manchester_babe

Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

140 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I'm not even sure Frodo did die in the Undying Lands.  Changing a country's name would have involved a lot of tedious paperwork, etc.

Its the lands of the Undying that were removed from the world made round. He's going to heaven hahah 

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7 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I suppose many people don't ship them as a love match, but as a political match. And that makes sense for those who want Jon to be King in the North; if R+L=J is true, then Jon has a claim to the North, but he is a bastard so his claim will be difficult, but he can make his claim stronger by marrying one of his legitimate female cousins from his mother's older brother. In this case, Jonsa is preferable, as Sansa is older than Arya and thusly has a stronger claim.

Jonrya, on the other hand, I personally think is mostly a love match.

JonArya was 2/3 of George Martin's original love triangle.  Tyrion was the remaining third.  Jon was driven to jealousy.  It's a little late in the story now to develop that plot and keeping Jon dead is a more interesting plot.  However, love triangles are interesting.  I don't think George has given up on it.   We will probably get a less developed example in Winds.  Petyr-Sansa-Tyrion is likely.  

1.  Petyr, Sansa, and Tyrion.

2.  Gendry, Arya, and Jon if he comes back to life.

3.   Aegon, Dany, and Jorah.

4.   Jaime, Cersei, and Euron.

5.   Aegon,. Arianne, and Darkstar

6.  Sam, Gillie, and ?

 

 

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On 2/13/2018 at 9:51 AM, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

But it doesn't make perfect sense.

What sense does it make for the heir of the throne,  who is already on his fathers/kings shit list,  to steal some northern girl and piss off an entire region who already dispises southerners and encite a rebellion?

It makes LESS sense than your comment about B+L=J because we have already seen incestuous relationships in the literature.  As far as I am concerned Brandon+Lyanna=Jon is just as good of a theory as R+L=J.  Maybe even more so.

What if Lyanna was crying at the tourney of Harrenhall because she just found out her one true love, her brother Brandon, was now betrothed to Cat?  

I would say it makes more sense that LITTLEFINGER had more to do with Lyanna's disapperance than did Rhaegar.  What better way to piss off the dude that pounded your ass in the dirt for the woman you loved than to steal the woman that Brandon loved.

Think about it...

The ting about this is, we don't know the circumstances of Rhaegar taking Lyanna.

He could have taken her to protect her? Maybe Aerys found out that she was TKotLT and ordered men to kill her.

What we do know is this.

The Father:

Brandon was killed before the start of the war, so he can't be Jon's father; otherwise Jon would be nearly a year older than Robb.

Ned could be the father, but this would necessitate the mother making it through a war-zone, from the Vale, the North or the Riverlands, all the way to Dorne

Rhaegar went missing for nearly the entire war, and we can be certain that he was at the Tower of Joy, due to the the three Kingsguard knights that died there when Ned came for his sister.

The Mother:

Wylla, aside from Lyanna is the likeliest option. Edric is certain that Wylla is Jon Snow's mother, given that she nursed Jon Snow and was at Starfall around the time of his birth. Ned had to would have met her when he was there, and could have met her in passing while she was in service to House Dayne.

Ned never says that Wylla isn't his mother, but he never specifically says that she is. The subject makes him uncomfortable, I guess.

Ashara Dayne would also make sense, if Jon were born a year earlier, given that that was her last contact with either Stark brother before the war began and Jon isn't that old.

The Fisherman's Daughter- while she had the opportunity to meet with Ned, and her position as a seafarer makes it possible to travel to Dorne- is not likely the mother, due to the likelihood that her family is from the North/Vale area (given her contact with Ned between the North/Vale) and she would not likely make it to Dorne alone, and the son of a Lord would be a great boon to any family, so people would definitely talk.

Lyanna Stark has the Stark look- Jon's look. No one knows her state between when she was taken and when she was found. She had ample time to have a child (maybe even two, given the time that elapsed), and a handsome man (objectively speaking, based on testimony from Cersei Lannister and Oberyn Martell) to do this with, seeing as she was holed up with Rhaegar Targaryen during this time.

Known Factors:

  • Robb was born of Ned and Cat near the end of the war, around the same time as Jon Snow, based on Cat's estimation of their ages.
  • Brandon was taken before the war. (meaning he can't be the father)
  • Lyanna was taken before the Brandon. (meaning she couldn't have a kid with Ned, Brandon or Robert)
  • Ashara returned to Starfall, either early in the war or before the war. (meaning Ned and Brandon can't be the father of her child)

Unknown Factors:

  • Where Lyanna was taken.
  • The circumstances of her taking.
  • Where the fisherman's daughter went after they helped Ned.
  • Where Wylla was before Starfall.

In summation, your statement is full of plot-holes.

Situational analysis is key. It could have made perfect sense for Rhaegar to take Lyanna at the time, just like it could have made perfect sense for Lyanna to go willingly.

She could have been in immediate danger and seen Rhaegar as an out.

She could have been dragged against her will, raped and forced to have his baby, and found she was unwilling to commit this innocent life- regardless of his conception- to the Aegon/Rhaenys treatment.

Both of those situations make much more sense than you B+L=J suggestion. Especially since it's temporally impossible.

Thats's why I like R+L=J. It's the simplest and most sensible solution to an equation.

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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its the lands of the Undying that were removed from the world made round. He's going to heaven hahah 

Well, it's possible to go back and forth between the Undying Lands and Middle Earth, and indeed, huge groups of Tolkien's elves actually did that in the past.  I don't think they died and were resurrected.  

When Frodo goes there, he doesn't really seem to die, any more than Galadriel, who goes with him, or Gandalf, or Bilbo.

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58 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Brandon was killed before the start of the war, so he can't be Jon's father; otherwise Jon would be nearly a year older than Robb.

Just a few notes...

Jon is usually perceived by RLJ supporters as having been born around the time of the Sack.  If so, this would mean he was conceived about three months into the war, which means if Jon were Brandon's he could have been conceived somewhat more than three months earlier than that.  

So, in theory, Jon could be Brandon's and yet only three months or so older than Robb.

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Ned could be the father, but this would necessitate the mother making it through a war-zone, from the Vale, the North or the Riverlands, all the way to Dorne

The idea here seems to be that we know Jon was at the TOJ, but of course we don't know that.

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Rhaegar went missing for nearly the entire war, and we can be certain that he was at the Tower of Joy, due to the the three Kingsguard knights that died there when Ned came for his sister.

It is possible for the KG to go places even if Rhaegar hasn't been there himself. 

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Ned never says that Wylla isn't his mother, but he never specifically says that she is.

He does specifically say that she is:

Quote

 

"Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

 

So that's pretty straightforward.

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Ashara Dayne would also make sense, if Jon were born a year earlier

Since we don't know where Ashara during the war, and in fact GRRM specifically said she wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall, she could in theory have conceived Jon during the war, and hence there is no limitation pertaining to Jon being born a year earlier.

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

The Fisherman's Daughter- while she had the opportunity to meet with Ned, and her position as a seafarer makes it possible to travel to Dorne

Since we can't demonstrate Jon was born in Dorne, it doesn't much matter whether she could have gone there or not.

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

seeing as [Lyanna] was holed up with Rhaegar Targaryen during this time

How do you know?  

Since there is no reference in canon to either Lyanna's location at any time during the war, or Rhaegar's location before he "returned from the south" to King's Landing, there is no way to show Rhaegar and Lyanna were ever in the same location.   At best, we can imagine they were.

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18 minutes ago, JNR said:

Just a few notes...

Jon is usually perceived by RLJ supporters as having been born around the time of the Sack.  If so, this would mean he was conceived about three months into the war, which means if Jon were Brandon's he could have been conceived somewhat more than three months earlier than that.  

So, in theory, Jon could be Brandon's and yet only three months or so older than Robb.

No, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

So there's very little latitude in making Jon older. Maybe if Brandon had been allowed a conjugal visit the night before his "trial". Which I find seriously unlikely.

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38 minutes ago, JNR said:

Just a few notes...

Jon is usually perceived by RLJ supporters as having been born around the time of the Sack.  If so, this would mean he was conceived about three months into the war, which means if Jon were Brandon's he could have been conceived somewhat more than three months earlier than that.

Who perceives that, because for that to happen, Lyanna would have to birth Jon, wait there for a month or two for Ned, then die.

  • Ned was sent ahead to KL to take the throne for Robert, got there during the sack, then waited for Robert. This is how they had the argument about Rhaegar's children.
  • Then (in your version) he leaves immediately, stops the siege at Storm's End, then goes to find Lyanna.

By horse, that travel would take months, and Lyanna was dying after she had Jon (in this theory).HOW SWAY?!

Also, on the Brandon front:

  • It would have taken a month for Rickard to get to Brandon, conservatively. (week or more for the raven, several weeks for the journey from WF to KL)
  • It would have taken months for Ned to get to the North and gather the banners. (week or more for raven to reach Erie, weeks to reach the Sisters, then weeks to reach the North from the sisters. Then It would take near a month to assemble the banners in the North (the North is the Largest and least pop. dense kingdom)

By the time he gets to Riverrun, almost half a year would have passed (at least four months, conservatively)

56 minutes ago, JNR said:

The idea here seems to be that we know Jon was at the TOJ, but of course we don't know that.

 

No. The idea is that he was born in Dorne- which, no, we don't know, but we're pretty sure.

Edric Dayne seems to believe that Jon shared a wet-nurse with him, who was Wylla (Ned aslo thinks this is his mother). This means that Jon would have been at Starfall at or around the time that Ned dropped off Dawn. That was after the ToJ. This means one of three things:

  • Ned picked Jon up at Starfall (possible)
  • He picked Jon up between Starfall and ToJ (possible)
  • He picked Jon up Before the ToJ (fucking insane)
1 hour ago, JNR said:

It is possible for the KG to go places even if Rhaegar hasn't been there himself. 

Anything is possible. But three Kingsguard in the middle of nowhere, a prince that was missing for nearly a year, and a highborn lady being guarded by a Kingsguard that is supposed to guard that prince (technically) and his family?

1 hour ago, JNR said:

He does specifically say that she is:

So that's pretty straightforward.

I can allow you that. I was wrong.

But Ned also admits to treason later on the books, so we know he's a liar.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Since we don't know where Ashara during the war, and in fact GRRM specifically said she wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall, she could in theory have conceived Jon during the war, and hence there is no limitation pertaining to Jon being born a year earlier.

We don't know where she was, but we do know where she wasn't.

She wasn't with Brandon, who was imprisoned. She wasn't with Ned, who was fighting a war against her family, and no one mentions her as being with Ned during the War.

We also have source (though no one who was in her inner circle) who say she was with child and that the child died.

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5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So there's very little latitude in making Jon older. Maybe if Brandon had been allowed a conjugal visit the night before his "trial". Which I find seriously unlikely.

The other author said that if Brandon were Jon's father, Jon would have to be about a year older than Robb.  This is simply incorrect from a timeline standpoint, as is easily shown.

Imagine that Brandon, wolfblooded fan of girls that he was, had sex with a girl immediately prior to riding to the Red Keep.  Imagine that she conceived Jon on this occasion.  

Off Brandon goes.  Now a few weeks go by in which Rickard is summoned, he shows up, he and Brandon are killed, Aerys summons Ned and Robert, and instead Arryn calls his banners.  The war has begun.

About eight months later, Brandon's friend between the sheets gives birth.  This is about eight months into the war.  

Hence, Brandon could have been father to a son far less than a year earlier than Robb was born, and yet no conjugal visit was required.  Only about 3-4 months would separate Jon and Robb in this scenario.

Edited by JNR

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7 minutes ago, JNR said:

The other author said that if Brandon were Jon's father, Jon would have to be about a year older than Robb.  This is simply incorrect from a timeline standpoint, as is easily shown.

Imagine that Brandon, wolfblooded fan of girls that he was, had sex with a girl immediately prior to riding to the Red Keep.  Imagine that she conceived Jon on this occasion.  

Off Brandon goes.  Now a few weeks go by in which Rickard is summoned, he shows up, he and Brandon are killed, Aerys summons Ned and Robert, and instead Arryn calls his banners.  The war has begun.

About eight months later, Brandon's friend between the sheets gives birth.  This is about eight months into the war.  

Hence, Brandon could have been father to a son far less than a year earlier than Robb was born, and yet no conjugal visit was required.  Only about 3-4 months would separate Jon and Robb in this scenario.

He couldn't have performed such a feat immediately prior to riding to the Red Keep because she was missing.

Now if it happened at the Tournament of Harrenhall and she went missing about two weeks to a month later...

 

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4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Edric Dayne seems to believe that Jon shared a wet-nurse with him, who was Wylla (Ned aslo thinks this is his mother).

You're right about Edric.  

Ned says Wylla is Jon's mother, but what he thinks about Jon's mother is never revealed to us. 

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Ned also admits to treason later on the books, so we know he's a liar.

Yes, that's true.

4 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

We don't know where she was, but we do know where she wasn't.

She wasn't with Brandon, who was imprisoned. She wasn't with Ned, who was fighting a war against her family, and no one mentions her as being with Ned during the War.

If you mean "we can be sure Ashara never encountered Ned during the war," I don't think anyone can demonstrate that, actually.  

We just do not know where Ashara was, or what she was doing, during the war.  Not for one day, much like Lyanna.

I grant that it would have been an unusual situation for her to encounter Ned, though, since her brother Arthur certainly seems to have been a Targ loyalist, and beyond that, Dorne never betrayed the Targs during the war to our knowledge.

Edited by JNR

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5 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, it's possible to go back and forth between the Undying Lands and Middle Earth, and indeed, huge groups of Tolkien's elves actually did that in the past.  I don't think they died and were resurrected.  

When Frodo goes there, he doesn't really seem to die, any more than Galadriel, who goes with him, or Gandalf, or Bilbo.

You need to reread the Silmarillion hahah the elves can't come back any more than Frodo at that point. When the elves used to be able to, heaven was still apart of earth when it was flat before the breaking of Numenor. 

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4 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

He couldn't have performed such a feat immediately prior to riding to the Red Keep because she was missing.

Who is "she?"

I'm saying Brandon could have had sex with any random girl at that time.  That random girl could have had a baby eight months into the war.  

And that baby would then be separated in age, from Robb, by roughly 3-4 months... not a year.

It's still too early to be Jon, if you believe Jon was born at the time of the Sack, of course, but the point is that a son of Brandon would not have to be a year older than Robb.

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Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

You need to reread the Silmarillion hahah the elves can't come back any more than Frodo at that point.

Point me to the passage in LOTR in which Bilbo, Frodo, and Galadriel die... if you can.

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54 minutes ago, JNR said:

Point me to the passage in LOTR in which Bilbo, Frodo, and Galadriel die... if you can.

It's not out right stated lol thats the same stupid stuff people do on here lol wow. What part dont you understand about his mythos though? The world was flat and you used to be able to sail to Valinor or from Valinor. Then Numenor was destroyed cause man tried to sail there, even though they are forbidden cause our "heaven" is a different place unknown to the Valar. So the gods broke the world, made it round so man could sail west all they wanted and never find Valinor. Only return to the point of where they set out from. Following? So when the elves are leaving the world, they are leaving to never return. You can only return with special permission as Gandalf was given after his mortal form was killed (Gandalf is a god of the lesser order of the Maiar and cannot die as far as his spirit or what ever is concerned, no more than the elves.). Men and Hobbits are different and are not beings like the elves or Gandalf that wear flesh like clothes. There actually essence or soul burns through this body though especially with time, as in the case with Galadriel who reveals her true self a lil to Frodo. 

Frodo being allowed to go to the Heaven of the Elves is special, but it's still essentially his death. He can never return from there. Sam will never see him again, and can never see him again till Sam is given permission years later to go there to. Sam's kids will never get to go there though as they were not ring bearers. It is death essentially. A realm not connected to earth, the Undying lands. He's buggered mate, sorry. 

Here

https://i.imgur.com/Ji1kVz0.jpg

Lands before Numenor was broke. World is flat, undying lands apart of Arda.

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/OldTomBombadil/media/cGF0aDpUb2xraWVuIEFydC9iZWxlcmlhbmQyLmpwZw==/?ref=

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4185419745

And after the world was broken. Valinor is no longer apart of Arda that is now round. This is a huge part of a Silmarillion and the Numenor tale.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Frodo being allowed to go to the Heaven of the Elves is special, but it's still essentially his death. He can never return from there

Yes, we agree that since the shape of the world was altered, it has become a one-way trip.  So yes, Frodo's not coming back.  

However, a one-way trip is not quite the same idea as death.  (President Trump is likely to discover when he enters federal prison.)  And entering the Undying Lands doesn't require a hobbit to have died first.

Tolkien himself commented on this point in what has become known as his Letter #246:

Quote

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while

So we see his physical body did not die on entering the Undying Lands, but rather, was possibly healed eventually... and also that Tolkien thought of the Undying Lands as a form of purgatory for Frodo, as opposed to a final heaven for his soul.

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26 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yes, we agree that since the shape of the world was altered, it has become a one-way trip.  So yes, Frodo's not coming back.  

However, a one-way trip is not quite the same idea as death.  (President Trump is likely to discover when he enters federal prison.)  And entering the Undying Lands doesn't require a hobbit to have died first.

Tolkien himself commented on this point in what has become known as his Letter #246:

So we see his physical body did not die on entering the Undying Lands, but rather, was possibly healed eventually... and also that Tolkien thought of the Undying Lands as a form of purgatory for Frodo, as opposed to a final heaven for his soul.

Yea, He still isn't coming back to earth. All that letter did was refine what i said. Valinor is essentially the heavens of the elves. The letter just makes clear that Frodo went there for a time before passing on eventually to where ever his peoples "heaven" is. So Tolkien essentially says he makes a pit stop in Valinor to heal the taint of Sauron before going to his death. Going to his actually death/heaven is his only other destination from there. He's still never coming back and as good as dead to those still in the world. Except Sam who also is allowed to go there for a time. 

So yes we are both right i guess. Splitting red hairs here

 

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5 hours ago, JNR said:

The other author said that if Brandon were Jon's father, Jon would have to be about a year older than Robb.  This is simply incorrect from a timeline standpoint, as is easily shown.

Imagine that Brandon, wolfblooded fan of girls that he was, had sex with a girl immediately prior to riding to the Red Keep.  Imagine that she conceived Jon on this occasion.  

Off Brandon goes.  Now a few weeks go by in which Rickard is summoned, he shows up, he and Brandon are killed, Aerys summons Ned and Robert, and instead Arryn calls his banners.  The war has begun.

About eight months later, Brandon's friend between the sheets gives birth.  This is about eight months into the war.  

Hence, Brandon could have been father to a son far less than a year earlier than Robb was born, and yet no conjugal visit was required.  Only about 3-4 months would separate Jon and Robb in this scenario.

...and Jon is a year, or more, older than Dany, in direct contradiction to what the author has said. That's the problem.

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea, He still isn't coming back to earth. All that letter did was refine what i said. Valinor is essentially the heavens of the elves. The letter just makes clear that Frodo went there for a time before passing on eventually to where ever his peoples "heaven" is. So Tolkien essentially says he makes a pit stop in Valinor to heal the taint of Sauron before going to his death. Going to his actually death/heaven is his only other destination from there. He's still never coming back and as good as dead to those still in the world. Except Sam who also is allowed to go there for a time. 

So yes we are both right i guess. Splitting red hairs here

 

Cool, so I can get to elf heaven by taking a ship? Makes much more sense than the priests here on earth try to make me believe.

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11 hours ago, JNR said:

The other author said that if Brandon were Jon's father, Jon would have to be about a year older than Robb.  This is simply incorrect from a timeline standpoint, as is easily shown.

Imagine that Brandon, wolfblooded fan of girls that he was, had sex with a girl immediately prior to riding to the Red Keep.  Imagine that she conceived Jon on this occasion.  

Off Brandon goes.  Now a few weeks go by in which Rickard is summoned, he shows up, he and Brandon are killed, Aerys summons Ned and Robert, and instead Arryn calls his banners.  The war has begun.

About eight months later, Brandon's friend between the sheets gives birth.  This is about eight months into the war.  

Hence, Brandon could have been father to a son far less than a year earlier than Robb was born, and yet no conjugal visit was required.  Only about 3-4 months would separate Jon and Robb in this scenario.

By the quickest estimation, given the approximate timing of everything, Jon would be at least four to five months older than Robb if Brandon was the father. This is if he conceived a child in KL, immediately before going to face Rhaegar.

If he was conceived even earlier than that, Jon would be nearly a year older than Robb, if B+A=J. The same formula would have to be true for N+A=J, given that Ned would have gone back to the Eyrie after Harrenhal and Brandon would have gone to Riverrun.

In the books, Jon and Robb's births are mentioned in a way that would place them two (ish) months apart.

Also, IF another woman was the mother and Brandon was the father, how would Ned have found her? Why would he have believed her? How would she have found him, if she sought him out? How would baby Jon have gotten to Starfall?
I'm not saying Jon is DEFINITELY Lyanna and Rhaegar's child. I'm saying it's the best/most sensible option.

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1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

By the quickest estimation, given the approximate timing of everything, Jon would be at least four to five months older than Robb if Brandon was the father.

Roughly, yes.  I see you are now changing your earlier position, which was that Jon (if Brandon's son) would have to be a year older than Robb.

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Jon would be nearly a year older than Robb, if B+A=J

To show this, you would have to show that Ashara and Brandon were never together after Harrenhal.  Can you do that?

Here's a related point.  Selmy seems to think, in ADWD, that Ashara became pregnant long after Harrenhal:

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

When did that happen?  

Well, we know Ashara was still alive when Ned returned Dawn to Starfall.  So this would apparently mean that in Selmy's opinion, Ashara somehow became pregnant during the war... by some unspecified party, who may or may not be the same as the man he thinks "dishonored her at Harrenhal." 

Of course, Selmy could easily be wrong about this.  Just as he could easily be wrong in thinking that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna.

Edited by JNR

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