The Bard of Banefort

A Dearth of Visenyas

13 posts in this topic

Something I find very curious about the Targaryen family (and other Westerosi families in general) is that, with the exception of Rhaenyra's stillborn child, no one that we know of was named after the original Visenya. She certainly did have a dark side, as we see during Aenys and Maegor's reigns, but in the main series, she's lauded as one of the conquerors of Westeros, and is never really portrayed in a negative light. Several Targaryens were named after Rhaenys, so why not Visenya as well?

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5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something I find very curious about the Targaryen family (and other Westerosi families in general) is that, with the exception of Rhaenyra's stillborn child, no one that we know of was named after the original Visenya. She certainly did have a dark side, as we see during Aenys and Maegor's reigns, but in the main series, she's lauded as one of the conquerors of Westeros, and is never really portrayed in a negative light. Several Targaryens were named after Rhaenys, so why not Visenya as well?

Hmm. Interesting. Aerion named his son Maegor, and he's openly hated by alot. Though Daenerys brings his name up when talking her self up. So it maybe that Maegor is highly regarded by some in the family while not by others. 

Visenya getting no love any wheres is interesting. I also find it interesting that her dragon Vhagar was next ridden by a Black, Laena Velaryon. Then by a Green, Aemond One Eye. So if the dragon retains some of it's older riders, this is weird. Why did Vhagar bond with Laena then Aemond? 

Yet no one names their kid after her. Not even the other reputed sorceresses. You would think their children by a Targ would warrant such a name. 

Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen labored for three days on Dragonstone. One month premature, Visenya was a stillborn. The labour had begun when Princess Rhaenyra heard the news from King's Landing, that her father, King Viserys I Targaryen, had died, and that her half-brother, Prince Aegon, had claimed the throne and had been crowned King, despite Rhaenyra having been Viserys' heir.[1]

Now it is entirely possible that Rhaenyra named her kid Visenya for a reason. I have put forth a theory that the child of Ronnel Arryn and Lady Stark (Arranged by Visenya) was a daughter who couldn't inherit the throne, so the throne went to her uncle. Who's son wed the daughter of Lady Stark and Ronnel to produce Rodrik Arryn. Rodrik who marries Daella Targaryen, daughter of Alysanne and Jaehaerys and have a child named Aemma Arryn. Aemma Arryn and Viserys I Targaryen have one daughter, Rhaenyra Targaryen/Stark. 

Now when did she name her child Visenya? Cause if she planned ahead of time to name the kid Visenya. The Maester at dragonstone may have said oh hell na and poisoned Rhaenyra with that poison given to Jeyne Westerling. cant remember it sorry.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150239-part-1-the-blacks-and-the-greens/

I should actually say thank you for bringing this to my attention. I totally wasn't paying attention to Rhaenyra naming her child Visenya and the only person to do so. As this ties to my theory as Visenya arranged the marriage of Ronnel to Lady Stark. :) 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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The name was probably seen as both sinister (Visenya was reputed to be a sorceress, very ruthless, and the mother of an appallingly cruel king) and ill-omened (after Rhaenyra's child died).

Edited by SeanF

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There’s a dearth of Aenys as well; there’s only been one Aenys Targaryen: Aegon the Conqueror’s firstborn son, Aenys I. But considering he was a rather weak king...

I must add that there was an Aenys Blackfyre, but he doesn’t count as a member of House Blackfyre instead of Targaryen. 

Best assumption is that names go in and out of fashion; there wasn’t a Jaehaerys for almost a hundred years, between Jaehaerys son of Aegon II and King Jaehaerys II, son of Aegon V. There hasn’t been an Aemon Targaryen since Maester Aemon.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen labored for three days on Dragonstone. One month premature, Visenya was a stillborn. The labour had begun when Princess Rhaenyra heard the news from King's Landing, that her father, King Viserys I Targaryen, had died, and that her half-brother, Prince Aegon, had claimed the throne and had been crowned King, despite Rhaenyra having been Viserys' heir.[1]

This is helpful context. Visenya was the power behind the throne, in my opinion. Aegon got the glory and the title of Conqueror, but he couldn't have done it without his sisters - particularly the strong and shrewd Visenya.

When Rhaenyra's brother betrayed her and took the throne that her father had designated for her, "Visenya" died. This may be the author's way of showing us that the Targaryens failed to recognize and value women as equals with the ability to rule in their own right. The first Visenya could have done it; Rhaenyra could have done it. The death of the baby Visenya marks the foreclosure of equality for women in positions of power.

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

This is helpful context. Visenya was the power behind the throne, in my opinion. Aegon got the glory and the title of Conqueror, but he couldn't have done it without his sisters - particularly the strong and shrewd Visenya.

When Rhaenyra's brother betrayed her and took the throne that her father had designated for her, "Visenya" died. This may be the author's way of showing us that the Targaryens failed to recognize and value women as equals with the ability to rule in their own right. The first Visenya could have done it; Rhaenyra could have done it. The death of the baby Visenya marks the foreclosure of equality for women in positions of power.

I can't decide if she was passed over cause they knew her true lineage, or if they simply didn't want a girl to take the throne. The only girl not of tainted blood to be made heir was Aenys I granddaughter Rhaella by Maegor. Though Rhaella's mother later supported Jaehaerys' claim for the throne. So its unclear why she was passed over. Unless it was just cause Jaehaerys was already of age and Maegor was killing people?

Rhaenys and Rhaenyra though ive done a thread on them having bad blood. Though im still ironing everything out in that. Looking at Cregan Stark right now to figure out his marriage pact and what happened. Though supposedly Jaecaerys Velaryon loved one of his daughters. Cregan wanted a Targ bride i believe.

By 44 AC - despite being healthy enough to ride her dragon to battle the year before - Visenya had grown thin and haggard, as the flesh had "melted" from her bones.

May want to look into this ^ I know im gonna be. This almost sounds like the Wasting sickness the Ser Willem Darry died of. I wonder who the Maester on Dragonstone was or who was on Dragonstone.

Visenya also created the K.G. to protect the King, so props to her for that. 

Though i wonder about Visenya forcing Ronnel and Lady Stark to wed. Its said that Torrhen was not pleased about this either. Then all the other stuff i mentioned before about Rhaenyra being of that line, and chosen by Viserys I despite the council of 101, Viserys I whos the only person to tell the story of Jaehaerys and Alysanne fighting at the wall with Dragons against wildlings, giants, and mammoths, closing the nightfort, and ending first night. What did Viserys know, that caused him to stick with Rhaenyra despite having a son? Rhaenyra who names sixth and last child, Visenya, by Daemon.

That would mean by Daemon, they would have had Visenya, Aegon III,and Viserys II. The Three Heads of the Dragon? 

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I always assumed the name Viserys was a tribute to Visenya... 

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There was one Targaryen named after Visenya - Prince Viserys, the second son of King Aenys.

Viserys is the male version of the name Visenya (and/or vice versa, presumably).

Aenys' eldest child, Rhaena, was named after her grandmother Rhaenys, and Aenys' eldest son after his grandfather, the Conqueror.

But in the wake of Visenya's (possible) murder of King Aenys and Maegor's treatment of Aenys' family, resulting in the deaths of two of Jaehaerys I's brothers, the name Visenya clearly was no longer popular.

That is why Jaehaerys I named one of his daughters Viserra (after his late elder brother) instead of Visenya. And later, in turn, his eldest grandson was named Viserys, too, presumably also after the king's late brother.

Once Viserys was established as a king's name it got a life of its own, just as many of the other king's names did (Aegon, Daeron, etc.).

Rhaenyra's decision to name her stillborn daughter Visenya would have honored both her father and the historical Visenya - but the important fact to consider there is that she chose the name for a stillborn child, using it as a symbol to send the message to the traitors that she would fight for her throne just Visenya had fought back in the day.

If the child had lived she might have chosen a different name entirely.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was one Targaryen named after Visenya - Prince Viserys, the second son of King Aenys.

Viserys is the male version of the name Visenya (and/or vice versa, presumably).

Aenys' eldest child, Rhaena, was named after her grandmother Rhaenys, and Aenys' eldest son after his grandfather, the Conqueror.

But in the wake of Visenya's (possible) murder of King Aenys and Maegor's treatment of Aenys' family, resulting in the deaths of two of Jaehaerys I's brothers, the name Visenya clearly was no longer popular.

That is why Jaehaerys I named one of his daughters Viserra (after his late elder brother) instead of Visenya. And later, in turn, his eldest grandson was named Viserys, too, presumably also after the king's late brother.

Once Viserys was established as a king's name it got a life of its own, just as many of the other king's names did (Aegon, Daeron, etc.).

Rhaenyra's decision to name her stillborn daughter Visenya would have honored both her father and the historical Visenya - but the important fact to consider there is that she chose the name for a stillborn child, using it as a symbol to send the message to the traitors that she would fight for her throne just Visenya had fought back in the day.

If the child had lived she might have chosen a different name entirely.

Except that Rhaenyra wasn’t a warrior.

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2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Except that Rhaenyra wasn’t a warrior.

That isn't relevant. She was clearly making it clear with the whole Visenya naming thing that she was willing to fight to the death for her rights the way a true warrior would. The whole point of this public display of her grief and the name she chose is to show the Realm that she is not going to give in.

That is also the reason why she blames the death of her daughter on the traitors.

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Viserys/Viserra seem as products of the name Visenya. They appear frequently after Visenya but not before her. Despite her personality, she was a popular warrior-queen, a dragonrider and a good ruler.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't relevant. She was clearly making it clear with the whole Visenya naming thing that she was willing to fight to the death for her rights the way a true warrior would. The whole point of this public display of her grief and the name she chose is to show the Realm that she is not going to give in.

That is also the reason why she blames the death of her daughter on the traitors.

See i pin that on her Maesters

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