manchester_babe

Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

104 posts in this topic

I don't like this theory because it feels like the obvious path. GRRM doesn't walk on the obvious path all the time, his story is full of twists.

It is a good theory, it makes sense, but that doesn't mean it is the only possibility, that there's nothing else hidden.

The problem is that people are taking that theory as completely true, even though we didn't see it yet, GRRM's story isn't complete. The show took that path because they opted for the obvious and easier path, but GRRM is not the man of simple plots.

Edited by Shadow of Asshai

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3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It isn't bad writing. It is literally the central mystery of the series and unfortunately, the author's desire to have his work on HBO conflicted with his unfocused writing style 

Hi Dorian the D.  'Unfocused'?  You mean 'equivocal'?

I believe in RLJ, because long time ago in a galaxy far far away before I ever stumbled upon westeros and fell into the bloody blue rabbit hole, upon my very first reading of AGOT, never suspecting where it would take me, my intuition told me that it was true -- and I always trust my intuition ;)

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11 minutes ago, zandru said:

Fine. Still doesn't explain why Ned planned to break into Lyanna's tomb - or expect Jon would, in his absence. Even if so, how would Ned prove ownership?

I just came into the conversation, so I don't know what to tell you.

All I can really contribute is that Jon's dream reminds me of Dany's "wake the dragon" dream and Ned has one dream of the crypt that I can remember tied directly to Lyanna and whatever promise he made her. 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Jon DID do all those things personally. As a bastard. As someone whose whole upbringing emphasized his bastardy and unworthiness. So, he (may have) Targaryen blood? Big deal - that never opened any doors for Jon because nobody ever knew about it, including Jon. Nobody knows he's (theoretically) a prince, so everything Jon did was totally on his own, in spite of being despised as a bastard

Just so. That's why I think there's a good chance he won't change his surname. At all. 

How fitting is it, Jon Snow, King of Winter? :eek:

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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I haven't really found anyone hates the theory as such, just that they're bored with it. It's so 2006.

Tyrion being a secret Targ, though, blergh! Everyone hates that theory. And if you don't, your opinion is wrong, so change it.

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14 minutes ago, Yukle said:

I haven't really found anyone hates the theory as such, just that they're bored with it. It's so 2006.

Tyrion being a secret Targ, though, blergh! Everyone hates that theory. And if you don't, your opinion is wrong, so change it.

I'm averse to Tyrion as Targ, but unfortunately that's the way GRRM rolls... The evidence has persuaded me -- but I'll always hate it!

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22 minutes ago, Yukle said:

Tyrion being a secret Targ, though, blergh! Everyone hates that theory. And if you don't, your opinion is wrong, so change it.

Hear, hear!

29 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned has one dream of the crypt that I can remember tied directly to Lyanna and whatever promise he made her. 

My interpretation is that Ned dreamed of the crypt because that's where Lyanna's bones lay, and where her statue was, and basically was her final resting place. Not that it was some kind of family album, cache of secret goods. But who knows? Maybe there's a dozen dragon eggs in there. A cask of wildfire. A direwolf. A set of magical armor and laughing tree shield. A blue stained dress (sorry!)

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Just so. That's why I think there's a good chance he won't change his surname. At all. 

Good guess! It would be hard to give up "Lord Snow."

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It appears to me RhaRha played multiple size harps. A harp is a harp unless of course it is described in one place as a high harp and in another place as a harp.  One thing that is consistent in Martin’s description of the harp is that it had silver strings. Considering that harp strings were usually made from the intestines of animals that silver stringed harp musta been harsh on the fingers. I am reading fiction though.

I myself have a difficult time imaging how Eddard managed to get his sisters bones cleaned, acquire a wet nurse, return the sword Dawn, return Dustin’s horse and arrive at WF with baby before his wife and son. I dunna know, maybe when Eddard got home to WF Eddard sent Hoster a raven telling Hoster to send Lady Cat & baby Robb to WF.

I guess it could be said that Eddard tore down RhaRha's tower of joy ---- he & Howland took his sister’s body & her new born son to Starfall ----- delivered Dawn to the Dayne’s ----- had Lyanna’s dead body prepared ----acquired a wet nurse for baby ---- booked passage aboard a ship bound for wherever ----  returned the horse to Lady Dustin  --- all the while keeping baby & jugs hidden.

I have a real hard time imagining that Eddard planted sumthin in his sister’s tomb though. I mean to get at whatever Eddard may have hidden in his sister’s tomb the tomb would need to desecrated unless there is a pulley system down in the crypts that allows the removal of a slab of marble with a statue atop it.

Harp quotes in the reveal tab. For context of the interactions please check the chapters. Interestingly the remarks are made by Jorah, Semly, Cersei, and JonCon.

Spoiler

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V    Ser Jorah frowned.     Dany could not let it go. "His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I'm certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings."    Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I    "A wise man never makes an enemy of a king," said Dany. "Did you know my brother Rhaegar as well?"   "It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though, and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings."

A Feast for Crows - Cersei V    The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years. Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods.

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei V    She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar.      Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father's finest jousters, the flower of the west. By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep.

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn      "Of course, my lord."    As he climbed he remembered past ascents—a hundred with his lord father, who liked to stand and look out over woods and crags and sea and know that all he saw belonged to House Connington, and one (only one!) with Rhaegar Targaryen. Prince Rhaegar was returning from Dorne, and he and his escort had lingered here a fortnight. He was so young then, and I was younger. Boys, the both of us. At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp.

I’ve not really added anything to the discussion. I’ve merely added some information about RhaRha starting with CoK and ending with DwD. One of the interesting things I discovered was what Cersei remembered in FfC.

I don’t dispute R+L=J. I just don’t appreciate how Martin chose to finagle his way around Jon Snow’s parentage. The first time I read the tale I was extremely annoyed with the false leads.

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30 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

One of the interesting things I discovered was what Cersei remembered in FfC.

I also recall Cersei remembering how she drew a picture of herself with Prince Rhaegar riding on a dragon. Some would insist that this indicates Cersei will be a dragonrider. Which will really tick off Tyrion.

Thanks for all the quotes! I don't know if "silver strings" or "silver harp" ought to be taken literally. Many stronger metals look "silver", for example. These days, strings tend to be steel, often in the form of wrapped wires - and look "silvery." But that's technical enough that probably most people wouldn't know?

Looking forward (stop laughing) to how George RR explains the logistics of the Return from the Tower of Joy, the Delivery of Dawn, the Journey to Winterfell - all with a squalling baby. Clearly, Lord Eddard Stark was some kind of saint.

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That so many posters have to add something to the effect of “but I believe it so don’t rail on me” as a preemptive when raising any criticism of RLJ is probably a big reason why so many turned off by it. 

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14 minutes ago, zandru said:

(stop laughing)

Har! Weeel now, if Rhaegar played his silver stringed harp for me supposedly I would be crying. :P Ummmm, let me get my antenna adjusted, his harp was imbibed with magic.

22 minutes ago, zandru said:

Thanks for all the quotes!

Welcome :cool4:

23 minutes ago, zandru said:

Looking forward (stop laughing) to how George RR explains the logistics of the Return from the Tower of Joy, the Delivery of Dawn, the Journey to Winterfell - all with a squalling baby.

Serious now. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

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41 minutes ago, zandru said:

Looking forward (stop laughing) to how George RR explains the logistics of the Return from the Tower of Joy, the Delivery of Dawn, the Journey to Winterfell - all with a squalling baby. Clearly, Lord Eddard Stark was some kind of saint

I don't know how they traveled, but we saw a squalling baby in the story travel by sea. 

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7 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know how they traveled, but we saw a squalling baby in the story travel by sea. 

Just checking. Am I thinking what you are thinking? Are you speaking of the transport of Mance's son?

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13 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Just checking. Am I thinking what you are thinking? Are you speaking of the transport of Mance's son?

You are thinking what I'm thinking.

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6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm averse to Tyrion as Targ, but unfortunately that's the way GRRM rolls...

don't think so, Cersei an Jaime as Targaryens would be much more martinesque imo.

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8 hours ago, zandru said:

Indeed. Rhaegar, reportedly, played the High Harp

Good catch!

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/oaoa.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/a7/9a7677c6-e80d-11e6-a611-ffe7e35d9c72/58911eac7d82e.image.jpg?resize=760%2C537

High Harp for visual reference. 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"
"Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

 

 
Edited by AlaskanSandman

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42 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

don't think so, Cersei an Jaime as Targaryens would be much more martinesque imo.

TWOIAF contained information that made it almost impossible for Cersei and Jaime to be Aerys'. At the same time he provided information that made the Tyrion as Aerys' bastard much more likely.

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5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I myself have a difficult time imaging how Eddard managed to get his sisters bones cleaned, acquire a wet nurse, return the sword Dawn, return Dustin’s horse and arrive at WF with baby before his wife and son. I dunna know, maybe when Eddard got home to WF Eddard sent Hoster a raven telling Hoster to send Lady Cat & baby Robb to WF.

I guess it could be said that Eddard tore down RhaRha's tower of joy ---- he & Howland took his sister’s body & her new born son to Starfall ----- delivered Dawn to the Dayne’s ----- had Lyanna’s dead body prepared ----acquired a wet nurse for baby ---- booked passage aboard a ship bound for wherever ----  returned the horse to Lady Dustin  --- all the while keeping baby & jugs hidden.

 

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Looking forward (stop laughing) to how George RR explains the logistics of the Return from the Tower of Joy, the Delivery of Dawn, the Journey to Winterfell - all with a squalling baby. Clearly, Lord Eddard Stark was some kind of saint.

Er... guys, and where is it stated that Ned had the baby with him the whole time? I'd really have a hard time believing that no-one would ever put two and two together and figure out RLJ if he did.

The clever thing to do would be go to Starfall under the pretext of returning Dawn, send the baby North with Howland and switch the wetnurse a couple of times along the way. Meanwhile, return to KL with Lyanna's bones to report to Robert, pick up your army and return North, and either pick up Cat along the way or ravenmail her to go North.

As for Lyanna's bones: The easiest way would be cremation. Defleshing by bugs takes time, boiling the flesh requires equipment, and carrying the body somewhere means that 1) it starts decomposing if it takes too long, 2) people can see that she had been pregnant, and you don't want either.

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20 minutes ago, bent branch said:

TWOIAF contained information that made it almost impossible for Cersei and Jaime to be Aerys'. At the same time he provided information that made the Tyrion as Aerys' bastard much more likely.

Link?

Tyrion makes no sense in my eyes, he is nothing like aerys and almost exactly like tywin without the cruelty, and storywise it would be boring af.

Cersei and Jaime have many targaryen traids and as Tywin's favorite children, it would be a nice twist that they are not his children.

also Jaime had a dream of joanna saying tywin's children are neither a knight nor a queen, while cersei and jaime are exactly that, and at the time they were fathered joanna was around aerys, other than the time when tyrion was fathered.

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Whether it makes sense to you or not, TWOIAF made mention of where Joanna Lannister was at various times. The times given make it extremely  unlikely that Aerys fathered Cersei and Jaime, but made it entirely possible that Tyrion was Aerys' since Joanna was at court at the time she would have gotten pregnant with Tyrion. This is why some people who hate the idea have let themselves be convinced. To confirm it for yourself you can go to A Search of Ice and Fire website and search "Joanna" in TWOIAF. There are also several threads that deal with this issue. Particularly from around the time AWOIAF was released. So, in a nutshell, Aerys and Joanna nowhere near each other when the twins were conceived. Aerys and Joanna in the same place when Tyrion was conceived.

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