What cultural impact could there be from Robert dismissing Cersi for Margary?

[Varysblackfyre321]

Like, there doesn't seem to be yet a concept for divorce in Westeroes; oaths are seen as sacrosanct and the basis for how noble families consolidate alliances.

I think the only way they(Renly and the Tyrells) could have planned  go about this should Margary have smitten Robert would be to go to the highsepton to get the oaths nullified what but would be the fallout from such a thing? 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

I never understood this plan either.  I guess that they were going with the idea that the King had absolute power. The faith doesn't have near as much influence in Westeros as it had in the real world Middle Ages.

Seemed like a shit storm in the making. Lord Tywin would not have taken this lightly. 

[The South Forgets]

I think that men could put aside their wives. Robert never liked Cersei anyway and he could put aside her if he wanted to. And of course Lord Tywin would be affronted, but being the pragmatist that he is, he would not rise against the entire realm alone but wait for a civil war

[Varysblackfyre321]

37 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

I never understood this plan either.  I guess that they were going with the idea that the King had absolute power. The faith doesn't have near as much influence in Westeros as it had in the real world Middle Ages.

Seemed like a shit storm in the making. Lord Tywin would not have taken this lightly. 

The high septon does seem to have the ability to nullify oaths however; you know speaking for the gods and all that; hell it'd bounced around that such a thing could even be used as justification for releasing Aemon from the watch

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Maybe they just wanted Margaery to become Robert's mistress, have him fall in love with her so he would listen to what she whispered into his ear. In theory she could suggest new members for the Small Council/City Watch/KG/ect. and fill King's Landing with Tyrells and their supporters. Then when Robert croaked the Tyrells would be in a prime position to put Renly on the Throne and then marry him to Margaery. Renly could put the remaining Lannisters under lock and key like he wanted to do with Eddard. All believed possible because of how much Bob moaned about his lost love Lyanna. Renly and company thought Margaery could be Robert's new Lyanna.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The high septon does seem to have the ability to nullify oaths however; you know speaking for the gods and all that; hell it'd bounced around that such a thing could even be used as justification for releasing Aemon from the watch

True. I think this is a way to make it look "official."

[Angel Eyes]

Setting aside a wife that's still alive has almost never been done in the history of Westeros, with the exception of Daena Targaryen. Of the Queens of the Seven Kingdoms:

• Rhaenys Targaryen: MIA/KIA in 10 AC.
• Visenya Targaryen: Outlived her husband Aegon the Conqueror, died 44 AC.
• Alyssa Velaryon: Outlived her husband Aenys I; Married Robar Baratheon c. 50 AC.
• Ceryse Hightower: Died in 45 AC under mysterious circumstances.
• Alys Harroway: Tortured to death in 44 AC by Tyanna of the Tower after giving birth to a dead lizard.
• Tyanna of the Tower: Heart cut out by Maegor I in 48 AC.
• Elinor Costayne: Gave birth to a dead lizard; Outlived Maegor.
• Jeyne Westerling I: Died giving birth to a dead lizard in 48 AC.
• Rhaena Targaryen: Outlived Maegor.
• Alysanne Targaryen/Good Queen Alysanne: Died 99 or 100 AC of natural causes.
• Aemma Arryn: Died in childbirth in 105 AC.
• Alicent Hightower: Outlived Viserys I; Died in 133 AC during the Winter Fever.
• Helaena Targaryen: Fell from Maegor’s Holdfast and impaled on spikes.
• Jaehaera Targaryen: Fell from Maegor's Holdfast and impaled on spikes in 133 AC. Either committed suicide or was pushed.
• Daenaera Velaryon: Fate unknown.
• Daena Targaryen: Set aside by her husband, Baelor the Blessed/Beloved/Befuddled. Fate unknown after 171 AC.
• Naerys Targaryen: Died in between 179-184 AC in childbirth.
• Mariah Martell: Fate unknown.
• Aelinor Penrose: Fate unknown.
• Betha Blackwood: Fate unknown. 
• Shaera Targaryen: Died after 259 AC.
• Rhaella Targaryen: Outlived Aerys II. Died giving birth to Daenerys Targaryen in 284 AC.

So apart from the ridiculously pious Baelor, no king has set aside his queen

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe they just wanted Margaery to become Robert's mistress, have him fall in love with her so he would listen to what she whispered into his ear. In theory she could suggest new members for the Small Council/City Watch/KG/ect. and fill King's Landing with Tyrells and their supporters. Then when Robert croaked the Tyrells would be in a prime position to put Renly on the Throne and then marry him to Margaery. Renly could put the remaining Lannisters under lock and key like he wanted to do with Eddard. All believed possible because of how much Bob moaned about his lost love Lyanna. Renly and company thought Margaery could be Robert's new Lyanna.

Depends on whether or not they could make Robert fall for Margaery. 

[zandru]

I had been under the impression that Renly, like his brother Stannis, was aware of (and maybe taking part in) uncovering the evidence that none of Cersei's children were related to Robert. In this case, the plan would have been to bring Margaery into King's Landing, reveal Cersei as an incestuous whore, get the marriage annulled and the golden-haired bastards sent back to Casterly Rock with their scheming mother, then marry Robert to Margaery. Dismissing Jaime from the King's Guard would have been the cherry on top, since now he'd be available as the heir to the Rock, just as Tywin had always dreamed, and this would soften the blow of Cersei's disgrace and dismissal. Plus, the grandchildren would now be in his hands, giving Tywin a chance to do better with this round of children than he had with his own.

[Angel Eyes]

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

I had been under the impression that Renly, like his brother Stannis, was aware of (and maybe taking part in) uncovering the evidence that none of Cersei's children were related to Robert. In this case, the plan would have been to bring Margaery into King's Landing, reveal Cersei as an incestuous whore, get the marriage annulled and the golden-haired bastards sent back to Casterly Rock with their scheming mother, then marry Robert to Margaery. Dismissing Jaime from the King's Guard would have been the cherry on top, since now he'd be available as the heir to the Rock, just as Tywin had always dreamed, and this would soften the blow of Cersei's disgrace and dismissal. Plus, the grandchildren would now be in his hands, giving Tywin a chance to do better with this round of children than he had with his own.

So how would Renly get Jaime dismissed from the Kingsguard? And what evidence is there that Renly knew? 

Speaking of which, how did Stannis figure out that Robert’s “children” were not actually Robert’s? For example, did he know just by looking at them and not say anything for 12-13 years? 

[The Sunland Lord]

War. I see no other outcome. 

[zandru]

56 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So how would Renly get Jaime dismissed from the Kingsguard? And what evidence is there that Renly knew? 

Speaking of which, how did Stannis figure out that Robert’s “children” were not actually Robert’s? For example, did he know just by looking at them and not say anything for 12-13 years? 

Evidence - well, as I said, it was my assumption that Renly had a good idea of what his brother was into. That's the speculation part. Stannis accompanied Jon Arryn on his Tour of the Bastards in King's Landing, as Ned learned. That Stannis knew was obvious from his raven-missive to all the lords and towns of Westeros describing the incest; remember, Stannis never got Ned's letter. Cersei intercepted it. Moreover, after Jon's suspicious death, Stannis lost no time returning to Dragonstone and began building up a fleet.

How did Jon Arryn and Stannis figure it out? Remember that pedigree book they'd been reading, which Ned also studied. Baratheons apparently bred true for being "black of hair" in spite of the coloring of the other partner. Robert had innumerable bastards, and each one that could be identified shared the black hair. Meanwhile, Joff, Myrcella and Tommen had the Lannister golden curls and green eyes - every one of them.

I apologize for repeating what you undoubtedly already knew.

How would Renly get Jaime dismissed? By telling King Robert what Jaime and Cersei had been doing right in front of him. Heck, Renly would have to had pleaded for Robert to spare Jaime, letting him know that by so doing, he'd keep Tywin off his back. Robert clearly resented Jaime, even though he had kept him on after Jaime had killed his previous King. Doing so gave Robert the throne, so some gratitude might have been in order, but you'd never trust a man who turned traitor not to do it again. Robert would have been glad to dismiss Jaime from his vows and see the back of him. As I noted, the hard part would have been keeping Robert from killing him.

As you noted, the interesting part was the timing. I'm sure there was some suspicion by the time Myrcella was born (TWO golden-haired children!) and Tommen was the icing on the cake. But motive to actually investigate their parentage, aka potential Lannister treachery, had to have other motivations. What moves was Tywin making? Was Cersei exerting too much influence on carefree, drink-befuddled Robert? Or, more likely, what was Petyr Baelish doing to cast suspicion on House Lannister?

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I had been under the impression that Renly, like his brother Stannis, was aware of (and maybe taking part in) uncovering the evidence that none of Cersei's children were related to Robert. In this case, the plan would have been to bring Margaery into King's Landing, reveal Cersei as an incestuous whore, get the marriage annulled and the golden-haired bastards sent back to Casterly Rock with their scheming mother, then marry Robert to Margaery. Dismissing Jaime from the King's Guard would have been the cherry on top, since now he'd be available as the heir to the Rock, just as Tywin had always dreamed, and this would soften the blow of Cersei's disgrace and dismissal. Plus, the grandchildren would now be in his hands, giving Tywin a chance to do better with this round of children than he had with his own.

If Robert found out he'd been cuckholded by his wife's own twin and his own body guard he will not send Cersi and her children away and dismiss Jamie; he will destroy them as well as house lanister. Tywin wouldn't give a shit about Cersi's kids; they'd be viewed as pure abominations.

Renly did not know. 

None of what his actions or what he says give really any credence to the idea of him having known of the twincest; why not bring it up to Robert, why not bring it up to Ned for when he's investigating Arryn's death even when he's trying to take the kids hostage why act as though the twincest is news to him when he meets up with his elder brother? 

[Myrish Lace]

13 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

why not bring it up to Robert

Because If Renly brings it up to Robert without a replacement Queen, Renly will gain nothing from the change. Even more disturbingly, if Robert dies somehow during turbulent time of anti-Lannister transition, Stannis would be the next King and that prospect inspires zero enthusiasm in Renly and his Tyrell benefactors.

Positioning Margaery in the court to take over once Cersei and her kids are gone is the choice that benefits Renly and Tyrells much more than just running to Robert or Jon.

17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

why not bring it up to Ned for when he's investigating Arryn's death

The same reason. Renly and Tyrells are not yet in position to exploit the fallout from Lannisters' fall.

18 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

why act as though the twincest is news to him when he meets up with his elder brother? 

It makes him look better. In their conversation, Renly tries to spin Stannis as a jealous uncle who spins a story to make himself heir ahead of Robert's kids. If Stannis is a liar, he can claim no precedence over Renly as they would be both trying to seize the throne by force ahead of other heirs. But if Stannis speaks the truth about incest, then Stannis has a moral high ground and better claim and Renly has no interest in giving Stannis ammo for his guns. 

Renly's plan to replace Cersei with Margaery only makes sense if Cersei and her children are gone. Otherwise Margaery either doesn't become Queen or becomes mother to 3 or 4th prince in line after Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. The only way Renly could expect Cersei and her children to be gone is by knowing about incest. That's the most logical explanation.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

If Renly brings it up to Robert without a replacement Queen, Renly will gain nothing from the change. Even more disturbingly, if Robert dies somehow during turbulent time of anti-Lannister tra

nsition, Stannis would be the next King and that prospect inspires zero enthusiasm in Renly and his Tyrell benefactors.

Bringing it up would precipitate the immediate  need for a new Queen-which Margary could provide. 

The lanisters would easily be crushed when the entire  realm descends upon them.

12 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

makes him look better. In their conversation, Renly tries to spin Stannis as a jealous uncle who spins a story to make himself heir ahead of Robert's kids. If Stannis is a liar, he can claim no precedence over Renly as they would be both trying to seize the throne by force ahead of other heirs. But if Stannis speaks the truth about incest, then Stannis has a moral high ground and better claim and Renly has no interest in giving Stannis ammo for his guns. 

 

To who? He's trying to unjustifiably usurp his Nephew's throne, and he freely admits to Catelyn even if Stannis is telling the truth it really doesn't matter. And Stannis himself freely admits he doesn't have any evidence for his claim together.

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

51 minutes ago, zandru said:

Evidence - well, as I said, it was my assumption that Renly had a good idea of what his brother was into. That's the speculation part. Stannis accompanied Jon Arryn on his Tour of the Bastards in King's Landing, as Ned learned. That Stannis knew was obvious from his raven-missive to all the lords and towns of Westeros describing the incest; remember, Stannis never got Ned's letter. Cersei intercepted it. Moreover, after Jon's suspicious death, Stannis lost no time returning to Dragonstone and began building up a fleet.

How did Jon Arryn and Stannis figure it out? Remember that pedigree book they'd been reading, which Ned also studied. Baratheons apparently bred true for being "black of hair" in spite of the coloring of the other partner. Robert had innumerable bastards, and each one that could be identified shared the black hair. Meanwhile, Joff, Myrcella and Tommen had the Lannister golden curls and green eyes - every one of them.

I apologize for repeating what you undoubtedly already knew.

As you noted, the interesting part was the timing. I'm sure there was some suspicion by the time Myrcella was born (TWO golden-haired children!) and Tommen was the icing on the cake. But motive to actually investigate their parentage, aka potential Lannister treachery, had to have other motivations. What moves was Tywin making? Was Cersei exerting too much influence on carefree, drink-befuddled Robert? Or, more likely, what was Petyr Baelish doing to cast suspicion on House Lannister?

It's okay, I just needed something to jog my memory and see if it was anything more than the book of pedigree, like if it was something else, like personality. 

Sending out those ravens without evidence makes Stannis a fool, since it makes it look terribly convenient that he's saying this, as this would make him heir to Robert. 

 

[Myrish Lace]

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Bringing it up would precipitate the immediate  need for a new Queen-which Margary could provide. 

Margaery and thousands of other ladies. Once Cersei falls into the pit of incest scandal, it's gonna be a race for the throne. Every family of note scramble to place their Queen on the throne, to make sure it's their grandson that sits on the Iron Throne. It would be more advantageous to give Margaery a head start, preferably having caught Robert's eye and secured some good will with high and low in the capital, than have her enter the race with everyone else.

Royal matchmaking is a tricky business. The stakes are high, competition is everywhere and it's all a subject to a royal whim. Robert might follow his dick or get weary of bringing supremely powerful House into his bed after Lannister fiasco. Margaery needs every advantage she can get.

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To who?

To everyone present. It's one thing to speak in private that Stannis might having the right of it; it's another to publicly admit without a shadow of a doubt that Stannis is right.

 

[Morgana Lannister]

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe they just wanted Margaery to become Robert's mistress, have him fall in love with her so he would listen to what she whispered into his ear. In theory she could suggest new members for the Small Council/City Watch/KG/ect. and fill King's Landing with Tyrells and their supporters. Then when Robert croaked the Tyrells would be in a prime position to put Renly on the Throne and then marry him to Margaery. Renly could put the remaining Lannisters under lock and key like he wanted to do with Eddard. All believed possible because of how much Bob moaned about his lost love Lyanna. Renly and company thought Margaery could be Robert's new Lyanna.

A bit more elaborated than my initial thoughts but my thoughts exactly.  Margaery wants to be queen, yes, but Margaery courtesan to the king with brains and beauty, with her high born status, only a matter of time.  Unlike Cersei, Margarey would had indulged the king into his drinking, hunting whatever.  She would have complained little, not because she is weak but because she is smart and not as entitled as Cersei.  Granted, Cersei did have real reasons to hate Robert and this is what I love about this series; nothing is black or while lol

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like, there doesn't seem to be yet a concept for divorce in Westeroes; oaths are seen as sacrosanct and the basis for how noble families consolidate alliances.

I think the only way they(Renly and the Tyrells) could have planned  go about this should Margary have smitten Robert would be to go to the highsepton to get the oaths nullified what but would be the fallout from such a thing? 

No cultural impact at all. Kings have always been above things like cultural norms 

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

Margaery and thousands of other ladies. Once Cersei falls into the pit of incest scandal, it's gonna be a race for the throne. Every family of note scramble to place their Queen on the throne, to make sure it's their grandson that sits on the Iron Throne. It would be more advantageous to give Margaery a head start, preferably having caught Robert's eye and secured some good will with high and low in the capital, than have her enter the race with everyone else.

No not thousands. It'd be extremely limited to a few select families that of almost equal status to house baratheons. tVery few women in Westeroes are of the proper blood  to even be considered . The Tyrells being one of the richest families in the realm, the biggest military of all the provinces and who are being backed up by Renly who'd have gotten Robert's appreciation for uncovering the plot to put an abomination on his throne should place Margary(the Lyanna look a like) to be seen as the most likely  pick for who should replace Cersi.

 

20 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

everyone present. It's one thing to speak in private that Stannis might having the right of it; it's another to publicly admit without a shadow of a doubt that Stannis is right.

Again he's already publicly trying to usurp his nephews throne and freely admits he has no basis for why he should be king instead other than he's better suited for it anyway; there's honestly no need to put up a charade on how Stannis's claim(to which he has no evidence), not being true if Renly doesn't know.