Pride of Driftmark

Who will tell Daenerys the Truth, and more importantly, what effect will it have?

120 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He does tend to be a bit of a smart mouth when it suits him or when he is angry enough.  I can see him being honest with Dany should the situation arise.  

I agree. Even something blurted out out of spite/anger etc. 

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24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. Even something blurted out out of spite/anger etc. 

Yah, I fully expect Tyrion to become a slayer of lies.

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3 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

The posts on this thread is really telling on where each comment writer's loyalties are.  For proof that the fans are divided, one look no further than this thread.

So, Pride of Driftmark, do you think Stannis would have shown any mercy to Viserys and Daenerys if he had managed to catch up with them on Dragonstone?  Prince (King) Viserys and Princess Daenerys would have gotten no better treatment than Ellia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.  Seriously, the rebels would not have shown mercy to Viserys and Daenerys.  Even a lord less of an asshole than Stannis would have killed the children.  That's one way to protect Robert's new reign and curry favor with him at the same time. 

So this takes us back to the present.  Given that the "Usurper and his dogs" would not have shown any mercy to Viserys and Daenerys if they had been caught at Dragonstone, why do you feel Daenerys is obligated to show the families of the "Usurper and his dogs" any mercy?  I for one do not feel Daenerys owes them any breaks.  They certainly would not have shown her brother and her any breaks if the situation had been reversed.  And it was reversed years ago.  Daenerys has the right to treat those people in any way she finds acceptable.  I don't think she will harm them without good cause for the simple reason that she's a better person than the Usurper's supporters.  But we need to understand that she owes them nothing and she can treat them the way they would have treated her at Dragonstone those many years ago.

Yep. Stannis would have killed them. House Targaryen and the Lords of Westeros were at war, and that war is now over. The whole story is about how we can't blame one specific person for any specific event. You could make an argument that it was Aegon the Conqueror who caused the rebellion by bringing House Targaryen to Westeros in the first place. You could argue it was Jon Arryn who started it, by rising in rebellion. You could argue it was Maester Walys who started the Rebellion by trying to get Rickard to ally with the Tullys. The whole point of this story is "bad stuff happens and it happened regardless of whose fault it was". Stannis would have killed Viserys and Daenerys no question, and now Daenerys will want her vengeance. I am just curious as to whether or not she will change her position or rethink aggravating the cycle of vengeance when she learns the whole truth about the War. 

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On 2/16/2018 at 8:05 PM, Belwas the Bodyguard said:

How did Arya react when told her father loved Ashara Dayne?  Very unladylike and rude.  None of what Arya heard sunk in that oddly long head of hers.  It's natural for people to have a sore spot when family is concerned.  How did Robb react when told his father betrayed Prince Joffrey?  He called his levies and declared a rebellion.  How did Ned react when first meeting Petyr in King's Landing?  With a little bit of hostility and none too polite.  Nobody wants to hear anything negative about their family.  Daenerys is human and reacting like a human.  To her credit, Dany is very, very smart and perceptive for her age.  Whatever annoyance she may have for the rebels is not a grudge that will lead to anything beyond that. 

Westeros will be in ruins very soon and the people will look for someone to turn to.  Whatever faults the three hundred years of Targaryen rule may have had, it was never as bad as the current state of Westeros.  Can you imagine if King Tommen had to address the nation and give a "State of the Kingdom Address!" 

Dearly beloved noblemen and commoners, we are gathered here today so that I may share with you the current state of the nation.  A rogue element called the Brotherhood has been menacing the Riverlands and threatening the farm folk.  A pack of rabid wolves menace and kill livestock beyond what they need for sustenance.  It has also come to my attention that our friends to the South may in principle be our enemies as they have been planning the restoration of the Targaryens.  My disgraced uncle, the kinslayer, is still at large.  My fa--, ahem, my uncle is away on business and refuse my mother's summons.  The rebel lord Stannis is still at the moment encamped around Winterfell and threaten the rule of my appointed Warden of the North.  The lord commander of the watch recently allowed the passage of wildlings into the north and made threat to attack Lord Bolton.  An unknown enemy is attacking the western seas. My mother's new bodyguard doesn't talk but he gives me the creeps.  My sweet sister Myrcella lost an ear and now her Ray-Bans hang crooked.   And to top it all off, my mom walked naked in public!!!!!  Gods be good, I'm gonna need therapy.  So there you have it, the state of the nation's address. 

I don't predict much resistance to the restoration of House Targaryen.  While people fear dragons, they are also awed by their majesty and many would travel considerable distance just to behold the sight of Dany's three dragons. 

People are more alike than different. 

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36 minutes ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

Yep. Stannis would have killed them. House Targaryen and the Lords of Westeros were at war, and that war is now over. The whole story is about how we can't blame one specific person for any specific event. You could make an argument that it was Aegon the Conqueror who caused the rebellion by bringing House Targaryen to Westeros in the first place. You could argue it was Jon Arryn who started it, by rising in rebellion. You could argue it was Maester Walys who started the Rebellion by trying to get Rickard to ally with the Tullys. The whole point of this story is "bad stuff happens and it happened regardless of whose fault it was". Stannis would have killed Viserys and Daenerys no question, and now Daenerys will want her vengeance. I am just curious as to whether or not she will change her position or rethink aggravating the cycle of vengeance when she learns the whole truth about the War. 

Well you know, there will be war to retake Westeros if the Baratheons and the Starks resist. 

If I were in Dany's place and the man who would have killed me when I was a baby is standing right in front of me.  Boy, I would be sorely tempted to give him a slow roasting.  But I don't think Dany will do that unless they are at war.  Say Dany comes to Westeros and Stannis, Edmure, and whoever is left of Robert's old crew opposes her claim and they're in battle.  What do you expect Dany to do?  If they're fighting against her then her only choices are to withdraw and let them have their way, or to defeat them in battle.  I do not advice withdrawal because Westeros is hers.  If Stark fans can justify going to war to boot the Boltons out of Winterfell and take it back for the Starks, then they should be able to admit that Dany is just as right to go to war to take back her family's kingdom.   If Stannis, the Starks, and Edmure Tully are willing to go to war against Dany then she really has no choice but to kill them.  She would be entirely right to do so. 

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33 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Well you know, there will be war to retake Westeros if the Baratheons and the Starks resist. 

If I were in Dany's place and the man who would have killed me when I was a baby is standing right in front of me.  Boy, I would be sorely tempted to give him a slow roasting.  But I don't think Dany will do that unless they are at war.  Say Dany comes to Westeros and Stannis, Edmure, and whoever is left of Robert's old crew opposes her claim and they're in battle.  What do you expect Dany to do?  If they're fighting against her then her only choices are to withdraw and let them have their way, or to defeat them in battle.  I do not advice withdrawal because Westeros is hers.  If Stark fans can justify going to war to boot the Boltons out of Winterfell and take it back for the Starks, then they should be able to admit that Dany is just as right to go to war to take back her family's kingdom.   If Stannis, the Starks, and Edmure Tully are willing to go to war against Dany then she really has no choice but to kill them.  She would be entirely right to do so. 

I love Daenerys. I think she has the potential to be a great great leader. But, WAR IS BAD. That's the lesson. I would respect Daenerys a lot more if she would put aside vengeance and seek alliance- essentially, she has the opportunity to be the better person. She has the opportunity to do what Tywin and Robert were unwilling to do- forgive and forget, for the good of future generations. Daenerys has the ability to forgive and show mercy- stop that "wheel" if you will. All of the characters in ASOIAF have an incredibly narrow worldview, and Daenerys has the ability to change that- she could become a savior. 

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Dany is surely savior to wineseller and his daughters.

People who defend her actions should accept that she isn't very different from other leaders in Westeros. She uses violence, doesn't like to adapt and is willing to break her word if she thinks she is justified.

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5 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Dany is surely savior to wineseller and his daughters.

People who defend her actions should accept that she isn't very different from other leaders in Westeros. She uses violence, doesn't like to adapt and is willing to break her word if she thinks she is justified.

The girl who donned "floppy ears" and ate a raw horse heart "doesn't like to adapt"? I'd say Dany is the most flexible character in the series, constantly taking up the customs of the people she rules.

And she's shown, repeatedly, that she is different from the average leader. She is violent, yes, but how many lords in Westeros would have reflected on their own violence? How many would have freed all those slaves? How many would have stayed in Meereen to try to stabilise the city before moving onto Westeros? People always bring up the wineseller's daughters, but leave out that it was an uncharacteristic act for her.

Edited by Hodor the Articulate

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4 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

I love Daenerys. I think she has the potential to be a great great leader. But, WAR IS BAD. That's the lesson. I would respect Daenerys a lot more if she would put aside vengeance and seek alliance- essentially, she has the opportunity to be the better person. She has the opportunity to do what Tywin and Robert were unwilling to do- forgive and forget, for the good of future generations. Daenerys has the ability to forgive and show mercy- stop that "wheel" if you will. All of the characters in ASOIAF have an incredibly narrow worldview, and Daenerys has the ability to change that- she could become a savior. 

Forgive and forget goes both ways.  I expect the Starks to be just as good of a people, behave themselves, and kneel. 

To be fair, you do also expect the Starks and Jon to be the better people and show mercy to the Boltons and the Freys when/if they take back Winterfell.  Right?

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The girl who donned "floppy ears" and ate a raw horse heart "doesn't like to adapt"? I'd say Dany is the most flexible character in the series, constantly up the customs of the people she rules.

And she's shown, repeatedly, that she is different from the average leader. She is violent, yes, but how many lords in Westeros would have reflected on their own violence? How many have freed all those slaves? How many have stayed in Meereen to try to stabilise the city before moving onto Westeros? People always bring up the wineseller's daughters, but leave out that it was an uncharacteristic act for her.

She does show flexibility and adaptability.

3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Dany is surely savior to wineseller and his daughters.

People who defend her actions should accept that she isn't very different from other leaders in Westeros. She uses violence, doesn't like to adapt and is willing to break her word if she thinks she is justified.

Breaking your word to the slave masters is a lot less dishonorable than breaking your oaths to an ancient order like the Night's Watch. 

Edited by Helena Kyle

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On February 13, 2018 at 6:15 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Funniest stuff I've read here in a while. Loving it! :lol:

To the OP: Yes, I believe Dany will learn the whole ugly truth, especially about Daddy Dearest. How she'll react/deal w/ it is another matter. As someone said a while back, Dany's coin (greatness x madness) is still flipping in the air. I think she won't go the mad route, but I agree w/ whoever said that that it's still too early to tell. 

 

On February 13, 2018 at 7:04 PM, zandru said:

Well, since learning just a little more about Daddy Aerys, Daenerys has been sanity-checking herself with every decision - is this a cuckoo-bananas action, or justified? This further argues that Dany will be looking for warning signs in herself and do what she can to prevent herself from taking crazy actions. This is the sign of a very sane woman, in my non-medically-trained opinion.

In retrospect, it sure seems that rising up to overthrow the legitimate (although paranoid and delusional) king, when there was a perfectly excellent, well-loved heir available and trying to ease his father into retiring, was a suboptimal decision. In a sane world, the great lords and prince would have put their heads together and found a way to advance Rhaegar to the Iron Throne, and maybe give Aerys a nice, quiet retirement somewhere, like Dorne.

Of course, this sensible solution was precluded by Robert Baratheon's cock.

 

On February 14, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Not nearly as delusional as the Stark supporters.  

OMG! I love this thread. It is so nice to have so many Danaerys fans here. You guys are the best and you can see how perfect Danaerys Stormborn is to finish the Westeros restoration. She is definitely my favorite character and I can see why she is the favorite of Martin. She has been calm and measured in all of her decisions even though she is in a new land and has people trying to kill her for real this time. I know now that that hired killers Viserys said followed them were actually never there. Its pretty obvious that Danaerys and Jon are going to get together and rule Westeros to help put it back together, but I know it is going to be Danaerys who is really the high emperor ruling Queen. 

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5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The girl who donned "floppy ears" and ate a raw horse heart "doesn't like to adapt"? I'd say Dany is the most flexible character in the series, constantly taking up the customs of the people she rules.

By the end of last book she has shown that she have distaste for mereenese culture and regrets peace she had created.

“They have opened a slave market within sight of my walls!”

“Outside our walls, sweet queen. That was a condition of the peace, that Yunkai would be free to trade in slaves as before, unmolested.”

…Yunkai will trade in slaves, Meereen will not, this is what we have agreed. Endure this for a little while longer, and it shall pass.”

…All of the entertainers were slaves. That had been part of the peace, that slaveowners be allowed the right to bring their chattels into Meereen without fear of having them freed. In return the Yunkai’i had promised to respect the rights and liberties of the former slaves that Dany had freed. A fair bargain, Hizdahr said, but the taste it left in the queen’s mouth was foul. She drank another cup of wine to wash it out.

 

I hate this, thought Daenerys Targaryen. How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I’d sooner flay? … This is peace, she told herself. This is what I wanted, what I worked for, this is why I married Hizdahr. So why does it taste so much like defeat?

 

And there is this quote about "floppy ears" in one of her last chapters:

 The boar buried his snout in Barsena’s belly and began rooting out her entrails. The smell was more than the queen could stand. The heat, the flies, the shouts from the crowd … I cannot breathe. She lifted her veil and let it flutter away. She took her tokar off as well. The pearls rattled softly against one another as she unwound the silk.

“Khaleesi?” Irri asked. “What are you doing?”

Taking off my floppy ears.”

 

5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

And she's shown, repeatedly, that she is different from the average leader. She is violent, yes, but how many lords in Westeros would have reflected on their own violence? How many would have freed all those slaves? How many would have stayed in Meereen to try to stabilise the city before moving onto Westeros? People always bring up the wineseller's daughters, but leave out that it was an uncharacteristic act for her.

 
Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon's mercy. "Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply."
"I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him."
"Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly. "I will have no more Unsullied slaughtered. Grey Worm, pull your men back to their barracks. Henceforth let them guard my walls and gates and person. From this day, it shall be for Meereenese to keep the peace in Meereen. Skahaz, make me a new watch, made up in equal parts of shavepates and freedmen."
 
She has shown absolutely no remorse over torture of most likely innocent man and his daughters.
 
 
And by time she arrived in Dothraki Sea, she starts having visions reminding her that she is blood of the dragon. 

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. 

 

And here Dany finally rejects "planting trees" and embraces her family words.

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13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. Even something blurted out out of spite/anger etc. 

Meh, I don't see it. He has no hard love for any of his remaining kin-if Daenarys rants(as if she'd ever) on how evil they were, well Tyrion wouldn't jump to their defense-and given he was but a boy and would only hear second-accounts from the man who'd betrayed Tyrion and who murdered her father-I just don't see him bringing up the rumours he's heard of how cruel Aerys was. I don't think this will be like the show to where Tyrion dishes out the hard truth upon Daenarys (maybe to save a lot of lives)-all Tyrion cares about is using this girl to get his vengeance-if thinking her family were wrongfully displaced achieves that end he will allow her delusions-even when mad he's learned better to keep it under control

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The girl who donned "floppy ears" and ate a raw horse heart "doesn't like to adapt"? I'd say Dany is the most flexible character in the series, constantly taking up the customs of the people she rules.

And she's shown, repeatedly, that she is different from the average leader. She is violent, yes, but how many lords in Westeros would have reflected on their own violence? How many would have freed all those slaves? How many would have stayed in Meereen to try to stabilise the city before moving onto Westeros? People always bring up the wineseller's daughters, but leave out that it was an uncharacteristic act for her.

The wine sellers daughter I don't feel was an uncharacteristic act of her. She can be pretty merciless at times to those who may have some connection to the suffering of the people she cares for. She murderd every none-slave male above the age of 12 in Astaphor. She burned the witch alive and never has a moment where she goes maybe the witch had a good reason to want stop Drogo from bringing Khalshar to Westeroes to do what he had done to the witch's people.

She's not evil but at times she can be ...I don't know careless.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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6 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

She is definitely my favorite character and I can see why she is the favorite of Martin.

Dany isn't Martin's fave, Tyrion is. :)

 

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3 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

By the end of last book she has shown that she have distaste for mereenese culture and regrets peace she had created.

The point is, though, that Dany did try to assimilate into Meereenese culture, just as she did with the Dothraki, which contradicts your claim that she doesn't like to adapt.

4 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:
She has shown absolutely no remorse over torture of most likely innocent man and his daughters.
 
And by time she arrived in Dothraki Sea, she starts having visions reminding her that she is blood of the dragon. 

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. 

 

And here Dany finally rejects "planting trees" and embraces her family words.

I already said she is violent, but she also often reflects on it ("There is blood on my hands too, and on my heart. We are not so different, Daario and I. We are both monsters").

In the Dothraki Sea, she reconciles her "Mhysa" side with her dragon side.

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The wine sellers daughter I don't feel was an uncharacteristic act of her. She can be pretty merciless at times to those who may have some connection to the suffering of the people she cares for. She murderd every none-slave male above the age of 12 in Astaphor. She burned the witch alive and never has a moment where she goes maybe the witch had a good reason to want stop Drogo from bringing Khalshar to Westeroes to do what he had done to the witch's people.

She's not evil but at times she can be ...I don't know careless.

I agree that Dany is merciless to her enemies when she is fueled by compassion, as was the case with the wineseller's daughters. I say it was uncharacteristic though, because torturing the daughters while the father looks on was Shavepate's idea. She wasn't even thinking about questioning anyone "sharply" until prompted by the Shavepate. Her original idea was just to question the wineseller and the daughters separately, and to investigate whatever names they bring up.

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5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The wine sellers daughter I don't feel was an uncharacteristic act of her. She can be pretty merciless at times to those who may have some connection to the suffering of the people she cares for. She murderd every none-slave male above the age of 12 in Astaphor. She burned the witch alive and never has a moment where she goes maybe the witch had a good reason to want stop Drogo from bringing Khalshar to Westeroes to do what he had done to the witch's people.

She's not evil but at times she can be ...I don't know careless.

  1. The people she executed in Astapor all wore the tokar.  The tokar is a garment only worn by the Master Class.  None of those were innocents.
  2. The wine seller's daughters and her father had good reason to be suspected.  They are suspected of participating in terrorism.  It is reasonable to torture them for information.  What do you think Robb and his soldiers did to the Lannister scouts they captured.
  3. Mirri murdered Rhaego.  How do you think the Starks would react if somebody murdered little Rickon.

All the above actions are reasonable for the circumstance. 

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2 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

They are suspected of participating in terrorism.  It is reasonable to torture them for information.

Sure, since we know how well torturing people for information works. And that's not even touching on the morality of it. :rolleyes:

 

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14 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:
  1. The people she executed in Astapor all wore the tokar.  The tokar is a garment only worn by the Master Class.  None of those were innocents.
  2. The wine seller's daughters and her father had good reason to be suspected.  They are suspected of participating in terrorism.  It is reasonable to torture them for information.  What do you think Robb and his soldiers did to the Lannister scouts they captured.
  3. Mirri murdered Rhaego.  How do you think the Starks would react if somebody murdered little Rickon.

All the above actions are reasonable for the circumstance. 

1.)A 13 year old boy is guilty enough to warrant to be murdered? 

2.) We're talking about torturing the family's of a potential affiliate with a terrorist organization vs torturing a soldier-both are bad but the former I'd expect to see from Tywin more than Robb-but truth be told such protections against for POWs and civilians captured would be extended only to those of high birth.

3.) Maego was raped repeatedly everyone she loved murdered  and/or raped and enslaved in Drogo's efforts to scrounge up funds to build a fleet to introduce the same savagery to Westeroes-Daenarys never thinks on maybe the woman deserves some iota pity.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure, since we know how well torturing people for information works. And that's not even touching on the morality of it. :rolleyes:

 

Meh, in this day, torture(on specific people) wouldn't be seen as controversial to gather information. I have to give Daenarys some credit for actually recognizing how fruitless endeavor it seemed-but also condemn her for then continuing it due to a hot flash of anger at the murder of some of her followers.

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On 13/02/2018 at 1:35 AM, Pride of Driftmark said:

At the end of ASoS, Daenerys learns the truth about Aerys. The Mad King's reputation was not fabricated. This haunts her throughout ADWD, and she wonders what sort of legacy she's truly inherited (I love this, btw). However, Dany is still blissfully ignorant about the whole story of the War of the Usurper. She still considers Eddard Stark a cold man who rebelled from some sort of psychopathic vengeance. Will someone ever tell her the truth? Will she learn about Rickard and Brandon, about the wildfire plot (this one's unlikely, as only Jaime knows), about Rhaegar and Lyanna (at least the commonly accepted in-universe story), or about the call for Ned and Robert's head?

That's not the major problem, though. The major thing that I am curious about IS WILL SHE CARE? Does Daenerys have empathy enough to not wipe out every Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Lannister, and Tully (not that there's many of any of them left) when she arrives in Westeros? Will learning the truth about the history of her house and its conflicts matter to her? Is she too focused on her ultimate goal of Fire and Blood to change?

I think the big thing for Dany is she needs to stop defining herself by Rhaegar who, when all is said and done, sew the seeds of his own destruction and destroyed his family. She idolised him in her dream partly because Viserys clearly idolized his big brother, too, and saw what happened to him as a tragic love story and not the completely selfish act it really was.

So, yes I have hope that Dany will let go of her hate for the Houses and hopefully will understand there are two sides to every story. Giving up on the Iron Throne will be hard for her but getting past her sense of entitlement would be a massive step for her. I think she'll get there in the end but only by seeing for herself that her perception of "me and them" is wrong.

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