

To me the biggest miscalculation made by Rhaegar was his father Aerys behavior. We cannot ignore that Aerys court was factional as Pycelle being a Lannister fanboy even noticed this interestingly enough. Rhaegar even told his father hey get Tywins help. Also Ygrain isn't it interesting that Tywin sacked Kings Landing after Rhaegar death at the trident. He was playing the game even then. If Rhaegar killed Robert and won the battle at the trident isn't it convenient that oh look " Hey Rhaegar I helped save Elia, and your children". Though the minute Rhaegar died hmm now the children are expendable? Hmm. Sorry for my writing, I'm typing on a tablet here. 

[The Commentator]

10 hours ago, goldenmaps said:

I don’t think Elia had a choice in any of this.  Unless we get any new information about her being complicit in any of this, I'm going with Elia and her children being innocent.

Rhaegar disrespected her by naming Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty.  Both her and her children were kept as hostages because he ran off with Lyanna and started the war.  He didn't act or acted slowly to remove his father or stop the war.  He might have had good intentions but he didn't do anything.

By all accounts, Elia seemed like a decent person who any man would be lucky to have as a wife.  Elia did everything right as a wife.  She was sweet and funny and likable. She gave him two children.  She didn’t bad mouth her husband.  What more could he want.

Rhaegar runnin of with Lyanna pissed off three of the seven kingdoms.  It's hard keeping a kingdom together in the best of times.  Much harder when you do something so stupid.  Even Rickon would know better.

I think Rhaegar was wrong about the prophecy and why he was so important.  I actually think Dany is the important one.  She did bring back three dragons.  That's an amazing feat.  

I know people like to compare Lyanna to Arya and Sansa, but why.  If Lyanna willingly went off with Rhaegar she did something that hurt an innocent woman and her two kids.  I know she is Ned's sister and Jon's mother but what she did wasn't right.  Rhaegar and Lyanna hurt a lot of people, including their son.  I can't imagine either Arya or Sansa doing that to an innocent woman and her two kids.  Arya and Sansa are better than that.

Thank you for bringing this up.  Nothing in the text suggests Elia did anything wrong.  By all accounts, Elia was a fine and decent woman. 

To the o/p:

She deserved better than what she got if Rhaegar ran off with another woman.  I am not sold on R+L=J but since this topic assumes that and I want to comment I will go with it for this discussion.  But we have to also consider other equally likely scenarios.  Like Lyanna ran into Rhaegar for help because she wanted to avoid her marriage to Robert.  Ever chivalrous and soft, Rhaegar agreed to give her shelter.  While this is not a violation of his marriage vows it was still irresponsible for a prince of the realm to do.  The prince does not take sides.  Another scenario, and the one that I favor, Lyanna was already pregnant and ran to Rhaegar for help.  Whose the baby's daddy?  Mance Rayder and Brandon Stark are the best suspects.