Similarities between the myths of the Shrouded Lord and the Night King

[Tagganaro]

I've searched and not sure this has been discussed in its own thread before, but I noticed this in a re-read of ADWD.  When Tyrion and the crew of the Shy Maid are sailing through the Sorrows, a lot of time is spent discussing Garin's curse, the Stone Men, and the Shrouded Lord.  Garin's curse of course, according to Tyrion, is Greyscale which further connects the Shrouded Lord and the Stone Men to the goings on at the Wall with Val and Shireen.  According to Ysilla, Garin's curse arose from Valyrian conquerors hanging Garin in a cage.  He called upon his Mother who drowned them all, creating the first Stone Men.  Here's her description of the stone men Valyrian:

Quote

"They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire.  Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts."

Cold breath of course invokes the Others.  Tyrion then asks Ysilla and Yandry whether there actually is a shrouded lord, who is the ruler of the stone men.  Yandry responds:

Quote

"The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin's day...Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave."  "The dead do not rise," insisted Haldon Halfmaester, "and no man lives a thousand years."

The dead do not rise you say Haldon?  Haldon then states that there have been numerous Shrouded Lords over the years, the most current one being a corsair from the Basilisk Islands.  Here is what really caught my attention:

Quote

"Aye, I've heard that too," said Duck, "but there's another tale I like better.  The one that says he's not like the other stone men, that he started out as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice."

Now of course, I couldn't help but notice the parallels between this version of the Shrouded Lord and the legend of the Night's King.  Here is Bran's description of the Night's King:

Quote

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.  Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was as cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

So not only do you have the same description of both women as being as "cold as ice", but the stories are eerily similar.  Both the Night's King and the Shrouded Lord rule over their subjects, both were said to be created through their love of an otherly woman, and both involve talk of "rising from the dead."  I should also note that the story of Garin and his Mother, as well as the dead do not rise line from Haldon, are eerily similar as well to the Ironborn and the talk of the Drowned God.  Perhaps there is something connecting all 3 to each other?

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I've searched and not sure this has been discussed in its own thread before, but I noticed this in a re-read of ADWD.  When Tyrion and the crew of the Shy Maid are sailing through the Sorrows, a lot of time is spent discussing Garin's curse, the Stone Men, and the Shrouded Lord.  Garin's curse of course, according to Tyrion, is Greyscale which further connects the Shrouded Lord and the Stone Men to the goings on at the Wall with Val and Shireen.  According to Ysilla, Garin's curse arose from Valyrian conquerors hanging Garin in a cage.  He called upon his Mother who drowned them all, creating the first Stone Men.  Here's her description of the stone men Valyrian:

Cold breath of course invokes the Others.  Tyrion then asks Ysilla and Yandry whether there actually is a shrouded lord, who is the ruler of the stone men.  Yandry responds:

The dead do not rise you say Haldon?  Haldon then states that there have been numerous Shrouded Lords over the years, the most current one being a corsair from the Basilisk Islands.  Here is what really caught my attention:

Now of course, I couldn't help but notice the parallels between this version of the Shrouded Lord and the legend of the Night's King.  Here is Bran's description of the Night's King:

So not only do you have the same description of both women as being as "cold as ice", but the stories are eerily similar.  Both the Night's King and the Shrouded Lord rule over their subjects, both were said to be created through their love of an otherly woman, and both involve talk of "rising from the dead."  I should also note that the story of Garin and his Mother, as well as the dead do not rise line from Haldon, are eerily similar as well to the Ironborn and the talk of the Drowned God.  Perhaps there is something connecting all 3 to each other?

I have to say this kinda gets me thinking of Melisandre: a strange mystical woman comes to a potentially powerful man and brings him to greatness through dark means.

Anyway, I doubt the lord of the shroud and the Knight's king are the same entity: not to imply that is what you're claiming; but it does appear the women in these are certainly related in some way; I'm guessing they are either the same person or they are of the same group. It's worth noting we never hear what exactly happened to the knight's king's queen no?

 

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I have to say this kinda gets me thinking of Melisandre: a strange mystical woman comes to a potentially powerful man and brings him to greatness through dark means.

Anyway, I doubt the lord of the shroud and the Knight's king are the same entity: not to imply that is what you're claiming; but it does appear the women in these are certainly related in some way; I'm guessing they are either the same person or they are of the same group. It's worth noting we never hear what exactly happened to the knight's king's queen no?

 

Yes, I think that's a bit of a repetition in the books, particularly with Melisandre (and you could maybe argue Val as well based on some theorizing about her).  While Dany's not a man, Quaithe certainly invokes that idea as well.  

That's a good point about the Night's King's queen (wow say that 3 times fast lol).  I would imagine that she was summarily killed somehow along with her King...but I'm not sure that's ever outright stated.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Yes, I think that's a bit of a repetition in the books, particularly with Melisandre (and you could maybe argue Val as well based on some theorizing about her).  While Dany's not a man, Quaithe certainly invokes that idea as well.  

That's a good point about the Night's King's queen (wow say that 3 times fast lol).  I would imagine that she was summarily killed somehow along with her King...but I'm not sure that's ever outright stated.

It's not stated: the tale ends without ever divulging on what exactly happened to her; she'd been the catalyst for the actions commited by the NK during the tale but she doesn't get an ending-how weird is that? It has to be deliberate. These tales similarities seem to hint whatever happened to night's king wasn't simply an isolated incident to which only involved the north of Westeroes; it feels like who ever she was or they were(are?), they were their plan was global. 

I have to wonder if they or were working the entity known as the great other or if singular she is the entity herself. 

I have to say this conversation is getting me thinking of what Val said about Princess Serene; that she's already dead.

Now granted she could be just spouting her primitive preconconceptions to which have no basis but what if there is something there? 

Greyscale seems to be more than a physical alignment.

 

Also credit to the original poster for bringing up such an interesting topic.

[Rufus Snow]

7 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

  Quote

"Aye, I've heard that too," said Duck, "but there's another tale I like better.  The one that says he's not like the other stone men, that he started out as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice."

This to me says the exact OPPOSITE of the Night King tale. The NK 'kissed' the woman and GAVE his soul, but the Shrouded Lord seems to have been GIVEN a soul, for how else would you describe a statue coming to life?

That said, Duck wouldn't exactly be my 'go to guy' for the Higher Mysteries.

 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I have to say this conversation is getting me thinking of what Val said about Princess Serene; that she's already dead.

Now granted she could be just spouting her primitive preconconceptions to which have no basis but what if there is something there? 

I think all that's there is the fact the Wildlings have no treatment for Greyscale, and that they seem to have experience of children supposedly 'surviving' an early infection only to die later in life. They seem to know something the Maesters don't, and this apparent 'halting' in childhood is only temporary. To Val's mind this means Shireen is a 'dead woman walking', it's only a matter of time before the Greyscale flares up again.

[Lollygag]

I’m completely on board with the idea that stonemen are tied to the Others/wights in some fashion. At present I’m going with both being a form of water magic, with the Others’ being a purer or more extreme version.

Love how you found the connection to women being their downfall. This is a huge theme among the Lannisters both historically and in-story and I’ve been wondering about the significance of that. Perhaps it’s quite intentional that the reader is bombed with “where do whores go?” in conjunction with Tyrion’s time near the Rhoyne. As such, now I’m wondering if there’s a corresponding downfall in the Wall vicinity post NK? Jon fell for Ygritte, but she was hardly his downfall so maybe it’s not there or it hasn’t happened yet.

"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

More reasons I suspect a connection between the Shrouded Lord and the Others is that there is such strong Starkish/Otherish imagery present during Tyrion’s time near the Rhoyne: JonCon’s wolf skin, Haldon’s long face, cool grey eyes and he’s called an “icy ****” , Tyrion describes JonCon’s eyes as “ice blue, pale, cold”. Jorah Mormont, too. Either there’s some major secret so-and-so stuff going on here, or the reader is being guided to connect something. Maybe it’s to connect the SL to the Others by placing Otherish references in conjunction with the Shrouded Lord tale.

The NK story is also about ambition combined with consuming (actually soul-consuming) love. In contrast we have this also in conjunction with Tyrion’s time in the Rhoyne. The man loses keep and position, but it’s all worth it. Instead of a cold kiss, you have warm hands.

He rode through the streets of the city

Down from his hill on high

Over the winds and the steps and the cobble

He rode to a woman's side

For she was his secret treasure

She was his shame and his bliss

And a chain and a keep are nothing

Compared to a woman's kiss

 

"There's more," the man said as he broke off. "Oh, a good deal more. The refrain is especially nice, I think. For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm . . ."

….

Implied here is that Serra’s hands were also warm as warm and soft are so often linked (warm soft blanket, warm soft cookies…). Doubt her stone hands are warm now.  Really makes me wonder about Illyrio as Serra was a whore. Note the greyscale arrives via The Treasure like the song and it turned her hands hard and cold.

ADWD Tyrion II

"A Braavosi trading galley called at Pentos on her way back from the Jade Sea. The Treasure carried cloves and saffron, jet and jade, scarlet samite, green silk … and the grey death. We slew her oarsmen as they came ashore and burned the ship at anchor, but the rats crept down the oars and paddled to the quay on cold stone feet. The plague took two thousand before it ran its course." Magister Illyrio closed the locket. "I keep her hands in my bedchamber. Her hands that were so soft …"

 

This sounds like a really bad kiss, actually a lot like rape. Othor’s really strong and tried to choke Ghost in the normal way so why this strange method with Jon? Is Othor trying to do something more here beyond the obvious? Tyrion swallows the Rhoyne and they say for that he'd turn to stone from the inside out if he is at all. Perhaps a kiss or just going inward is different than a superficial touch? The Shrouded Lord doesn't bestow his kiss lightly, yet greyscale is quite contagious indicating the kiss and casual transmission are different things.

AGOT Jon VII

He glimpsed black hands buried in white fur, swollen dark fingers tightening around his direwolf's throat. Ghost was twisting and snapping, legs flailing in the air, but he could not break free.

...

Jon's breath went out of him as the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe …

 

The connection to the Ironborn might be important beyond water/ice. The Rhoyne is supposedly the place where ironworking was invented. I'm guessing it was to contain Garin's curse but no proof. Iron on the stone statues at Winterfell supposedly keeps them at peace. We know that the Others do not care for iron. I’ve always found it quite curious that Westeros has always been rather homogenous religiously. At first it was old gods, then the Andals came and the 7 replaced the old gods in the South only. But the Ironborn having the Drowned God perhaps points to them having unique origins relative to the rest of the Westerosi. I need to read their backstory in TWOIAF but haven't done so yet.

What is dead may never die does put one in mind of the wights and stonemen.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

I think all that's there is the fact the Wildlings have no treatment for Greyscale, and that they seem to have experience of children supposedly 'surviving' an early infection only to die later in life. They seem to know something the Maesters don't, and this apparent 'halting' in childhood is only temporary. To Val's mind this means Shireen is a 'dead woman walking', it's only a matter of time before the Greyscale flares up again.

Oh quite possibly of course-I mean it is not the first time a person has spouted ridiculous superstitions in a pov character's ear. But, perhaps greyscale if it has magic origins strips someone of their soul. I mean Jon himself has worries about Val being correct and has to reaffirm himself; perhaps Martin put that seed in Jon's head to get us the readers suspecting there may be far more to greyscale than it appears I don't know just some mindless speculation. I fully admit this could be bullshit.

[Varysblackfyre321]

It's also worth noting Greyscale generally spreads in places cold and damp.  

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

This to me says the exact OPPOSITE of the Night King tale. The NK 'kissed' the woman and GAVE his soul, but the Shrouded Lord seems to have been GIVEN a soul, for how else would you describe a statue coming to life?

But nevertheless a soul is transferred through a kiss.

[Lady Dacey]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It's also worth noting Greyscale generally spreads in places cold and damp.  

But nevertheless a soul is transferred through a kiss.

There is a lot of precedent for that in the series... Lady stoneheart was a "statue" brought to life by a kiss. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

There is a lot of precedent for that in the series... Lady stoneheart was a "statue" brought to life by a kiss. 

The Ironborn nearly drown one another and give cpr to bring the who was held under water back while others pray. 

[Lady Dacey]

44 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The Ironborn nearly drown one another and give cpr to bring the who was held under water back while others pray. 

Good point. Lots of kissing involved in life and death situations in Martin's world. Very fairytalely... or not 

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Good point. Lots of kissing involved in life and death situations in Martin's world. Very fairytalely... or not 

You know I just realized; the religion of the drowned God and Rhlorism may be connected; Morroqo specificly says the drown God is a servent for the great other; now it's worth noting at other times when discussing other gods  most of the other red priests we've seen simply say they're false not real altogether; they're false gods but for the Drown God Morroqo declares the entity a demon in service of the great other.

Rhlor and the red god's doctrine are the only religions to where there is a great enemy to the God that's being worshipped; the drowned God has the storm lord and Rhl'or has the great other to which they are both still at war with.

But Rhl'or is seen by even his followers of being the fiery type not the stormy type you say; but remember we've seen when sacrifices had been made at see  wind pick favorably to those who Rhl'or tribute; wouldn't you expect that from the Stormgod as well? 

And what does wind do but fuel fire?

The followers of the drowned God give their tribute to their deity a cold death through drowning  people, the Rhl'orist through burning. 

Both, seem to have this tack of kissing to bring forth life.

 

[Seams]

On 2/7/2018 at 1:47 PM, Tagganaro said:

... I couldn't help but notice the parallels between this version of the Shrouded Lord and the legend of the Night's King.  ...

So not only do you have the same description of both women as being as "cold as ice", but the stories are eerily similar.  Both the Night's King and the Shrouded Lord rule over their subjects, both were said to be created through their love of an otherly woman, and both involve talk of "rising from the dead."  I should also note that the story of Garin and his Mother, as well as the dead do not rise line from Haldon, are eerily similar as well to the Ironborn and the talk of the Drowned God.  Perhaps there is something connecting all 3 to each other?

I think you are really onto something, and that there is a pattern that goes beyond the similarities between the Shrouded Lord and the Night's King, as you speculate in your closing paragraph.

In a recent re-read of the Brienne POVs in AFfC, I was newly intrigued by Ser Creighton Longbough and his companion, Ser Illifer the Pennyless. Ser Creighton keeps telling Brienne that he fought at the Blackwater and that the singers sing about him. She is skeptical, but I knew there were at least two songs about a warrior at the Battle of the Blackwater, so I took at closer look at Lord Renly's Ride, by Hamish the Harper and an untitled, 77-verse song about the Blackwater by Galeon of Cuy.

What struck me is that the only lyrics GRRM gives us - from both of the songs - seem to refer to Stannis, not to Renly (or to Renly's ghost):

The only lyrics we are given from the Harper's song say, "From his throne of bones the Lord of Death looked down on the murdered lord." The rest is paraphrased:

Hamish ... went on to tell how Renly, repenting his attempt to usurp his nephew's crown, had defied the Lord of Death himself and crossed back to the land of the living to defend the realm against his brother. ... Margaery was teary-eyed by the end, when the shade of brave Lord Renly flew to Highgarden to steal one last look at his true love's face.

(ASoS, Tyrion VIII)

We get what appears to be one full verse - with some ad-libs by Tyrion - of the 77 verses in Galyeon's song:

“The dark lord brooded high in his tower,” Galyeon began, “in a castle as black as the night.”

“Black was his hair and black was his soul,” the musicians chanted in unison. A flute came in.

“He feasted on bloodlust and envy, and filled his cup full up with spite,” sang Galyeon. “My brother once ruled seven kingdoms, he said to his harridan wife. I’ll take what was his and make it all mine. Let his son feel the point of my knife.”

“A brave young boy with hair of gold,” his players chanted, as a woodharp and a fiddle began to play.

...

“The dark lord assembled his legions, they gathered around him like crows. And thirsty for blood they boarded their ships…”

“…and cut off poor Tyrion’s nose,” Tyrion finished.

The dark lord seems to be Stannis. Without more context, it's difficult to tell whether the Lord of Death is also Stannis or maybe it refers to The Stranger of the seven gods. Of course, it was Ser Mandon Moore who cut off Tyrion's nose, and he is always described as looking dead. (I suspect he is someone else in disguise, probably one of Rhaegar's king's guard members who was killed at the Tower of Joy.) I was just gearing up to write a post about the Stranger and the Dark Lord when I noticed this lyric from the Rains of Castamere, apparently referring to Roger Reyne:

And who are you, the proud lord said,

that I must bow so low?

So we have the dark lord, the Lord of Death and the proud lord. Together with the underwater imagery of the attack on Castamere, I figured I better take a look at the shrouded lord as well. But now you've gotten the ball rolling on what I think is the same topic, approaching from a different angle.

When Sansa protests that 77-verse Blackwater song incorrectly describes Cersei's behavior during the battle, Tyrion tells her, “Never believe anything you hear in a song, my lady.” But we know that GRRM gives us truths and insights in the form of songs. They often relay legends from Westeros history or lore that parallel events in the contemporary story. My guess is that these legendary characters are not specifically named because - as with Haldon's belief that there have been a succession of shrouded lords - the characters in the songs are archetypes that repeat throughout history. Often, the references are to someone unexpected.

For instance, the Lord of Death looks down from a throne of bones. I have seen other posts in this forum that theorize that Ned is the king of the underworld or winter king or the holly king and Robert is the summer king or oak king. When Robert comes to visit Ned, the first place they go is into the Winterfell crypt - Ned's throne room that is full of bones. Moreover, the sparrows have delivered bones of murdered septons and septas and piled them around the statue of Baelor on the steps of Baelor's Sept - the spot where Ned was beheaded. So the use of the indefinite "Lord of Death" title allows us to look for layers of meaning in one character.

Similarly, if you look at the dark lord lyrics, many of the words that describe Stannis also describe Jon Snow, who lives in a black castle, is surrounded by crows and had a brother who was a king. Granted, it might have been his grandfather who was king of the seven kingdoms and he does not have a harridan wife, as far as we know. So maybe Jon isn't a match, but there might be other brothers of kings who would fit the lyrics.

The drowning imagery around Tywin's attack on Castamere and Garin's attack on the Valyrians might also tie in with the drowning of Steffon Baratheon and Patchface as well as the Ironborn "baptism" and sacrificial rituals.

Back to the stone men, though. I do see an echo of Ned Stark in the stone man who attacks Tyrion at the Bridge of Dream - the stone man and Ned both have the same type of broken bone in their legs. I don't recall anyone else with that same injury in the books.

21 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’m completely on board with the idea that stonemen are tied to the Others/wights in some fashion. At present I’m going with both being a form of water magic, with the Others’ being a purer or more extreme version.

Love how you found the connection to women being their downfall. This is a huge theme among the Lannisters both historically and in-story and I’ve been wondering about the significance of that. Perhaps it’s quite intentional that the reader is bombed with “where do whores go?” in conjunction with Tyrion’s time near the Rhoyne. As such, now I’m wondering if there’s a corresponding downfall in the Wall vicinity post NK? Jon fell for Ygritte, but she was hardly his downfall so maybe it’s not there or it hasn’t happened yet.

...

The connection to the Ironborn might be important beyond water/ice. The Rhoyne is supposedly the place where ironworking was invented. I'm guessing it was to contain Garin's curse but no proof. Iron on the stone statues at Winterfell supposedly keeps them at peace. We know that the Others do not care for iron. I’ve always found it quite curious that Westeros has always been rather homogenous religiously. At first it was old gods, then the Andals came and the 7 replaced the old gods in the South only. But the Ironborn having the Drowned God perhaps points to them having unique origins relative to the rest of the Westerosi.

Remember that it is an open secret that the Night's Watch men go to Molestown to "dig for treasure" in the underground brothel. Jon has steered clear of the place so far.

I hadn't picked up on the Rhoyne as the origin of ironworking! That fits with one of the possible wordplay matches: Noir / Noire / Iron / Rhoyne. Noir is the French word for black.

[Ygrain]

On 7. 2. 2018 at 7:47 PM, Tagganaro said:

"They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire.  Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts."

It reminds also of "dead things in the water" from Cotter Pyke's mission. 

Combined with Patchface's weird resurrection, the Ironborn mantra of "what is dead, may never die" etc., it seems that water depths are indeed home to something not exactly pleasant - and since water is basically just melted ice, the cold aspect is not really surprising.

As for the fate of the Night Queen, from the Damphair chapter:

Spoiler

When Damphair has a vision of monster-like Euron on the throne, there is also "a shadow in woman's form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire"

It can be a distorted vision of a real woman, but if it actually the Night Queen, or someone similar, it would explain where Euron learned the magic that he is going to perform.

 

[Lollygag]

59 minutes ago, Seams said:

Remember that it is an open secret that the Night's Watch men go to Molestown to "dig for treasure" in the underground brothel. Jon has steered clear of the place so far.

Ah nice.

For she was his secret treasure

She was his shame and his bliss

I don't know why I didn't think on it before, but you're right on Stannis: he's in position to be brought down by a soul-stealing woman.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I hadn't picked up on the Rhoyne as the origin of ironworking! That fits with one of the possible wordplay matches: Noir / Noire / Iron / Rhoyne. Noir is the French word for black.

I'm really fixated on the IronBORN part. If wights and stonemen (speculating) are not fond of iron, then this maybe puts the Ironborn in an opposing situation? Their association with Krakens (mythwise linked to volcanoes) and We Do Not Sow sounds a lot like the Valyrians. Not sowing sounds like it may be related to your ideas of sewing mentioned in other threads. Interesting that Stannis is so often described as Iron and how he has Theon and Asha in his arc which seems significant. Stannis beat the Ironborn by water during Balon's rebellion. Perhaps this was foreshadowing?

1 hour ago, Seams said:

The dark lord seems to be Stannis. Without more context, it's difficult to tell whether the Lord of Death is also be Stannis or maybe it refers to The Stranger of the seven gods. Of course, it was Ser Mandon Moore who cut off Tyrion's nose, and he is always described as looking dead. (I suspect he is someone else in disguise, probably one of Rhaegar's king's guard members who was killed at the Tower of Joy.) I was just gearing up to write a post about the Stranger and the Dark Lord when I noticed this lyric from the Rains of Castamere, apparently referring to Roger Reyne:

And who are you, the proud lord said,

that I must bow so low?

So we have the dark lord, the Lord of Death and the proud lord. Together with the underwater imagery of the attack on Castamere, I figured I better take a look at the shrouded lord as well. But now you've gotten the ball rolling on what I think is the same topic, approaching from a different angle.

The Reynes and Castamere are mentioned a great deal for something done and gone which makes me think it's still very relevant to the story. TWOIAF goes into it extensively and the season 7 DVD has a really nice animated piece about it though WARNING: there are some differences to the books.

The Reynes are the Red Lion to the Lannister Golden Lion, a "little brother" if you will.

ADWD Tyrion V

"We are made of blood and bone, in the image of the Father and the Mother," said Septa Lemore. "Make no vainglorious boasts, I beg you. Pride is a grievous sin. The stone men were proud as well, and the Shrouded Lord was proudest of them all."

 

[Seams]

43 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Ah nice.

For she was his secret treasure

She was his shame and his bliss

I don't know why I didn't think on it before, but you're right on Stannis: he's in position to be brought down by a soul-stealing woman.

I'm really fixated on the IronBORN part. If wights and stonemen (speculating) are not fond of iron, then this maybe puts the Ironborn in an opposing situation? Their association with Krakens (mythwise linked to volcanoes) and We Do Not Sow sounds a lot like the Valyrians. Not sowing sounds like it may be related to your ideas of sewing mentioned in other threads. Interesting that Stannis is so often described as Iron and how he has Theon and Asha in his arc which seems significant. Stannis beat the Ironborn by water during Balon's rebellion. Perhaps this was foreshadowing?

The Reynes and Castamere are mentioned a great deal for something done and gone which makes me think it's still very relevant to the story. TWOIAF goes into it extensively and the season 7 DVD has a really nice animated piece about it though WARNING: there are some differences to the books.

The Reynes are the Red Lion to the Lannister Golden Lion, a "little brother" if you will.

ADWD Tyrion V

"We are made of blood and bone, in the image of the Father and the Mother," said Septa Lemore. "Make no vainglorious boasts, I beg you. Pride is a grievous sin. The stone men were proud as well, and the Shrouded Lord was proudest of them all."

Yes, I just read your new installment on the "Is Craster a Casterly?" thread. It does seem as if seemingly disparate stories are coming back together. I like the ideas about Littlefinger and Maggie the Frog and the many faces of Ellyn.

I think the Ironborn motto is a message about sow / sew, but it also links to the "seed is strong" mystery because farmers sow seed. I'm also pondering its possible connection to the mysterious House Darry, as their sigil is a ploughman. Apparently the Darrys do sow.

I agree, the "born" part of Ironborn also seems significant. I've been thinking about Theon killing Mikken lately, wondering what that meant. If you give birth to iron (or iron gave birth to you) would a smith be like a midwife? Or is a smith superfluous in a land where iron is born?

[Tagganaro]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

It reminds also of "dead things in the water" from Cotter Pyke's mission. 

Combined with Patchface's weird resurrection, the Ironborn mantra of "what is dead, may never die" etc., it seems that water depths are indeed home to something not exactly pleasant - and since water is basically just melted ice, the cold aspect is not really surprising.

As for the fate of the Night Queen, from the Damphair chapter:

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When Damphair has a vision of monster-like Euron on the throne, there is also "a shadow in woman's form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire"

It can be a distorted vision of a real woman, but if it actually the Night Queen, or someone similar, it would explain where Euron learned the magic that he is going to perform.

 

Completely agree, the water depths to me seem to be the next unexplored frontier or whatever you want to call it of magical creatures.  I have not read TWOW spoilers, but I'd imagine/hope we will at the very least see some sort of sea monster/actual kraken action.  The "dead things in the water" line has always intrigued me.  Just the way it's put is creepy and evokes terrible imagery.  Like Cotter could just say "wights in the water" but he specifically doesn't.  

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I think you are really onto something, and that there is a pattern that goes beyond the similarities between the Shrouded Lord and the Night's King, as you speculate in your closing paragraph.

In a recent re-read of the Brienne POVs in AFfC, I was newly intrigued by Ser Creighton Longbough and his companion, Ser Illifer the Pennyless. Ser Creighton keeps telling Brienne that he fought at the Blackwater and that the singers sing about him. She is skeptical, but I knew there were at least two songs about a warrior at the Battle of the Blackwater, so I took at closer look at Lord Renly's Ride, by Hamish the Harper and an untitled, 77-verse song about the Blackwater by Galeon of Cuy.

It's been killing me on re-read- Why are Longbough and Illifer included in the story and given such a prominent role early on in Brienne's chapters?  Of course, they could just be comedy throwaways, and there is something thematically relevant about Brienne's overall arc to them being windbags but generally honorable and nice people (I also see Nimble Dick in a similar light, although he may not be honorable he is not the scumbag he first appears to be either).  

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The dark lord seems to be Stannis. Without more context, it's difficult to tell whether the Lord of Death is also be Stannis or maybe it refers to The Stranger of the seven gods. Of course, it was Ser Mandon Moore who cut off Tyrion's nose, and he is always described as looking dead. (I suspect he is someone else in disguise, probably one of Rhaegar's king's guard members who was killed at the Tower of Joy.) I was just gearing up to write a post about the Stranger and the Dark Lord when I noticed this lyric from the Rains of Castamere, apparently referring to Roger Reyne:

This makes perfect sense to me- Stannis and his wife choosing the Night's King's fort as his home base on the Wall and Donal Noye's description of him "breaking" seem to me to foreshadow him eventually doing some more terrible things in order to gain power. 

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Back to the stone men, though. I do see an echo of Ned Stark in the stone man who attacks Tyrion at the Bridge of Dream - the stone man and Ned both have the same type of broken bone in their legs. I don't recall anyone else with that same injury in the books.

Now that is really interesting!

19 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’m completely on board with the idea that stonemen are tied to the Others/wights in some fashion. At present I’m going with both being a form of water magic, with the Others’ being a purer or more extreme version.

 

Love how you found the connection to women being their downfall. This is a huge theme among the Lannisters both historically and in-story and I’ve been wondering about the significance of that. Perhaps it’s quite intentional that the reader is bombed with “where do whores go?” in conjunction with Tyrion’s time near the Rhoyne. As such, now I’m wondering if there’s a corresponding downfall in the Wall vicinity post NK? Jon fell for Ygritte, but she was hardly his downfall so maybe it’s not there or it hasn’t happened yet.

 

"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."

Yeah, I know this has been theorized before with that description of Val in the moonlight- there is similar imagery to how the Night King's Queen is described.  Perhaps Val's role in Jon's "downfall" has already occurred- Jon is after all reacting to a scream that he initially things belonged to Val before he is attacked by Marsh and the conspirators.  Ser Patrek is indeed attempting to steal Val leading up to those events.

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More reasons I suspect a connection between the Shrouded Lord and the Others is that there is such strong Starkish/Otherish imagery present during Tyrion’s time near the Rhoyne: JonCon’s wolf skin, Haldon’s long face, cool grey eyes and he’s called an “icy ****” , Tyrion describes JonCon’s eyes as “ice blue, pale, cold”. Jorah Mormont, too. Either there’s some major secret so-and-so stuff going on here, or the reader is being guided to connect something. Maybe it’s to connect the SL to the Others by placing Otherish references in conjunction with the Shrouded Lord tale.

Now this is really interesting because if you really think about it at a macro-level, all the grey imagery of stone men and greyscale connects to Stark colors.  When Mel thinks she's seeing Arya in her flames, she tells Jon about a "grey girl on a dying horse."  

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The connection to the Ironborn might be important beyond water/ice. The Rhoyne is supposedly the place where ironworking was invented. I'm guessing it was to contain Garin's curse but no proof. Iron on the stone statues at Winterfell supposedly keeps them at peace. We know that the Others do not care for iron. I’ve always found it quite curious that Westeros has always been rather homogenous religiously. At first it was old gods, then the Andals came and the 7 replaced the old gods in the South only. But the Ironborn having the Drowned God perhaps points to them having unique origins relative to the rest of the Westerosi. I need to read their backstory in TWOIAF but haven't done so yet.

 

What is dead may never die does put one in mind of the wights and stonemen.

 

I love these connections because they make Essos and Essosi culture seem far more relevant to the overall story.  I've had issues in the past regarding all the characters in Essos because it just seems like a delaying tactic to end game material to have characters there- but if for example you can tie in the House of the Undying or Essosi religion to the fight against the Others in the North, suddenly it becomes more interesting.

IIRC, I believe Moqorro tells Victarion something about the Drowned God being a thrall of the Great Other or something along those lines.  Vic obviously doesn't like that statement but it is interesting how "what is dead may never die" sounds exactly like a description of raising wights by the Others.  Then you get the procedure followed by Aeron and the drowned men of basically trying to drown someone and then bring them back to life with CPR.  Certainly an interesting parallel to the Others.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It reminds also of "dead things in the water" from Cotter Pyke's mission. 

Combined with Patchface's weird resurrection, the Ironborn mantra of "what is dead, may never die" etc., it seems that water depths are indeed home to something not exactly pleasant - and since water is basically just melted ice, the cold aspect is not really surprising.

As for the fate of the Night Queen, from the Damphair chapter:

  Hide contents

When Damphair has a vision of monster-like Euron on the throne, there is also "a shadow in woman's form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire"

It can be a distorted vision of a real woman, but if it actually the Night Queen, or someone similar, it would explain where Euron learned the magic that he is going to perform.

 

Look another powerful man got in bed with mysterious and seemingly magical woman. I wonder if Dampair will try to save Euron's soul from this vixin as Maestor Cressen had tried to save Stannis' from the red witch.

 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

It's been killing me on re-read- Why are Longbough and Illifer included in the story and given such a prominent role early on in Brienne's chapters?  Of course, they could just be comedy throwaways, and there is something thematically relevant about Brienne's overall arc to them being windbags but generally honorable and nice people (I also see Nimble Dick in a similar light, although he may not be honorable he is not the scumbag he first appears to be either). 

This is a bit of a tangent from the OP, but might be related, in the sense that characters that fit patterns and parallels could help us to sort out the echo of the Night's King, shrouded lord, dark lord, etc. I suspect Creighton and Illifer and possibly Nimble Dick Crabb are archetypes or symbols or "reborn" characters from other arcs, although I haven't quite pinned them down. One easy possibility is that the name Creighton contains the letters "ICE" and the name Illifer contains the letters "FIRE". Even if that was deliberate, however, I'm not sure what it would mean. Maybe that Brienne is one of the few people who can live with both elements.

[chrisdaw]

The Others are to ice as Euron's underwater undead army will be to stone. It'll be the same thing, same magic principles, just stone for ice, shadowed heart for frozen heart. Euron's ascendancy will be the showing/explanation of how it happened/happens with the Others, and so the origin stories run in close parallel.

The cold as ice lips represent a woman with greyscale. That's what the cold means, what the dead but not dead is about. Almost certainly Green Blooded Garin's descendant Arianne.

This is a continuation with a symbolic fixation on lips associated with Euron. Grey lips smiling sadly. Blue blue lips. It's because his lips are what will blow his horn, and change the course of the story.

Where you see stone being melted by dragon's fire, that's foreshadowing Dany destroying end game Shrouded Lord Euron. Harrenhal, Qarlon the Great and of course Garin the Great for glaring examples (and all which involve the subjugation of a water mass). Fearless stone/water associated men who fucked with dragons and got their asses melted.