Seams Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 What would you want to see in a literature class focused on ASOIAF? How much of the material would be realistic to cover? How would you handle spoilers, especially at this point when the books and show have diverged? Has anyone in this forum already enrolled in such a course, or taught a class using ASOIAF? Care to share what worked or didn't work in your classes? My family is polite when I try to engage them in conversation about the books, but they have also encouraged me to find a new outlet, such as offering a class at a community college. The sex and violence in the books pretty clearly rules out using them in high school classrooms. So college seems like the realistic age group, as long as you warned people up front about the "adult" content. I'm thinking about pursuing my family's suggestion but I have not taught at the college level and I'm not sure how I would approach this intriguing possibility. Points to consider: The ASOIAF books are engaging as stories and as well-written literature. Lessons should discuss both the plot and the writing. The books are long - both as individual volumes and as a series of (eventually) seven books. How much reading would community college students consider reasonable in the course of a semester? Many students would have seen the show and would be enthusiastic about the visuals and the drama without ever having opened the books. So there would be an awakening for a lot of them to the material that is lost when a book becomes a film. The course outline would have to be clear that reading is necessary; that content from the shows cannot be the basis for class discussions or written material. Or? Maybe the course should integrate book and show content? I imagine students would enjoy watching the show with classmates or for homework. Maybe early seasons of the show could be paired with reading assignments and some discussion could focus on comparing and contrasting the two different forms of storytelling. (Hmm. I can see a possible, "What is fan-fiction?" discussion . . . ) If you've seen any of my posts or comments, you know I am interested in the way the author uses words and symbols, so you can bet course content would emphasize that. Semester schedules vary, but I'm assuming about fifteen weeks of classes, possibly meeting twice a week. (A lower-level class would meet more often; an upper level class would probably meet for a longer period, fewer times per week.) So aiming for about thirty topics. Any college instructors in the group? Does this sound right? One of the challenges for me would be reigning in the ideas we freely exchange in this forum - comparing AGoT to ADwD and everything in between, discussing surprise plot twists with the confidence that everyone has already read the books at least once, bringing in points from Dunk & Egg and the World book, jumping from one character to another upon realizing that some aspect of Brienne's story is parallel to Arya or Ser Barristan or The Perfect Knight, etc. How do you get at the complexity of the interrelated stories without spoiling things for first-time readers? For instance, when the reader first encounters Brienne, would it be fair to say something like, "We're going to see more of this character . . . " I assume it would be o.k. to explain that Renly putting a cloak on her shoulders is a symbolic wedding and that the morningstar weapons she uses in the melee is probably symbolic of dawn. But would it be too much to tell students about the Perfect Knight legend at that point, and possible links to Florian and Jonquil, or should that wait until they have a chance to read those story elements themselves when they get to ACoK and AFfC? If a course starts with AGoT and students read a few chapters for each class, that might dictate the structure of the thirty topics for which I'm aiming. Is one novel enough to fill a semester? I expect there would be in-class writing prompts and discussion as well as a lot of writing assignments for homework. Maybe I can answer some of my own questions by dividing the book into thirty sessions and then figuring out a topic or topics to attach to each set of chapters. Possible points to incorporate: In-world mythology and beliefs Azor Ahai The Last Hero The Perfect Knight various religions real-world mythology and lore the Celtic Underworld Osiris, Isis, Horus The Winter King / Summer King (Holly and Ivy) Beauty and the Beast The fruit of knowledge Historic events and people GRRM drew on for plot elements Puns as structural devices and clues wolf / flow / fowl / flower egg / Ei / eye / ice sigils, words, seats, swords and family heirlooms as clues songs and singers as clues motifs death / rebirth blood monsters forges and smiths sewing fingers and hands foods seeds weirnet deserters and other outlaws steps and ruins and bridges flying blindness / seeing "skin changing" / hidden identities / armor fire / ice / stone / water themes Justice War High born vs. small folk Kinship Love and sex and marriage parallel characters Cersei / Catelyn Ned / Dolorous Ed / Rattleshirt Brienne / Perfect Knight / Arya Sansa / Margaery Daenerys / Robb Direwolves / Dragons Fools Crones Rorge / Gregor / King Cleon compare / contrast books and show Some topics would make sense only if the course reached later books, I think. For instance, Tyrion's adventures as Odysseus begin only after he escapes to Essos after Oberyn Martell loses the trial by combat. What can you add to the list? Is there a topic you would want to focus on for a term paper? Thanks for any input you can provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Seams said: rallel characters Cersei / Catelyn Ned / Dolorous Ed / Rattleshirt Brienne / Perfect Knight / Arya Sansa / Margaery Daenerys / Robb Direwolves / Dragons Fools Crones Rorge / Gregor / King Cleon What parallels Ned have with Edd and Rattleshirt? Also, i wouldn't compare Cleon with mad dogs. He wasn't good guy, but he isn't simillar to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back door hodor Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Considering the workload the average college student faces, I see it as nearly impossible to focus on more than one of these books for a semester, maybe two, the entire series seems way to large in scope unless you narrowed the focus of the course(many of the examples you suggested are fine, but a lot of them require an understanding of the series that a first time reader will most likely not have.). I personally think the way to go would be compare real world myths and Asoiaf, and how said myths can become ingrained in pop culture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Kandrax said: What parallels Ned have with Edd and Rattleshirt? Also, i wouldn't compare Cleon with mad dogs. He wasn't good guy, but he isn't simillar to them. The parallels would be between Ned and Edd and a separate comparison between Ned and Rattleshirt. The comparison between Cleon and Gregor is that both are dead warriors. Cleon is disinterred and strapped to a horse upon the recommendation of the Green Grace, who is linked to Gregor Clegane through wordplay. Rorge is also linked to Gregor through wordplay, but there also seems to be a convergence of clues that show Sandor and Gregor's threads likely to come back together. Rorge is wearing Sandor's helmet when he is slain. 1 hour ago, Back door hodor said: Considering the workload the average college student faces, I see it as nearly impossible to focus on more than one of these books for a semester, maybe two, the entire series seems way to large in scope unless you narrowed the focus of the course(many of the examples you suggested are fine, but a lot of them require an understanding of the series that a first time reader will most likely not have.). I personally think the way to go would be compare real world myths and Asoiaf, and how said myths can become ingrained in pop culture This is helpful. You may be right. More focused might be a better way to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I’ve long thought that the longevity of the books would lie not in the dragons, the Game, or in any of the other fantastical elements, but in GRRM’s character writing. That is if the books are finished. If they’re not, I figure they’ll fade into the ether. Some classes I’ve taken have focused on what the author intended but as the series isn't complete, perhaps using ASOIAF as more of an analysis or critical thinking opportunity might be something to consider. Themes are difficult because while some of the themes are apparent, I think the meat of this has yet to be published. The type of class might depend on whether or not you live in large city where a class could be filled with those who’ve already read the books. I think you’d have put all spoilers on the table except for the TWOW chapters. Another possibility is just reducing the syllabus to deep analysis of a number of key passages from the books which were also in the show. Community college students often have families and jobs, so having them read just one book of this size if they haven’t already is probably asking a lot. A class where you hand out a compilation of passages about Jaime’s character and past pre-ASOS and then have them read of his travels with Brienne might be quite interesting and it would reduce focus down to a more manageable number of chapters. It also was addressed in-show with would make it easier. Another option might be Tyrion’s capture by Catelyn, Sansa’s time in KL, Battle of Blackwater...If the students are less familiar with the books, then this format would probably require you to compare the show and books in detail and hand out a explanation of plot lines and characters that they'd be unfamiliar with an explanation so they could follow along. The show’s going completely off the rails and its reduction of quality would make any later content more difficult as you’d have to talk about the differences if students are less familiar with the books which would both waste time and be confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 I was also thinking about a "key passages" approach. Like a re-read that focuses on a topic - I would probably do a direwolf focus, since I've followed and helped write the two direwolf threads in the re-read section of this forum. Students would only read the chapters with relevant content, and we could presume that they got all their Dany and Davos material - and much of Tyrion - from the show. One of my worries about incorporating show material in a class is that I stopped watching after season 5, and I don't want spoilers from the subsequent episodes! So a class that covers AGoT and maybe ACoK would be safer for me, in addition to avoiding the "going completely off the rails" problem. I suspect these books would be a popular topic for a lit class in this moment before the books and show are finished. It may not be as popular after the show has finished airing. Personally, I think the books will have lasting appeal because of the quality of the writing. But community college kids may not choose their classes based on lasting literary value. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Lollygag said: Some classes I’ve taken have focused on what the author intended but as the series isn't complete, perhaps using ASOIAF as more of an analysis or critical thinking opportunity might be something to consider. When you say you've taken classes, do you mean classes that focused on ASOIAF or literature classes in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Seams said: The parallels would be between Ned and Edd and a separate comparison between Ned and Rattleshirt. The comparison between Cleon and Gregor is that both are dead warriors. Cleon is disinterred and strapped to a horse upon the recommendation of the Green Grace, who is linked to Gregor Clegane through wordplay. Rorge is also linked to Gregor through wordplay, but there also seems to be a convergence of clues that show Sandor and Gregor's threads likely to come back together. Rorge is wearing Sandor's helmet when he is slain. Interesting, i must said. Ps: i have also found some parallels between Ramsay and Rorge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Seams said: themes Justice War High born vs. small folk Kinship Love and sex and marriage Might I add themes of identity, gender, and authority? And sexual orientation? Also how about the effect this series has had on the culture surrounding fantasy writing in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 8 hours ago, Seams said: One of the challenges for me would be reigning in the ideas we freely exchange in this forum - comparing AGoT to ADwD and everything in between, discussing surprise plot twists with the confidence that everyone has already read the books at least once, bringing in points from Dunk & Egg and the World book, jumping from one character to another upon realizing that some aspect of Brienne's story is parallel to Arya or Ser Barristan or The Perfect Knight, etc. How do you get at the complexity of the interrelated stories without spoiling things for first-time readers? For instance, when the reader first encounters Brienne, would it be fair to say something like, "We're going to see more of this character . . . " I assume it would be o.k. to explain that Renly putting a cloak on her shoulders is a symbolic wedding and that the morningstar weapons she uses in the melee is probably symbolic of dawn. But would it be too much to tell students about the Perfect Knight legend at that point, and possible links to Florian and Jonquil, or should that wait until they have a chance to read those story elements themselves when they get to ACoK and AFfC? If a course starts with AGoT and students read a few chapters for each class, that might dicta If you're idea were to take place I think it'd only come about hundreds of years in the future-where there is a little more prestige on ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Might I add themes of identity, gender, and authority? And sexual orientation? Also how about the effect this series has had on the culture surrounding fantasy writing in general? This is an area where I could use some educating. I wasn't a regular reader of fantasy writing before ASOIAF - I guess I haven't read much subsequently, either. I'm more oriented toward historical fiction or history, usually. Can you give me a short version of the effect you have seen this series having on the culture surrounding fantasy writing? Do you mean with reference to the themes you listed, or in other ways as well? 5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: If you're idea were to take place I think it'd only come about hundreds of years in the future-where there is a little more prestige on ASOIAF. Colleges are looking for enrollment and retention. They want to offer courses that appeal to students. I think this series would be a hit topic for a class now. Probably most serious academic instructors haven't taken a serious look at it as literature - maybe partly because the fantasy genre is not the first place college instructors look for materials on which to base lessons. Or because the series is unfinished. Or because people think of the show, not the books. I wouldn't mind developing the first course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 16 minutes ago, Seams said: This is an area where I could use some educating. I wasn't a regular reader of fantasy writing before ASOIAF - I guess I haven't read much subsequently, either. I'm more oriented toward historical fiction or history, usually. Can you give me a short version of the effect you have seen this series having on the culture surrounding fantasy writing? Do you mean with reference to the themes you listed, or in other ways as well? Well this is my view of the shift-but just to be clear I'm little more than a layman on Fantasy writings in general so take what I say with a massive grain of salt- but I guess fantasy writers trying to appear more adult and edgy-more "realistic" grounded less in the forces of good vevil and a more nuanced world where whose good and whose evil is often in dispute. I found this article that might help: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/blog/sci-fi-fantasy/20th-anniversary-celebration-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 40 minutes ago, Seams said: Colleges are looking for enrollment and retention. They want to offer courses that appeal to students. I think this series would be a hit topic for a class now. Probably most serious academic instructors haven't taken a serious look at it as literature - maybe partly because the fantasy genre is not the first place college instructors look for materials on which to base lessons. Or because the series is unfinished. Or because people think of the show, not the books. I wouldn't mind developing the first course! They also want to be seen as serious and the older something is the more sophisticated it could seem. I imagine there will be seriously ASOIF scholars and this book series will be put up the works of Shakespeare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asshai Backward Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 I knew I'd read a snippet about GoT university courses... Perhaps you googled like I just did and already found some links, but here is one (MTV news? Sorry, but it is a good link): http://www.mtv.com/news/2362741/game-of-thrones-college-courses/ A lot of crossover into the show, but I guess that is the hook: show--->books--->more books. Or, as this professor put it: STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK AT CORTLAND The professor who pitched this class wanted to deconstruct the first three novels' towering themes, like power and discipline and the grand landscape of fantasy fiction. The ultimate goal? To get students into reading again. And another about a Harvard class: http://time.com/4798917/harvard-game-of-thrones-class/ Having taken a number of literature classes, I think using a series like ASOIAF as an entry point to literary study is an excellent idea. Even with an English degree, I misread the books on my first time through, blasting through for the plot; summer beach reading. It was only through the guidance of fine readers on this site and others that I started cluing in to what else is going on. I thought all the Tower of Joy and Tourney at Harrenhall stuff (not to mention the extensive dinner menus) were simple "world building" details meant for the avid audience of the genre, and glossed over them, much as I would gloss over the various songs in The Lord of the Rings back in sixth grade. While I certainly wondered about Jon's real parentage, I didn't even catch R+L=(probably) J, let alone any number of other mysteries, metaphors, and sundry subtexts. On the other hand, the depth of thought and writing on these forums and individual blogs far exceed the quality of discourse I found in any literature course I ever took--which in its own right is instructive--authentic engagement is a powerful buzz-phrase in educational theory! The best one I recall was 20th century American fiction, which was the only class I took that particular semester. We read a book a week and discussed for three hours on a Wednesday night. I was probably the exception in being able to read a book like Catch-22 (and respond in writing) in one week, probably because I was young, single, childless, fancy-free, highly engaged in the material, and a relatively fast reader--and again, it was the only course I was taking. But I do recall enjoying the discussions with my professor. How about a non-credit, community education type course? I'm always amazed here in my hometown of 200,000 when the quarterly flyer comes out with the list of classes available;. I can certainly see "Take your appreciation for Game of Thrones to the next level with this three hour per week 'book-club type' class examining the text behind the HBO series..." as an option in one of those listings. The compare and contrast idea might be an entry point. Anyway, I think it is a fantastic idea. My wife is still struggling to finish Dance, so I have no face to face options for discussing the books. These forums are fun, but I prefer the personal connection. **one last note--my second degree is in Education, and I took a Young Adult Lit class--a genre that is littered with fantasy. I think there is a very real opportunity to create a bridge between that genre into the larger sphere of literary study in general, and an ASOIAF class would be perfect. Do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 22 hours ago, Seams said: When you say you've taken classes, do you mean classes that focused on ASOIAF or literature classes in general? Lit in general. Found a syllabus online from UFL (University of Florida?) http://www.honors.ufl.edu/media/honorsufledu/syllabi/spring-18/IDH2930-Syllabus---A-Game-of-Thrones.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 I would give or take classes of asoiaf, but I'd wait the series to be finished, I would offer an entire course of philosphy based on GOT, if it was finished. Out of respect for alumni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Asshai Backward said: I knew I'd read a snippet about GoT university courses... Perhaps you googled like I just did and already found some links, . . . Having taken a number of literature classes, I think using a series like ASOIAF as an entry point to literary study is an excellent idea. Even with an English degree, I misread the books on my first time through, blasting through for the plot; summer beach reading. . . . How about a non-credit, community education type course? . . . Anyway, I think it is a fantastic idea. . . . Thanks for the links! I was so lost in my little world that I hadn't thought to look for published syllabi online! It helps enormously to see how others have focused the material, how much material they plan to cover, how they link it to other subject areas. I know that GRRM has said that he wants to books to be interesting when they are read a second or third time. He wants people to find new things each time they revisit. So your "blasting through for the plot" is probably the standard approach that we all took, with the deeper meanings and hidden details emerging in later re-reads. I would happily lead a non-credit, community ed-type course, but I am hoping to be paid something. I guess I need to take the proposal to someone at the community college and find out whether there is any interest. If so, whether they would want a semester-long class or a book group discussion. Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and for the links. 2 hours ago, Lollygag said: Lit in general. Found a syllabus online from UFL (University of Florida?) http://www.honors.ufl.edu/media/honorsufledu/syllabi/spring-18/IDH2930-Syllabus---A-Game-of-Thrones.pdf Also very helpful! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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