Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Kalbear

The Last Jedi (spoilers): Failure is a great teacher

46 posts in this topic

There was a lot of talk about TLJ 'failing' and Rian Johnson being a pox on the franchise. Let's put that a bit to rest, shall we?

TLJ is one of the top 12 grossing movies worldwide, ever. Despite being released at the end of December, it became the #1 grossing movie in 2017. In fact, as of Jan 30th, it is the 9th biggest gross of all time. What it didn't do is meet analyst expectations, largely due to failing big in China. It was about $200m off. 

It also earned about $300m more than Rogue One. But let's not compare it to the failure of, say, Justice League. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

There was a lot of talk about TLJ 'failing' and Rian Johnson being a pox on the franchise. Let's put that a bit to rest, shall we?

TLJ is one of the top 12 grossing movies worldwide, ever. Despite being released at the end of December, it became the #1 grossing movie in 2017. In fact, as of Jan 30th, it is the 9th biggest gross of all time. What it didn't do is meet analyst expectations, largely due to failing big in China. It was about $200m off. 

It also earned about $300m more than Rogue One. But let's not compare it to the failure of, say, Justice League. 

It is undeniable it earned a lot of Money. The points I was arguing yeasterday are:

In most of the recent trilogies the second movie earns more money than  the first. And you have examples like hunger games, transformers, lord of the rings, dark knight, thor, star trek, pirates of the carabeans where this happened... The hobbit's second movie gross profit was very close to the profit of the first movie (less than 100k diference)... The fact that TLJ earned less one third (nearly 700K) than TFA IS NOT NORMAL.

Then there is the fact that a considerable amount of people not only disliked the movie, they hated it. I think that either rotten tomatoes or imdb is proof of this. You would be hard pressed to find  good movie in imdb where 6.2% of the people gave it score 1 or 19% of the people gave it a score equal or lower than 5. We are talking about a fifth of the people hating the movie... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, divica said:

In most of the recent trilogies the second movie earns more money than  the first. And you have examples like hunger games, transformers, lord of the rings, dark knight, thor, star trek, pirates of the carabeans where this happened... The hobbit's second movie gross profit was very close to the profit of the first movie (less than 100k diference)... The fact that TLJ earned less one third (nearly 700K) than TFA IS NOT NORMAL.

None of these examples -- particularly the carabeans -- are particularly relevant. (eta -- all $$ were domestic because it was easier)

LOTR: Each made 1/2 to 2/3 of TLJ and TFA -- the trilogy made more money after each subsequent movie

Hunger Games (Quadrilogy): First two made 1/2 to 2/3 of TLJ and TFA -- the last pair did about half and then 2/3 of that even. Still less money -- so any increase or decrease film to film makes no sense to me.

Transformers: Not a trilogy, not good, etc.

Thor: Part of Marvel -- not relevant

Star Trek: Not a trilogy, Into Darkness made less than the first and all 3 (new ones so far) have made 1/3 to 1/4 of TFA and TLJ.

Carabeans: This is as bad a part of your argument as Transformers

28 minutes ago, divica said:

Then there is the fact that a considerable amount of people not only disliked the movie, they hated it. I think that either rotten tomatoes or imdb is proof of this. You would be hard pressed to find  good movie in imdb where 6.2% of the people gave it score 1 or 19% of the people gave it a score equal or lower than 5. We are talking about a fifth of the people hating the movie... 

You pay attention to the loud trolls and the rest of us will ignore them. Capisce?

Edited by Week

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Week said:

None of these examples -- particularly the carabeans -- are particularly relevant. (eta -- all $$ were domestic because it was easier)

LOTR: Each made 1/2 to 2/3 of TLJ and TFA -- the trilogy made more money after each subsequent movie

Hunger Games (Quadrilogy): First two made 1/2 to 2/3 of TLJ and TFA -- the last pair did about half and then 2/3 of that even. Still less money -- so any increase or decrease film to film makes no sense to me.

Transformers: Not a trilogy, not good, etc.

Thor: Part of Marvel -- not relevant

Star Trek: Not a trilogy, Into Darkness made less than the first and all 3 (new ones so far) have made 1/3 to 1/4 of TFA and TLJ.

Carabeans: This is as bad a part of your argument as Transformers

You pay attention to the loud trolls and the rest of us will ignore them. Capisce?

The first 3 transformers movies weren t a trilogy? the first 3 pirates of the carabeans weren t a trilogy? The last 3 star trek movies aren t a trilogy? And you could add much more trilogies to this list

I think you are confused... 

And what does it matter how much Money these movies made in relation to star wars? That isn t the argument. The argument is that the second movies of these trilogies earned more Money than the first. The fact that the third movie sometimes earned less than the second is a source of concern for star wars...

You can t call trolls to everyone who doesn t agree with you. 20% is a big number I am not including people that scored it 6 for exemple... 48% in RT is another big number that shows a lot of people don t like the movie. It might be hard for you to understand because you liked the movie, but the amount of people that disliked the movie as much as you liked it is real... And looking at the numbers it is pretty even with the amount of people that loved the movie.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be frank, you're cherry picking your "trilogies." Or does Episode VIII tag mean something different to you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, divica said:

The first 3 transformers movies weren t a trilogy? the first 3 pirates of the carabeans weren t a trilogy? The last 3 star trek movies aren t a trilogy? And you could add much more trilogies to this list

No, none of these were. None were planned as trilogies. All were movies that if they did bad, so what. They tank, they go away. Carribean has the standard first movie is a standalone, second and third are two-parters (like the original ANH/ESB/ROTJ). Transformers isn't a trilogy in any sense of the word.

5 minutes ago, divica said:

And what does it matter how much Money these movies made in relation to star wars? That isn t the argument. The argument is that the second movies of these trilogies earned more Money than the first. The fact that the third movie sometimes earned less than the second is a source of concern for star wars...

That's typical when the first movie isn't as highly marketed and is a possible risk. 

5 minutes ago, divica said:

You can t call trolls to everyone who doesn t agree with you. 20% is a big number I am not including people that scored it 6 for exemple... 48% in RT is another big number that shows a lot of people don t like the movie. It might be hard for you to understand because you liked the movie, but the amount of people that disliked the movie as much as you liked it is real... And looking at the numbers it is pretty even with the amount of people that loved the movie.

Well, again, no. The number of people who decided to go to RT and rate it is 48%. The metacritic score is much better, as are surveys of random people who watched it. You're mistaking self-reporting for actual opinion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, divica said:

And what does it matter how much Money these movies made in relation to star wars? That isn t the argument. The argument is that the second movies of these trilogies earned more Money than the first. The fact that the third movie sometimes earned less than the second is a source of concern for star wars...

Of course it is relevant to the quality and reception of the movie. The fact is that the cherry-picked "trilogies" all made less money overall and each have different context around them that suggests they are not apples to apples. 

3 minutes ago, divica said:

You can t call trolls to everyone who doesn t agree with you. 20% is a big number I am not including people that scored it 6 for exemple... 48% in RT is another big number that shows a lot of people don t like the movie. It might be hard for you to understand because you liked the movie, but the amount of people that disliked the movie as much as you liked it is real... And looking at the numbers it is pretty even with the amount of people that loved the movie.

You take that self-selected online ranking as gospel. I'll look at actual, tangible money which suggests the movie is not as divisive as you suggest. A loud minority does not make a movie divisive (particularly with the amount of SJW-directed whining).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Week said:

Of course it is relevant to the quality and reception of the movie. The fact is that the cherry-picked "trilogies" all made less money overall and each have different context around them that suggests they are not apples to apples. 

You take that self-selected online ranking as gospel. I'll look at actual, tangible money which suggests the movie is not as divisive as you suggest. A loud minority does not make a movie divisive (particularly with the amount of SJW-directed whining).

They were recent trilogies with sucessful first movies that I remembered. If you think of other trilogies that don t follow this trend you are free to name them...

Do you want to know another interesting fact? Both TFA and TLJ earned nearly the same in their opening weekend (248M and 220M in the US) and in the end TLJ earned less 300M in the US... If people liked TLJ as much as they liked TFA this diference shouldn t be so big.

And I selected the statistics I know of. If you know other reliable statistics that aprove of the movie (not critics statistics) then go ahead and name them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Well, again, no. The number of people who decided to go to RT and rate it is 48%. The metacritic score is much better, as are surveys of random people who watched it. You're mistaking self-reporting for actual opinion. 

How is the metacritic score better? You are saying the opinion of a small number of people (which I have no idea if they have interest in the movie sucess) is better than the opinion of a bigger number of random people that watched the movie because they liked star wars...

The diference between RT, user scores, IMDB scores or random surveys is very littlle as long as we assume that all kinds of people participate in ranking movies in these sites. Which is a solid assumption.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't is shown that the RT score was heavily influenced by a small number of people who repeatedly gave it low scores? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Wasn't is shown that the RT score was heavily influenced by a small number of people who repeatedly gave it low scores? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it has an A audience ranking from Cinemascore. From audiences. Who watched the film. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Wasn't is shown that the RT score was heavily influenced by a small number of people who repeatedly gave it low scores? 

 

4 minutes ago, Week said:

 

Yeah, alt A and whatever hired hackers to downvote the movie EVERYWHERE... That is obviously true. The user reviews downgrading the movie are fake... RT responsables saying that the reviews are true are obviously lieing...

It sounds like a Disney pr scheme to make people doubt the negative critics and still go to the cinema.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well it has an A audience ranking from Cinemascore. From audiences. Who watched the film. 

 

That is a more interesting argument.

Do you know how cinemascore handles those rankings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the merchandise/toy thing, I wonder how the fall off compares to the sale of toys from R1. Also, I wonder if its just franchise fatigue or maybe not enough new characters/creatures. Although trying to find Porg stuff is still hard.

(And as long as the LEGO keep selling, I'm fine)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha DIsney PR scheme. No, I'm out of this one. In fact, I think I'll go see TLJ again tonight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Haha DIsney PR scheme. No, I'm out of this one. In fact, I think I'll go see TLJ again tonight.

Disney Deep-State actors -- I can only hope there are some EMAILS or texts to howl and salivate over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Week said:

None of these examples -- particularly the carabeans -- are particularly relevant.

Sorry for interrupting, but when I saw this typo last night it amused me, and now it's being repeated.  Are carabeans what care bears eat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Sorry for interrupting, but when I saw this typo last night it amused me, and now it's being repeated.  Are carabeans what care bears eat?

Ditto and Yes. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, divica said:

How is the metacritic score better? You are saying the opinion of a small number of people (which I have no idea if they have interest in the movie sucess) is better than the opinion of a bigger number of random people that watched the movie because they liked star wars...

I'm saying that the people who went out of their way to downvote a movie are probably not indicative of how good a movie is. 

We saw this with Ghostbusters last year as well. 

In general, if most critics like a movie chances are good it's not a pile of ass. If a movie makes 1.3bn, chances are good it's not a box office failure either. 

3 hours ago, divica said:

The diference between RT, user scores, IMDB scores or random surveys is very littlle as long as we assume that all kinds of people participate in ranking movies in these sites. Which is a solid assumption.

Except we've already seen this to be an incorrect assumption. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0