Stannis Baratheon has no true claim to the throne

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 09/02/2018 at 4:11 AM, UFT said:

the real claim is claim of "conquest" which rewards only the most powerful generals, and the most populist and charismatic ones.

Not at all. Yes, if there's a dispute over who should be king, then obviously force is the deciding factor. But throughout the history of Westros, the most common basis for someone becoming king, either of the separate 7K or of the whole of them, has been heredity. 

The idea of lawful succession actually matters to these people, much like legitimate elections matter to us. Yes, ultimately a claimant may have to resort to force, but they also always have at least some basis for making a claim in the first place (Renly's pretty much the exception). 

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

This topic makes no sense Cersies children claim rights to the Iron Throne through Robert Baratheon who is suppose to be there father, they did not take the throne through conquest so since they are NOT Roberts kids the Throne by rights belongs to Stannis. 

The throne by legal rights belongs to the acknowledged heirs of Robert Baratheon, they are his children. The law is on their side, both Joffrey and Tommen were even formally made King by the High Septon of the time. 

The Lord of Dragonstone does not get to decide who is a bastard and who is not, the only way the throne is his is if he usurps it (his chosen method), has the High Septon declare Robert's 'children' as not his or a Great Council to denounce them. 

Stannis has no legal rights to the Throne. 

[Stormking902]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The throne by legal rights belongs to the acknowledged heirs of Robert Baratheon, they are his children. The law is on their side, both Joffrey and Tommen were even formally made King by the High Septon of the time. 

The Lord of Dragonstone does not get to decide who is a bastard and who is not, the only way the throne is his is if he usurps it (his chosen method), has the High Septon declare Robert's 'children' as not his or a Great Council to denounce them. 

Stannis has no legal rights to the Throne. 

I agree YES Joffrey and Tommon are Roberts legal heirs because Stannis or anyone else cant prove them to be bastards, WE as the READER know for 100% Joffrey and Tommon are in fact Jamies kids so when Stannis says he is the rightful King of Westeros we as the reader believe him and know he is Roberts true heir. 

In Westeros though Yes Stannis does not have a legal claim to the throne because the twincest isnt a proven fact but what happens if Tommom and Myrcella die?? Which we know is going to happen then Stannis has every right. 

[Light a wight tonight]

On 2/9/2018 at 11:45 AM, Pikachu101 said:

Ok here we go:

1. Robert overthrew the Targaryens
2. Robert is now king
3. Robert has no legitimate sons
4. Stannis is Robert's brother
5. Stannis inherits the throne

It's not that hard.

The problem is Point 3. Joff and Tommen were recognized as Robert's legitimate heirs. It's politics: Stannis has to convince enough Great Houses that they are not legitmate (or to convince those Lords that it's in their best interests to act that way) to get himself enough support to take the Iron Throne. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

but what happens if Tommom and Myrcella die?? Which we know is going to happen then Stannis has every right. 

I imagine either one pretender/rightful heir (delete as appropriate) will be strong enough to take control or there will have to be a Great Council to determine who the rightful ruler should be. 

Cat was right to suggest this in ACOK. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

No, he has a claim, just not a strong one unless he could convince people that Cersei's children are illegitimate. But even then, he was doomed to fail from the beginning because no one likes him.

On 2/10/2018 at 5:21 AM, Pride of Driftmark said:

Stannis is such a fan favorite because he's the underdog- things keep going wrong for him but he pulls through. He is a shady dude- he's willing to use magic and human sacrifices, after all. But his determination, wit, and mad jokes are what get him so many fans. The Stannis portrayed in the books is quite paradoxical- Martin goes on and on about how nobody in universe likes Stannis, yet the only eyes we see him through are Jon, Davos, Asha, and Theon- people who hold respect (or fear) for him. 

I never understood why people claim Stannis is an underdog, or rather why he is a sympathetic underdog. Sure, we don't expect him to win, but that's because he's constantly shooting himself in the foot. Usually, underdog characters are people who are of low status because of outside forces. Stannis, meanwhile, has everything going for him - he's got land and wealth, he's the master of ships, and he has a competent witch killing of his enemies, but he squanders it all by being a grumpy ass all the time and tactlessly insulting potential allies.

I don't think there's anything contradictory in his portrayal. He commands the respect and admiration of a few men who are extremely loyal to him (Davos, Cressen), and everyone else either respects but dislikes him (Ned, Jon) or straight up can't stand him. And we see this reflected in the POVs.

[The hairy bear]

I completely agree. If only Stannis had done the smallest effort to reward loyalty and maintain good relations with his natural allies, everyone (including the Starks and Renly) would have sided with him after Robert's death. Which, by the way, it may not have happened if Stannis had not abandoned him without telling him what he knew about Cersei's kids. Stannis greatest enemy is himself.

And I'd add that he is not "a fan favorite", as in that he is loved by the immense majority of fans. Stannis has the same impact in the fandom that he has in Westeros: he is unconditionally loved by a very passionate and vocal minority, and not particularly liked (or even despised) by the rest.

 

 

[Orphalesion]

On 2/13/2018 at 0:49 PM, Stormking902 said:

This topic makes no sense Cersies children claim rights to the Iron Throne through Robert Baratheon who is suppose to be there father, they did not take the throne through conquest so since they are NOT Roberts kids the Throne by rights belongs to Stannis. 

 

 

Nobody cares about that. As far as the people of Westeros are concerned Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcela are Robert's legitimate children. Westeros is a primitive society that completely lacks any paternity tests.
So unless you get Cersei and/or Jaime to confess publicly that they created incest bastards (which they would never do since it'd mean dire consequences for the lot of them) there is no way to proof that those three aren't legitimate. 

So the only chance Stannis has is convincing the other Great Houses to choose him over Robert's children, which will never happen because nobody likes him. Even Myrcella would probably have an easier time getting backers than him.
And all of that will be irrelevant once the girl with the dragons shows up.

[newbieone]

I'm sorry, but you contradict yourself, UFT. You say conquest is more important than hereditary claims. But that doesn't mean the hereditary claims are somehow nonexistent or that conquest is a claim in the same sense as descent. You basically affirm that they are two different things, and that's it.

Also just because Robert ruled through conquest doesn't mean his hereditary claim was irrelevant — in fact it was the very reason why he became king instead of, let's say, a Great Council election. Arys was killed and his offspring also killed or deposed, and Robert was next in line anyway for all anyone knew, ahead of earlier Targ offshots such as the Brightflames (Aerion's offspring) or the Great Bastards' progeny or the Velaryons (from their old Targ marriages).

Even Renly used a hereditary claim, it's just that his way inferior to everybody else's. (Yeah, well, Mace Tyrell didn't have any claim at all, unfortunately for him, despite having more goons than anyone else. ;))

Plus, all hereditary claims go back to something, some kind of original, formative event, such as Aegon's Conquest. The Targs' own claims are only valid if we accept Aegon the Conqueror as a valid king. But once we do, their claims are valid. Same with Robert. If we accept Robert as valid, the next king's supposed to be his heir. That's officially Joffrey, then Tommen, then Stannis, then Renly, but once you know Joffrey and Tommen are Lannister bastards, Stannis is indeed Robert's heir (which even Renly acknowledges).

And for the record, senior heirs were bypassed before already several times in Targ times. Viserys had been proclaimed on Dragonstone, possibly crowned in some sort of ceremony, but he didn't get a proper High Septon coronation in Oldtown the way a king usually did, and Robert did. One could argue for Robert as a valid king, and from a valid king succession went on further, instead of devolving back to the previously bypassed heirs.