Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Howdyphillip

Full frontal Star Wars - D&D Strike Back

140 posts in this topic

I don’t know that this is the place to have the discussion, but when you look at overall representation of directors in Hollywood during the active lifetime of Star Wars, what do you think the percentage of women would be?

Is it as high as 2%?

Going back even 20 years ago to the prequel era would it have cracked even 1%?

So call me naive, but no... I don’t think the directors were chosen because they are old white men.  I think they were chosen because the percentage of the overall pool of candidates practically demands that’s what they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, divica said:

When the color of people's skin is a factor in interesting people who should be hired to do a job then there is something wrong...

I am not acusing you of anything, but it is one thing that you should pay atention.

Here is where this argument falls down, it isn't necessarily the color of their skin or their gender, but rather the unique perspective that it gives. The fact of the matter is that the experiences that white people and black people have is quite different, the same with a man vs a woman. You're trying to turn it around as a racism thing, when actually it is about giving a voice and platform for those differing perspectives, because let's face it, 90% of the popular science fiction that makes it to screen, is by white dudes. Not necessarily by some nefarious plot, but it certainly does lead to a narrow, eurocentric perspective of what science fiction is.

Edited by GrimTuesday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Here is where this argument falls down, it isn't necessarily the color of their skin or their gender, but rather the unique perspective that it gives. The fact of the matter is that the experiences that white people and black people have is quite different, the same with a man vs a woman. You're trying to turn it around as a racism thing, when actually it is about giving a voice and platform for those differing perspectives, because let's face it, 90% of the popular science fiction that makes it to screen, is by white dudes. Not necessarily by some nefarious plot, but it certainly does lead to a narrow, eurocentric perspective of what science fiction is.

I simply don t agree.

The perspective depends on the environment a person was raised. There are certainly black people that think as the stereotype white man and vice versa. If you are looking for diversity you can t look simply to the color of a person. The important thing is the culture in which they were raised.

Otherwise you are judging people by their looks intead of who they are and THAT is always wrong!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I don’t know that this is the place to have the discussion, but when you look at overall representation of directors in Hollywood during the active lifetime of Star Wars, what do you think the percentage of women would be?

Is it as high as 2%?

Going back even 20 years ago to the prequel era would it have cracked even 1%?

In 1998, 9% of the top 250 grossing films were directed by women, according to this PDF from Celluloid Ceiling. In 2000, it was 11%. 2016, 7%. 2017, again 11%. There are also figures for top 100 grossing films over a wider time frame. 

13 minutes ago, Rhom said:

So call me naive, but no... I don’t think the directors were chosen because they are old white men.  I think they were chosen because the percentage of the overall pool of candidates practically demands that’s what they are.

This is true, and I don’t find much value to trying to act as if it’s bizzare that Lucas directed 4 of the 6 films he produced, given his role as creator of the franchise.

 

 Better to look at what Lucasfilms has done post-Lucas, and to be sure it has all been white men —7 directors or directing pairs attached to five films. Statistically, we’re soon due for a female director, based on the data above. And there is definitely at least one really experienced director out there with action, adventure, and SF under their belt: Kathryn Bigelow. Whether she’d be willing, I don’t know, but have to imagine Lucasfilm has sniffed around.

FWIW, Marvel has a far worse record over far more films. Which tells me Disney doesn’t really care that much about optics, at least not until very recently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mormont said:

Is it your contention that the colour of people's skin has not been an issue in why every single director of a Star Wars film to date has been a white man? That's just a coincidence? 

Like I said, I've suggested some names of people who would be interesting and who don't happen to be white men. At no point have I said that they should be hired purely because they are not white men, or that white men should not be hired. Widening the conversation to include people who have historically been excluded is the opposite of racism. If you find yourself reacting to the inclusion of those names in a conversation by getting all het up about how the white men are being discriminated against, then you need to ask yourself some searching questions. 

I think that the whole conversation is fundamentaly wrong.

If you said that the directors were chosen because they are white ot that there are better qualified black men for the job I would completly agree.

The problem is that it isn t what you are saying. You are saying that among equally skilled people the histocally descriminated should be chosen because previously all directors were white. THAT is simply wrong for me. You should chose the directors based on their qualifications and not their skin or gender. If white men are always the right choice then they should be hired and people shouldn t raise problems.

It is like the oscars. People crticize tha there weren t black people nominated but very few people said that a black person should be nominated because he/she performed better than one of the nominees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ran said:

This is true, and I don’t find much value to trying to act as if it’s bizzare that Lucas directed 4 of the 6 films he produced, given his role as creator of the franchise.

Is anybody doing that, though?

51 minutes ago, divica said:

I think that the whole conversation is fundamentaly wrong.

If you said that the directors were chosen because they are white ot that there are better qualified black men for the job I would completly agree.

The problem is that it isn t what you are saying. You are saying that among equally skilled people the histocally descriminated should be chosen because previously all directors were white.

Am I? Where did I say that?

I said that the conversation should be widened to include those people, and you have interpreted that to mean something else. Your interpretation of my remarks reveals your biases. You see any call to consider wider representation as a call to exclude white men. That is telling. You also say that you 'would' completely agree 'if' I said that there are better qualified black men for the job. Well, that's exactly what I did say. For some reason you missed that and went straight to reading my comment as 'white men are bad'. 

Put it this way: I presented a list of alternative candidates that happened not to include any white men and you get mad about exclusing white men. Had I instead presented a list of alternative candidate to Dan and Dave that had consisted entirely of white male candidates, I doubt you would have even blinked. I doubt you'd even have noticed. You're alert to the absence of white men and oblivious to the absence of others.

51 minutes ago, divica said:

THAT is simply wrong for me. You should chose the directors based on their qualifications and not their skin or gender.

But in the history of film, this has never happened. If it had, we wouldn't be having this conversation. White men have got jobs and continue to get jobs because they are white men. Their skin and their gender play in their favour. Same with the Oscar nominees. Better performances are being ignored because they are not by white men. That is the entire argument of the recent campaigns to improve representation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Christopher Nolan and Joss Wheadon are the only directors I would be excited about,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really have no strong feelings about directors honestly.  I couldn't tell you who directed most of the movies I go to see.  :dunno: 

The one thing I do think Star Wars needs desperately is some sort of overall "Franchise Czar."  Maybe that's supposed to be Kathleen Kennedy, but if so... she needs someone else to do it.  

When I found out that Rian Johnson was able to come up with whatever answers he wanted to the questions put forth in TFA and (even worse) that JJ Abrams could theoretically just overturn them entirely for Episode IX; I was stunned.  :stunned: 

I just sort of assumed that there was at the very least a rough outline for the three movies; and learning that there wasn't was a huge disappointment.

I've been playing South Park: The Fractured But Whole lately where the kids are coming up with their own competing superhero franchises and I honestly feel like Cartman has more thought put into the development of Coon and Friends than Disney has for Star Wars.  :( 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, mormont said:

Put it this way: I presented a list of alternative candidates that happened not to include any white men and you get mad about exclusing white men. Had I instead presented a list of alternative candidate to Dan and Dave that had consisted entirely of white male candidates, I doubt you would have even blinked. I doubt you'd even have noticed. You're alert to the absence of white men and oblivious to the absence of others.

But in the history of film, this has never happened. If it had, we wouldn't be having this conversation. White men have got jobs and continue to get jobs because they are white men. Their skin and their gender play in their favour. Same with the Oscar nominees. Better performances are being ignored because they are not by white men. That is the entire argument of the recent campaigns to improve representation. 

You pointed out the existence of directors who are female and/or people of color. I supported their legitimacy as directors. For this - suddenly accusations of racism and identity politics (lol, friend) come out of the woodwork.

Acknowledging the existence of women and people of color - that was the triggering episode for these folks. That should be sobering. White men do not like to reminded that women and minorities also exist (and should be treated like people).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I really have no strong feelings about directors honestly.  I couldn't tell you who directed most of the movies I go to see.  :dunno: 

The one thing I do think Star Wars needs desperately is some sort of overall "Franchise Czar."  Maybe that's supposed to be Kathleen Kennedy, but if so... she needs someone else to do it.  

When I found out that Rian Johnson was able to come up with whatever answers he wanted to the questions put forth in TFA and (even worse) that JJ Abrams could theoretically just overturn them entirely for Episode IX; I was stunned.  :stunned: 

I just sort of assumed that there was at the very least a rough outline for the three movies; and learning that there wasn't was a huge disappointment.

I've been playing South Park: The Fractured But Whole lately where the kids are coming up with their own competing superhero franchises and I honestly feel like Cartman has more thought put into the development of Coon and Friends than Disney has for Star Wars.  :( 

Well there is a "story group" which does make sure there is continuity between, films, books, games, & comic books, but for whatever reason their job does not extend to having a say in what each individual director/writer does to their own work. I think the only thing Kennedy is controlling is to make sure each film had the right "feel" of Star Wars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Week said:

You pointed out the existence of directors who are female and/or people of color. I supported their legitimacy as directors. For this - suddenly accusations of racism and identity politics (lol, friend) come out of the woodwork.

Acknowledging the existence of women and people of color - that was the triggering episode for these folks. That should be sobering. White men do not like to reminded that women and minorities also exist (and should be treated like people).

Think you misunderstand. I'm not going to try and put words in divica's mouth, and he/she can correct me if I am wrong, but let me offer an explanation. Seems like he confused you and mormont with the folks who are up in arms with D&D being hired because they are white. Few people care if a woman or a poc gets hired to direct/produce/whatever a Star Wars film. I certainly couldn't care less. What I and many other people do want to confront is the people have problems because a Caucasian male was hired, which is simply absurd. Because, yes, there are people who do only care about skin colour. They do exist.

For example:

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/02/06/star-wars-game-of-thrones-david-benioff-db-weiss-twitter/

http://variety.com/2018/film/columns/star-wars-film-universe-game-of-thrones-weiss-benioff-white-creators-1202689891/

But you are clearly not these same sort of people, so the argument is somewhat pointless. Seems like there is a lot of generalization and misunderstanding in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sun Worshipper said:

Few people care if a woman or a poc gets hired to direct/produce/whatever a Star Wars film. I certainly couldn't care less.

Disappointing that you couldn't care less. Many people see that a small, homogeneous group is going to produce fewer interesting stories, styles, etc. -- For example. people want to see the stories move beyond established characters and the jedi.

Ignoring that people want more diversity (race, gender, age, etc.) in directors in order to get diversity in perspective, story, and style -- in order to focus on the 'marginalization' of white men is a straw man that has been well trod upon in the past. Skin color is an easy crutch.

Personally, I've begun to watch more and more international movies -- Korean, Iranian, French, Dutch, etc. which have led me to a lot of really fascinating movies. Not all of them are exceptional, mind you, but the range of stories and styles is exceptional and sorely missed in American cinema - IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Week said:

Disappointing that you couldn't care less. Many people see that a small, homogeneous group is going to produce fewer interesting stories, styles, etc. -- For example. people want to see the stories move beyond established characters and the jedi.

Ignoring that people want more diversity (race, gender, age, etc.) in directors in order to get diversity in perspective, story, and style -- in order to focus on the 'marginalization' of white men is a straw man that has been well trod upon in the past. Skin color is an easy crutch.

Personally, I've begun to watch more and more international movies -- Korean, Iranian, French, Dutch, etc. which have led me to a lot of really fascinating movies. Not all of them are exceptional, mind you, but the range of stories and styles is exceptional and sorely missed in American cinema - IMO.

"I couldn't care less" as in my expectations, concerns, and hopes for a film would not change based on the ethnic heritage of the director.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Sun Worshipper said:

"I couldn't care less" as in my expectations, concerns, and hopes for a film would not change based on the ethnic heritage of the director.

Understood - though it seems odd to not recognize something like this:

https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/with-black-panther-we-have-a-black-movie-and-a-black-mo-1822871952

"Largely though, it’s good to have a movie, especially one with as big a budget and as much commercial appeal as Black Panther, get the black-movie-soundtrack treatment. It’s a good day to be black and sexy."

Were Black Panther to be directed by Bryan Singer, D&D, etc. it's hard to imagine the same development and reception. That is something that should impact everyone potentially interested in the film. I'll grant, this one may be a bit of cherry picking based on the history and subject matter of the comic. That said, I'd say the same for A Wrinkle in Time.

Also, just pointing out that you do care when "people" have "problems' because a "causcasian male" was hired, but couldn't care less if a minority/female director is hired. This difference in attention supports the feedback loop of supporting the hiring of white men -- any controversy that mentions their "whiteness" is unacceptable and should be CONFRONTED, meanwhile amplifying minority/women is ho-hum (supposedly). :blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just learned that 'divisive' means 'a small subset of curmudgeons rant against it'.

This forum never disappoints.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Week said:

Understood - though it seems odd to not recognize something like this:

https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/with-black-panther-we-have-a-black-movie-and-a-black-mo-1822871952

"Largely though, it’s good to have a movie, especially one with as big a budget and as much commercial appeal as Black Panther, get the black-movie-soundtrack treatment. It’s a good day to be black and sexy."

Were Black Panther to be directed by Bryan Singer, D&D, etc. it's hard to imagine the same development and reception. That is something that should impact everyone potentially interested in the film. I'll grant, this one may be a bit of cherry picking based on the history and subject matter of the comic. That said, I'd say the same for A Wrinkle in Time.

Also, just pointing out that you do care when "people" have "problems' because a "causcasian male" was hired, but couldn't care less if a minority/female director is hired. This difference in attention supports the feedback loop of supporting the hiring of white men -- any controversy that mentions their "whiteness" is unacceptable and should be CONFRONTED, meanwhile amplifying minority/women is ho-hum (supposedly). :blink:

I don't think I was perhaps very clear. If a minority/female director was hired, I would have no opposition to it. That's what I meant by I couldn't care--be it a female, a male, a Caucasian, a minority, I would have the same reaction. These factors don't carry much significance to me personally.

I am confronting this current topic (people upset or frustrated that D&D – more white guys – are being hired) simply because it is the current issue, and I believe it is absurd to have a problem with D&D’s race. If a minority or a woman is hired next week to helm a whole new trilogy, that is just as swell, and I would also take issue with those who have a problem with that directors gender or race as well.

Additionally, I can't speak much to Black Panther as I know virtually nothing about it - I'm not much of a superhero movie guy and all I know about it is from YouTube video titles I happened to glance at whilst browsing. I'm not much help in  a Black Panther discussion unfortunately haha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sun Worshipper said:

I am confronting this current topic (people upset or frustrated that D&D – more white guys – are being hired) simply because it is the current issue, and I believe it is absurd to have a problem with D&D’s race. If a minority or a woman is hired next week to helm a whole new trilogy, that is just as swell, and I would also take issue with those who have a problem with that directors gender or race as well.

That seems like missing the point - commentary on their race and gender is to highlight age-old and ongoing inequities which are the problems to be considered and addressed. D&D, or whomever else, are beneficiaries of those inequities and not victims in that discussion. Painting them as victims -- which may not be your intention but that is what is happening -- is wholly inappropriate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0