Heresy 205 bats and little green men

[Black Crow]

Leading on from that but in a slightly different direction I'm still inclined to wonder about the Starks part in all of this. Jaqen Hgar's conversation with Arya makes it pretty clear that "the old gods" are a pretty broad church, while the "new" refers only to the Seven.

What intrigues me, as I said earlier, is that irrespective of the argument as to how fast and how far the surviving tree-huggers ran, we have the stories of the Starks killing the Warg King "and his inhuman allies" the tree-huggers, which doesn't sound very Children-friendly at all and I wonder whether Luwin's statement about the King in the North holding back the Andals shouldn't be treated literally, ie there's no reason to doubt it but it was a matter of politics rather than beliefs, ie; the old gods defended by the Starks weren't the trees, but their own, original old gods

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Luwin says the CotF fled north following the Andal invasion, which is just a matter of common sense after all, but he doesn't say north of the Wall, which is the usual position taken in Heresy.

It seems quite possible that for centuries or millennia, they did maintain some sort of presence in the wolfswood (which even now is the size of Great Britain)... before some point in time when (as Osha notes) they eventually lived solely beyond the Wall, as the giants almost certainly did long before them.

I agree with the former, in that "north of the Wall" is a leap, and I think that line is to be more naturally read as "fled north of the Neck." 

On the other hand, I also question Luwin's version of history; to repeat an example from prior threads, there's a subtle contradiction between Luwin's "four thousands years of friendship" that was begun by the Pact, and Old Nan's tale of the Long Night, which suggests the Last Hero had to search for years to find the CotF in their "secret cities."

That the CotF might not wish to be easily found, even during the Pact, is understandable--nonetheless, the tale as told does not present a picture of regular contact, nor does it suggest that alliance (or friendship) were a given during the Long Night, that the CotF did not react to the LN's descent by seeking out an alliance with men, did not actively aid them with their magic at the outset.

Furthermore, while there appears to be reports in the NW annals of occasional interaction and trade with giants and CotF at the Wall (and Osha has 'heard of' the CotF), similar tales of the Wolfswood have not been presented to the reader...which doesn't necessarily mean that post-Andal written accounts of interactions between the Starks and the CotF of the Wolfswood don't exist, but their absence in the narrative may be noteworthy.

While none of these observations are necessarily damning, I do think that relations between the FM and CotF were rockier than Luwin believes, and that many CotF lands were depopulated before the Andals showed up--not because they were being actively slaughtered by the FM post-Pact, but because they increasingly consolidated themselves into fewer and fewer 'cities' as their numbers naturally declined.

Put more succinctly, I suspect that their war with the FM was far worse than is immediately apparent, and that they were already a doomed people (due to their fertility) before the Andals showed up; even with the peace of the Pact, they never really recovered.

[Matthew.]

On 2/20/2018 at 0:21 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

Honestly, out of that list, the main thing that I might be skeptical about is any involvement on Mance’s part. I just don’t remember reading anything that would make me think that. (Having said that, I’m also woefully aware that it’s been over two years since I’ve done a complete reread of the series.) 

I admit, my suspicions of Mance are strictly personal crackpot. In particular, I suspect that Mance was interested in the Horn of Winter before the Others' return, and that he had originally intended to find it and destroy the Wall (and that he even used this as his 'pitch' to his earliest followers), and that it was only after the return of the Others that he wanted it as leverage for passage through the Wall, rather than as a tool to destroy the Wall.

Incidentally, I think he's still looking for the Horn, and that he intends to do some poking around in the Winterfell crypts.
 

On 2/20/2018 at 0:21 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

And Howland... He’s more conspicuous for his absence than for anything else. I can’t imag that you spend a year on a magical island and walk away without being changed somehow, at the very least learning a few new tricks. He was the guy that was there with Ned and Lyanna in the space of Ned’s missing memories. 

I agree, and I don't think GRRM is holding him back just so he can show up at the last minute to give us the results of Jon's DNA test.

IMO, because of his winter spent with the Green Men, he knows important things about all of the magical chaos that is unfolding. And, as a bit more personal crackpot, I don't think the Green Men are just regular people wearing green outfits and headdresses, I think they're something a little more unnatural; thus, if he has formally joined their ranks within recent years - perhaps after sending Jojen and Meera to WF - then it may be that his present appearance would be quite startling.

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Aux contraire, he said the Pact held until the Andals came along

"So long as the Kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and  the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other people crossed the Narrow Sea.

"The Andals were the first... The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north- 

At this point Summer starts howling because the raven is coming, so we don't know for certain whether they fled straight beyond the Wall as Osha implies or stopped for tea and blinis on the way, but there's absolutely  no doubt that they fled long before Harren turned up.

I stand corrected. 

Your other comment about the old gods of the First Men...I thought they adopted the old gods of the Children?

I still remain suspicious of Harren the Black and the Ironborn. There's more to this story than we've been provided. If the Andals are to blame for cutting down the weirwoods then there shouldn't have been "forests" of weirwoods for Harren to cut down for his rafters and beams.

[Brad Stark]

Do not believe because a character said something in canon, that makes what they said canon.  GRRM's characters are capable of deliberately lying, being lied to, or being wrong.  Especially regarding history, I am certain we will see this somewhere, even if I am wrong about where. 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Your other comment about the old gods of the First Men...I thought they adopted the old gods of the Children?

 

That's what Luwin says, that in time they adopted the gods of the wood and put aside the gods they had come over with, or words to that effect.

I think, however, that in the light of events that might need qualifying, ie; the First Men did take up the gods of the wood, but then some revolted; overthrowing the Nights King and joining with the Andals in rejecting the blood sacrifices and cruelty - while others, such as the Boltons didn't.

There's also that fearfully ambiguous reference by the Halfhand to the old gods of the Starks

[wolfmaid7]

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's what Luwin says, that in time they adopted the gods of the wood and put aside the gods they had come over with, or words to that effect.

I think, however, that in the light of events that might need qualifying, ie; the First Men did take up the gods of the wood, but then some revolted; overthrowing the Nights King and joining with the Andals in rejecting the blood sacrifices and cruelty - while others, such as the Boltons didn't.

There's also that fearfully ambiguous reference by the Halfhand to the old gods of the Starks

Have we ever had a discussion about who the old gods of the FM were?

 

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

we have the stories of the Starks killing the Warg King "and his inhuman allies" the tree-huggers, which doesn't sound very Children-friendly at all

That's true, but we don't have that content in canon.  

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I think that line is to be more naturally read as "fled north of the Neck." 

Or just "north of the Andals who were killing them."  

The Neck would actually seem like a haven, given how difficult it was to invade and the fact that the crannogmen were there (who supposedly "grew close" to the CotF thousands of years before).

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

there's a subtle contradiction between Luwin's "four thousands years of friendship" that was begun by the Pact, and Old Nan's tale of the Long Night, which suggests the Last Hero had to search for years to find the CotF in their "secret cities."

If you assume the CotF and First Men were in constant communication, and that stopped when the Long Night hit, and above all, that Old Nan is accurate about the "years" part.  

She says various things that don't seem accurate at all.  For instance, that giants were basically just huge men; we know they're a fundamentally different species who don't resemble men.  She says they had gigantic swords, but it seems instead that they never learned to work metal at all, and at most, used tree limbs as clubs, which is still the case.

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM's characters are capable of deliberately lying, being lied to, or being wrong.  Especially regarding history, I am certain we will see this somewhere, even if I am wrong about where.

Indeed, we already have seen it -- numerous times.  See above for Old Nan's failed comprehension of historical giants.

If you took a poll of Westeros, virtually everybody would say with complete confidence that the sun travels around the world.  After all, they've seen it happen every day of their lives.  They would all be wrong.

In GRRM's fiction as in real life, people are constantly leaping to poor conclusions based on inadequate information, no information, or wrong assumptions.  

If I wrote out a list of all of Ned's failed ideas, for instance, it would be lengthy, and he was only in one book!  The last handful of his bogus notions actually got him killed, and ultimately led to a horrific outcome for House Stark.

[JNR]

11 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Have we ever had a discussion about who the old gods of the FM were?

Yes -- we thought perhaps the dualistic religions associated with the Sisters and the legend of Durran and the Ironborn might have been relevant.  Two gods involving storm and/or sea and/or sky seems to be the pattern.

[Brad Stark]

Storm, sea, sky - gods associated with nature.  This could be a tie somehow to the Children, or just GRRM recognizin hiw often early gods are associated with natural forces.

[Melifeather]

If we are to believe that "the Pact held through the Long Night" is a truthful statement, then it wasn't the Children that created the white walkers. Neither was their absence a passive indication that they wanted to harm the First Men. If my theory that the Ironborn are the Others and can work their water magic even during freezing winter temperatures is true, then it makes sense that the Children remained huddled in their secret cities. They were under attack just as much as the First Men were, and that is why they joined forces to defeat the Others. 

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

If you assume the CotF and First Men were in constant communication, and that stopped when the Long Night hit, and above all, that Old Nan is accurate about the "years" part.  

I'm not assuming she's accurate, I am observing that we are not given a consistent picture of the Age of Heroes, and I don't find Old Nan's tale to quite align with Luwin's more positive "four thousand years of friendship."

I am not, for that matter, assuming that friendship means constant communication, but Old Nan's version of the tale portrays something beyond just irregular contact. From Bran's POV, we can determine that the CotF could have communicated certain things to the FM without putting themselves personally in harm's way, by skinchanging ravens.

We might also speculate that any greenseers active at the time could watch the unfolding of the Others' advance through the eyes of the weirwood, possibly well before men were aware of what has happening, and that in addition to sending conventional ravens they might have also sent dream visions (though this latter is more speculative).

In any case, the truth of Old Nan's tale might be suspect, but the meaning of the Last Hero spending years searching for the CotF is crystal clear; in history as Old Nan has been told it (and as she tells others), the CotF did not leap to the defense of men, they did not use their ravens to assemble men in their (warded?) caves, they did not actively seek alliance or a united front--it had to be sought. It may even be that they did not do the bare minimum of sending men ravens, and warning them to prepare.

I don't believe that translates into overt hostility, but it also seems as though, had the LH not sought them out, the CotF might have huddled in their caves and left the FM to die...according to Old Nan.

_____________

If that tale were the only oddity regarding human-FM relations, it would be one thing, but I personally have many questions: How long after the Hammer of the Waters was the Pact formed?

Was the flooding of the Neck what prompted humans to come to the negotiating table? If so, after going to all of the trouble of dividing Westeros in two, were the humans trusted to pass the Neck and settle the north? After all, the Starks, the Boltons, the Thenns, the people of the Frozen Shore, and so forth have all been up there for a long time; if House Dustin's lore is to be believed, their ancestor crossed into Westeros on the Arm of Dorne and was buried in the North.

What of ringforts like the Fist of the First Men? It is in the midst of the Haunted Forest - CotF lands under the Pact - so when was it built? Was it built in violation of the Pact? Was it built before the Pact?

In suggesting that Winterfell's godswood was cultivated 10,000 years ago (or so Catelyn believes), is it implicit that a new one needed to be cultivated, that those groves that had formerly stood in the north were destroyed?

To get to the point, while it is possible that the ancestors of all of the current northerners were, like the crannogmen, welcomed allies of the CotF (perhaps even before the Pact), there exists alternatives. For one, even with the Pact in place, it may be that the FM's land theft continued, that the Pact did not hold.

Alternately, the Hammer of the Waters failed, and the FM made it as far as the Haunted Forest in their pogrom before they finally agreed to the Pact, which would itself raise two more questions: How few CotF were left by the time of the Pact, and if the Hammer of the Waters wasn't enough to convince men to make peace...what was?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

What of ringforts like the Fist of the First Men? It is in the midst of the Haunted Forest - CotF lands under the Pact - so when was it built? Was it built in violation of the Pact? Was it built before the Pact?

In suggesting that Winterfell's godswood was cultivated 10,000 years ago (or so Catelyn believes), is it implicit that a new one needed to be cultivated, that those groves that had formerly stood in the north were destroyed?

To get to the point, while it is possible that the ancestors of all of the current northerners were, like the crannogmen, welcomed allies of the CotF (perhaps even before the Pact), there exists alternatives. For one, even with the Pact in place, it may be that the FM's land theft continued, that the Pact did not hold.

Alternately, the Hammer of the Waters failed, and the FM made it as far as the Haunted Forest in their pogrom before they finally agreed to the Pact, which would itself raise two more questions: How few CotF were left by the time of the Pact, and if the Hammer of the Waters wasn't enough to convince men to make peace...what was?

The impression I get is that Winterfell was built around an existing tree rather than first building the place and then planting a sapling in the middle of it - they tried that with the eyrie of course, but its a bit unique - and it failed.

 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If we are to believe that "the Pact held through the Long Night" is a truthful statement, then it wasn't the Children that created the white walkers. Neither was their absence a passive indication that they wanted to harm the First Men. If my theory that the Ironborn are the Others and can work their water magic even during freezing winter temperatures is true, then it makes sense that the Children remained huddled in their secret cities. They were under attack just as much as the First Men were, and that is why they joined forces to defeat the Others. 

I'd disagree, but as JNR noted earlier we also need to consider the nature of friendship. So far as the Pact is concerned it divided up the land. We get this bit, you get that bit and so long as nobody crosses the line we're friendly; cross it and its red war. 

Luwin says that in time the First Men took up the gods of the wood. Was that a gradual process or was it the price for intervention - a price which men eventually revolted against?

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd disagree, but as JNR noted earlier we also need to consider the nature of friendship. So far as the Pact is concerned it divided up the land. We get this bit, you get that bit and so long as nobody crosses the line we're friendly; cross it and its red war. 

Luwin says that in time the First Men took up the gods of the wood. Was that a gradual process or was it the price for intervention - a price which men eventually revolted against?

I understand your position, because it's one I also tended to think made the most sense, but there were some explanations that I found unsatisfying like the passivity of the Children. My opinion has begun to change since the discussion about Harren the Black and Harrenhal. A different picture is emerging and it ties in to the mirrored inversion theory.

It makes sense to me that the Wall is like a giant mirror and it's reflection is the long destroyed Wall that once stood along the Trident. @The Fattest Leech introduced me to GRRM's repeated use of mirrors in some of his other books, so many (she says) that she cannot quote them all. "Good horror stories make us look at our reflections in dark distorting mirrors, where we glimpse things that disturb us, things that we did not really want to look at." and "The mirror, reversing everything, just made it worse."

Recall that when GRRM was writing to his editor he referred to the Others as the Neverborn. Is it any coincidence then that ASOIAF has the Ironborn? Iron is a known substance used in wards, and the reason why these people are called Ironborn is because the Children tried to keep them out of Westeros to keep the peace, which is what wards are all about. 

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The impression I get is that Winterfell was built around an existing tree rather than first building the place and then planting a sapling in the middle of it - they tried that with the eyrie of course, but its a bit unique - and it failed.

 

The impression I got is Winterfell was the last refuge for First Men during the Long Night,  and the site was picked because natural hot springs create warmth.  Afterwards,  the Starks stayed because of their connection to The Long Night, and the town grew around them.  The 10,000 years is roughly in line with this.

[wolfmaid7]

15 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes -- we thought perhaps the dualistic religions associated with the Sisters and the legend of Durran and the Ironborn might have been relevant.  Two gods involving storm and/or sea and/or sky seems to be the pattern.

 I thought this might have been the case but wasn't sure.So Storm and Sea may have been the original OGs.

So the ravens being agents of the Storm god has me rethinking the 3er a bit.

I longed believed that the 3er wasn't Bloodraven and that he was of separate agency. 

I even think that the blue eyed lot (their green seer) could be cast under that umbrella to.When they come they usually utilize snowstorms the wind etc.

[Brad Stark]

15 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 I thought this might have been the case but wasn't sure.So Storm and Sea may have been the original OGs.

So the ravens being agents of the Storm god has me rethinking the 3er a bit.

I longed believed that the 3er wasn't Bloodraven and that he was of separate agency. 

I even think that the blue eyed lot (their green seer) could be cast under that umbrella to.When they come they usually utilize snowstorms the wind etc.

Ravens connection to the storm god is another hint of a connection to the Children. 

My theory is Bran himself,  in the future,  is the 3 eyed raven.

[Melifeather]

54 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 I thought this might have been the case but wasn't sure.So Storm and Sea may have been the original OGs.

So the ravens being agents of the Storm god has me rethinking the 3er a bit.

I longed believed that the 3er wasn't Bloodraven and that he was of separate agency. 

I even think that the blue eyed lot (their green seer) could be cast under that umbrella to.When they come they usually utilize snowstorms the wind etc.

Euron Greyjoy said, "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last." He is also nicknamed the Crow's Eye. This supports what I have suspected that the Ironborn are the Others.

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The impression I get is that Winterfell was built around an existing tree rather than first building the place and then planting a sapling in the middle of it

Yes, when Catelyn says the godswood had gone "untouched" as the castle grow around it for 10K years, I think she means the godswood predates the castle, including the heart tree.  

If so, the heart tree is at least 10K years old but could be much older yet.  

It's suggestive perhaps that as far back in time as Bran goes in his weirwood visions... as proven by the many generations of non-weirwood trees he sees appear and disappear... his POV from the weirwood never gets close to the ground (though it does fall somewhat).

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Recall that when GRRM was writing to his editor he referred to the Others as the Neverborn.

Well, the actual quote is:

Quote

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

So the Neverborn were imagined as a third class of threat.  They were conceived as being raised by the Popsicles just like the wights, and they simply do not appear in canon (so far).

I would guess the Neverborn were eliminated from the story because someone pointed out to GRRM that at that time, the #1 fantasy series -- Wheel of Time -- already had supernatural villains called the Neverborn.  This meant GRRM appeared to be yoinking the idea and the name straight from another writer, which couldn't have pleased him much.