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Could Jorah had been apart of the plot to poison Daenarys?


Varysblackfyre321

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First, something must be made clear; there was most likely no plot to poison Daenarys.

This idea has been kicked around before nevertheless I'll try my own hand at making a case for it.

Likely if there was Varys would have hired a professional; the wine seller when he was caught tried to flee-a professsional would have recognized the situation and ended his life quickly.

If the wine seller was the one to poison it he'd doubtless know the cure to counter act it.

And the guy is coming from penthos. 

It was most likely a stunt meant to get Khal Drogo angry enough to do something the Dothroki had never done before; cross the ocean; to get to the sunset kingdoms.

Honestly, Varys and Illaryio wanted the dothraki invasion for years now; they're not going to needlessly toss it aside with what had been a major factor in their overall plan to place Aegon on the throne. The mere appearance of trying to kill Daenarys would have been enough to keep Robert from taking Varys' head. 

Everyone knew it was risky so of course Robert couldn't punish a man for failing at it.

So back to Jorah I don't think Illaryio or Varys leave anything to chance to which they do not have to; every step they've taken in this plan they've been careful and as meticulous as they can.

If Jorah hadn't saw or recognized the attempt Daenarys drinks it the whole plan goes caput. Obviously not getting sick because again Varys and Illaryio not leaving it up to chance would have never really poisoned the wine in the first place-I mean what if Daenarys took the wine and shared it with Drogo? If it is poisoned doubtless it'd be one that produces symptoms that would come about hours if not days after the meeting and then it may be mistaken as purely an infection. So yes she has plenty of time to share the drink with her beloved husband and brother.Someone had postulated a caravan captain likely would have been the one to step in if Jorah didn't-but I respectfully disagree.

Jorah is the best canindate for the one to save Daenarys-I mean he's known her for quite some time, whatever answer he'd give wouldn't create suspicion and he'd get in good with Drogo and Daenarys and would be able to stick around should Viserys piss off the dothraki to the point where they kill him; I mean if he didn't defend her brother with the adedge of having saved the Khaleshi's life one might suspect him of merely being a coward and even Daenarys may not trust him for having foreshaken her brother.

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Well, obviously they don't want her to get poisoned.  They wanted to send someone to make an attempt on her life but they set him up to fail.  They want Drogo mad enough to attack.  They never counted on Drogo getting killed by a witch.  They never counted on Daenerys hatching her petrified dragon eggs either.  The hatching of the dragon eggs automatically made Daenerys the most important person in the whole world and puts her claim ahead of any other claim. 

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Jorah wanted to look like a hero to Daenerys so I wouldn't be surprised if he set the whole wine thing up.  He wanted to be her brave Westerosi Knight in hopes she'd start falling for him. if Jorah thought for second that only Drogo would drink that poison wine I'd bet he'd do nothing. Wait for Drogo to die and take Dany and those dragon eggs and get out of dodge. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Jorah wanted to look like a hero to Daenerys so I wouldn't be surprised if he set the whole wine thing up.  He wanted to be her brave Westerosi Knight in hopes she'd start falling for him. if Jorah thought for second that only Drogo would drink that poison wine I'd bet he'd do nothing. Wait for Drogo to die and take Dany and those dragon eggs and get out of dodge. 

 

Meh, at this point in the story I don't get he loves her-he pities the poor girl's plight but he wouldn't try to steal her away.

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6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, at this point in the story I don't get he loves her

He may not love her but he certainly lusts after her and wants her sexually.

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

he pities the poor girl's plight but he wouldn't try to steal her away

As soon as Drogo falls from his horse Jorah tries to talk Daenerys into going with him to Asshai. That's what I meant by him taking Dany and getting as far away from where they are as possible.

After Drogo is a zombie and her babe is dead he continues to try to get her to go with him to Asshai and other places. I doubt he just wants to be her father figure.

In your opinion when does he fall in love/lust with Dany then, if he wasn't by the time he saved her from the poison wine?

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22 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

He may not love her but he certainly lusts after her and wants her sexually

Likely he lusts after her as he would any pretty girl who looks like his ex-wife.

 

24 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

As soon as Drogo falls from his horse Jorah tries to talk Daenerys into going with him to Asshai. That's what I meant by him taking Dany and getting as far away from where they are as possible.

He's under orders by the spider to keep her safe-and he knows Drogo's blood brothers are going to send her Vaes Drak to live out the rest of her life with the other widows to spend out her days which would jepordarize his worth given he'd no longer be able to you know keep an eye on her.

 

29 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

In your opinion when does he fall in love/lust with Dany then, if he wasn't by the time he saved her from the poison wine?

I think he slowly begins to feel more for the girl than just pity over time since she save those women from being raped-that got probably got his respect. The birth of the dragons got his idiolizement of her. 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's under orders by the spider to keep her safe-and he knows Drogo's blood brothers are going to send her Vaes Drak to live out the rest of her life with the other widows to spend out her days which would jepordarize his worth given he'd no longer be able to you know keep an eye on her.

Then why does he want to take her to Asshai? That doesn't sound like a very safe place at all, and its far away from Varys and Ilyrio's network of influence. If he wanted to follow Illryio and Varys orders/plans to keep her safe and under their care wouldn't he have wanted to take Dany back to Pentos? 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Likely he lusts after her as he would any pretty girl who looks like his ex-wife.

 

Exactly which is why he does everything he can to get her to become attracted to him and eventually take him as a husband. Which he later flat out suggests to her after he kisses her and she rejects him because she wasn't into it. The kissing or the idea of him as a husband.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think he slowly begins to feel more for the girl than just pity over time since she save those women from being raped-that got probably got his respect.

I guess this could have been an added reason on top of why he already wanted her. If it never happened I doubt his feelings would be any different though. Jorah was a slave trader himself, I'm sure he knew some of the people he sold into slavery were raped or even worse. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The birth of the dragons got his idiolizement of her.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think he idolized her, I'd say obsessed is a a better word for it. He still sends his reports to King's Landing without telling her after that happens. If he idolized her from that point I think he would have told her everything he'd been doing behind her back.

Then after she sends him away from Meereen because he shows no remorse for his spying he goes to a brothel and finds a girl that looks like Dany to sleep with. I doubt he idolized that girl either.

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I guess this could have been an added reason on top of why he already wanted her. If it never happened I doubt his feelings would be any different though. Jorah was a slave trader himself, I'm sure he knew some of the people he sold into slavery were raped or even worse. 

The people he'd sold were poachers on his land; not to say it was justified but I can see a sort of perverse version to why he'd be justified in doing this to garner the money he needed to provide for the lavish lifestyle of his wife. Jorah is...flawed. He's not evil persey but he does a lot what could be said as immoral things but he's not a totally a monster-I mean he'd brought Penny along at the behest of Tyrion's begging and he shows he recognized how his behavior to accommodate his lavish lifestyle hurt his family and regrets it.  Not to say he's especially "good". He can be very much a dick.The act is both a showing of kindness and that of power. Is it critical to his development of infatuation with her; eh likely no but it's a start where he'd see Daenarys less as a victim.

 

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I

He  planned to take her there and take a ship back to penthos. I mean he still wants to go home and Varys is key to that.

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:
2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I don't think he idolized her, I'd say obsessed is a a better word for it. He still sends his reports to King's Landing without telling her after that happens. If he idolized her from that point I think he would have told her everything he'd been doing behind her back.

Then after she sends him away from Meereen because he shows no remorse for his spying he goes to a brothel and finds a girl that looks like Dany to sleep with. I doubt he idolized that girl either.

Meh, you say tomato I say tomatoe. Idiolizing her simply means he starts to see her as an idiol-a perfect woman. woman and yes you'd be right to say he's obsessed with her. Even the best of us don't want to dissapoint our idiols who ever they may be; if he told Daenarys she may hate him-he'd either cast him out or kill him-in any case he wouldn't be able to go home and lose the light in his life.

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He  planned to take her there and take a ship back to penthos. I mean he still wants to go home and Varys is key to that.

Except after Drogo and the babe are dead Jorah doesn't seem to keen on going back to Pentos and doesn't mention it again. He wants her to leave with him and start a life together and sell the dragon eggs. He never mentions Illyrio or returning home to Bear Island.

"My...queen," Ser Jorah said, going to one knee."My sword that was his is yours, Daenerys. And my heart as well, that never belonged to your brother. I am only a knight, and I have nothing to offer you but exile, but I beg you, hear me. Let Khal Drogo go. You shall not be alone. I promise you, no man shall take you to Vaes Dothrak unless you wish to go. You need not join the dosh khaleen. Come east with me. Yi Ti Quarth, the Jade Sea, Asshia by the Shadow. We will see all the wonders yet unseen, and drink what wines the gods see fit to serve us. Please, Khaleesi. I know what you intend. Do not. Do not.

He basically proposes to her in hopes of them living in exile together like he did with Lynesse. No wonder why she took her chances in the funeral pyre. 

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, you say tomato I say tomatoe. Idiolizing her simply means he starts to see her as an idiol-a perfect woman. woman and yes you'd be right to say he's obsessed with her. Even the best of us don't want to dissapoint our idiols who ever they may be; if he told Daenarys she may hate him-he'd either cast him out or kill him-in any case he wouldn't be able to go home and lose the light in his life.

And that's his problem, he's so obsessed with her he doesn't treat her as he should. As his Queen. Lying to a Queen is treason and to continue to keep lying to her shows he has no real respect for her rule, in my opinion.

Honestly, I think he figured he'd keep lying to her until he could bed her, for if she knew what he was doing she'd never trust him enough to even consider letting him in her bed. Had he truly been thinking with his heart instead of his member then he would have confessed his treason after she birthed her dragons. She seemed to be in a forgiving mood at the time, yet he still sends reports behind her back after she birthed the dragons.

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I thnk Jorah had three gos at Dany and one at Viserys.

Before the wineseller thing, where he demonstrated to Dany that he would protect her from threats, the caravans came in from the west to Vaes Dothrak, and he went straight to them when they arrived to check his mail. He kept that to himself, but he had this conversation with Dany when he returned:

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“Where is my brother?” Dany asked. “He ought to have come by now, for the feast.”
“I saw His Grace this morning,” he told her. “He told me he was going to the Western Market, in search of wine.”
“Wine?” Dany said doubtfully. ..
“Wine,” Ser Jorah confirmed, “and he has some thought to recruit men for his army from the sellswords who guard the caravans.” A serving girl laid a blood pie in front of him, and he attacked it with both hands.
“Is that wise?” she asked. “He has no gold to pay soldiers. What if he’s betrayed?” Caravan guards were seldom troubled much by thoughts of honor, and the Usurper in King’s Landing would pay well for her brother’s head. “You ought to have gone with him, to keep him safe. You are his sworn sword.”
“We are in Vaes Dothrak,” he reminded her. “No one may carry a blade here or shed a man’s blood.”

“Yet men die,” she said. “Jhogo told me. Some of the traders have eunuchs with them, huge men who strangle thieves with wisps of silk. That way no blood is shed and the gods are not angered.”
“Then let us hope your brother will be wise enough not to steal anything.” Ser Jorah wiped the grease off his mouth with the back of his hand and leaned close over the table. “He had planned to take your dragon’s eggs, until I warned him that I’d cut off his hand if he so much as touched them.”

(AGoT, Ch.46 Daenerys V)

Thing is, Viserys shows no interest in Dany's dragon eggs (although he is obsessed with his army). The person who is keeping his eye on the eggs and knows how much money they are worth and wants them to go with him to Asshai and keep him and his new squeeze in money is...Jorah.

Viserys doesn't know any sellswords at the Western Market. The person who could introduce him to sellswords is...Jorah. Who knows it is death to show a blade in Vaes Dothrak, and also that there is a price on Viserys' head. And also that when you get Viserys good and soused, he will act recklessly.

As Dany has noted, as his sworn man, Jorah should be protecting her brother while he is out drinking with sellswords. It would be too easy to mention that Dany was giving the Khal the Stallion that Mounts the World, and so the Khal will be in no hurry to move, and by the way just one of those eggs...too easy, too, to cover his role with a small self-serving lie when he raises the matter with her in a way that would set her against her brother,

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He does not need to steal them. He had only to ask. He is my brother … and my true king.”
“He is your brother,” Ser Jorah acknowledged.

So much for the king he swore to protect. And there is no doubt he is trying to get between the brother and his sister

Quote

He was the only one left. The only one. He is all I have.”
“Once,” said Ser Jorah. “No longer, Khaleesi. You belong to the Dothraki now.

While he builds on her importance to the Dothraki, Viserys is making his way back to Dany, having meditated on who she is and who he is and the army he should have got for her. He has also found a longsword somewhere.

Quote

“Where is my sister?” Viserys shouted, his voice thick with wine. “I’ve come for her feast. How dare you presume to eat without me? No one eats before the king...

Dany tells Ser Jorah to settle him, tell him he can have the eggs, but we don't actually know what Jorah is saying - except that it doesn't calm Viserys down.

Quote

Ser Jorah went to him swiftly, whispered something in his ear, and took him by the arm, but Viserys wrenched free. “Keep your hands off me! No one touches the dragon without leave.”

Viserys addresses Drogo, who predictably insults him

Quote

“That is no place for a king,” her brother declared.
“Is place,” Khal Drogo answered, in the Common Tongue that Dany had taught him, “for Sorefoot King.”

But Ser Jorah is at hand

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Ser Jorah was standing beside Viserys, screaming in his ear, but the roar in the hall was so thunderous that Dany could not hear what he was saying. Her brother shouted back and the two men grappled, until Mormont knocked Viserys bodily to the floor.
Her brother drew his sword.

Dany choses to see Jorah as 'her devoted bear' , and interprets this as Mormont attempting to forestall her brother. However we can clearly see, Mormont was the proximal cause for her brother drawing his sword.

Viserys' belief that he could draw a blade but they could not, the slavers notion that Daenarys was bought but not paid for, the discovery that the only warriors he can get at Vaes Dothrak are the ones that promised him...Jorah could have set all that up.

The manicore - someone in Qarth paid the Sorry man for that.

Quote

“Pay him before he kills himself,” Dany told Ser Jorah, wondering what she was going to do with a huge brass platter. She turned back as he reached for his coins,

and then, Jorah didn't seem to identify the threat, and pushed Dany towards the manitcore after Arstan had knocked it from her hand

Quote

Ser Jorah slammed past her, and Dany stumbled to one knee. She heard the hiss again. The old man drove the butt of his staff into the ground, ... Ser Jorah slammed the eunuch over the head with the brass platter,

while this could be put down to Jorah believing that the threat was Belwas and Arstan and not knowing about the sorry man, it could also be that Jorah was well aware of the manticore, and had paid good money for it.

I'm thinking he might have received a goodly sum from Illyrio to look after the King of Westeros, enough to pay for a sorry man. He certainly doesn't want to go back and face Illyrio. That could be the reason they go to slavers bay for an army. He certainly talks up the demon road (careful not to call it that) - 'it will take longer' but apparently the risks will be 'different, but not greater' than the risk of pirates, storms, and being pulled under by krackens, if they were at sea. Yeah, I think he knows what a load that is.

Then there is Mero. Jorah didn't see any need to alarm Dany with the news that he had escaped. Not Dany, and not the unsullied. He claimed he had offered a reward - I think Dany's freedmen would have killed Mero for free, if they had known what he looked like, and what he planned to do. As it happened, the only person who really knew what Mero looked like was his old mate Jorah. Again, Jorah was not around when the assassination attempt happened. But, note his reaction when he hears that Mero attempted to murder his Queen, the woman he adores.

Quote

"Mero has been with us all the way from Yunkai. He shaved his beard off and lost himself amongst the freedmen, waiting for a chance for vengeance. Arstan killed him.”
Ser Jorah gave the old man a long look. “A squire with a stick slew Mero of Braavos, is that the way of it?”

(ASoS,Ch.57 Daenerys V)

This is a cold man.

This is a slaver.

This is a Lord that felt entitled to the wives and daughters of his leiges, and that his first wife was only doing her duty when she died in childbirth. 

His second wife was a trophy, and an excuse for his determination to lead an expensive life he couldn't afford. He abandoned her in Lys, and came back without the means to pay for the debt-bondage she was in. He fled the city rather than go into debt bondage himself, called the situation she was in 'infidelity', thereby freeing himself from any responsibility for paying out those debts and getting his wife back.

Then he meets Daenerys. She started out as strictly business. He regards her as a little fool. He was making money from Varys as a spy, and from the Magisters of Pentos by ensuring the Dothraki kept the peace, he was probably getting paid by Illyrio to guard Viserys, whom he betrayed. I don't think Jorah ever met a woman he couldn't sell, for a good price.

I'm thinking he could even be the three treasons: One for blood - the attempt to have her killed by Viserys (Robert wanted blood), One for gold - (Xaro would pay for dragons) and One for love (of his mate Mero), something like that.

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13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

And that's his problem, he's so obsessed with her he doesn't treat her as he should. As his Queen. Lying to a Queen is treason and to continue to keep lying to her shows he has no real respect for her rule, in my opinion.

Honestly, I think he figured he'd keep lying to her until he could bed her, for if she knew what he was doing she'd never trust him enough to even consider letting him in her bed. Had he truly been thinking with his heart instead of his member then he would have confessed his treason after she birthed her dragons. She seemed to be in a forgiving mood at the time, yet he still sends reports behind her back after she birthed the dragons.

Is it treason? I'm seriously asking here I thought that was just something Robert told Arya to scare her.

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11 hours ago, Walda said:

I thnk Jorah had three gos at Dany and one at Viserys.

Before the wineseller thing, where he demonstrated to Dany that he would protect her from threats, the caravans came in from the west to Vaes Dothrak, and he went straight to them when they arrived to check his mail. He kept that to himself, but he had this conversation with Dany when he returned:

(AGoT, Ch.46 Daenerys V)

Thing is, Viserys shows no interest in Dany's dragon eggs (although he is obsessed with his army). The person who is keeping his eye on the eggs and knows how much money they are worth and wants them to go with him to Asshai and keep him and his new squeeze in money is...Jorah.

Viserys doesn't know any sellswords at the Western Market. The person who could introduce him to sellswords is...Jorah. Who knows it is death to show a blade in Vaes Dothrak, and also that there is a price on Viserys' head. And also that when you get Viserys good and soused, he will act recklessly.

As Dany has noted, as his sworn man, Jorah should be protecting her brother while he is out drinking with sellswords. It would be too easy to mention that Dany was giving the Khal the Stallion that Mounts the World, and so the Khal will be in no hurry to move, and by the way just one of those eggs...too easy, too, to cover his role with a small self-serving lie when he raises the matter with her in a way that would set her against her brother,

So much for the king he swore to protect. And there is no doubt he is trying to get between the brother and his sister

While he builds on her importance to the Dothraki, Viserys is making his way back to Dany, having meditated on who she is and who he is and the army he should have got for her. He has also found a longsword somewhere.

Dany tells Ser Jorah to settle him, tell him he can have the eggs, but we don't actually know what Jorah is saying - except that it doesn't calm Viserys down.

Viserys addresses Drogo, who predictably insults him

But Ser Jorah is at hand

Dany choses to see Jorah as 'her devoted bear' , and interprets this as Mormont attempting to forestall her brother. However we can clearly see, Mormont was the proximal cause for her brother drawing his sword.

Viserys' belief that he could draw a blade but they could not, the slavers notion that Daenarys was bought but not paid for, the discovery that the only warriors he can get at Vaes Dothrak are the ones that promised him...Jorah could have set all that up.

The manicore - someone in Qarth paid the Sorry man for that.

and then, Jorah didn't seem to identify the threat, and pushed Dany towards the manitcore after Arstan had knocked it from her hand

while this could be put down to Jorah believing that the threat was Belwas and Arstan and not knowing about the sorry man, it could also be that Jorah was well aware of the manticore, and had paid good money for it.

I'm thinking he might have received a goodly sum from Illyrio to look after the King of Westeros, enough to pay for a sorry man. He certainly doesn't want to go back and face Illyrio. That could be the reason they go to slavers bay for an army. He certainly talks up the demon road (careful not to call it that) - 'it will take longer' but apparently the risks will be 'different, but not greater' than the risk of pirates, storms, and being pulled under by krackens, if they were at sea. Yeah, I think he knows what a load that is.

Then there is Mero. Jorah didn't see any need to alarm Dany with the news that he had escaped. Not Dany, and not the unsullied. He claimed he had offered a reward - I think Dany's freedmen would have killed Mero for free, if they had known what he looked like, and what he planned to do. As it happened, the only person who really knew what Mero looked like was his old mate Jorah. Again, Jorah was not around when the assassination attempt happened. But, note his reaction when he hears that Mero attempted to murder his Queen, the woman he adores.

(ASoS,Ch.57 Daenerys V)

This is a cold man.

This is a slaver.

This is a Lord that felt entitled to the wives and daughters of his leiges, and that his first wife was only doing her duty when she died in childbirth. 

His second wife was a trophy, and an excuse for his determination to lead an expensive life he couldn't afford. He abandoned her in Lys, and came back without the means to pay for the debt-bondage she was in. He fled the city rather than go into debt bondage himself, called the situation she was in 'infidelity', thereby freeing himself from any responsibility for paying out those debts and getting his wife back.

Then he meets Daenerys. She started out as strictly business. He regards her as a little fool. He was making money from Varys as a spy, and from the Magisters of Pentos by ensuring the Dothraki kept the peace, he was probably getting paid by Illyrio to guard Viserys, whom he betrayed. I don't think Jorah ever met a woman he couldn't sell, for a good price.

I'm thinking he could even be the three treasons: One for blood - the attempt to have her killed by Viserys (Robert wanted blood), One for gold - (Xaro would pay for dragons) and One for love (of his mate Mero), something like that.

But why intentionally get rid of Viserys and yet keep Drogo around if he wanted to get in Dany's pants? I mean you can't really go far with a Khaleshi without the expressed approval of the Khal she's  partnered with. And Mero is there any hint of Jorah having even ever spoken to guy before the siege on Mereen.

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