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Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

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Because it's not really much of a theory and falls apart under scrutiny.

Literally the books start off telling us that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her as per Roberts accusations. To which we dont know are real or not. 

The idea that Jon who is the main person we are told has parentage in question, is the child of said rape or love making. Is not much of a theory or a reach. It's actually really basic. 

It also hardly seems inline with the nuanced actions of Varys, LF, Roose, Doran, or others. GRRM does not seem to write that basic of narratives.

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Those of us who caught on to the many clues about R+L=J have had time to a lot of re-reads, discussions and other media. If the books are finished, readers after us won’t have years and years to speculate and some readers will take the coming proofs very naturally.

The Red Wedding was well foreshadowed and didnt have decades to wonder if the Frey’s would really be so vengeful as to commit that massacre.

The writing time lag makes this theory seem mainstream.

i still believe Bran, Lyanna’s crypt, and yes maybe even Sam and Gilles research will spill more beans. 

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5 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Those of us who caught on to the many clues about R+L=J have had time to a lot of re-reads, discussions and other media. If the books are finished, readers after us won’t have years and years to speculate and some readers will take the coming proofs very naturally.

The Red Wedding was well foreshadowed and didnt have decades to wonder if the Frey’s would really be so vengeful as to commit that massacre.

The writing time lag makes this theory seem mainstream.

i still believe Bran, Lyanna’s crypt, and yes maybe even Sam and Gilles research will spill more beans. 

Why would Eddard carry Rhaegars frggin harp all the way back to the North to put in a crypt? That must be one one those small hand harps? Cause a real harp is freakin big yo. Thats like burying your sister with a piano. 

Plus, why would Eddard hide a secret for Jon in her tomb? Thats weird. Why would he assume Jon would molest her grave and open it?

Eddard could easily have told Jon the truth had he wanted with out all that weirdness. Also, Mance is looking for those crypts? Why would Mance care? 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Let me start by saying first that hating a theory is not the same as thinking that it is incorrect. People have different opinions about whether Lyanna Rhaegar live story, but that has no bearing over the truth/falsehood of R+L=J. But that point shouldn't even be raised in this thread because the OP seems to be asking why ppl hate the theory. Not whether it is true or not. You may hate a theory because you don't agree with it, as some people don't agree with it and have said so, but to say that everybody that hates the theory disagrees with it would be a mistake. I'm sure there are people that hate the Red Wedding (like all of them, I think) despite all the foreshadowings associated with it. That doesn't mean they say that it never happened.

As to why I hate this theory, when I first read ASOIAF, I was deeply impressed by a few things of the books. They were deconstructing trope after trope. The feminine girl became awesome without becoming boyish, the Lord died inspite of his important, as did the king. There seemed to be no clear hero, unlike Harry Potter or Frodo or even the Hunger Games. The magic seemed to be behind the scenes, and the mages seemed to be just as struggling as the ordinary, unlike Dumbledore and Gandalf.

And then comes the revelation of R+L=J. Until now, the prophecies were just rumors, any prince could be TPtwP, there was no restriction of birth on the Azor Ahai, and I in fact thought that Jon would be the last hero, given his dream depicted his brothers deserting him in the fight against the Others. But take R+L=J, and Jon is TPtwP, instead of Stannis or Dany or Bran or Tyrion... This theory reigns so supreme that it takes away many things I loved about the series. Until now, the birth of people didn't seem to matter, but their actions. Not that Jon's actions aren't noble, but then again, he's the TPtwP, obviously he'll do the right thing. I had attributed the things Jon did to his personality, but now I'm attributing them to his birth. Before, he was a bastard who rose, now he's a prince who rose, what's awesome in that? A person with a special birth is important, what else is new? The game suddenly starts feeling rigged, and takes away many dangers. Harry Potter, the arrogant idiot, got his way because of an event in his past that he had no control over. Now we know for certainty that Jon isn't dead, because he has that prophecy to fulfill. He is also no longer a bastard because Robb legitimized him, so he has a legitimate claim to the IT. So the hero - before there was no hero, but there is definately one now - has everything set for him. What else is new?

ASoIaF was deconstructing the tropes, and suddenly there's this hugely important guy. That said, I don't think Martin intended for it to play out this way. He wasn't planning the huge wait between the books, which caused people like me to go out on the net and find out the truth. I'd have still hated it, because I'd still want to see Jon as a bastard son of some obscure lowborn woman who rose up to save the world rather than him being the son of the most awesome prince ever who saved the world. Granted, the first one is also a trope, but it's not a trope in this AWOIAF, so that in itself is a deconstruction. In this world where bloodlines are the norm, I never wanted his parentage revealed.

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Because people take R+L=J as a 100% guarantee and when you make a argument for... your wrong regardless of the points/evidence you bring up... R+L=A...

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Where did you get such an odd idea? Most book readers are not opposed to the idea of R+L=J.

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14 hours ago, zandru said:

Ned doing it with a boat wench from the Sisters

Given that this happened before Ned was married to Cat means that Ned would have little reason to keep the identity of Jon's mother a secret or keep him at winterfell for every one to see

14 hours ago, zandru said:

I also discount Willa.

The only source on this is a boy who is the same age as Sansa and therefore is too young to have witnessed these events and as a result this theory is just a flimsy

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1 hour ago, lAPPYc said:

Until now, the birth of people didn't seem to matter, but their actions. Not that Jon's actions aren't noble, but then again, he's the TPtwP, obviously he'll do the right thing.

Yeah? And how do you know that? What is the right thing that the PTWP is supposed to do, anyway, and from whose perspective? Is PTWP/AA even the good guy? Have you seen Babylon 5? The Shadows were the bad guys, the Vorlons the good guys... right?

It is the outcome that deconstructs the trope, not the setting. If you want to deconstruct the trope of a hidden prince/ prophesized saviour, you must first have one. Personally, I won't be disappointed even if the story goes the traditional way, but I really don't see a happy Jon proclaiming himself the Targaryen heir to the cheering crowds, defeating all evil and ruling happily ever after. His background is such that no everyone will be cheering or accepting of his claim, the Others and their reasons are pretty much an enigma and Jon is very much fond of his Stark identity, so I don't think the idea of being a Targ will be particularly appealing for him.

 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

What is the right thing that the PTWP is supposed to do, anyway, and from whose perspective?

I never said that TPtwP will do the right thing, or that him/her and AA are good guys. Quoting myself:

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Not that Jon's actions aren't noble, but then again, he's the TPtwP, obviously he'll do the right thing. I had attributed the things Jon did to his personality, but now I'm attributing them to his birth.

Again, I'm not saying that he'll do right thing. He's as free to do the wrong things(From our perspective, obviously, because the book is written for us to like or dislike.) as he is to do the right things. I'm just saying that I'll be attributing the goods things, if there are any, to his birth and in his role for a prophecy, instead of his personality. I'm not, also, saying that this attribution is right, just that I'll be feeling it and I'll be disappointed. And so even if GRRM makes Jon a bad guy(Again, to our eyes), I'll be thinking that he had to do that, 'cause he trapped himself in his need to deconstruct the trope. So one of the two things need to happen, and that takes away a lot of unpredictability, because before this theory we didn't eve know to look so hard at Jon.

For that matter, Jon doesn't need to be cheered by people to become king, nor does he need to accept or like his Targ heritage, or need it to be revealed to the realm, or even to himself. There are plenty of other ways he can become king. And if he does, I'll be thinking that he became king because of his birth, not necessarily because he deserved it, like Robert did, and Robb, and Aegon the Conquerer. Again, I'm not saying that this way of thinking is right, and many people won't be thinking like that. I'm saying that I won't like it, and that's why I hate this theory.

Edited by lAPPYc
typos

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Book Reader and I do not hate the Idea of R+L=J. My beef with it is that there are still unanswered questions as to how this all went down as Lyanna and Rheagar look pretty bad in not communicating with lots of people who had the absolute right to know what they were up to if it was indeed mutual.

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13 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

The writing time lag makes this theory seem mainstream.

R+L=J was plainly suggested the moment we read this, early in AGOT:

Quote

And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?

Anyone vaguely familiar with sex knows that if you have sex hundreds of times, you might well wind up with a child.

That, plus the overt mystery of Jon's parentage, is exactly what made R+L=J an obvious possibility the day AGOT was published.  It really should be an obvious possibility to everyone in Westeros as well; it should have been all of Jon's life.

As for book-reading fans, if they didn't realize that hundreds of instances of sex might yield a child, that's a little surprising.   Perhaps someone needs to sit those people down, and give them a little talk about what it means when men and women have a special hug.

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On 2/13/2018 at 9:08 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Only "Rhaegar + Lyanna" is a fact established in the books beyond any reasonable doubt. The unknown part is the exact nature of "R+L", and not if that's a thing or not.

Let's discuss something less certain, shall we? Like: did the Battle of the Trident actually happen, or was it just a fib made up by a drunk Bob Baratheon?

You mean, they had been betrothed for five years ("I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon"), but nobody told Lyanna?

And that's the problem with the competing theories, the vomit-inducing B+L=J first among them: they rely of blatantly making up stuff not present in the books, and ignoring stuff actually present in the books. As you demonstrated a few times in a relatively short post.

I forgot to quote this one in my response. It gels with my sig 

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14 hours ago, JNR said:

No vowels.

Nice. Best retort  EVAAAHR!!!

 

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On 2/13/2018 at 10:51 AM, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

But it doesn't make perfect sense.

What sense does it make for the heir of the throne,  who is already on his fathers/kings shit list,  to steal some northern girl and piss off an entire region who already dispises southerners and encite a rebellion?

It makes LESS sense than your comment about B+L=J because we have already seen incestuous relationships in the literature.  As far as I am concerned Brandon+Lyanna=Jon is just as good of a theory as R+L=J.  Maybe even more so.

What if Lyanna was crying at the tourney of Harrenhall because she just found out her one true love, her brother Brandon, was now betrothed to Cat?  

I would say it makes more sense that LITTLEFINGER had more to do with Lyanna's disapperance than did Rhaegar.  What better way to piss off the dude that pounded your ass in the dirt for the woman you loved than to steal the woman that Brandon loved.

Think about it...

Fair points.  

I think the truth of the matter is that there are competing theories out there that have an equal chance if not better of being right.

20 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

You cannot use that Other as proof of anything, other than bad screen writing from the show.

On 2/13/2018 at 10:13 AM, zandru said:

I think it makes perfect sense. Much more sense than Brandon f*cking his own sister, or even Ned doing it with a boat wench from the Sisters. I also discount Willa.

Not really.  Brandon and Lyanna provides symmetry to what the Targaryens are up to.  And this is a story with symmetry, Fire and Ice.

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15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You cannot use that Other as proof of anything, other than bad screen writing from the show.

It isn't bad writing. It is literally the central mystery of the series and unfortunately, the author's desire to have his work on HBO conflicted with his unfocused writing style 

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17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would Eddard carry Rhaegars frggin harp all the way back to the North to put in a crypt? That must be one one those small hand harps? Cause a real harp is freakin big yo. Thats like burying your sister with a piano. 

Plus, why would Eddard hide a secret for Jon in her tomb? Thats weird. Why would he assume Jon would molest her grave and open it?

Indeed. Rhaegar, reportedly, played the High Harp - the big one, not the small portable lyre-thing. I also agree - why would Eddard expect Jon to break open his aunt's tomb? Unlike many, I don't think there's a dragon in it.   ;-)

16 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

I had attributed the things Jon did to his personality, but now I'm attributing them to his birth. Before, he was a bastard who rose, now he's a prince who rose, what's awesome in that? A person with a special birth is important, what else is new?

Jon DID do all those things personally. As a bastard. As someone whose whole upbringing emphasized his bastardy and unworthiness. So, he (may have) Targaryen blood? Big deal - that never opened any doors for Jon because nobody ever knew about it, including Jon. Nobody knows he's (theoretically) a prince, so everything Jon did was totally on his own, in spite of being despised as a bastard.

Unless you think there's some kind of "magic" in inheritance that transcends appearance, behavior, upbringing, family name (or lack thereof) and all the rest. But I don't think even Melisandre believes that. Her "kingsblod" schtick is just to (1) fool the rubes and (2) get rid of powerful and potentially powerful people. There's a thread somewhere here where they're discussing "kingsblood" and its "magical" virtues - if any.

14 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Have you seen Babylon 5? The Shadows were the bad guys, the Vorlons the good guys... right?

Bless you, Ygrain for this classical reference! Makes me want to view the whole series again, if only it were available.

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Not really.  Brandon and Lyanna provides symmetry to what the Targaryens are up to.  And this is a story with symmetry, Fire and Ice.

Once again, ewwwwww. Plus, I thought we were talking Lannisters? Moreover, "a foolish symmetry is the hobgoblin of little minds."

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14 minutes ago, zandru said:

Indeed. Rhaegar, reportedly, played the High Harp - the big one, not the small portable lyre-thing. I also agree - why would Eddard expect Jon to break open his aunt's tomb? Unlike many, I don't think there's a dragon in it.   ;-)

I think he played both. For example, at Harrenhal:

Quote

At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp.

Put down. Hence, he had held it in his hand while playing. Hence, a reasonably light and fairly portable thing.

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4 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Put down. Hence, he had held it in his hand while playing. Hence, a reasonably light and fairly portable thing.

We're told he went to Summerhall with just his harp. I imagine it would have to be a small one that's easy to transport since he used to travel there unattended. 

Edited by Widow's Watch

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14 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

We're told he went to Summerhall with just his harp. I imagine it would have to be a small one that's easy to transport since he used to travel there unattended. 

Fine. Still doesn't explain why Ned planned to break into Lyanna's tomb - or expect Jon would, in his absence. Even if so, how would Ned prove ownership?

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