Heresy 205 bats and little green men

[PrettyPig]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I guess there is the notion that the weirwoods are vampiric in nature and bats and wolves are their familiars.   

I think this may be very close to right, if not exactly right.   I haven't been able to dive into this nearly to the extent that I want, but the idea goes back to the origins of First Men in Essos, and whether or not there is a "strain" that is rooted in darkness/night/cold/black magic - a strain that is also somewhat connected to bats/dragons/winged creatures that live in caves.     The weirwoods and COTF may also be tied to that strain; conflict arose because somebody literally discovered fire.

I *suspect* that this will boil down to some kind of contention between/involving the former empires of Qarth and Asshai - two cities that have significance in the main series but that we know very little about.   (The World Book has bupkis on Qarth, which tells me GRRM is saving it for later.    Same with House Dayne, too.   My rule of thumb is that anything that is NOT outlined in TWOIAF is going to be important in the main books, and interconnected to boot.)    Haven't fleshed it out yet, but IMO we are going to find out that ice and fire are branches off the same tree, so to speak.   

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

IDK.  I don't think we're talking about gigantic dragons hanging from the roof of the cave.  Why are we getting the comparison between bats and dragons?  The story of Sansa, a winged wolf flying out of a tower and the crow telling Bran that there are more than one type of wing:
 

Why the bat imagery?  Is it just that there is a Whent in the Tully bloodline? Does this have something to do with Harren the Black or the black line with his brother the LC of the Night's Watch at the Night Fort?  What's the connection between a hundred pieces of dragonglass and a hundred towers at Harrenhal?  Was the Night's King a Stark or a Hoare?

I'm starting to think that the greenseer that controls the Black Gate comes from the black line of the iron born. That would explain the connection to the drowned god.

 

I think the bat imagery is intended to make us think of dragons. I also think connecting the Ironborn to both Harrenhal and the Wall is significant. It seems like in both instances the Ironborn were among the defeated.

When Harren built Harrenhal, his brother was LC on the Wall, yet the commander didn't march when Aegon burned his brother's family and castle, but I think we can be relatively certain that the Black Gate was already well in place. The Black Gate has been there since the Wall was built, and the fact that it opens upon hearing the words of the Nights Watch seems to confirm this theory.

The physical location and condition of the Iron Islands seems to geologically and visually confirm that they were cut off from the mainland by some natural disaster - perhaps even by the famed Hammer of Waters. The aftermath resulting in the waters of the Neck and the surrounding marshes. It seems to me that after the Hammer of Waters severed their connection, the Ironborn did what they needed to do to survive: they became raiders. What do you do next to a people who's livelihood is dependent upon water? You freeze them out.

After eradicating the Ironborn from the mainland with white walkers and ice magic, the remnants are rounded up and banned beyond the Wall, and many layers of woven magic spells to keep them contained, but those pesky wildlings are still raiders. Maybe they thought the stragglers on the Iron Islands were no longer a threat? That is until Harren built Harrenhal to mock the gods. If ice magic was unable to completely freeze them out, then the Children turned to fire magic to burn them out. Hence Aegon the Conqueror. He burned out Harren and unified the Seven Kingdoms into one, and kept everyone subdued under the threat of being burned to death by dragons.

Over time the dragons slowly died out - either by captivity or by poisoning, until the Targaryens weakened enough that the various old kingdoms saw their chances to rise up again, including the Ironborn.

Damphair has a terrifying memory of Euron and a squeaky hinge. We are told the Wall is a hinge. Hinges hold doors, and somehow a door was opened releasing magic into the world. It turned the north beyond the Wall upside down - Patchface tells us it's underwater. The Ironborn are the main characters connected to water and strength upon the seas. Euron has sent Victarion to intercept Dany so that the Children can't use her fire magic to be against them, but he doesn't seem too concerned about intercepting the ice magic. Why is that? Maybe it's because all that ice magic beyond the Wall is just Ironborn water magic in frozen form? The Drowned God is a frozen god, and those giant ice spiders that we've heard about are frozen krakens.

Edited to add: If this water magic is so powerful, the reason why Dorne was allowed to remain undefeated was because the "desert" of the Martells countered or tamed the "water" of the Rhoynar. 

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I think this may be very close to right, if not exactly right.   I haven't been able to dive into this nearly to the extent that I want, but the idea goes back to the origins of First Men in Essos, and whether or not there is a "strain" that is rooted in darkness/night/cold/black magic - a strain that is also somewhat connected to bats/dragons/winged creatures that live in caves.     The weirwoods and COTF may also be tied to that strain; conflict arose because somebody literally discovered fire.

I *suspect* that this will boil down to some kind of contention between/involving the former empires of Qarth and Asshai - two cities that have significance in the main series but that we know very little about.   (The World Book has bupkis on Qarth, which tells me GRRM is saving it for later.    Same with House Dayne, too.   My rule of thumb is that anything that is NOT outlined in TWOIAF is going to be important in the main books, and interconnected to boot.)    Haven't fleshed it out yet, but IMO we are going to find out that ice and fire are branches off the same tree, so to speak.   

I wonder if this goes back as far as the promethean tale of the grey king stealing fire.  The gigantic bats in the cave of the cotf and the stories of giant bats at Harrenhal seems like an extraneous detail but if there is some association between bats and the cotf; then it precedes the building of Harrenhal on top of what must have been a major woodland city of the cotf given the number or weirwoods that are said to have been cut down.  Perhaps even demons trees of the type we see at Whitetree.  

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sorry, i didn't realize I was confusing the conversation. 

The only thing i take from it now is that a winged wolf or a winged (hell)hound is not a winged mouse or a dragon or a wyvern, even if the wings are the same. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

I *suspect* that this will boil down to some kind of contention between/involving the former empires of Qarth and Asshai - two cities that have significance in the main series but that we know very little about

With Qarth at least there is a connection to the middle head of the god Trios (the Black Gate) at the House of Undying.  I have come to think that the Black Gate is the middle head; the head who's purpose is unknown.  If the Wall is a hinge to hang doors; then the door on the HoU is connected to the Wall.  It even has the appearance of a mouth:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

When they reached the door—a tall oval mouth, set in a wall fashioned in the likeness of a human face—the smallest dwarf Dany had ever seen was waiting on the threshold. He stood no higher than her knee, his faced pinched and pointed, snoutish, but he was dressed in delicate livery of purple and blue, and his tiny pink hands held a silver tray. Upon it rested a slender crystal glass filled with a thick blue liquid: shade of the evening, the wine of warlocks. "Take and drink," urged Pyat Pree.

It's not coincidence that the Black Gate is also a mouth in the likeness of a human face or that the Palace of Dust itself is serpentine shaped like part of the Wall.   Bran doesn't use the metaphysical powers of the gate until later when he appears to Ghost-Jon as Tree-Bran.  But Dany enters the metaphysical realm after taking shade of the evening and passing beyond the door.  There is both a physical and metaphysical element to both the Gate and the Wall.  Dany proceeds down a long hallway of doors.  Jon does the same in his dreams of 'Winterfell' but where is the hallway of doors at Winterfell?  Or is this really the Wall with it's underground wormways and hallway of doors and storage rooms?  The faded carpet a visual representation of the magics woven into the Wall.

It's also not a coincidence that Dany is tempted to exit through another oval door into a woodland:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

When she stopped, she found herself in yet another dank stone chamber . . . but this time the door opposite was round, shaped like an open mouth, and Pyat Pree stood outside in the grass beneath the trees. "Can it be that the Undying are done with you so soon?" he asked in disbelief when he saw her.

So it seems to me that the wizards of Qarth have found a way to use the power of the Wall and that this might be a two way connection.  Something is masking itself as Pyat Pree from beyond the Wall? 

The blue fire in the eyes of the wights also reminds me of Varys, story:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

 

It seems a stretch, but I wonder if the minions of the night can see through the eyes of the wights. 

I feel like I'm rambling, so I'm just going to stop.

 

 

    

[Melifeather]

It's easier to piece a puzzle together when you can look at the picture on the cover of the box. There are so many posters on the forums that are masters at dissecting and putting together some of the pieces, but I've always been more of a big picture person. The problem with big picture people though is that we have a harder time explaining how we see what we see, but I'm going to continue to describe the picture that I see on this box!

The broad strokes are a continual fight between nature and man copping nature. The Ironborn draw their strength from water and water magic, and used it enforce their will upon Westeros, but they weren't satisfied with copping or stealing magic from nature - they wanted to kill the competition. 

The bat symbolism connected to Harrenhal are in reference to where the Children of the Forest Whent went: the caves beyond the Wall. They were forced to flee. Now that's a question that has come up on the forums many times. Why did they flee if there was a Pact to protect them? They fled, because Harren the Black cut down every weirwood around for miles and dug up any greenseers they found. 

The list of natural disasters in Westeros are all attempts to defeat the Ironborn. Even the Iron Throne is in reference to their defeat. Iron is a metal known for use in warding. The Hammer of Waters was the first attempt to stop the Ironborn. If the Children tried to control the Ironborn by freezing them out as the second attempt, then it is true that they - in a sense - created them. So I'm thinking the out of wack seasons are the Children's fault, because they tried to use an extended winter to defeat water magic by freezing it. 

The Nights Watch was organized and able to defeat the Ironborn, because they could overtake them during daylight hours and confine them in prisons. Once the Wall was built they could put the Ironborn that would not kneel behind it, and with the Children's help they confined their water magic with woven spells. The Drowned God is a frozen god, but the wards that contained the magic are gone now. All that stands between Westeros and the frozen Drowned God is the Wall.

[LynnS]

59 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The only thing i take from it now is that a winged wolf or a winged (hell)hound is not a winged mouse or a dragon or a wyvern, even if the wings are the same. 

Yah sorry, IDK.  The only thing I can find on winged-wolf mythology is a Hungarian story about a winged wolf that breathes fire.  So if the 3EC tells Bran that not all wings have feathers and he wakes up with his skin stretched over bone; he's not a dragon or a bird, what is he?

[Black Crow]

A little kid who's been physically wasting away while in a coma

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 he's not a dragon or a bird, what is he?

a nice riverlander fishman ready to dive deep unterwater to hunt some fish. why ? 

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

A little kid who's been physically wasting away while in a coma

 

29 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

a nice riverlander fishman ready to dive deep unterwater to hunt some fish. why ? 

LOL! Now you're making fun of me.

[Brad Stark]

Hoping someone else would get back to Harren and his brother.  We all agree something is wrong with the timelines, and I think we've just hit a few more pieces that might make everything fit together.

Can you see Balon Greyjoy, Euron or Victarion wanting to become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch?  I can see any of them choosing not to aid their brother, for less than chivalrous reasons.  We believe Balon died at the hand of his brother, very similarly to how Harren's grandfather was suspected of killing his brother to rise to power.  Nothing changes with the Ironborn, these are not men who value honor or family.

But what makes no sense is his keeping to his vows instead of trying to father a son so his house didn't die out or retake control of the Ironborn, especially if he was sent to the Wall either as punishment or to get him out of the line of succession.  And he had 10,000 men, more than 10 times the current Night's watch, when we've been told the Watch's numbers have been dwindling for 10,000 years.  Are we supposed to believe for 9700 years their numbers slowly went down to 10,000 and then in 300 years they dropped to less than 1000?

Let me propose an alternative - like Harren, his brother was a conqueror and invaded to the Northwest while Harren invaded to the Southwest.  Both brothers were at war with a group of First Men allied with Greenseers and the Children, including the Night's Watch, in a conflict going back to when the Andal's first invaded.  Harren's brother killed the existing Night's watch, took over the position and rewrote history.

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The broad strokes are a continual fight between nature and man copping nature

 I think that this is exactly what it’s going to come down to being. Man trying to take nature and magnify it in ways beyond what it was meant to be in order to gain certain advantages. And not that the Ironborn aren’t also doing this, I’m just not so sure that they are the only ones to do it. Just look at the stories of the Rhoynar and the disastrous effects of their use of water magic. And honestly, I’m not so sure that the Neck and what we see there is actually connected to “water” magic per se. I see it more as the opposite. An overuse of “earth” magic. 

 

And before anyone argues that magic magic is magic and it’s all the same.... I also agree with that, and am not trying to say anything different. However, I do see different outcomes based upon whatever it is that the magic is attempting to work upon or use as its source. 

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Let me propose an alternative - like Harren, his brother was a conqueror and invaded to the Northwest while Harren invaded to the Southwest.  Both brothers were at war with a group of First Men allied with Greenseers and the Children, including the Night's Watch, in a conflict going back to when the Andal's first invaded.  Harren's brother killed the existing Night's watch, took over the position and rewrote history.

This is interesting.  I like it.

[Brad Stark]

My theory fits nicely with the story of Torrhen Stark.  Why didn't Torrhen have his half brother kill the dragons?  Did he think his brother couldn't do it?  Was he worried for his brother's safety?

Torrhen Stark realized he needed the dragons to stay alive and keep Harren's brother in check.  Otherwise the last of the weirwoods, the culture of the First Men, the House of Stark and their people all end up conquered and destroyed.  And was willing to give up his crown to form the alliance he needed.

 

[Brad Stark]

44 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

 I think that this is exactly what it’s going to come down to being. Man trying to take nature and magnify it in ways beyond what it was meant to be in order to gain certain advantages. And not that the Ironborn aren’t also doing this, I’m just not so sure that they are the only ones to do it. Just look at the stories of the Rhoynar and the disastrous effects of their use of water magic. And honestly, I’m not so sure that the Neck and what we see there is actually connected to “water” magic per se. I see it more as the opposite. An overuse of “earth” magic. 

 

And before anyone argues that magic magic is magic and it’s all the same.... I also agree with that, and am not trying to say anything different. However, I do see different outcomes based upon whatever it is that the magic is attempting to work upon or use as its source. 

Absolutely, the obvious examples are the Doom of Valyria and The Long Night.  My question would be whether the Children are/were misusing nature themselves, or whether they were allied with nature in its proper form.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's easier to piece a puzzle together when you can look at the picture on the cover of the box. There are so many posters on the forums that are masters at dissecting and putting together some of the pieces, but I've always been more of a big picture person. The problem with big picture people though is that we have a harder time explaining how we see what we see, but I'm going to continue to describe the picture that I see on this box!

The broad strokes are a continual fight between nature and man copping nature.

While I've come to a different conclusion as to why the big picture - broken seasons, Others, rising dead, disasters in the Sorrows, disasters in Valyria, 'storm gods' battering Storms End, etc. - is happening, I agree completely that these are not unrelated oddities in a world where magic happens to exist--these events (and especially the seasons, and those events occurring in Westeros) are not worldbuilding, they are plot, and can be viewed holistically.

In particular, I disagree with Melisandre's point of view that everything can be summed up as a push and pull between Ice and Fire; I don't think Planetos is facing a doom of Ice vs. Fire, I think it's facing a doom of Ice and Fire--'nature' itself is broken, and Planetos exists in a state of disequilibrium, which, among other things, allows for supernatural abuses of the forces of nature.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

 I think that this is exactly what it’s going to come down to being. Man trying to take nature and magnify it in ways beyond what it was meant to be in order to gain certain advantages. And not that the Ironborn aren’t also doing this, I’m just not so sure that they are the only ones to do it. Just look at the stories of the Rhoynar and the disastrous effects of their use of water magic. And honestly, I’m not so sure that the Neck and what we see there is actually connected to “water” magic per se. I see it more as the opposite. An overuse of “earth” magic. 

 

And before anyone argues that magic magic is magic and it’s all the same.... I also agree with that, and am not trying to say anything different. However, I do see different outcomes based upon whatever it is that the magic is attempting to work upon or use as its source. 

 

I agree that the Ironborn weren't the only ones copping nature and practicing water magic. The Rhoynar are also known for calling on Mother Rhoyne for help, and I'll need a refresher to remind myself how they were defeated regardless, but it is worth pointing out that the survivors were lead by Nymeria to Dorne and they intermarried with the Martells. I don't think it's too simplistic to say that the water was defeated by the desert.

 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Hoping someone else would get back to Harren and his brother.  We all agree something is wrong with the timelines, and I think we've just hit a few more pieces that might make everything fit together.

Can you see Balon Greyjoy, Euron or Victarion wanting to become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch?  I can see any of them choosing not to aid their brother, for less than chivalrous reasons.  We believe Balon died at the hand of his brother, very similarly to how Harren's grandfather was suspected of killing his brother to rise to power.  Nothing changes with the Ironborn, these are not men who value honor or family.

But what makes no sense is his keeping to his vows instead of trying to father a son so his house didn't die out or retake control of the Ironborn, especially if he was sent to the Wall either as punishment or to get him out of the line of succession.  And he had 10,000 men, more than 10 times the current Night's watch, when we've been told the Watch's numbers have been dwindling for 10,000 years.  Are we supposed to believe for 9700 years their numbers slowly went down to 10,000 and then in 300 years they dropped to less than 1000?

Let me propose an alternative - like Harren, his brother was a conqueror and invaded to the Northwest while Harren invaded to the Southwest.  Both brothers were at war with a group of First Men allied with Greenseers and the Children, including the Night's Watch, in a conflict going back to when the Andal's first invaded.  Harren's brother killed the existing Night's watch, took over the position and rewrote history.

 

If the Forsaken chapter is anything to go by, we will learn a lot more about the Ironborn and their (frozen) Drowned God.

I thought it interesting that we aren't given Harren the Black's brother's first name. Just that he was Lord Commander on the Wall. I wonder how long he served, and how many years passed before Good Queen Alysanne flew to the Wall? Was their assistance needed?

 

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

My theory fits nicely with the story of Torrhen Stark.  Why didn't Torrhen have his half brother kill the dragons?  Did he think his brother couldn't do it?  Was he worried for his brother's safety?

Torrhen Stark realized he needed the dragons to stay alive and keep Harren's brother in check.  Otherwise the last of the weirwoods, the culture of the First Men, the House of Stark and their people all end up conquered and destroyed.  And was willing to give up his crown to form the alliance he needed.

 

 

I think you're right that Torrhen either realized or learned some important information that led to his kneeling to Aegon. Of course the dragons were also a deterrent, but if his brother thought they could be killed with weirwood arrows, why didn't he allow it?

 

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

While I've come to a different conclusion as to why the big picture - broken seasons, Others, rising dead, disasters in the Sorrows, disasters in Valyria, 'storm gods' battering Storms End, etc. - is happening, I agree completely that these are not unrelated oddities in a world where magic happens to exist--these events (and especially the seasons, and those events occurring in Westeros) are not worldbuilding, they are plot, and can be viewed holistically.

In particular, I disagree with Melisandre's point of view that everything can be summed up as a push and pull between Ice and Fire; I don't think Planetos is facing a doom of Ice vs. Fire, I think it's facing a doom of Ice and Fire--'nature' itself is broken, and Planetos exists in a state of disequilibrium, which, among other things, allows for supernatural abuses of the forces of nature.

 

 -

Magic is the two-sided blade without a hilt. Mankind used and abused it, and the Children tried using it as a weapon against these men, but now somebody has to close this Pandora's box.

[Brad Stark]

26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I agree that the Ironborn weren't the only ones copping nature and practicing water magic. The Rhoynar are also known for calling on Mother Rhoyne for help, and I'll need a refresher to remind myself how they were defeated regardless, but it is worth pointing out that the survivors were lead by Nymeria to Dorne and they intermarried with the Martells. I don't think it's too simplistic to say that the water was defeated by the desert.

 

 

If the Forsaken chapter is anything to go by, we will learn a lot more about the Ironborn and their (frozen) Drowned God.

I thought it interesting that we aren't given Harren the Black's brother's first name. Just that he was Lord Commander on the Wall. I wonder how long he served, and how many years passed before Good Queen Alysanne flew to the Wall? Was their assistance needed?

 

 

I think you're right that Torrhen either realized or learned some important information that led to his kneeling to Aegon. Of course the dragons were also a deterrent, but if his brother thought they could be killed with weirwood arrows, why didn't he allow it?

 

 

 -

Magic is the two-sided blade without a hilt. Mankind used and abused it, and the Children tried using it as a weapon against these men, but now somebody has to close this Pandora's box.

My theory is like rock, paper sissors.  Sissors cut paper, paper covers rock, rock smashes scissors.  First Men kill dragons.  Dragons kill Andals.  Andals kill First Men.  Torrhen realized killing the dragons meant being killed by the Andals, and let the dragons live.

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

My theory is like rock, paper sissors.  Sissors cut paper, paper covers rock, rock smashes scissors.  First Men kill dragons.  Dragons kill Andals.  Andals kill First Men.  Torrhen realized killing the dragons meant being killed by the Andals, and let the dragons live.

Just to expand on that: rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock:  First men kill cotf, WW and wights kill FM and turn on cotf; dragons kill wights; Andals kill FM. Torrhen realized killing dragons meant being killed by Andals and bent the knee.

[PrettyPig]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

If the Wall is a hinge to hang doors; then the door on the HoU is connected to the Wall.  It even has the appearance of a mouth

 

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's not coincidence that the Black Gate is also a mouth in the likeness of a human face or that the Palace of Dust itself is serpentine shaped like part of the Wall.

Yes, absolutely.   And recall that the HotU is long, low, and windowless, and the face in the Black Gate is blind.    Also the ebony and weirwood doors, the glowing gate in the darkness of the well - black and white, darkness and moonlight.   The Others only come out at night when the sun is gone; the Undying are sealed away in a dark chamber, a "murky gloom" that Dany can barely see in.   The theme here is darkness, and living in a place where seeing with physical eyes is not necessary.   

I'm also reminded of Tobho Mott's establishment on the Street of Steel, and the black and white doors of the entrance.   Tobho Mott is Qohorik,  - Qohor is the "City of Sorcerers", and are the only smiths knowledgeable in working Valyrian steel...the secret said to be an infusion of blood.   So we have darkness balanced out by a "milky" light, black/white, sorcery, and various things that seem to feed on blood.   This is not coincidence.

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if this goes back as far as the promethean tale of the grey king stealing fire. 

Quite possibly.  I mean, the Grey King stole the dragon's fire and brought it to the earth, and then made a boat out the wood of a blood-drinking tree.    Also, as the Ghost of High Heart reminds us:

Quote

Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists."

Unless I'm misremembering, the Ironborn  - Harren and his predecessors - are First Men...and they spent countless centuries razing the green lands even before Harren moved inland, with fire and axes and who knows what else, lighting up the familiar darkness and cutting down the sacred trees.