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Heresy 205 bats and little green men


Black Crow

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9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The impression I get is that Winterfell was built around an existing tree rather than first building the place and then planting a sapling in the middle of it - they tried that with the eyrie of course, but its a bit unique - and it failed.

Ah, fair enough, as I did interpret the heart tree as planted by men, but allow me to elaborate on my thinking here--even if a heart tree is already present, what are the implications of men setting up shop that far north, at least 10,000 years ago*, adjacent to the Wolfswood?

Had the deep forests already been cut that far when the Pact was established?

Is the Wolfswood, in its present state, exactly as far as it had always extended, and there was a godswood just sitting there on the eastern edge, unoccupied after the Pact? 

If the grove is indeed far older than 10,000 years, does it sit atop a hollow hill, its former occupants fled or slaughtered?

Did the CotF allow Winterfell to be established because they lacked the population to maintain the grove?

As the latter question suggests, I am not attempting to dismiss the idea of friendship; it may be that men were welcomed into the north, into places like Whitetree, that they were granted passage through the Haunted forest and beyond its boundaries after the Pact. This is a reasonable interpretation, especially if the end goal of the CotF was to restore many sacred groves.

Nonetheless, it's not the only interpretation, and I am keeping in mind the other potential implications of things like Winterfell, the Free Folk, the Fist, etc.: That the Hammer failed and the FM slashed and burned their way around the Wolfswood and toward the Haunted Forest, and that we are missing (or misunderstanding, as your interpretation of the LH crying pax postulates) the decisive moment that lead to the Pact. It may also be that the Pact failed long before the Andals showed up.
 

30 minutes ago, JNR said:

So the Neverborn were imagined as a third class of threat.  They were conceived as being raised by the Popsicles just like the wights, and they simply do not appear in canon (so far).

Feather might also be referring to the fact that "neverborn" was used as a byword for the Others in advance reader copies and early blurbs for aGoT, with the occasional vestige of that early usage still to be found here and there:
https://adams.marmot.org/Record/.b33193010

Quote

The kingdom of the royal Stark family faces its ultimate challenge in the onset of a generation-long winter, the poisonous plots of the rival Lannisters, the emergence of the Neverborn demons, and the arrival of barbarian hordes.

______________

*A complete tangent, but speaking of 10,000 years ago, I was surprised to see in asearchoficeandfire that that is how far back Gerold Dayne claims his lineage stretches (the context being that House Dayne has done notable things besides producing Arthur); I knew House Dayne was old, but I had forgotten that they claimed to be that old...leaving me to wonder, once again, whether their violet eyes are important.

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31 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yes, when Catelyn says the godswood had gone "untouched" as the castle grow around it for 10K years, I think she means the godswood predates the castle, including the heart tree.  

If so, the heart tree is at least 10K years old but could be much older yet.  

It's suggestive perhaps that as far back in time as Bran goes in his weirwood visions... as proven by the many generations of non-weirwood trees he sees appear and disappear... his POV from the weirwood never gets close to the ground (though it does fall somewhat).

Well, the actual quote is:

So the Neverborn were imagined as a third class of threat.  They were conceived as being raised by the Popsicles just like the wights, and they simply do not appear in canon (so far).

I would guess the Neverborn were eliminated from the story because someone pointed out to GRRM that at that time, the #1 fantasy series -- Wheel of Time -- already had supernatural villains called the Neverborn.  This meant GRRM appeared to be yoinking the idea and the name straight from another writer, which couldn't have pleased him much.

This doesn't mean that the neverborn idea never made it into ASOIAF. You're just not recognizing them, because you are assuming they would be inhuman like in the Wheel of Time books, but wouldn't it be confusing to have two inhuman life forms both coming out of the north? 

GRRM is demonstrating what happens, not just when magic is abused, but mainly what humans do when they have access to that kind of power. He's reworked the neverborn idea and substituted the Ironborn whose name comes from breaking free of the wards placed upon them.

When winter was used against the Ironborn to freeze their ships at sea, they learned to work their water magic even though it was now frozen. The ice of the Wall is holding all that water magic frozen and its been sealed and warded with spells, but the ward is now open, water magic has been released, and winter is coming. The Ironborn will ride the winds of winter to overtake Westeros. Euron says he is the storm - the first and the last. 

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28 minutes ago, Matthew. said:
10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The impression I get is that Winterfell was built around an existing tree rather than first building the place and then planting a sapling in the middle of it - they tried that with the eyrie of course, but its a bit unique - and it failed.

Ah, fair enough, as I did interpret the heart tree as planted by men, but allow me to elaborate on my thinking here--even if a heart tree is already present, what are the implications of men setting up shop that far north, at least 10,000 years ago*, adjacent to the Wolfswood?

Had the deep forests already been cut that far when the Pact was established?

Is the Wolfswood, in its present state, exactly as far as it had always extended, and there was a godswood just sitting there on the eastern edge, unoccupied after the Pact? 

If the grove is indeed far older than 10,000 years, does it sit atop a hollow hill, its former occupants fled or slaughtered?

Did the CotF allow Winterfell to be established because they lacked the population to maintain the grove?

As the latter question suggests, I am not attempting to dismiss the idea of friendship; it may be that men were welcomed into the north, into places like Whitetree, that they were granted passage through the Haunted forest and beyond its boundaries after the Pact. This is a reasonable interpretation, especially if the end goal of the CotF was to restore many sacred groves.

Nonetheless, it's not the only interpretation, and I am keeping in mind the other potential implications of things like Winterfell, the Free Folk, the Fist, etc.: That the Hammer failed and the FM slashed and burned their way around the Wolfswood and toward the Haunted Forest, and that we are missing (or misunderstanding, as your interpretation of the LH crying pax postulates) the decisive moment that lead to the Pact. It may also be that the Pact failed long before the Andals showed up.
 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

So the Neverborn were imagined as a third class of threat.  They were conceived as being raised by the Popsicles just like the wights, and they simply do not appear in canon (so far).

Feather might also be referring to the fact that "neverborn" was used as a byword for the Others in advance reader copies and early blurbs for aGoT, with the occasional vestige of that early usage still to be found here and there:
https://adams.marmot.org/Record/.b33193010

Quote

The kingdom of the royal Stark family faces its ultimate challenge in the onset of a generation-long winter, the poisonous plots of the rival Lannisters, the emergence of the Neverborn demons, and the arrival of barbarian hordes.

Hey! Thanks for the link!

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12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

This doesn't mean that the neverborn idea never made it into ASOIAF. You're just not recognizing them, because you are assuming they would be inhuman like in the Wheel of Time books, but wouldn't it be confusing to have two inhuman life forms both coming out of the north?

Well, it's hard to say how confusing GRRM's version would be.  It wasn't confusing when Robert Jordan did it in Wheel of Time.

What I can say is that in GRRM's letter to his agent, the Others were said to have raised the neverborn and the wights.  So we know that in GRRM's mind at the time, the Others and the neverborn weren't the same thing.

Also, of course, the word "neverborn" is never born in ASOIAF.

However (as Heresy has objected to so many times) we've only had two canonical scenes with the Popsicles.  In the rest of ASOIAF... assuming any more will be published... the Popsicles are bound to get far more attention, so maybe GRRM will do some version of neverborn there.

For instance, if the Popsicles can generate -- raise -- ice spiders, those ice spiders were obviously never born... unlike the wights, which originally were born.  And we've had multiple hints in canon that ice spiders are coming.

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37 minutes ago, JNR said:

For instance, if the Popsicles can generate -- raise -- ice spiders, those ice spiders were obviously never born... unlike the wights, which originally were born.  And we've had multiple hints in canon that ice spiders are coming.

I don't know. I always run around with the idea that AA is reborn, not revived. If that were true somebody gets reborn. But I am still sceptical and and this includes created "golems" or gargoyles as neverborn. 

edit:

When it comes to Winterfell I always get the impression it is a tomb. The inner wall of Winterfell is made out of granite. Like some ancient pyramids and it certainly fits the theme. And like an ancient pharao, all Stark rulers (ruling in his name) are buried with him. So my interpretation would be Winterfell is literally the tomb of the first king of winter (until he gets reborn, that is even more speculation). 

 

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34 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, it's hard to say how confusing GRRM's version would be.  It wasn't confusing when Robert Jordan did it in Wheel of Time.

What I can say is that in GRRM's letter to his agent, the Others were said to have raised the neverborn and the wights.  So we know that in GRRM's mind at the time, the Others and the neverborn weren't the same thing.

Also, of course, the word "neverborn" is never born in ASOIAF.

However (as Heresy has objected to so many times) we've only had two canonical scenes with the Popsicles.  In the rest of ASOIAF... assuming any more will be published... the Popsicles are bound to get far more attention, so maybe GRRM will do some version of neverborn there.

For instance, if the Popsicles can generate -- raise -- ice spiders, those ice spiders were obviously never born... unlike the wights, which originally were born.  And we've had multiple hints in canon that ice spiders are coming.

It's really not that different. Just change out "Others" for Ironborn and "never born" for white walkers. 

The sigil of the Greyjoys is the kraken, and I can easily see how a frozen kraken could look like an ice spider.

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17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's really not that different. Just change out "Others" for Ironborn and "never born" for white walkers. 

The sigil of the Greyjoys is the kraken, and I can easily see how a frozen kraken could look like an ice spider.

Being one for the simple life I've simply interpreted it as the Others being the tree huggers [they are after all referred to as inhuman] and the neverborn as the walkers. GRRM did after all first characterise them as a "different form of life" and then later refer to Ser Puddles being held together by magic - so no, he was never born

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14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Being one for the simple life I've simply interpreted it as the Others being the tree huggers [they are after all referred to as inhuman] and the neverborn as the walkers. GRRM did after all first characterise them as a "different form of life" and then later refer to Ser Puddles being held together by magic - so no, he was never born

I am not disagreeing with you that the neverborn are the white walkers, but I disagree that the Children are the Others, I think the Ironborn are the Others.

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's really not that different. Just change out "Others" for Ironborn and "never born" for white walkers. 

The problem is that GRRM seems to make it pretty simple:

Quote

half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn

If the Others raise the neverborn, the Others can't be the neverborn... just as the Others cannot be the wights (and aren't).  

As for the Ironborn being the neverborn, that seems questionable since the Others don't seem to have raised the Ironborn in any sense in canon. 

There are also the Stoneborn on Skagos, of course... but we know very little about them.  Since Davos is apparently going to Skagos, maybe we'll learn more.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Being one for the simple life I've simply interpreted it as the Others being the tree huggers [they are after all referred to as inhuman] and the neverborn as the walkers. GRRM did after all first characterise them as a "different form of life" and then later refer to Ser Puddles being held together by magic - so no, he was never born

Yes, with the way 'neverborn' is used in those old synopses for aGoT, it seems likely that it was indeed being used as a byword for what we now call the walkers (and what people in-world call the Others), and that the prologue would presumably have been an encounter with the "neverborn demons out of legend." 

As to "the Others," it's obviously harder to pinpoint, but given that Celtic Otherworlds (and their Otherworldy denizens) seem a likely inspiration for the term, and that GRRM is also overtly borrowing from Otherworld mythology for the CotF and their culture, it seems reasonable that there was some version of the story where he thought of them as "the Others," before shifting around his nomenclature.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

The problem is that GRRM seems to make it pretty simple:

If the Others raise the neverborn, the Others can't be the neverborn... just as the Others cannot be the wights (and aren't).  

As for the Ironborn being the neverborn, that seems questionable since the Others don't seem to have raised the Ironborn in any sense in canon. 

There are also the Stoneborn on Skagos, of course... but we know very little about them.  Since Davos is apparently going to Skagos, maybe we'll learn more.

Are you trying to tease me, because I think this is the third or fourth time I'll be repeating this. IMO the Others are the Ironborn and they raise the never born white walkers.

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6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO the Others are the Ironborn and they raise the never born white walkers.

Ah, my apologies.  I thought you said earlier that GRRM said another name for the Others was neverborn, which would mean the Others were the neverborn.

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7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, with the way 'neverborn' is used in those old synopses for aGoT, it seems likely that it was indeed being used as a byword for what we now call the walkers (and what people in-world call the Others), and that the prologue would presumably have been an encounter with the "neverborn demons out of legend." 

As to "the Others," it's obviously harder to pinpoint, but given that Celtic Otherworlds (and their Otherworldy denizens) seem a likely inspiration for the term, and that GRRM is also overtly borrowing from Otherworld mythology for the CotF and their culture, it seems reasonable that there was some version of the story where he thought of them as "the Others," before shifting around his nomenclature.

Exactly so. 

The passage in full [from the very earliest synopsis] reads:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

In narrative terms we have three groups:

1. "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others"

raising:

2. cold legions of the undead and the neverborn

 

As actually written the names change a little; the Children of the Forest are never mentioned in either of the synopses, but fit category 1. very closely, ie; they are beyond the Wall, they are half forgotten figures of legend and the epithet demons is certainly applicable given what we know of their demands for blood sacrifice.

The cold legions of the undead, are the clearly wights

And the equally cold neverborn fit the walkers, very closely associated with the undead and raised or created by magic rather than birthed

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, JNR said:

Ah, my apologies.  I thought you said earlier that GRRM said another name for the Others was neverborn, which would mean the Others were the neverborn.

I probably did, because if the Ironborn are creating the white walkers - in my mind - if they are the source then they technically are both the Others and the neverborn. My interpretation is closer to the "blurb" "...the emergence of the Neverborn demons, and the arrival of barbarian hordes." that Matthew provided than the early synopsis.

This line of thought would be the same as saying the shadowbaby Melisandre birthed was still Stannis. It was his life-force that was used to create the creature. He was the source - he was the shadowbaby. We could even accuse Stannis of being an "Other", because he cooperated with Mel to raise an inhuman shadowbaby. I'm not saying Stannis is Ironborn, but he is responsible for creating something inhuman.

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And the equally cold neverborn fit the walkers, very closely associated with the undead and raised or created by magic rather than birthed

Yes, the Others half-forgotten are the White Walkers:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

Which answers my question about the WW that confronts Sam:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

 

I have wondered if the WW was given shape in that moment when the snow fell from the great sentinel tree; a sentinel being a soldier that stands and keeps watch.

It's armor ripples and shifts (like waves created by the movement of air across the surface of a body of water).  It's so light, it doesn't break the crust of new fallen snow.  So propelled by wind or air.  I get the sense that they are creatures made by the storm gods who control air and water. 

Patchface's pronouncement that 'the crows are white as snow' implies to me, that the WW's might be storm crows and the wights are 'carrion' crows.

    

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51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So propelled by wind or air.  I get the sense that they are creatures made by the storm gods who control air and water. 

Let's go through the known bastard surnames and connect them to an element:

waters - waters
snow - (cold) water 
rivers - water
storm - air

sand - (hot) earth
stone - earth
hill - earth
flowers - earth (?)

pyke - the black sheep of the bastard surnames

We get 2 nice groups somehow fitting together and we get ... Pyke. I feel there is a story there. 

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25 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Let's go through the known bastard surnames and connect them to an element:

waters - waters
snow - (cold) water 
rivers - water
storm - air

sand - (hot) earth
stone - earth
hill - earth
flowers - earth (?)

pyke - the black sheep of the bastard surnames

We get 2 nice groups somehow fitting together and we get ... Pyke. I feel there is a story there. 

Northern Pike - a species of fish (pike fishing - incredibly fun).  Danaerys Storm-born.

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55 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Northern Pike - a species of fish (pike fishing - incredibly fun).  Danaerys Storm-born.

I don't know if pike (as in river pike mentioned in Cat III) equals Pyke (as in Cotter Pyke) but a pike is a freshwater fish (!) and the only animal on the list.  

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22 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know if pike (as in river pike mentioned in Cat III) equals Pyke (as in Cotter Pyke) but a pike is a freshwater fish (!) and the only animal on the list.  

The word pike or pyke is used in a number of ways but at its root means something pointy whether that's a long spear, a pointy hill or mountain [eg: Langdale Pike], it can also as you say refer to a type of freshwater fish but that itself gets its name from its pointy mouth

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