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Who will tell Daenerys the Truth, and more importantly, what effect will it have?


Pride of Driftmark

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21 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

3 big problems with this... First, who would she name? Second, if the heir isn’t her blood, it’s not the Targaryen Dynasty. Third, this seems like a recipe for a succession crisis.

I think you’re missing the point here... Robert’s rational for taking the throne was revenge, justice, and end the horrible rule of a mad king. Doesn’t this sound exactly like what you’re describing? There is no evidence that Dany is capable of a more peaceful or successful rule. She lined the roads for miles with crucified “subjects”. The expression, “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions”, springs to mind. Even her calling card, “breaker of chains”, doesn’t apply to Westeros where slavery is already banned.

Enter Jorah... the fugitive...

Selling men into slavery isn’t exactly a misdemeanor where it’s all cool after a little bit. But ya, we can move on, the guy isn’t anyone’s idea of a hero.

Barristan wasn’t loyal to the end... I don’t hate Barry, he’s a badass old dude, but he doesn’t hold a candle to the rest of Aery’s Kingsguard in that regard, Kingslayer excluded for obvious reasons...

Barry might be good but he didn’t stay true...

There is no such thing as a “rightful” dynasty... that’s some divine right bullshit. The Targaryens took power with fire and blood, it’s some unbelievably hypocritical shit to pretend otherwise.

And anyway, all evidence points toward Tywin (you know that other Usurper’s dog) being the one who ran the realm so well during Aerys’s reign.

There isn’t any reason to believe the Targaryens make better (or worse) monarchs than anyone else. They just have dragons (might makes right).

Got to love divine right of kings- nuclear weapons (giant lizards) make kings, not righteousness or wisdom.

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28 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There isn’t any reason to believe the Targaryens make better (or worse) monarchs than anyone else. They just have dragons (might makes right).

Well, a detailed reading of Targaryen history would bear this out. But Daenerys doesn't seem to realize this; she's still idealistic and well-intended. Those two characteristics, plus her ability to learn and inclination to listen to advisors before making her decision, give me hope. Daenerys is young and energetic and wants to do what's right. Total contrast with Robert, who just wanted to reap the bennies, and even complained about his Iron Throne not being comfy enough.

On the rest, I don't go with your interpretation, but I know these things are religious beliefs and there's little point in belabored argument. Clearly, we need the rest of the series!

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16 minutes ago, zandru said:

On the rest, I don't go with your interpretation, but I know these things are religious beliefs and there's little point in belabored argument. Clearly, we need the rest of the series!

It would be no fun if we all agreed about everything! 

But it does seem a little unfair to compare old worn out Robert to Dany, the new hotness... I’m sure Robert set out down his road with the best of intentions as well. That’s kinda my point.

But you actually believe in the divine right of kings? 

Otherwise I’m not sure why religion comes into it... “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” is an expression meaning that often people setting out intending to do good cause great harm.

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34 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But you actually believe in the divine right of kings? 

No - but Westeros sure seems to! Just trying to play by what seem to be the rules. I also challenge Melisandre's notion of "kingsblood" - I think it's all a part of her scam. But we will see!

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

“the road to hell is paved with good intentions” is an expression meaning that often people setting out intending to do good cause great harm.

That's certainly true, and ASOIAF has had many examples of this, one of them being Jon Snow getting stabbed by his own men. Daenerys has, I have to admit, done quite a few herself. On the other hand, she does seem to be learning... Will it be fast enough, and the right lessons? Only George RR knows. At least, I hope he does.

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2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There isn’t any reason to believe the Targaryens make better (or worse) monarchs than anyone else. They just have dragons (might makes right).

I couldn't agree more here. I think something similar popped up elsewhere not too long ago... but anyways, it's definitely not about the surname,  but rather the person. Plentry of good and bad on all "sides". 

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On 2/13/2018 at 6:29 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

She barely paid any heed to Barristan's stories even though she asked him to tell her.

It was almost as if she wants to hear "stories" as some little child who's bored, not to learn something useful. 

I would totally disagree but it is very hard to hear just how awful, say, your father may have been and react there and then and show it to other people.  She is in denial; she would rather there were just stories...

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1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I would totally disagree but it is very hard to hear just how awful, say, your father may have been and react there and then and show it to other people.  She is in denial; she would rather there were just stories...

How did Arya react when told her father loved Ashara Dayne?  Very unladylike and rude.  None of what Arya heard sunk in that oddly long head of hers.  It's natural for people to have a sore spot when family is concerned.  How did Robb react when told his father betrayed Prince Joffrey?  He called his levies and declared a rebellion.  How did Ned react when first meeting Petyr in King's Landing?  With a little bit of hostility and none too polite.  Nobody wants to hear anything negative about their family.  Daenerys is human and reacting like a human.  To her credit, Dany is very, very smart and perceptive for her age.  Whatever annoyance she may have for the rebels is not a grudge that will lead to anything beyond that. 

Westeros will be in ruins very soon and the people will look for someone to turn to.  Whatever faults the three hundred years of Targaryen rule may have had, it was never as bad as the current state of Westeros.  Can you imagine if King Tommen had to address the nation and give a "State of the Kingdom Address!" 

Dearly beloved noblemen and commoners, we are gathered here today so that I may share with you the current state of the nation.  A rogue element called the Brotherhood has been menacing the Riverlands and threatening the farm folk.  A pack of rabid wolves menace and kill livestock beyond what they need for sustenance.  It has also come to my attention that our friends to the South may in principle be our enemies as they have been planning the restoration of the Targaryens.  My disgraced uncle, the kinslayer, is still at large.  My fa--, ahem, my uncle is away on business and refuse my mother's summons.  The rebel lord Stannis is still at the moment encamped around Winterfell and threaten the rule of my appointed Warden of the North.  The lord commander of the watch recently allowed the passage of wildlings into the north and made threat to attack Lord Bolton.  An unknown enemy is attacking the western seas. My mother's new bodyguard doesn't talk but he gives me the creeps.  My sweet sister Myrcella lost an ear and now her Ray-Bans hang crooked.   And to top it all off, my mom walked naked in public!!!!!  Gods be good, I'm gonna need therapy.  So there you have it, the state of the nation's address. 

I don't predict much resistance to the restoration of House Targaryen.  While people fear dragons, they are also awed by their majesty and many would travel considerable distance just to behold the sight of Dany's three dragons. 

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24 minutes ago, Belwas the Bodyguard said:

How did Arya react when told her father loved Ashara Dayne?  Very unladylike and rude.  None of what Arya heard sunk in that oddly long head of hers.  It's natural for people to have a sore spot when family is concerned.  How did Robb react when told his father betrayed Prince Joffrey?  He called his levies and declared a rebellion.  How did Ned react when first meeting Petyr in King's Landing?  With a little bit of hostility and none too polite.  Nobody wants to hear anything negative about their family.  Daenerys is human and reacting like a human.  To her credit, Dany is very, very smart and perceptive for her age.  Whatever annoyance she may have for the rebels is not a grudge that will lead to anything beyond that. 

Westeros will be in ruins very soon and the people will look for someone to turn to.  Whatever faults the three hundred years of Targaryen rule may have had, it was never as bad as the current state of Westeros.  Can you imagine if King Tommen had to address the nation and give a "State of the Kingdom Address!" 

Dearly beloved noblemen and commoners, we are gathered here today so that I may share with you the current state of the nation.  A rogue element called the Brotherhood has been menacing the Riverlands and threatening the farm folk.  A pack of rabid wolves menace and kill livestock beyond what they need for sustenance.  It has also come to my attention that our friends to the South may in principle be our enemies as they have been planning the restoration of the Targaryens.  My disgraced uncle, the kinslayer, is still at large.  My fa--, ahem, my uncle is away on business and refuse my mother's summons.  The rebel lord Stannis is still at the moment encamped around Winterfell and threaten the rule of my appointed Warden of the North.  The lord commander of the watch recently allowed the passage of wildlings into the north and made threat to attack Lord Bolton.  An unknown enemy is attacking the western seas. My mother's new bodyguard doesn't talk but he gives me the creeps.  My sweet sister Myrcella lost an ear and now her Ray-Bans hang crooked.   And to top it all off, my mom walked naked in public!!!!!  Gods be good, I'm gonna need therapy.  So there you have it, the state of the nation's address. 

I don't predict much resistance to the restoration of House Targaryen.  While people fear dragons, they are also awed by their majesty and many would travel considerable distance just to behold the sight of Dany's three dragons. 

I really like your point (with examples) that most people are reluctant to hear something they don't like about family. Sadly, people react that way about their favorite characters' flaws and yet expect a fictional Dany to accept everything her family's enemies have to say as the "truth". Hell, if just accepting gossip and rumor (propaganda) as the "truth" was enough, nobody would have to tell her anything. She already knows what all the gossip (propaganda) against her family is.

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33 minutes ago, Belwas the Bodyguard said:

Dearly beloved noblemen and commoners, we are gathered here today so that I may share with you the current state of the nation.  A rogue element called the Brotherhood has been menacing the Riverlands and threatening the farm folk.  A pack of rabid wolves menace and kill livestock beyond what they need for sustenance.  It has also come to my attention that our friends to the South may in principle be our enemies as they have been planning the restoration of the Targaryens.  My disgraced uncle, the kinslayer, is still at large.  My fa--, ahem, my uncle is away on business and refuse my mother's summons.  The rebel lord Stannis is still at the moment encamped around Winterfell and threaten the rule of my appointed Warden of the North.  The lord commander of the watch recently allowed the passage of wildlings into the north and made threat to attack Lord Bolton.  An unknown enemy is attacking the western seas. My mother's new bodyguard doesn't talk but he gives me the creeps.  My sweet sister Myrcella lost an ear and now her Ray-Bans hang crooked.   And to top it all off, my mom walked naked in public!!!!!  Gods be good, I'm gonna need therapy.  So there you have it, the state of the nation's address oh and we're still broke!

There polished it up for ya.

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42 minutes ago, Belwas the Bodyguard said:

How did Arya react when told her father loved Ashara Dayne?  Very unladylike and rude.  None of what Arya heard sunk in that oddly long head of hers.  It's natural for people to have a sore spot when family is concerned.  How did Robb react when told his father betrayed Prince Joffrey?  He called his levies and declared a rebellion.  How did Ned react when first meeting Petyr in King's Landing?  With a little bit of hostility and none too polite.  Nobody wants to hear anything negative about their family.  Daenerys is human and reacting like a human.  To her credit, Dany is very, very smart and perceptive for her age.  Whatever annoyance she may have for the rebels is not a grudge that will lead to anything beyond that. 

Westeros will be in ruins very soon and the people will look for someone to turn to.  Whatever faults the three hundred years of Targaryen rule may have had, it was never as bad as the current state of Westeros.  Can you imagine if King Tommen had to address the nation and give a "State of the Kingdom Address!" 

Dearly beloved noblemen and commoners, we are gathered here today so that I may share with you the current state of the nation.  A rogue element called the Brotherhood has been menacing the Riverlands and threatening the farm folk.  A pack of rabid wolves menace and kill livestock beyond what they need for sustenance.  It has also come to my attention that our friends to the South may in principle be our enemies as they have been planning the restoration of the Targaryens.  My disgraced uncle, the kinslayer, is still at large.  My fa--, ahem, my uncle is away on business and refuse my mother's summons.  The rebel lord Stannis is still at the moment encamped around Winterfell and threaten the rule of my appointed Warden of the North.  The lord commander of the watch recently allowed the passage of wildlings into the north and made threat to attack Lord Bolton.  An unknown enemy is attacking the western seas. My mother's new bodyguard doesn't talk but he gives me the creeps.  My sweet sister Myrcella lost an ear and now her Ray-Bans hang crooked.   And to top it all off, my mom walked naked in public!!!!!  Gods be good, I'm gonna need therapy.  So there you have it, the state of the nation's address. 

I don't predict much resistance to the restoration of House Targaryen.  While people fear dragons, they are also awed by their majesty and many would travel considerable distance just to behold the sight of Dany's three dragons. 

Actually in agreement here :)

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Dany showed compassion and chose to not harm her cupbearers/hostages despite believing their families are working with the Harpy.  Why anybody expects her to harm the children of her father's enemies outside of the battlefields is beyond me.  

Now, on the battlefields, children or not, they become soldiers and they put themselves in harm's way.  Dany has no moral obligations to hold back.

 

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23 hours ago, Hoffa said:

 

It's funny how you conclude, with no evidence what so ever, that because I said "mad queen dany" I must be a Jon loyalist. 

That's not he case. I don't really hate anyone in the series. Everyone has their own arc and I love how the books unveil their destinies.

Dany is one of my favorite characters and I love her chapters. She can be the most caring and loving person ever and i kinda support her for the throne. But she has this other side where she is cruel and unforgiving. When she's calm and collected she is a great Queen (imo) but the slightest bump and she'll throw a fit and become a very dangerous person. Her dual personality should be a concern. I hope i'm wrong.

I agree about Bowen Marsh. That dude is awesome :D

Oh, i forgot,  i do hate someone. I hate that coward and spineless Jorah Mormont. Grrrrr

:)

Yeah, well, this forum sometimes encourages some of us, like this one, to stereotype.  Reading the forums while about life's business means you make quick assumptions.  But oh please don't take that for an apology. -_-

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Dany is still only 16? She’s doing pretty well for her age and is inclined to show mercy to children. More than Robert. And puts a lot more effort into ruling, while Robert in his prime did not. Naturally she makes mistakes, as we all would with very difficult problems. So far, she doesn’t have good advice. Her duality may come because of how she has been treated and because her role models were Viserys and Drogo.

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On 2/12/2018 at 8:35 PM, Pride of Driftmark said:

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

The posts on this thread is really telling on where each comment writer's loyalties are.  For proof that the fans are divided, one look no further than this thread.

So, Pride of Driftmark, do you think Stannis would have shown any mercy to Viserys and Daenerys if he had managed to catch up with them on Dragonstone?  Prince (King) Viserys and Princess Daenerys would have gotten no better treatment than Ellia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.  Seriously, the rebels would not have shown mercy to Viserys and Daenerys.  Even a lord less of an asshole than Stannis would have killed the children.  That's one way to protect Robert's new reign and curry favor with him at the same time. 

So this takes us back to the present.  Given that the "Usurper and his dogs" would not have shown any mercy to Viserys and Daenerys if they had been caught at Dragonstone, why do you feel Daenerys is obligated to show the families of the "Usurper and his dogs" any mercy?  I for one do not feel Daenerys owes them any breaks.  They certainly would not have shown her brother and her any breaks if the situation had been reversed.  And it was reversed years ago.  Daenerys has the right to treat those people in any way she finds acceptable.  I don't think she will harm them without good cause for the simple reason that she's a better person than the Usurper's supporters.  But we need to understand that she owes them nothing and she can treat them the way they would have treated her at Dragonstone those many years ago.

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On 2/16/2018 at 8:05 PM, Belwas the Bodyguard said:

How did Arya react when told her father loved Ashara Dayne?  Very unladylike and rude.  None of what Arya heard sunk in that oddly long head of hers.  It's natural for people to have a sore spot when family is concerned.  How did Robb react when told his father betrayed Prince Joffrey?  He called his levies and declared a rebellion.  How did Ned react when first meeting Petyr in King's Landing?  With a little bit of hostility and none too polite.  Nobody wants to hear anything negative about their family.  Daenerys is human and reacting like a human.  To her credit, Dany is very, very smart and perceptive for her age.  Whatever annoyance she may have for the rebels is not a grudge that will lead to anything beyond that. 

Westeros will be in ruins very soon and the people will look for someone to turn to.  Whatever faults the three hundred years of Targaryen rule may have had, it was never as bad as the current state of Westeros.  Can you imagine if King Tommen had to address the nation and give a "State of the Kingdom Address!" 

Dearly beloved noblemen and commoners, we are gathered here today so that I may share with you the current state of the nation.  A rogue element called the Brotherhood has been menacing the Riverlands and threatening the farm folk.  A pack of rabid wolves menace and kill livestock beyond what they need for sustenance.  It has also come to my attention that our friends to the South may in principle be our enemies as they have been planning the restoration of the Targaryens.  My disgraced uncle, the kinslayer, is still at large.  My fa--, ahem, my uncle is away on business and refuse my mother's summons.  The rebel lord Stannis is still at the moment encamped around Winterfell and threaten the rule of my appointed Warden of the North.  The lord commander of the watch recently allowed the passage of wildlings into the north and made threat to attack Lord Bolton.  An unknown enemy is attacking the western seas. My mother's new bodyguard doesn't talk but he gives me the creeps.  My sweet sister Myrcella lost an ear and now her Ray-Bans hang crooked.   And to top it all off, my mom walked naked in public!!!!!  Gods be good, I'm gonna need therapy.  So there you have it, the state of the nation's address. 

I don't predict much resistance to the restoration of House Targaryen.  While people fear dragons, they are also awed by their majesty and many would travel considerable distance just to behold the sight of Dany's three dragons. 

:D

On 2/16/2018 at 8:52 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Dany showed compassion and chose to not harm her cupbearers/hostages despite believing their families are working with the Harpy.  Why anybody expects her to harm the children of her father's enemies outside of the battlefields is beyond me.  

Now, on the battlefields, children or not, they become soldiers and they put themselves in harm's way.  Dany has no moral obligations to hold back.

 

Right.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Why? He'd say whatever he need to save his neck-not bear out ghosts  decades dead.

He does tend to be a bit of a smart mouth when it suits him or when he is angry enough.  I can see him being honest with Dany should the situation arise.  

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