manchester_babe

Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

432 posts in this topic

 

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Roughly, yes.  I see you are now changing your earlier position, which was that Jon (if Brandon's son) would have to be a year older than Robb.

To show this, you would have to show that Ashara and Brandon were never together after Harrenhal.  Can you do that?

Here's a related point.  Selmy seems to think, in ADWD, that Ashara became pregnant long after Harrenhal:

When did that happen?  

Well, we know Ashara was still alive when Ned returned Dawn to Starfall.  So this would apparently mean that in Selmy's opinion, Ashara somehow became pregnant during the war... by some unspecified party, who may or may not be the same as the man he thinks "dishonored her at Harrenhal." 

Of course, Selmy could easily be wrong about this.  Just as he could easily be wrong in thinking that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna.

I think it is safe to assume that everything we have been told about when, where and how Ashara died is highly suspect if not outright wrong. The story changes depending upon who tells it. I'm willing to bet they are all wrong. But even if one of the versions is correct, then there is not yet enough evidence to show who is right. However, since Barristan only worshiped Ashara from afar, I bet he doesn't really know what happened.

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15 hours ago, bent branch said:

I think it is safe to assume that everything we have been told about when, where and how Ashara died is highly suspect if not outright wrong. The story changes depending upon who tells it. I'm willing to bet they are all wrong.

You could certainly be right.

I think the above passage may also work just fine if you scratch out "Ashara died," and write in "Lyanna disappeared and spent the next year."

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

You could certainly be right.

I think the above passage may also work just fine if you scratch out "Ashara died," and write in "Lyanna disappeared and spent the next year."

I agree.

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On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 8:31 AM, manchester_babe said:

Why do book readers h8 R+L+J?

Not all the book readers hate R+L=J , most just disagree with it . While others are tired of the perfect , favorite son marries the good lord's only daughter to product the PWWP .

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2 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Not all the book readers hate R+L=J , most just disagree with it . While others are tired of the perfect , favorite son marries the good lord's only daughter to product the PWWP .

Where did you get the idea that most disagree with it? I think that is just the crowd you run around with that disagrees with it. Seriously, most readers have no problem with R+L=J.

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On 2/24/2018 at 9:45 PM, bent branch said:

Where did you get the idea that most disagree with it? I think that is just the crowd you run around with that disagrees with it. Seriously, most readers have no problem with R+L=J.

Just some people hate it. I just saw a few people hate on it. 

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On 2/23/2018 at 0:07 PM, JNR said:

Roughly, yes.  I see you are now changing your earlier position, which was that Jon (if Brandon's son) would have to be a year older than Robb.

To show this, you would have to show that Ashara and Brandon were never together after Harrenhal.  Can you do that?

Here's a related point.  Selmy seems to think, in ADWD, that Ashara became pregnant long after Harrenhal:

When did that happen?  

Well, we know Ashara was still alive when Ned returned Dawn to Starfall.  So this would apparently mean that in Selmy's opinion, Ashara somehow became pregnant during the war... by some unspecified party, who may or may not be the same as the man he thinks "dishonored her at Harrenhal." 

Of course, Selmy could easily be wrong about this.  Just as he could easily be wrong in thinking that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna.

No, I'm not changing my position. I'm amending my time-frame, given the ridiculous notion that on the journey to retrieve his sister and challenge her kidnapper, Brandon stopped for a quickie with his one-time lover. Under those specific circumstances, the time-frame can/should be broadened to include his time in King's Landing.

But we're not talking about Ashara's child. We're talking about Jon, who- as I've said- is thought to be the son of Wylla, from what Ned Dayne told Arya, and- as you've said- is mentioned as Wylla's son from Ned Stark's own mouth.

On the subject of what Barristan Selmy is thinking, he does not use definitive measures of time, but rather the nondescript term "soon." This doesn't give us a definitive timeline between when she had her child and when she jumped; it only let us know that she was not around for much longer.

She could have had her stillbirth months before Ned arrived with Dawn.

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1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

She could have had her stillbirth months before Ned arrived with Dawn.

Exactly. From the perspective of an old man almost twenty years later, the term "soon" is a very broad one.

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3 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

No, I'm not changing my position. I'm amending my time-frame, given the ridiculous notion that on the journey to retrieve his sister and challenge her kidnapper, Brandon stopped for a quickie with his one-time lover. Under those specific circumstances, the time-frame can/should be broadened to include his time in King's Landing.

This still doesn't work, I'm afraid.

Brandon could have slept with a woman a week before his ride to King's Landing.  Or two weeks, for that matter.  Or three.  And he could have been sleeping with her for months or years at that point -- not necessarily only once.

The outcome would still be the same.  That woman could have given birth to his son roughly eight or nine months into the war.  

This, clearly, would be problematic for your stated position that any son of Brandon's would be nearly a year older than Robb.  3-4 months is simply ≠ nearly a year.

Which brings us to:

3 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

But we're not talking about Ashara's child. We're talking about Jon

If you can conclusively prove Ashara can't possibly be Jon's mother, please show us that proof.

As things stand now, it doesn't appear the canon states... or an SSM states... or that any fan knows... where Ashara was for a single day during the war -- just like Lyanna.   What we do have on that topic, per GRRM, is this:

Quote

I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume.

It seems that GRRM is leaving infinite possible options open as to what she did, with whom, where, and why... just as he is with Lyanna.

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20 hours ago, JNR said:

This still doesn't work, I'm afraid.

Brandon could have slept with a woman a week before his ride to King's Landing.  Or two weeks, for that matter.  Or three.  And he could have been sleeping with her for months or years at that point -- not necessarily only once.

The outcome would still be the same.  That woman could have given birth to his son roughly eight or nine months into the war.  

This, clearly, would be problematic for your stated position that any son of Brandon's would be nearly a year older than Robb.  3-4 months is simply ≠ nearly a year.

You're saying Brandon could have slept with a woman a week before he went to King's Landing, but you're missing several conditions that she would have to have met:

  • She would need to be low key enough that no one in the Seven Kingdoms knows who she is, and that she was having sex with Brandon.
  • She would need to be someone that could find Ned, or someone that Ned could find, without her being common knowledge.
  • She would need to have had sex with Brandon- who is never mentioned to have traveled that far south, especially during this time- but make it to Dorne. Where Jon was born (there is no mention of Ned having a baby until after he comes back from Dorne, even though Stannis meets Jon and would have met Ned on his way to the ToJ, which would be memorable if a man brought a baby through a war zone)
  • She cannot be Ashara Dayne's child (will get to this later)
20 hours ago, JNR said:

If you can conclusively prove Ashara can't possibly be Jon's mother, please show us that proof.

As things stand now, it doesn't appear the canon states... or an SSM states... or that any fan knows... where Ashara was for a single day during the war -- just like Lyanna.   What we do have on that topic, per GRRM, is this:

I can't conclusively prove that Ashara can't be Jon's mother, but there is enough evidence and perspective that says otherwise; I mean, you just used a quote from a Barristan chapter that says her child was a girl to bolster your argument that her child could have been Jon, due to the time of it's birth. There is also the fact that Edric is certain that Jon is not Ashara's, Ned says his mother is Wylla, and the dates don't match up, unless you use ridiculous stipulations.

 

20 hours ago, JNR said:

It seems that GRRM is leaving infinite possible options open as to what she did, with whom, where, and why... just as he is with Lyanna.

Because he doesn't want to definitively offer an answer to one of the greatest debates of his works, if not of all time (or at least the modern era).

This doesn't change what is the likeliest of events, based on the information offered.

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On 2/14/2018 at 10:57 PM, Euron Lannister said:

don't think so, Cersei an Jaime as Targaryens would be much more martinesque imo.

I have to disagree.

Tyrion being a Targaryen would be in keeping with the pattern up until now; motherless children/children whose mother's died to bring them into this world. He would also be in keeping with the tales of grotesque children being born from dragon's blood i.e. sickly, small children, deformed children like Maelys the Monstrous etc.

Jaime and Cersei have had too many children between them for none of them to have any Targaryen in them.

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On 2/14/2018 at 11:54 PM, Ygrain said:

Er... guys, and where is it stated that Ned had the baby with him the whole time? I'd really have a hard time believing that no-one would ever put two and two together and figure out RLJ if he did.

Well, it is stated by Edric Dayne that he and Jon Snow are milk brothers, which implies that Jon was in Starfall where- Edric grew up- at some point or another. Otherwise, why is he so certain of this, and how would he know about Jon.

On 2/14/2018 at 11:54 PM, Ygrain said:

The clever thing to do would be go to Starfall under the pretext of returning Dawn, send the baby North with Howland and switch the wetnurse a couple of times along the way. Meanwhile, return to KL with Lyanna's bones to report to Robert, pick up your army and return North, and either pick up Cat along the way or ravenmail her to go North.

When has Eddard Stark ever shown himself to be clever? (no shade intended. I love Ned Stark, but he's never been a bastion of intrigue and good decisions)

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On 2/15/2018 at 0:07 AM, Euron Lannister said:

Tyrion makes no sense in my eyes, he is nothing like aerys and almost exactly like tywin without the cruelty, and storywise it would be boring af.

Cersei and Jaime have many targaryen traids and as Tywin's favorite children, it would be a nice twist that they are not his children.

also Jaime had a dream of joanna saying tywin's children are neither a knight nor a queen, while cersei and jaime are exactly that, and at the time they were fathered joanna was around aerys, other than the time when tyrion was fathered.

You're mistaking nature for nurture. Of course Tyrion would be more like Tywin, because Tywin is the man that raised him. He would have been the model for him to mold himself after.

And how would that be boring?

The son of Aerys, who thought he was the son of Tywin, killed him and is intent on restoring the Targaryen dynasty for revenge against his "father." That's brilliant.

Also, Jaime's dreams are never stated as being prophetic. Mournful and guilt-trippy, but not prophetic. These are just his private thoughts. Also, Cersei isn't a queen, because Robert made her a queen, and without him or legit heirs (which Jaime know's they're not) she is just a lady. And Jaime embodies none of the principles of a knight: he breaks his oaths (having sex with his King's wife, killing his other king), he harms the innocent, oppresses the weak, murders and kills wantonly. He is not a knight in the sense pertaining to their vows, it's just a hollow title for him.

The dream is his thoughts of himself, and how he assumes his mother would react to what her children have become.

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The reason why I hate the theory is because what should have been an incredible plot twist has become the widely accepted, if not proven, fact, and I want to be surprised at something in these final 2 books, if we ever get them.

 

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19 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Well, it is stated by Edric Dayne that he and Jon Snow are milk brothers, which implies that Jon was in Starfall where- Edric grew up- at some point or another. Otherwise, why is he so certain of this, and how would he know about Jon.

My post was in response to people who seemed to be under an impression that Ned had Jon with him all the time while travelling to Starfall, to KL to report to Robert and back North. This I find highly improbable because that definitely should have made at least some people wonder if the child actually might be Lyannas.

I have no problem with Jon's presence at Starfall at some point, but I'm afraid it cannot be deduced from the term "milk brothers" because it only means that the two were nursed by the same woman, not necessarily at the same time or place. Wylla claiming to be Jon's mother would be perfectly sufficient, without Jon ever setting a foot (figuratively) at Starfall. - That said, the mere fact that Wylla claims to be Jon's mother indicates that he either was at Starfall, or was seen by someone from Starfall with Wylla, or else the lie probably wouldn't be necessary.

 

19 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

When has Eddard Stark ever shown himself to be clever? (no shade intended. I love Ned Stark, but he's never been a bastion of intrigue and good decisions)

He was an apt battle commander and a respected leader, so he had to be able to do some planning right. Not being able to play a game of thrones =/= being totally stupid.

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19 minutes ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Jaime's dreams are never stated as being prophetic

The dream he has on the weirwood stump might actually be something more than just a dream. But this is only a side note.

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1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

She would need to be low key enough that no one in the Seven Kingdoms knows who she is, and that she was having sex with Brandon

Do you mean Brandon would have had to keep it a secret?

If Brandon slept with someone while he was betrothed to Cat, I don't think it would surprise anyone or even be seen as newsworthy.  

Plenty of men in this patriarchal, sexist world sleep around... before or after marriage.   Even Cat thinks, about Ned, that it wouldn't have surprised her if he banged some woman during the war and sired a bastard -- what did surprise her was Ned bringing the bastard back to Winterfell and raising him personally.

1 hour ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

She would need to be someone that could find Ned, or someone that Ned could find, without her being common knowledge.

What has Ned got to do with this hypothetical woman?  

We're talking about whether Brandon could have sired a son who was born much closer in time to Robb than a year.  The answer is yes, he could have.  There's no way to rule it out.

2 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

She would need to have had sex with Brandon- who is never mentioned to have traveled that far south, especially during this time

Where is "that far south" in your mind?  

We know that Brandon was going to Riverrun to attend his own wedding at the exact time Lyanna (apparently) disappeared:

Quote

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do."

 

2 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

I can't conclusively prove that Ashara can't be Jon's mother

True.  Don't feel bad; no one else can either.  GRRM designed the puzzle of Jon's parentage to have many possible solutions.

2 hours ago, Jon_Stargaryen said:

Because he doesn't want to definitively offer an answer to one of the greatest debates of his works, if not of all time (or at least the modern era).

Also almost certainly true.  Hopefully we'll get that answer in TWOW, and hopefully TWOW will eventually be published.

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23 hours ago, JNR said:

If you can conclusively prove Ashara can't possibly be Jon's mother, please show us that proof.

No, it can't be proven. However if she was, there's no explaination for Ned's behavior that doesn't involve him being a selfish asshole, which I would find somewhat out of character.

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