Shadow of Asshai

Aegon is Faegon

104 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

" Martin has said that he would like to write a number of these stories (varying from six to twelve from interview to interview) covering the entire lives of these two characters. He has talked about an unfinished fourth novella with the working title The She-Wolves of Winterfell, which was originally to be included in the 2013 anthology Dangerous Women. As of late 2013, work on the story has been postponed while Martin completes The Winds of Winter. In April 2014, Martin also announced that he had roughed out another Dunk and Egg story with the working title The Village Hero which would be set in the Riverlands. He noted that he was not sure which of these two would be completed first.[6] In 2015, Martin noted that in addition to She-Wolves and The Village Hero he had notes and fairly specific ideas for a number of further installments, including The Sellsword, The Champion, The Kingsguard, and The Lord Commander, taking the planned series total to as many as nine novellas.[7] "

 

Based on this, seems that by 2015 She-Wolves and The Village Hero were nearly done. Because if in 2015 he already wrote notes for novels 6, 7, 8 and 9, then 4 and 5 were already mostly done.

Also D&E books are much shorter than ASOIAF books. For example novel 1 (The Hedge Knight) is 56,120 words or 184 pages long. In second novel there are 152 pages. Novel 3 (The Mystery Knight) is 48,800 words or 160 pages long.

A Game of Thrones - 298,000. A Clash of kings - 326,000. A Storm of Swords - 424,000. A Feast for Crows - 300,000. A Dance with Dragons - 422,000. In all five combined together there are 1,770,000 words.

AGOT alone is nearly three times longer that all three first novels of D&E series. One D&E novel is equal to 5-7 chapters of ADWD (chapters with Dany's Jon's or Tyrion's POV is 5,500-7,500+ words long).

So it's possible that GRRM will be done with writing entire series of D&E, even sooner than TWOW will be published. Though even if he will be done with their writing, doesn't mean that all of them will be published all at once, or one close to the other. To make more money, it makes more sense to prolong publication for as long as possible. Thus we may get those books in 2030+, and author's age is irrelevant.

I am hoping a lot of it is ready to go too. But as the father of three children I can assure you that what we say we want to do almost always turns out different than what we actually do. 

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13 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

OMG, just started reading and thank you so much for sharing!!!  so you approached George and, vague as he ever is, took the time to reply!!!  Wow, nothing wrong with asking politely, what an achievement!!! The first part, onto the rest yes, to me indicates that he is vague about Dany being barren (my guess is that she is not... but hey anything is possible here) ;)  Thanks soooo much for sharing this!!!

The Quotes are from some one else talking to him unfortunately hahah im not sure what question i would throw at George hahah Hmmm. I dont think Dany is barren either :) and absolutely!! Let me know what you think :) 

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28 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aegon IV fathering Daemon on Daena amounts to nothing. She doesn't hold the blood of the Green Faction. The Green Faction died. The Blacks are all that survived. The Blackfyres and current Targaryens are made of of the Black faction from the Dance. 

During the Dance of the Dragons there were the Greens and the Blacks. Aegon III, that was Dany's ancestor, were one of the Blacks.

But when Aegon IV fathered many bastards, and among them Daemon, this Daemon used as his sigil and banner, a reversed symbol of Targaryens. Dany's/Targaryen's banner is red dragon on black field. While symbol of Blackfyres is black dragon on red field. Thus Targaryens, during their confrontation with Blackfyres were called the Reds, and Blackfyres were the Blacks.

Thus even though current Targaryens are descendants of the Black faction from the Dance, nevertheless they are the Reds. And the Blacks are Blackfyres.

I think that Blackfyres/Varys were following surviving Targaryens (Dany and Viserys) from the very beginning, and it was them (spies of Blackfyres), who painted door of Targaryens' house in Braavos with red paint. They marked this house as house of Red dragons.

42 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again though, for what? They serve no purpose. Blackfyres aren't the true branch of Targaryens, they aren't secret dragon hatchers. 

Though they can be a secret dragon eggs snatchers.

I think that seven dragon eggs, that belonged to Targaryens, and disappeared in course of Tragedy at Summerhall, were actually stolen by Blackfyres. And death of Aegon V and both of his Duncans, were caused by Blackfyres. And Dany's three dragon eggs, are three out of those seven, stolen by Blackfyres from Summerhall. Because one egg is different than the others two, thus most likely those two were from one dragon, and Drogon's egg was from another. And where else would Illyrio take dragon eggs from different dragons, if not from seven Targaryens that died at Summerhall?

Also could be that Blackfyres are able to hatch dragon eggs. Could be that they gave to Dany only three eggs, because they left the other four, to be hatched by someone else. Could be that someone already hatched dragons, even before Dany's three. This (AGOT, Bran IV):

Quote

He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

This was happening before Ned's execution, thus it was before Drogo's death, and before Dany hatched dragon eggs. Nevertheless at that time in Asshai, there were already dragons there, at the time when Cat was sailing to King's Landing.

55 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I will give you that Bittersteel didn't die till 241. So any kid by him would be 59 during the current story. Seems a little old for Varys given how easily he gets around like a water dancer. I put Varys in his 40's more likely. So your Serra would have to be the grand daughter of Calla. 

Bittersteel was born in 172. He died aged 69. So most likely his children were born both before and after his exile to Essos, but definitely long before time of his death.

So I assume that Varys and Serra are most likely Bittersteel's grandchildren, or maybe even his great grandchildren.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also, if female line mattered, wouldn't Bloodraven had been killing them too. Guy was pretty efficient. I dont think he would have let that slide. 

He didn't executed Daemon II (third son of Daemon I Blackfyre), not to make his mother Rohanna sad. So it's unlikely that he was adamant about annihilating all Blackfyres. And probably there was a special reason why Bloodraven did executed Aenys (fourth son).

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3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

During the Dance of the Dragons there were the Greens and the Blacks. Aegon III, that was Dany's ancestor, were one of the Blacks.

But when Aegon IV fathered many bastards, and among them Daemon, this Daemon used as his sigil and banner, a reversed symbol of Targaryens. Dany's/Targaryen's banner is red dragon on black field. While symbol of Blackfyres is black dragon on red field. Thus Targaryens, during their confrontation with Blackfyres were called the Reds, and Blackfyres were the Blacks.

Thus even though current Targaryens are descendants of the Black faction from the Dance, nevertheless they are the Reds. And the Blacks are Blackfyres.

I think that Blackfyres/Varys were following surviving Targaryens (Dany and Viserys) from the very beginning, and it was them (spies of Blackfyres), who painted door of Targaryens' house in Braavos with red paint. They marked this house as house of Red dragons.

The Reds and the Blacks dont matter at that point is my point. So those divisions were not brought up. The Blacks and the Greens is what mattered.  Rhaenyra winning producing the next kings with Daemon was the death nail to the Dragons as evident by Aegon III the Dragon Bane. 

The Reds and Blacks you speak of all come from Aegon III. The family half that already lost dragons. So the Blackfyres are useless. Daena doesn't' come from the line of Aegon II so no restoration in House Blackfyre. 

And why would Darry let Varys and Illyrio paint his door red?? I get the symbolism your going for but i dont think Darry would have been ok with that lol also i dont think they would want their door announcing who they were. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again though, for what? They serve no purpose.

They provide the motivation for the antagonists to Daenerys the protagonist in the second of the three main conflicts of ASOIAF. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Blackfyres aren't the true branch of Targaryens, they aren't secret dragon hatchers. 

What the heck are "secret dargon hatchers?" Jon isn't going to hatch any dragons but he is the prince that was promised. Daenerys is the Mother of dragons. I don't see any more dragonlets hatching, unless maybe one hatches from egg in the crib of her son at the very end of the tale. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aegon IV fathering Daemon on Daena amounts to nothing. She doesn't hold the blood of the Green Faction. The Green Faction died. The Blacks are all that survived. The Blackfyres and current Targaryens are made of of the Black faction from the Dance. 

What does that have to do with the Blackfyre split? The greens didn't have anything to do with Maegor the Cruel.  

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aegon IV didn't give Daemon Blackfyre due to him being the rightfully chosen Heir. Aegon IV never amended his will. So Aegon IV [might] have been looking for TPTWP [based on my pure speculation]. Other wise he had the power to name Daemon Heir. He legitimatized him, but doesn't name him heir.  

There, I fixed that for you. ;)

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But anything is possible i guess. 

 No, not anything. 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I will give you that Bittersteel didn't die till 241. So any kid by him would be 59 during the current story. Seems a little old for Varys given how easily he gets around like a water dancer. I put Varys in his 40's more likely. So your Serra would have to be the grand daughter of Calla. 

It was Illyrio's Serra, not mine. In any event, I would suspect any of our current Blackfyres are likely great grandchildren or even great, great grandchildren of Daemon. Daemon was of an age with Maekar, Daenerys's great, great grandfather. 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also, if female line mattered, wouldn't Bloodraven had been killing them too. Guy was pretty efficient. I dont think he would have let that slide. 

If the female line doesn't matter why do folks want to wed Arya and Sansa? And after whacking Aenys Blackfyre, Bloodraven was sent to the Wall. 

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17 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I dont think Dany is barren either

I'm absolutely sure that she isn't infertile. Because of this:

Quote

When she woke, gasping, her thighs were slick with blood.

For a moment she did not realize what it was. The world had just begun to lighten, and the tall grass rustled softly in the wind. No, please, let me sleep some more. I’m so tired. She tried to burrow back beneath the pile of grass she had torn up when she went to sleep. Some of the stalks felt wet. Had it rained again? She sat up, afraid that she had soiled herself as she slept. When she brought her fingers to her face, she could smell the blood on them. Am I dying? Then she saw the pale crescent moon, floating high above the grass, and it came to her that this was no more than her moon blood.

If she had not been so sick and scared, that might have come as a relief. Instead she began to shiver violently. She rubbed her fingers through the dirt, and grabbed a handful of grass to wipe between her legs. The dragon does not weep. She was bleeding, but it was only woman’s blood. The moon is still a crescent, though. How can that be? She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? The one before that? No, it cannot have been so long as that.

I think she was bleeding, more than usual during her period, because she had a miscarriage. She was pregnant from Daario, and term of her pregnancy was 6-10 weeks. Could be that she had miscarriage because of those green berries. Or because of drinking bad water, or not having enough food.

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52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Quotes are from some one else talking to him unfortunately hahah im not sure what question i would throw at George hahah Hmmm. I dont think Dany is barren either :) and absolutely!! Let me know what you think :) 

Thank you so much; I need to give it all a proper read and bear in mind that I am not super well versed with pre series stuff although I don't mind it :)

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28 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I'm absolutely sure that she isn't infertile. Because of this:

I think she was bleeding, more than usual during her period, because she had a miscarriage. She was pregnant from Daario, and term of her pregnancy was 6-10 weeks. Could be that she had miscarriage because of those green berries. Or because of drinking bad water, or not having enough food.

I guess any of that or neither; still nowadays we cannot explain every miscarriage; now Mirri didn't tell Dany, say that she would not have periods, or even get pregnant, just that she would not carry a child to term... if the interpretation can be taken literally...My personal view is that she tried to convinced her or that nothing else; now we know she still has her periods and can conceive...  I challenge that witch to the contrary!

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50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

They provide the motivation for the antagonists to Daenerys the protagonist in the second of the three main conflicts of ASOIAF.

They provide a possible one if Dany perceives them as one. Though this is part of the confusion brought on by her misunderstanding of Quiathes warning and Tyrions manipulations. Other wise, he wouldnt be one. He would be an ally. So your a little off with your black and white view. 

50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What the heck are "secret dargon hatchers?" Jon isn't going to hatch any dragons but he is the prince that was promised. Daenerys is the Mother of dragons. I don't see any more dragonlets hatching, unless maybe one hatches from egg in the crib of her son at the very end of the tale. 

Im not sure either, a retarded variant? haha jk i know it was a misspell. Again, your trying to make it black and white to fit your view when it's not. Daenerys is the apparent mother of dragons. And? That changes absolutely nothing about the intentions of her ancestors to hatch dragons and be the one to do it. Like Aegon V. Since Aegon III they've been searching for a dragon hatcher or the means with which to do it. So yes, it's very important to the over all plot

 

50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

What does that have to do with the Blackfyre split? The greens didn't have anything to do with Maegor the Cruel. 

I have no idea why your bringing up Maegor? Lost me there

And it has everything to to with the Blackfyre spit. Literally everything. 
Again. Targaryen's were looking to hatch dragons. Aegon IV certainly wanted dragons. 

He gave Daemon the sword Blackfyre and legitimized him, yet never named him heir. When he could have. Aegon IV was not interested in Daemon as his heir. So he had to be interested in him as TPTWP and or the means to hatch dragons. Aegon was obviously wrong, but hardly the first or the last.

50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

There, I fixed that for you. ;)

Please dont. You want to express you opinions then write them up. Dont twist my words to suit your agenda thank you. How rude. Jk

 

50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It was Illyrio's Serra, not mine. In any event, I would suspect any of our current Blackfyres are likely great grandchildren or even great, great grandchildren of Daemon. Daemon was of an age with Maekar, Daenerys's great, great grandfather. 

Your theory. And yea ok, so again, your speculating about imaginary people we dont know to exist and claiming its more solid than my speculation. Right. 

 

50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If the female line doesn't matter why do folks want to wed Arya and Sansa? And after whacking Aenys Blackfyre, Bloodraven was sent to the Wall. 

Who the heck want's to marry Arya? Where are you getting this from? No one wants to marry Arya. The Boltons use a fake Arya and line out a marriage because its believed she is the last of her line. So marrying her is a way to take her house under new control while claiming decent from that ancient house. As in Orys Baratheon. Its more for show usually than anything especially in the real world. 

Again, Peter wants to marry Sansa as he believes she's the only Stark alive. Also may just have a creep obsession for her mother. Your forgetting this is a feudal system where these kind of things do matter out side of magical reasons. Also seem to be forgetting the way genes work. Any child of Robb, Bran or Rickon would not carry Catelyns Mitachondrial DNA. No more than any son of Arya or Sansa would retain the Y of House Stark. They may have some blood, but not the part that matters. What your talking about is an arbitrary view people have of blood lines and lineal claims. 

Let me give you an example. By your logic,  If dragon genes are passed on through the female line, then House Hightower should be dragon Hatchers from Rhaella marrying a Hightower. (grandchild of Aenys I). 

Yet, we know they are not dragon hatchers. So that really kills your argument that that's what was going on. 

Which brings me back to the idea that binding dragons to your blood was something that had to be regularly done. As the Targaryen did hatch from generation to generation as far as we can tell. Though it may skip one or two generations. Hard to tell in the tree who was doing the actual hatching and such.

Unlike the Stark warging gene which seems to skip large generations as only 1 in such in such can be a skinchanger and only 1 and such and such of them can be a greenseerer. and of the skin changers, only some are wargs. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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14 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Thank you so much; I need to give it all a proper read and bear in mind that I am not super well versed with pre series stuff although I don't mind it :)

Absolutely. Took me a while to catch up on the bulk of histories he's laid out and im still gleaning more :)

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39 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I'm absolutely sure that she isn't infertile. Because of this:

I think she was bleeding, more than usual during her period, because she had a miscarriage. She was pregnant from Daario, and term of her pregnancy was 6-10 weeks. Could be that she had miscarriage because of those green berries. Or because of drinking bad water, or not having enough food.

Right :) The Sun has set in the east. Quentyn. The mountains have blown in the wind like leaves, the crumbling pyramids. The seas go dry- The Silver Sea has dried up to become the dothraki sea. Or when Dany pulls all the Dothraki from it. And she has had her period. 

Only then will Drogo return? Or the Stallion who mounts the world?

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9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

They provide a possible one if Dany perceives them as one. Though this is part of the confusion brought on by her misunderstanding of Quiathes warning and Tyrions manipulations. Other wise, he wouldnt be one. He would be an ally. So your a little off with your black and white view. 

Im not sure either, a retarded variant? haha jk i know it was a misspell. Again, your trying to make it black and white to fit your view when it's not. Daenerys is the apparent mother of dragons. And? That changes absolutely nothing about the intentions of her ancestors to hatch dragons and be the one to do it. Like Aegon V. Since Aegon III they've been searching for a dragon hatcher or the means with which to do it. So yes, it's very important to the over all plot

 

I have no idea why your bringing up Maegor? Lost me there

And it has everything to to with the Blackfyre spit. Literally everything. 
Again. Targaryen's were looking to hatch dragons. Aegon IV certainly wanted dragons. 

He gave Daemon the sword Blackfyre and legitimized him, yet never named him heir. When he could have. Aegon IV was not interested in Daemon as his heir. So he had to be interested in him as TPTWP and or the means to hatch dragons. Aegon was obviously wrong, but hardly the first or the last.

Please dont. You want to express you opinions then write them up. Dont twist my words to suit your agenda thank you. How rude. Jk

 

Your theory. And yea ok, so again, your speculating about imaginary people we dont know to exist and claiming its more solid than my speculation. Right. 

 

Who the heck want's to marry Arya? Where are you getting this from? No one wants to marry Arya. The Boltons use a fake Arya and line out a marriage because its believed she is the last of her line. So marrying her is a way to take her house under new control while claiming decent from that ancient house. As in Orys Baratheon. Its more for show usually than anything especially in the real world. 

Again, Peter wants to marry Sansa as he believes she's the only Stark alive. Also may just have a creep obsession for her mother. Your forgetting this is a feudal system where these kind of things do matter out side of magical reasons. Also seem to be forgetting the way genes work. Any child of Robb, Bran or Rickon would not carry Catelyns Mitachondrial DNA. No more than any son of Arya or Sansa would retain the Y of House Stark. They may have some blood, but not the part that matters. What your talking about is an arbitrary view people have of blood lines and lineal claims. 

Let me give you an example. By your logic,  If dragon genes are passed on through the female line, then House Hightower should be dragon Hatchers from Rhaella marrying a Hightower. (grandchild of Aenys I). 

Yet, we know they are not dragon hatchers. So that really kills your argument that that's what was going on. 

Which brings me back to the idea that binding dragons to your blood was something that had to be regularly done. As the Targaryen did hatch from generation to generation as far as we can tell. Though it may skip one or two generations. Hard to tell in the tree who was doing the actual hatching and such.

Unlike the Stark warging gene which seems to skip large generations as only 1 in such in such can be a skinchanger and only 1 and such and such of them can be a greenseerer. and of the skin changers, only some are wargs. 

Funny how two different people can read the same 6,000 pages and have such different understandings of the tale being told. 

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Funny how two different people can read the same 6,000 pages and have such different understandings of the tale being told. 

Lol truth. It is funny how people do see completely different things. It will be both fun and sad to finally know the answers haha

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And why would Darry let Varys and Illyrio paint his door red?? I get the symbolism your going for but i dont think Darry would have been ok with that lol also i dont think they would want their door announcing who they were. 

Children didn't knew. But Willem was working for Blackfyres. The entire house was property of Varys, bought and given to Willem, to raise there Targaryens.

As I already wrote before, Blackfyres were planning to use Viserys to get to Iron Throne. But when he was 13, and Dany was 5, they changed their mind, and instead decided to make another plan - fAegon, supposedly surviving son of Rhaegar Targaryen. But because Willem got attached to those children, he would have never betrayed them, thus Varys and Illyrio poisoned him. And then their spies convinced Viserys, that Robert's assassins are after him and Dany, and thus made them to be on constant run from imaginary enemies. But all that time, Varys' people were still watching over Targaryens, and following their every step. Varys decided not to use Viserys for conquering 7K, though he still didn't killed Targaryens, because he thought that maybe later they may become useful to him. I think he planned that after Dany's wedding with Khal Drogo, Viserys will die in Vaes Dothrak, and then he will introduce fAegon to Dany. And of course she will support her nephew, with his conquest of 7K, and her and Drogo's Dothraki will join with Golden Company to attack Westeros.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Reds and Blacks you speak of all come from Aegon III. The family half that already lost dragons. So the Blackfyres are useless. Daena doesn't' come from the line of Aegon II so no restoration in House Blackfyre. 

Though it's possible that Varys and Serra, are not only descendants of Calla Blackfyre and Aegor Rivers, but also descendants of Saera Targaryen. And here's why:

Saera left her family, went to Essos, lived for some time in Lys, and then became owner of a pleasure house in Volantis (? or maybe Braavos, not sure).

GRRM is frequently using in his works repetitive patterns. For example:

1. Bellegere Otherys (daughter of Sealord's son and the princess of Summer Isles, mistress of Aegon IV) - her daughter Bellenora (courtesan Black Pearl of Braavos) - her granddaughter Bellonara (also courtesan) - her great granddaughter Bellegere Otherys (also courtesan).

2. Chataya (owner of upscale whorehouse in King's Landing) - her daughter Alayaya (works as a prostitute in her mother's establishment).

3. Xhobar Qhoqua (exiled prince from Summer Isles, and one of Ninepenny Kings from last Rebellion of Blackfyres) - Jalabhar Xho (also exiled prince from Summer Isles).

4. Samarro Saan (pirate from Lys, one of Ninepenny Kings) - Salladhor Saan (also pirate).

So based on similarities between names (Chataya - Alayaya, Xhobar Qhoqua - Jalabhar Xho, Samarro - Salladhor), their professions, and their cities/homeland, it's logical to assume that, same as in case with Bellegere Otherys and her descendants, and Chataya and her daughter, most likely exiled prince from Summer Isles Jalabhar Xho, is a descendant of Ninepenny King Xhobar Qhoqua, and pirate Salladhor Saan is a descendant of Ninepenny King pirate Samarro Saan, and a courtesan from pillow house in Lys Serra Blackfyre is a descendant of Saera Targaryen, that lived for some time in Lys, and then became owner of pleasure house in some other city.

Saera Targaryen was daughter of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryen. When she escaped to Essos, and Jaehaerys was already old and dying, he was often confusing Alicent Hingtower, the Queen of Greens, with his wayward daughter Saera. And Targaryens still had dragons at the time of his reign.

P.S. And also that Sallandor Saan and Jalabhar Xho are working for Blackfyres/Varys.

And same as during Second Rebellion of Blackfyres, Daemon II and his supporters were using Tournament/wedding at Whitewalls, as their cover, people that now work for Blackfyres do the same. Thus Balon Swann and Anguy is also working for Varys. And most likely it was Varys (or Illyrio) who have sent Anguy to Riverlands, to spy after the Brotherhood without banners. 

And parallel between Balon Swann being close to Tyrion, when he was assaulted by Mandon Moore, and Gerold Dayne attacking Myrcella, means that Gerold Dayne is also working for Varys. Both attacks on Lannisters were ordered by Varys. And the point of those attacks was the same as what Varys was doing with Aerys and Rhaegar, he was trying to clash family members against each other. As Julius Caesar said - Divide and conquer.

Edited by Megorova

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9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Children didn't knew. But Willem was working for Blackfyres. The entire house was property of Varys, bought and given to Willem, to raise there Targaryens.

As I already wrote before, Blackfyres were planning to use Viserys to get to Iron Throne. But when he was 13, and Dany was 5, they changed their mind, and instead decided to make another plan - fAegon, supposedly surviving son of Rhaegar Targaryen. But because Willem got attached to those children, he would have never betrayed them, thus Varys and Illyrio poisoned him. And then their spies convinced Viserys, that Robert's assassins are after him and Dany, and thus made them to be on constant run from imaginary enemies. But all that time, Varys' people were still watching over Targaryens, and following their every step. Varys decided not to use Viserys for conquering 7K, though he still didn't killed Targaryens, because he thought that maybe later they may become useful to him. I think he planned that after Dany's wedding with Khal Drogo, Viserys will die in Vaes Dothrak, and then he will introduce fAegon to Dany. And of course she will support her nephew, with his conquest of 7K, and her and Drogo's Dothraki will join with Golden Company to attack Westeros.

Though it's possible that Varys and Serra, are not only descendants of Calla Blackfyre and Aegor Rivers, but also descendants of Saera Targaryen. And here's why:

Saera left her family, went to Essos, lived for some time in Lys, and then became owner of a pleasure house in Volantis (? or maybe Braavos, not sure).

GRRM is frequently using in his works repetitive patterns. For example:

1. Bellegere Otherys (daughter of Sealord's son and the princess of Summer Isles, mistress of Aegon IV) - her daughter Bellenora (courtesan Black Pearl of Braavos) - her granddaughter Bellonara (also courtesan) - her great granddaughter Bellegere Otherys (also courtesan).

2. Chataya (owner of upscale whorehouse in King's Landing) - her daughter Alayaya (works as a prostitute in her mother's establishment).

3. Xhobar Qhoqua (exiled prince from Summer Isles, and one of Ninepenny Kings from last Rebellion of Blackfyres) - Jalabhar Xho (also exiled prince from Summer Isles).

4. Samarro Saan (pirate from Lys, one of Ninepenny Kings) - Salladhor Saan (also pirate).

So based on similarities between names (Chataya - Alayaya, Xhobar Qhoqua - Jalabhar Xho, Samarro - Salladhor) and their professions, it's logical to assume that, same as in case with Bellegere Otherys and her descendants, and Chataya and her daughter, most likely exiled prince from Summer Isles Jalabhar Xho, is a descendant of Ninepenny King Xhobar Qhoqua, and pirate Salladhor Saan is a descendant of Ninepenny King pirate Samarro Saan, and a courtesan from pillow house in Lys Serra Blackfyre is a descendant of Saera Targaryen, that lived for some time in Lys, and then became owner of pleasure house in some other city.

Saera Targaryen was daughter of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryen. When she escaped to Essos, and Jaehaerys was already old and dying, he was often confusing Alicent Hingtower, the Queen of Greens, with his wayward daughter Saera. And Targaryens still had dragons at the time of his reign.

P.S. And also that Sallandor Saan and Jalabhar Xho are working for Blackfyres/Varys.

And same as during Second Rebellion of Blackfyres, Daemon II and his supporters were using Tournament/wedding at Whitewalls, as their cover, people that now work for Blackfyres do the same. Thus Balon Swann and Anguy is also working for Varys. And most likely it was Varys (or Illyrio) who have sent Anguy to Riverlands, to spy after the Brotherhood without banners. 

And parallel between Balon Swann being close to Tyrion, when he was assaulted by Mandon Moore, and Gerold Dayne attacking Myrcella, means that Gerold Dayne is also working for Varys. Both attacks on Lannisters were ordered by Varys. And the point of those attacks was the same as what Varys was doing with Aerys and Rhaegar, he was trying to clash family members against each other. As Julius Caesar said - Divide and conquer.

Why would they change their plans though when Dany was 5? When they had Aegon that whole 5 years?

 

As far as Saera, maybe. I like the openness to looking else where :) 

I my self have thrown out children of Prince Duncan and Jenny of Oldstone who died at Summerhal where Rhaegar was born in 259ac. Though they hooked up 20 years before in 239ac.

I could totally see children of Duncan and Jenny being lost in the confusion of the fire and taken and sold into slavery. 

Keep in mind Jenny brought the woods witch responsible for Rhaegar's birth to Aerys and Rhaella through prophecy to Jaehaerys II.

Jenny and Duncan must have thought the same as the Woods Witch. So any children of Duncan and Jenny may also share the same thoughts.

Varys claims to protect Rhaegars true son.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Varys claims to protect Rhaegars true son.

Why would Varys be protecting son of Rhaegar, or any other Targaryen? Why would he care about Targaryens at all? Also why specifically only Rhaegar's son, and not his daughter? If Varys really cared about Targaryens, and he had an opportunity to spirit away Rhaegar's son, then why haven't he done the same for Rhaegar's daughter and his wife?

Which proves that he didn't saved anyone, and fAegon is not Rhaegar's son.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would they change their plans though when Dany was 5? When they had Aegon that whole 5 years?

First of all, he is not Aegon. They didn't had Aegon that whole 5 years, not even for a minute. Aegon died in Red Keep in 283.

Original plan was changed because of Viserys. Because he turned out to be unfit as leader. And maybe then in 288/289 happened something else. Something because of which Blackfyres had to change their plans even more.

I think that original plan was to raise Targaryens (Dany and Viserys) under control of Blackfyres. Then eventually they planned to bring together Viserys and Jon Connington. JonCon was supposed to command Golden Company. And Viserys was supposed to rally support of Westerosian lords. Probably they also planned to marry either Viserys with Arianne, or Dany with one of Martell boys, to get support from Dorne. So original plan was invasion of Blackfyres into 7K, while using Viserys as their poster boy. Golden Company under command of JonCon, Dornish troops under command of Viserys, and 7K's lords, still loyal to Targaryens, were going to join them on their march towards King's Landing, to defeat the Usurper and end his reign.

But then Blackfyres had to change their plans, and decided to use plan fAegon, miraculously saved from death, son of Rhaegar Targaryen. At that time, in Illyrio's mansion was raised a Blackfyre little boy, that had Valyrian features, and was approximately of the same age as Rhaegar's deceased son Aegon. Though he wasn't Illyrio's son, he was Varys' relative, one of Blackfyres. It was this boy's presense in Illyrio's house, that inspired Varys to create a fAegon project. They took the boy, and brought him to JonCon, and introduced him as Rhaegar's son Aegon.

I think that Quaithe is actually Shiera Seastar, and that Barristan Selmy is her son, and fAegon is Barristan's son. While fAegon's mother is Septa Lemore, who is actually Lady Jeyne Swann. When Jeyne became pregnant from Barristan, she came to Essos, and was living there with her son, in Illyrio's mansion. Because the baby was Quaithe's grandson, and Quaithe is also somehow connected with Blackfyres, thus she and Varys are bloodrelated (she is his great great aunt, thru his grandmother's side, and his great great great aunt thru his grandfather's side). The boy was Varys' relative, that's why he was living in a house of his closest friend and confidante.

So he just happened to be there, when Varys and Illyrio realised that Plan A (Viserys as their general) is going to be a failure, and when they were thinking what to do now, they saw this boy, noticed his silver-gold hair and indigo eyes, and suddenly got enlightened. They decided instead of Viserys, to present to JonCon supposedly saved by them son of Rhaegar Targaryen. And the boy's mother agreed to it, because they promised to her, that she can stay with him. Or maybe stay away from him for some time, but later she will be able to join him and JonCon, and to stay close to him, posing as his septa.

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11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Why would Varys be protecting son of Rhaegar, or any other Targaryen? Why would he care about Targaryens at all? Also why specifically only Rhaegar's son, and not his daughter? If Varys really cared about Targaryens, and he had an opportunity to spirit away Rhaegar's son, then why haven't he done the same for Rhaegar's daughter and his wife?

Which proves that he didn't saved anyone, and fAegon is not Rhaegar's son.

That's hardly logical. 

Varys can hardly be expected to be able to pull off everything smoothly. Rhaenys wasn't even where she was supposed to be if i recall. 

Varys does warn Aeyrs not to open the gates to Tywin, trying to save him. What are you talking about? Varys protects Aerys from Rhaegar possibly starting a civil war also. Or ties to. 

Varys then protects Rhaegars innocent son. Which he even tells a dying Kevan. And when talking of Rhaenys to Eddard, leaves out Aegon dying. The dude is pretty consistent really.

So by your logic, because Varys couldn't save as many people as Duncan the Tall (Vays look like Aegon V, so nice parallel) than he obviously wan't trying to save any. So if Duncan had only managed to save one person, you would make the same baseless argument? Seems kind of harsh but ok.

And why wouldn't he have your F/aegon yet? Where did this kid come from? lol Especially if the kid is Illyrios and Serra's lmao. I just cant lol Storks i guess. Or as you theorize, they just kept some Valyrian kid around on the back burner being schooled and stuff while they played their cards with Dany and Viserys and Willem Darry i guess? In Dorne? or where might this be happening? Pentos? 

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Quaithe is actually Shiera Seastar, and that Barristan Selmy is her son, and fAegon is Barristan's son.

Well that's certainly new. Im not sure Barristan has been with a woman though.. least of all after or around the war. idkkkk

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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Where did this kid come from? lol Especially if the kid is Illyrios and Serra's lmao. I just cant lol Storks i guess. Or as you theorize, they just kept some Valyrian kid around on the back burner being schooled and stuff while they played their cards with Dany and Viserys and Willem Darry i guess? In Dorne? or where might this be happening? Pentos? 

I think that the kid is not Illyrio's and Serra's.

And I don't theorize that "they just kept some Valyrian kid around on the back burner being schooled and stuff while they played their cards with Dany and Viserys and Willem Darry".

Lets assume that Varys is a Blackfyre, and that Illyrio isn't. The year is 278. Varys went to Westeros, to prepare 7K for an upcoming invasion of Blackfyres. Thus where would he left his Blackfyre relatives, while he will be away from Essos? -> Under Illyrio's care.

And by relatives I don't mean his immediate family, like his children (which he doesn't have), or nephews or nieces (which he also didn't had), but for example his little cousins (first cousin, or second cousin, or third cousin, or even little uncle).

They decided to use the boy, only after their original plan got canceled. So before they changed to plan B, fAegon was living (probably) in one of Illyrio's mansions (in whatever city, because he has many - in Pentos, Lys, Tyrosh, Braavos, maybe even more). The boy was one of Blackfyres, thus he was given a proper upraising, even prior he was turned into fAegon. And when he was brought to JonCon, and maybe in conversation with him said something wrong, for example that he wants to go back to his mommy, then Varys and Illyrio could have just told to JonCon, that the boy think, that the wet nurse (or septa) that was raising him, is his mommy. 

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well that's certainly new. Im not sure Barristan has been with a woman though.. least of all after or around the war.

In 281 Barristan saved Jeyne Swann and her septa from Kingswood brotherhood. If fAegon is of the same age as should be real Aegon, then he was conceived after that encounter, in 281, and was born in late 281 or in early (or middle of) 282.

Could be that the mother is Lady Jeyne, but maybe the mother is actually Jeyne's septa. Though that woman was not a mere septa, could be that she was one of secret Blackfyres.

If fAegon was born later than in 281 or 282, then could be that Barristan again met either Lady Jeyne or her septa, after he was seriously wounded at the Trident Battle. He had three very serious wounds, thus he was recovering for a long time. Who knows who could have came to him at that time, and what the two of them were doing. After Rhaegar's death he was depressed, so he could have been in need of some consolation.

Also fAegon could have been conceived by Barristan, in 283, some time after Rhaegar's death, or even in early 284 (if Barristan was recovering for a long time). And thus fAegon could have been born in early 284 or late 284. So by now (300 AC) he could be 16 years old.

Also Barristan was interested in women, Ashara Dayne is a proof of that. Furthermore, even if he was not interested in Lady Jeyne, his agreement is totally unnecessary for her, to conceive a child with him. As I already said before, GRRM is frequently using repetitive patterns. For example there was a story like this (Dunk & Egg, The Sworn Sword):

Quote

"You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?"

"Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty. And once my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I'd marry her instead of my sister Daella."

Egg spoke as if such incest was the most natural thing in the world. For him it is. The Targaryens had been marrying brother to sister for hundreds of years, to keep the blood of the dragon pure. Though the last actual dragon had died before Dunk was born, the dragonkings went on. Maybe the gods don't mind them marrying their sisters. "Did the potion work?" Dunk asked.

"It would have," said Egg, "but I spit it out."

So could be that she gave a love potion to Barristan, to seduce him, and conceive a child with him. Because, if my theory is correct, that Barristan is also a dragonblood, and Blackfyres needed to have a child with high percentage of dragonblood, then they just used Barristan. And he himself may not even remember anything about that encounter, because of side effect caused by potion.

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Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IV

"Family, Duty, Honor," he echoed. "All of which required you to remain in Winterfell, where our Hand left you. No, my lady, something has happened. This sudden trip of yours bespeaks a certain urgency. I beg of you, let me help. Old sweet friends should never hesitate to rely upon each other." There was a soft knock on the door. "Enter," Littlefinger called out.
The man who stepped through the door was plump, perfumed, powdered, and as hairless as an egg. He wore a vest of woven gold thread over a loose gown of purple silk, and on his feet were pointed slippers of soft velvet. "Lady Stark," he said, taking her hand in both of his, "to see you again after so many years is such a joy." His flesh was soft and moist, and his breath smelled of lilacs. "Oh, your poor hands. Have you burned yourself, sweet lady? The fingers are so delicate … Our good Maester Pycelle makes a marvelous salve, shall I send for a jar?"

 

 
 
 
So i thought this an interesting introduction to Varys, wayyyyyyy before Blackfyres were ever mentioned. 
Varys is described as looking like an Egg. Which is a clue in it self pointing him towards dragon eggs, but also a clue to him looking like Aegon V "Egg" Targaryen.
Further than that he is wearing purple silks with gold woven in the threads. This is very Targaryenish and very much the colors of the House and features. 
Further, his breath smelled of lilacs?
Of all the flowers, a purple flower?
This seems like a lot of clues that Varys is indeed a Targaryen and not a Blackfyre. 

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