Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The prophecy certainly played a huge role in his life (he considered it his duty to become a warrior because the prophecy required it and from the HotU vision, it seems he was trying to father the PTWP), but I fully agree that he genuinely fell in love with Lyanna, regardless of the prophecy. There was a discussion in which @Alia of the knife suggested that he fulfilled the prophecy at the moment when he stopped trying to force it, when his actions were not prophecy-driven. I am not convinced one way or another but I do like this scenario - however, I find it hard to believe that someone familiar with "a song of ice and fire" might ever overlook the Stark-Targaryen symbolics. But if he discovered that KotLT was a lady and was smitten even before he learned who she was, well... And after Elia couldn't bear any more children, the prophecy would be a convenient excuse why he should follow his feelings; as if fate itself was giving him a sign that she was the one.

For a well-read person, Rhaegar also fell asleep on the whole Pact of Ice and Fire. It's possible that he knew Rickard Stark had a daughter, but given her age and Aerys's single-mindedness in slapping down Tywin, she may not have been an option because it would have taken some years before they married. Two pissy people (Aerys and the Princess of Dorne) came together to negotiate a marriage which seems to have been partly to spite Tywin. 

As far as Harrenhal goes, Lyanna did a couple of things that might have attracted Rhaegar's attention from the onset, before he knew who she was. He could very well have witnessed the incident with Howland and the squires and later the cup wine. And following the Howland incident, if he watched the mystery knight take the field, it may not have been all that difficult for him to put two and two together after he saw the knights that were singled out. 

10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Elia seems gentler and kinder than the rest of her family we have been introduced to, but that doesn't equal weak, and she was clever, which doesn't correspond with passivity, either.

I think anyone who believes that Elia was helpless might be selling the character short. I'd be more willing to buy the helpless angle if we had never met her nieces. Those girls are anything but passive or helpless, every single one of them. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

One indication that Rhaegar's polygamy was accepted by Elia is the fact that Dorne still supports the Targaryen's despite it all. A lot of other major houses took serious issue with the behavior of the Targaryens including houses Arryn, Tully, Stark, Baratheon, not to mention the amount of bannermen who chose their liege lords and kin over their king. Dorne seems to be very much in favor of a Targ return. It's the only action that Doran has put into play that we know of. In fact, the only house we know to have sent people to meet these exiled Targs is Dorne. The Viper swears for (or wanted to until Jon Arryn intervenes) Viscerys. Quentyn meets Dany. 

Spoiler

Arianna is off to meet (f)aegon. 

If the Targaryens have earned any enmity with Dorne then we don't get to see it. It's also fitting to remember that this is the Dornish we are talking about. They quite progressive with regards to sex and sexuality. If any kingdom in the 7K were open to alternative arrangements it's easily them. Oh and when Ned found Lyanna which Kingdom should he find her in? Dorne! 

By handing Lyanna the crown of blue roses at a tourney, he was making a public declaration to anyone who were able to interpret it. Not wound his wife. It would of been evident to Westerossi who'd heard the song of Bael the Bard: Blue roses + Stark maid = surprise baby! It's a song that I expect most Northern Lords to know well. A singer, runs away with a Stark female. Nobody is murdered or raped, she just returns one day holding a new male heir just when they needed one. 

I'm with the OP that Elia knew Rhaegar's intentions re Lyanna and supported him in a similar fashion to Selyse with Stannis. It could be love, or duty or prophecy but either way, Elia's family still seem to revere Rhaegar and support the Targryens. That's not the rational reaction to adultery, humiliation, and rape. 

Barristan paints quite the sad picture of Rhaegar. Unlike the man who killed him, Rhaegar was apparently melancholic, dutiful and born in grief. He also reveals during an inner monologue that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Elia, with her heirs to the IT apparently safe and secure could of easily supported Rhaegar in either a prophecy or in the pursuit of genuine love. 

My personal belief is that Rhaegar needed one last heir (the third head of the dragon) and Elia simply wasn't up to it. We know so little about her but the author has made sure we know how frail she is, and is described as being in delicate health. And with zero proof I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Elia being Dornish was more open to Rhaegar having his third child with another woman but not out of duty. Out of love. A subject often skirted around in our story. 

Basically, not all women are as cruel and vindictive as Cersei. Not all men are as controlling and cowardly as Robert. The bad guys (for lack of a better term) won RR and that's why we think as they do; that Rhaegar must be a rapist. Because his killer whom we meet so early on is projecting his own malice onto the former prince of DS. Without Robert, we'd hear a lot less of criticisms toward Rhaegar and there'd be little and less reason to even think this way.

[Geddus]

The dornish supported the Targaryens only because Aerys was threatening Elia and her children so yes, they were pissed.

As for Elia herself, if she agreed with Rhaegar taking another wife (from a house more powerful than her own at that) she was a complete moron and she's never described as such.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

20 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Basically, not all women are as cruel and vindictive as Cersei. Not all men are as controlling and cowardly as Robert. The bad guys (for lack of a better term) won RR and that's why we think as they do; that Rhaegar must be a rapist. Because his killer whom we meet so early on is projecting his own malice onto the former prince of DS. Without Robert, we'd hear a lot less of criticisms toward Rhaegar and there'd be little and less reason to even think this way.

Robert is the only character in the story who levels that sort of criticism at Rhaegar. No one else seems to believe the stories of rape. Jorah who fought for the north during RR certainly doesn't seem to believe Rhaegar is a rapist. When Dany wants the Dothraki to stop raping the Lhazareen women, Jorah tells her she is her brother's sister. And Jorah being from the north might be able to give more information on Lyanna.

We also hae Manderly's words to Davos about Rhaegar Frey, a smirking worm who wears a dragon's name, Godric Borell sentiments on the matter. There's Renly's own comments to Brienne about Robert not being the rightful king. Jaime calls Rhaegar the rightful heir to the throne. If people who were close enough to the situation think like this, how many more do? 

Varys and Illyrio are banking on Rhaegar's name to put Aegon on the throne. 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

 isn't it interesting that Tywin sacked Kings Landing after Rhaegar death at the trident. He was playing the game even then. If Rhaegar killed Robert and won the battle at the trident isn't it convenient that oh look " Hey Rhaegar I helped save Elia, and your children". Though the minute Rhaegar died hmm now the children are expendable? Hmm. Sorry for my writing, I'm typing on a tablet here. 

Tywin played for the win, and you're right, had Rhaegar won, he would have had to make some move to ingratiate himself with the new king. Securing Aerys and rescuing Elia sounds like a plan, but would Rhaegar fall for such blatant opportunism? And what about Tywin's plan to marry Cersei to Rhaegar, would he have abandoned that completely?

(On a side note: since Pycelle was a Lannister toadie, Elia's fragile health may have suffered yet another blow. I've been wondering whether her difficult deliveries were indeed only due to delicate health, or if there could have been something else going on. Pity we never hear who her maester(s) was, and if, by chance, Pycelle as the highest authority available wasn't sent to DS in good faith by Rhaella.)

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Like Lyanna ran into Rhaegar for help because she wanted to avoid her marriage to Robert. 

You mean, Alys Karstark scenario? Quite possible, though it doesn't preclude a blossoming romance further on.

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The prince does not take sides.

Where is this rule stated?

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

  Another scenario, and the one that I favor, Lyanna was already pregnant and ran to Rhaegar for help.  Whose the baby's daddy?  Mance Rayder and Brandon Stark are the best suspects.

Then she either had a super long pregnancy, or delivered soon after and immediately got preggers again, for Jon to be born at around the time of the Sack - unless you're also at the camp of Dany not being Dany and thus not being born 9 months after the Sack, which in turn would set Jon's birth at an unknown point. Too many ifs here for my liking.

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

As far as Harrenhal goes, Lyanna did a couple of things that might have attracted Rhaegar's attention from the onset, before he knew who she was. He could very well have witnessed the incident with Howland and the squires and later the cup wine. And following the Howland incident, if he watched the mystery knight take the field, it may not have been all that difficult for him to put two and two together after he saw the knights that were singled out. 

Yeah, it would make things less complicated if Rhaegar saw the she-wolf laying into the squires, that would have been a sight court ladies couldn't hope to match.

 

4 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

One indication that Rhaegar's polygamy was accepted by Elia is the fact that Dorne still supports the Targaryen's despite it all.

That might have something to do with the fact that the anti-Targaryens murdered Elia and her children, so restoring the Targaryens could be seen as a revenge on the Lannisters and Baratheons.

 

4 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

It would of been evident to Westerossi who'd heard the song of Bael the Bard: Blue roses + Stark maid = surprise baby! It's a song that I expect most Northern Lords to know well. A singer, runs away with a Stark female. Nobody is murdered or raped, she just returns one day holding a new male heir just when they needed one. 

Yet Jon never heard it before. And since it is a song with a wildling hero, I think it is a safe bet that it is a wildling song. And even if there was cultural interchange between the North and the wildling, which there is not, I doubt that a song about their Lord Paragon being bested by a wildling and his House continuing through a wildling bastard would be hugely popular.

 

 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

That might have something to do with the fact that the anti-Targaryens murdered Elia and her children, so restoring the Targaryens could be seen as a revenge on the Lannisters and Baratheons.

 

Yet Jon never heard it before. And since it is a song with a wildling hero, I think it is a safe bet that it is a wildling song. And even if there was cultural interchange between the North and the wildling, which there is not, I doubt that a song about their Lord Paragon being bested by a wildling and his House continuing through a wildling bastard would be hugely popular.

 

 

Good points. I do not doubt for a moment that the Dornish despise the Lannisters and Baratheons. Jon Arryn still held sway, enough to convince Oberyn to not swear for Viscerys. The exact point I am trying to make is that somehow, despite being Elia being allegedly jilted by Rhaegar coupled with the fact that Aerys didn't relocate Elia (essentially treating her and her children as hostages) to DS ought to of earned some enmity. Even a small amount of scorn but instead Doran seems to be hurling his family toward some kind of Targ restoration and there does not seem to be any other agenda. Of course, Doran could easily have a different motivation. But all three Targaryen heirs whom survived RR have been approached by the Martels in some fashion. 

"You know nothing Jon Snow..." Jon snow knows nothing. About anything. It makes him the perfect character to get lost in the North with as he needs practically everything spelled out for him. Luckily, we have characters like Bran to learn these tales from Old Nan plus he has the greendreams and WW. Bran is far more invested in his Northern heritage where-as Jon spent his entire life believing he was little more than Ned's bastard and "not a Stark". This being the case, I don't believe Jon was at all invested in Stark history. He has nightmares about merely going into the crypts. Bran, in contrast, does not fear the Crypts, at all. He hid down there for (I forget how long) a good amount of time. Rickon too. 

As for the songs popularity, I think you're right. Most Northern Lords probably wouldn't of broadcast this information. But I do believe that it was suppose to be a fitting code. A clue. Even if it's just for our benefit. Blue winter roses. The theft of a maid of WF. The Stark Lord discovering said maid with a newborn baby. Maybe Rhaegar wasn't trying to communicate his intent en mass. But I do believe the tale reached his ears. He was a bard himself and preferred music to swordplay.  

 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Maybe Rhaegar wasn't trying to communicate his intent en mass. But I do believe the tale reached his ears. He was a bard himself and preferred music to swordplay.  

The possibility cannnot be entirely excluded, but if the song was indeed of wildling origin, I think its chances of making it across the Wall were rather slim, so unless a fellow bard was collecting wildling songs and Rhaegar somehow learned, I don't think he knew this one. IMHO, the inclusion of Bael's tale is not supposed to signify a wide knowledge, it is rather GRRM's buildup for RLJ after killing off the insight of Ned's POV.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

Do we know how long Elia was there at the Tourney? She returned the Dragonstone after but does anyone know how long she was there? Was if after being there for 7 days?

[TheThreeEyedCow]

29 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The possibility cannnot be entirely excluded, but if the song was indeed of wildling origin, I think its chances of making it across the Wall were rather slim, so unless a fellow bard was collecting wildling songs and Rhaegar somehow learned, I don't think he knew this one. IMHO, the inclusion of Bael's tale is not supposed to signify a wide knowledge, it is rather GRRM's buildup for RLJ after killing off the insight of Ned's POV.

You're probably right. I can't prove that Rhaegar knew the story/song of Bael and intentionally used it as a device to communicate his intent. But. Rhaegar is no ordinary bard. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that a 'bookish' prince of DS with a flare for music and a hard-on for prophecy would of known the song and the significance of blue roses. Otherwise, GRRM could of used a crown of any colour at that fateful tourney. Instead, it's the same blue rose which Dany see's growing from a wall of ice and the same blue rose left in place of a Stark maid. Maybe it's a coincidence or a mere subtle hint from George. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's the only solid piece of evidence that connects all the relevant characters. IRL flowers have meanings. They are selected based on appearance but some choose a specific flower to convey a personal message. 

With regards to the topic (puts on tin foil hat), I think Rhaegar had a plan and I don't think he kept it to himself. It is rumored that the Tourney at Harrenhal was in fact an opportunity for Rhaegar to organise a 'great council'. Something that happens when the line of succession is uncertain or unclear. His KG were loyal, they would of done most anything (if not literally anything) for Rhaegar. But Elia. A woman described as intelligent but in delicate health, knowing that Rhaegar wanted a third child..... I think Elia knew. I think Doran knew. I think the KG knew. And I think that the Starks of old would of known also, it's just a shame that the Starks at the time were less invested in their own legacy and culture and were now playing the GOT with Arryn and Baratheon and Tully. 

I think Ned went to the ToJ expecting to solve a crime but instead discovered a plot and he tried to bury it, sacrificing his honor in the process and lying to Lyanna that he would tell Jon the truth.  

(Takes off tin foil hat) I just needed to get that out of my system! tWoW can't arrive soon enough. 

[goldenmaps]

If Elia knew that Rhaegar wanted another child, she might have agreed to it.  But, I don't think she would be happy about it.  I doubt Elia would care that if Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna.  She would definitely be hurt.  She has already have done her duty and gave him two children.  I don't think that Dorne would have held it against the child though.  They might have wanted to keep the peace since the heir has Dornish blood.  Or blame the other woman.

Even if Rhaegar knew the story, nobody else knew.  It was a definite slight against Elia.  It showed huge disrespect.  Magic hasn't been seen for a while.  Prophecy isn't infallible. it can backfire.  Bael the Bard is a story.  It doesn't make the story true.  There might be some truth to it.  I doubt the whole story is true.

 

[chrisdaw]

I imagine GRRM would have been aware Rhaegar/Lyanna fans would want to exonerate their affair, and he could have given you that through Elia but he chose not to, not yet anyway.

The moral of the story is going to end up Rhaegar should have stayed at home and tended his own backyard and Lyanna should have done her duty. Elia has to therefor remain in the least sympathetic.

[Ygrain]

58 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I imagine GRRM would have been aware Rhaegar/Lyanna fans would want to exonerate their affair, and he could have given you that through Elia but he chose not to, not yet anyway.

Neither did he choose to give a clear rejection by Elia, either.

[Hodor the Articulate]

I get that people want Elia to have some agency, but I don't think GRRM is going to give her that. She's just another in a long line of mothers who died in childbirth to support our protagonists' backstories. There's just too much of a leap from being too sickly to bear more children to helping her husband produce more heirs with a woman from another noble house.

Also, there was no obligation for the crown prince to produce more heirs. That's the King's duty, and Aerys was still able to churn out more at that time, as evidenced by Rhaella's pregnancy. Counting Aegon, there were already two spares (and the possibility of three, as they didn't know what sex Dany was going to be), which was enough. I find any sort of arrangement that banks on Elia's barrenness to be implausible.

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The moral of the story is going to end up Rhaegar should have stayed at home and tended his own backyard and Lyanna should have done her duty. Elia has to therefor remain in the least sympathetic.

Seeing as a good chunk of the series is about societal upheavals and not conforming to tradition, I highly doubt that the moral of this story is going to be that everyone should have not rocked the boat. I mean, look where doing her duty got Sansa.

[chrisdaw]

43 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Seeing as a good chunk of the series is about societal upheavals and not conforming to tradition, I highly doubt that the moral of this story is going to be that everyone should have not rocked the boat. I mean, look where doing her duty got Sansa.

Not conforming to traditions causing societal upheaval, that is war, mass death, injustice, is exactly why the moral of the story will be do your duty. Do what Ned did, do what Catelyn did (prior), in their selflessness things ran as they are supposed to. Don't do what Cersei and Jaime did, don't do what Rhaegar and Lyanna did, that causes wars.

It isn't about where Sansa got to, just like it isn't about Rhaegar, Lyanna or Elia. It isn't about the individual highborn, it is about the collective lowborn.

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 2/8/2018 at 2:01 PM, chrisdaw said:

Not conforming to traditions causing societal upheaval, that is war, mass death, injustice, is exactly why the moral of the story will be do your duty. Do what Ned did, do what Catelyn did (prior), in their selflessness things ran as they are supposed to. Don't do what Cersei and Jaime did, don't do what Rhaegar and Lyanna did, that causes wars.

It isn't about where Sansa got to, just like it isn't about Rhaegar, Lyanna or Elia. It isn't about the individual highborn, it is about the collective lowborn.

If the wellbeing of the collective lowborn was most important, the right thing to do would be to reconstruct society so that the noble families did not have a monopoly on power. And when you get to Essoss, your interpretation breaks down completely, because "doing your duty" means continuing slavery. Obviously, that is not what GRRM is going for. He did not spend the past five books pointing out all the problems of Westerosi society to say "but don't change anything!"

[Crona]

From what I remember, she doesn’t strike me as a plotter. She is described as duitiful, having a sweet wit, and loving towards children. I suspect Rheagar may have told her about prophecies and she encouraged them because he was her husband. I doubt, she would want any potential enemies for her children, (such as rival children from Lyanna) so if I had to assume if she knew Rhaegar wanted to be with Lyanna, then she would have made a deal with him that afterwards she will take her children back to Dorne and live separately.

One thing I found interesting, is that during Harrenhall, Rhaegar crowned Lyanna while Elia was pregnant and this is before being told if she had another child that she would die. Dorne seemed angry about this and we have no reaction from Elia. Assuming Rhaegar still wanted to have his third child with Elia, why would he publicly proclaim for Lyanna. Also their relationship was described as complicated. I think there may have been some conflict between them before Lyanna even showed up. 

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

If the wellbeing of the collective lowborn was most important, the right thing to do would be to reconstruct society so that the noble families did not have a monopoly on power. And when you get to Essoss, your interpretation breaks down completely, because "doing your duty" means continuing slavery. Obviously, that is not what GRRM is going for. He did not spend the past five books pointing out all the problems of Westerosi society to say "but don't change anything!"

You're swerving and hoping down side roads under the shadow of the massive overhead straight highway that runs straight to the centre.

ASOIAF is a study of medieval society, how it functions, flaws and cons, when it functions well and when it doesn't. There's absolutely no thought or appetite for structural societal change in Westeros, for five books, not the slightest inkling. What has been detailed with numerous examples and multiple summary quotes and particularly with regards to Rhaegar and Lyanna is that acting on romantic love at the expense of duty fucks everything.

It is a theme, yet to be realised in a sympathetic form with one of the most central protags, it will be, that's the whole point of it, why he had Catelyn harp on having always done her duty, why Arya keeps walking into stories about how her parents fucked other people, why Black Beth and that whole history exists, for Barristan's little pearls of wisdom about mud and fire men and the realm bleeding, and half the reason for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Hodor the Articulate]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You're swerving and hoping down side roads under the shadow of the massive overhead straight highway that runs straight to the centre.

ASOIAF is a study of medieval society, how it functions, flaws and cons, when it functions well and when it doesn't. There's absolutely no thought or appetite for structural societal change in Westeros, for five books, not the slightest inkling. What has been detailed with numerous examples and multiple summary quotes and particularly with regards to Rhaegar and Lyanna is that acting on romantic love at the expense of duty fucks everything.

It is a theme, yet to be realised in a sympathetic form with one of the most central protags, it will be, that's the whole point of it, why he had Catelyn harp on having always done her duty, why Arya keeps walking into stories about how her parents fucked other people, why Black Beth and that whole history exists, for Barristan's little pearls of wisdom about mud and fire men and the realm bleeding, and half the reason for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

But there will be change, whether the characters are actively working for it or not. Dany, the Others, and greyscale will see to that. Plus, there's the rising resentment among the smallfolk - what will have been the point of even including their voices if everything just stayed the same for them in the end? And if ASOIAF has a conformist message, why are all the surviving central protagonists outsiders?

Also you have, once again, left out Essos, which has already experienced huge structural changes, for the better.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

For me it really depends on how you look at it really. I mean for instance we don't know the interactions between Rhaegar and Elia but I highly doubt he did not care for Elia it literally makes NO sense. I am certain he assumed she would be ok because she was on Dragonstone I mean I am open to miscommunication starting war or leading to a war. This has happened in history before and Robert's Rebellion could've been that.

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

For me it really depends on how you look at it really. I mean for instance we don't know the interactions between Rhaegar and Elia but I highly doubt he did not care for Elia it literally makes NO sense. I am certain he assumed she would be ok because she was on Dragonstone I mean I am open to miscommunication starting war or leading to a war. This has happened in history before and Robert's Rebellion could've been that.

All very likely--though I'd also argue that Martin gave us a potential parallel for this situation in the combo of Stannis, Selyse, and Mel.

We know Elia knew about Rhaegar's Cult of the Three-Headed Dragon--Dany clearly hears him talk about it and Elia makes no protest.

So, Rhaegar and Stannis both believe they are called to greater things. Both have targaryen blood. Rhaegar really seems like he was all in for deposing his father and taking his role. And for fulfilling prophecy. Same with Stannis. 

And Selyse seems as much if not more of a true believer than Stannis. So, Elia might have been a true believer.

But the Mel figure gives me pause--Stannis and Selyse trust their inner circle: themselves, Davos (Stannis' most loyal knight) and Mel--the magical woman Selyse knew and trusted before Stannis did.

Rhaegar's got Elia and Arthur Dayne--but Lyanna? She's NOT part of that inner circle the way Mel or anyone else is. No indication she knew Elia beforehand.

And Martin's given us examples of Starks tied to Lyanna and how they react to this kind of "destiny" cult--

• Jon's reaction to Mance? Kinda likes him. Falls for his follower (Ygritte), but returns to his brothers. Not a true believer by any means.
• Jon's reaction to Stannis and Mel? Lots of horror and frustration--Jon, Lyanna's very likely son, is clearly not a cultist.
• Arya's reaction to Beric (with his Dayne-like imagery) and Thoros (tied to Mel's Red God)? She goes along with it--but she's a hostage. And gets away when she sees them as not serving her needs.
• Arya runs to a cult--the House of Black and White--but she's no true believer, not with Needle safely hidden away.

No--Elia I can buy as a true believer--Martin's shown us how that can work.

But Lyanna the Stark Maid being all in for any of this? Martin's given us a lot of reason to doubt that.