Pride of Driftmark

Who will tell Daenerys the Truth, and more importantly, what effect will it have?

121 posts in this topic

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

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2 minutes ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

What Aerys did has no bearing on Daenerys.  Do you hold the Starks responsible for the actions of their ancestors who made human sacrifices to the trees?  Do you hold it against the Starks for the Hungry Wolf's depravity?  I don't think we should in all three examples. 

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19 minutes ago, Anck Su Namun said:

What Aerys did has no bearing on Daenerys.  Do you hold the Starks responsible for the actions of their ancestors who made human sacrifices to the trees?  Do you hold it against the Starks for the Hungry Wolf's depravity?  I don't think we should in all three examples. 

Good point, and absolutely Daenerys shouldn't be held responsible. I guess I went a little overboard with the wiping out, but the problem is that the survivors of the Rebellion will hold her responsible. They won't just welcome her back. How will she respond and prove she can be trusted? (PS, thanks for reminding me about Theon Stark, a great example of "the good guys" bad history)

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By the time she gets to Westeros, there's a good chance there aren't any Baratheon's left (Stannis and Shireen being the only ones), and maybe no Arryns either, for I have a feeling with Baelish in charge of the Vale, little Robin isn't long for this world. The Tully's are no longer a factor if Edmure and his child are "resting comfortably" in Casterly Rock.

Daenerys wants to "break the wheel", but really the only power structure she needs to break is the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. She will have plenty of help in that regard, as Dorne is ready to support her, Aegon, or both, as long as they get to play a hand in destroying the Lannisters. And we have Varys actively working to sow discord between the Reach and the Westerlands. I think the Freys could be fairly easily cowed if/when they realized they didn't have the support of any houses other than their own direct vassals (Haighs, Erenfords, Charltons). So that leaves the North/Iron Islands, and the Manderlys will assist in overthrowing uprising the Boltons for sure. The Iron Islands aren't a factor unless the dragon binding horn is a real thing. They lack the unity or strength to challenge an even partially organized mainland force and have already lost all their holdings in the North.

Daenerys' arrival in Westeros, should it happen, comes with little baggage, in my opinion. I don't think she cares for the history of her house or any others. She will reward those loyal to her, attempt protect the innocent, and seek to destroy any that oppose her right to rule, or those who seek to enhance or preserve their own power at the expense of those they deem "less than" themselves (aka stand up for the smallfolk by curbing the depredations of the nobility). 

Daenerys' biggest problem will be the same as Stannis had. The willingness to make alliances, and the concessions those alliances demand, in order to garner the support she needs to accomplish her goals. If Stannis had been willing to ally w/ Renly and Robb, they would have won. Easily. You can't fight everyone at once, by yourself. Would she be willing to grant the North it's independence (assuming this is what Wyman Manderly would demand should he be able to restore Rickon to Winterfell and defeat the Bolton's) in exchange for their support? Would she be willing to marry Trystane Martell to ally with Dorne? Would she pardon those lords of the Reach, Riverlands, Westerlands and North who supported the treachery of the Lannister/Frey/Bolton triumvirate? Or the Tyrell bannermen? How would she deal with Baelish? Or her own nephew, Aegon? 

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Also- I think a major point is this....when you get right down to it, people that have power and privilege just want to preserve their power and privilege. They will shift alliances as needed and do whatever they have to do. 

During Robert's Rebellion, the Reach and Dorne were on the same side, and they had (have) been fighting against each other for millennia. The houses of Westeros will stand either for or against Daenerys based on their own self-preservation, not out of some sense of ancient loyalty to the Targaryen's or because they were on the rebel side of the Rebellion.

Case in point, the Blackfyre's basically used the Golden Company as their own personal army, but now the Golden Company is in league with a would-be Targaryen king, the scion of the very dynasty they fought multiple wars to topple. The descendants of the Westerosi exile are little different from the Essosi in the Company. They don't want to go to Westeros because they want to reclaim birthrights. They want to go and be on the winning side and claim the spoils, have their own shot at power and privilege. So as the winds shift, people try to leverage the advantages they have, usually regardless of historical enmity. 

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I think that Dany still might held responsible children of people who rebelled against her father. She isn't most forgiving character. She ordered torture of wineseller and his daughters when she was angry.

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14 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

What Aerys did has no bearing on Daenerys.  Do you hold the Starks responsible for the actions of their ancestors who made human sacrifices to the trees?  Do you hold it against the Starks for the Hungry Wolf's depravity?  I don't think we should in all three examples. 

No but Dany has Aerys' temper and she is cruel.

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14 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

Eddard Stark did rebel. He might have had very nuanced reasons for doing so, but he backed Robert's claim to the throne, and he was at least partly (if not wholly) rebelling due to Aerys's (and Rhaegar's) treatment of his house. But in any event Eddard Stark is dead. 

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1 hour ago, Hammers1895 said:

By the time she gets to Westeros, there's a good chance there aren't any Baratheon's left (Stannis and Shireen being the only ones), and maybe no Arryns either, for I have a feeling with Baelish in charge of the Vale, little Robin isn't long for this world. The Tully's are no longer a factor if Edmure and his child are "resting comfortably" in Casterly Rock.

Daenerys wants to "break the wheel", but really the only power structure she needs to break is the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. She will have plenty of help in that regard, as Dorne is ready to support her, Aegon, or both, as long as they get to play a hand in destroying the Lannisters. And we have Varys actively working to sow discord between the Reach and the Westerlands. I think the Freys could be fairly easily cowed if/when they realized they didn't have the support of any houses other than their own direct vassals (Haighs, Erenfords, Charltons). So that leaves the North/Iron Islands, and the Manderlys will assist in overthrowing uprising the Boltons for sure. The Iron Islands aren't a factor unless the dragon binding horn is a real thing. They lack the unity or strength to challenge an even partially organized mainland force and have already lost all their holdings in the North.

Daenerys' arrival in Westeros, should it happen, comes with little baggage, in my opinion. I don't think she cares for the history of her house or any others. She will reward those loyal to her, attempt protect the innocent, and seek to destroy any that oppose her right to rule, or those who seek to enhance or preserve their own power at the expense of those they deem "less than" themselves (aka stand up for the smallfolk by curbing the depredations of the nobility). 

Daenerys' biggest problem will be the same as Stannis had. The willingness to make alliances, and the concessions those alliances demand, in order to garner the support she needs to accomplish her goals. If Stannis had been willing to ally w/ Renly and Robb, they would have won. Easily. You can't fight everyone at once, by yourself. Would she be willing to grant the North it's independence (assuming this is what Wyman Manderly would demand should he be able to restore Rickon to Winterfell and defeat the Bolton's) in exchange for their support? Would she be willing to marry Trystane Martell to ally with Dorne? Would she pardon those lords of the Reach, Riverlands, Westerlands and North who supported the treachery of the Lannister/Frey/Bolton triumvirate? Or the Tyrell bannermen? How would she deal with Baelish? Or her own nephew, Aegon? 

That's a construct of the show. 

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31 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

I think that Dany still might held responsible children of people who rebelled against her father. She isn't most forgiving character. She ordered torture of wineseller and his daughters when she was angry.

For sure it will influence which houses she seeks support from, and which she she expects will oppose her. 

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1 hour ago, Hammers1895 said:

Daenerys wants to "break the wheel", but really the only power structure she needs to break is the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

Dany is the wheel... she is the paragon of privilege. She relys on her name and bloodline for legitimacy and miraculously birthed dragons to give her a flaming sword to hold over the world. 

Her conquering Westeros isn’t breaking the wheel, a tv show line, it’s a repeat of history, and if anything a reassertion of the old regime.  

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I don't think Dany will have much of a problem.  Because even the leading families of Robert's rebellion, if they have the brains that God gave an ox, will realize they were better off under Targaryen rule compared to what they have now.  They are simply paying back and suffering for rebelling 15 or so years ago.  Those damned Baratheon, Starks, Arryns, and Tully's thought they could do better than the Targaryens.  They're so wrong and they're receiving their rewards.  They have to be thinking with their feeble minds what a mistake it was to rebel over something so trivial when compared to the damage they caused.

I would not care how the Baratheon, Starks, Arryns, and Tully's feel if I were Dany.  Their opinions do not matter.  The Baratheons, Starks, and Edmure are homeless irrelevants who are now experiencing what Princess Daenerys and King Viserys III had to experience.  I don't want life to get better for the Baratheons, the Starks, the Arryns, and the Tully's.  

Rickard Stark's family lost it all and there is symmetry and fairness because they did the same to the Targaryens.  The Baratheons need to suffer and die off.  Edmure, yes, I'm glad the Freys did what they did to he and Cat.  If there is justice, Hoster, Rickard, Robert, and Jon Arryn  can see all of this from a 60" high definition monitor from the afterlife.  The destruction of their families.  What's happening to them is what they did to the royal family whom they swore loyalty to.  

The small folk are asking the right question.  Are we better off today under Baratheon rule (Tommen is a Baratheon until proven otherwise) or better under the Targaryens?  Daenerys looks like a classic Targaryen, she has regal bearing,  she has charisma,  she knows how to say the the right words,  the dragons are convincing proof of who she is.  The majority of the small folk would openly rebel against their liege lords if they oppose her. 

The Unsullied do not rape or plunder.  They will be welcomed rather than opposed by the common people.   The resistance will be few and hopefully feeble.  It will come from the Lannisters.  There are many who want to take lions down and looking for a strong leader to make it happen.  It will happen.

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1 hour ago, Hammers1895 said:

If Stannis had been willing to ally w/ Renly and Robb, they would have won.

I wonder why this idea is always constructed this way within the fandom. It can be equally said that if Renly or Robb had been willing to ally with Stannis they would have won. Additionally, Stannis is the one still alive. I guess it is just perverse human nature to say the last one left standing was the one who made the worst decision.

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16 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

She barely paid any heed to Barristan's stories even though she asked him to tell her.

It was almost as if she wants to hear "stories" as some little child who's bored, not to learn something useful. 

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don't think Dany will have much of a problem.  Because even the leading families of Robert's rebellion, if they have the brains that God gave an ox, will realize they were better off under Targaryen rule compared to what they have now.  They are simply paying back and suffering for rebelling 15 or so years ago.  Those damned Baratheon, Starks, Arryns, and Tully's thought they could do better than the Targaryens.  They're so wrong and they're receiving their rewards.  They have to be thinking with their feeble minds what a mistake it was to rebel over something so trivial when compared to the damage they caused.

I would not care how the Baratheon, Starks, Arryns, and Tully's feel if I were Dany.  Their opinions do not matter.  The Baratheons, Starks, and Edmure are homeless irrelevants who are now experiencing what Princess Daenerys and King Viserys III had to experience.  I don't want life to get better for the Baratheons, the Starks, the Arryns, and the Tully's.  

Rickard Stark's family lost it all and there is symmetry and fairness because they did the same to the Targaryens.  The Baratheons need to suffer and die off.  Edmure, yes, I'm glad the Freys did what they did to he and Cat.  If there is justice, Hoster, Rickard, Robert, and Jon Arryn  can see all of this from a 60" high definition monitor from the afterlife.  The destruction of their families.  What's happening to them is what they did to the royal family whom they swore loyalty to.  

The small folk are asking the right question.  Are we better off today under Baratheon rule (Tommen is a Baratheon until proven otherwise) or better under the Targaryens?  Daenerys looks like a classic Targaryen, she has regal bearing,  she has charisma,  she knows how to say the the right words,  the dragons are convincing proof of who she is.  The majority of the small folk would openly rebel against their liege lords if they oppose her. 

The Unsullied do not rape or plunder.  They will be welcomed rather than opposed by the common people.   The resistance will be few and hopefully feeble.  It will come from the Lannisters.  There are many who want to take lions down and looking for a strong leader to make it happen.  It will happen.

Lol, what I’m the world makes you think :

1) things were any better for the small folk under Targaryen rule?

2) anyone should accept their father and brother being tortured and executed then walk meekly to ones own execution? Aery’s own son was plotting to overthrow him.

2) Targaryens have any more right to rule than anyone else?

3) anyone regrets rebelling?

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5 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

She barely paid any heed to Barristan's stories even though she asked him to tell her.

It was almost as if she wants to hear "stories" as some little child who's bored, not to learn something useful. 

I don't really recall, but I don't think it was that she wasn't paying attention to what Barristan was saying, it was always that something major would come up as he was starting his story so he never got the chance to tell it.  I do find it really interesting that GRRM saw fit to include this a couple times where he teases Dany learning the truth about Robert's Rebellion but doesn't get to actually hear it.  Is is foreshadowing for a major issue?  Will Barristan die before ever seeing Dany again and getting to tell her?

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Not gonna argue whether what will Dany do is justified or not, because ultimately it depends on person's opinion.

Anyways, wanted to write that I think Daenerys would want to avenge her family and try to execute people associated with War of Usurper, and take away land from their families and give it to her supporters. She has very idealized version of her family in her mind and she is willing to commit violence or break her own word if in her opinion she can benefit from it. She also really don't like listening to people with opposing views and is really stubborn and can be very harsh when angered, to the point of ordering torture and execution of innocent people.

Of course many leaders in Westeros like Tywin, Littlefinger or even Stannis also like to use violence as way to achieve goals. Just wanted to point out some of her characteristics. You can interpret this however you want.

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:


 Rickard Stark's family lost it all and there is symmetry and fairness because they did the same to the Targaryens.  The Baratheons need to suffer and die off.  Edmure, yes, I'm glad the Freys did what they did to he and Cat.  If there is justice, Hoster, Rickard, Robert, and Jon Arryn  can see all of this from a 60" high definition monitor from the afterlife.  The destruction of their families.  What's happening to them is what they did to the royal family whom they swore loyalty to. 

:blink:I think it's time you take your pills.

As for Dany not having much of a problem, that's a good one when you consider the mess she has caused in Essos, and after all we don't know if she'll manage to go to Westeros and with whom…

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30 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

:blink:I think it's time you take your pills.

As for Dany not having much of a problem, that's a good one when you consider the mess she has caused in Essos, and after all we don't know if she'll manage to go to Westeros and with whom…

Dany is a fine conqueror but totally inept as an administrator. And who are her projected allies in her return to power? Dothraki and Ironborn. Good luck with that.  

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

She barely paid any heed to Barristan's stories even though she asked him to tell her.

It was almost as if she wants to hear "stories" as some little child who's bored, not to learn something useful. 

That is human nature.  Did Arya want to hear of her father's love affair with Ashara Dayne?  How did Arya react?  Rather rudely, rather crudely.  Nobody likes to hear something negative about their family.  Dany is not any different in that respect.  What makes her special is her ability to set aside differences in order to get something done.  Nothing turns Dany off more than slavery and yet we know she tried to make peace with them and conceded a lot to save lives. 

 

20 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

You mean it's not completely fabricated.  Look, most of the characters are ignorant about what their elders did.  The Starks are the best examples.  They go about blaming the Targaryens for the death of their aunt who ran away from a commitment to pursue another man.  It doesn't matter if that man was Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, or whoever.  She ran away to escape a situation she didn't like and the Starks continue thinking she was a victim.  And the greatest sin, Ned let them continue to think it rather than tarnish the family image.  The NK was a Stark.  I wonder how the Starks would feel knowing that.  It was carefully hidden and removed from the records to preserve their honor.  I have this feeling that Rickard and Brandon knew Lyanna ran off on her own but family honor and reputation led them to accuse Rhaegar of kidnapping.  Because if it ever became known that Lyanna ran off to break her engagement to Robert it is a blight on the honor of house stark.

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