Heresy 205 bats and little green men

[Black Crow]

Then again the answer might simply be that Cottar Pyke doesn't bear a bastard name at all but takes it from the Island of Pyke

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know if pike (as in river pike mentioned in Cat III) equals Pyke (as in Cotter Pyke) but a pike is a freshwater fish (!) and the only animal on the list.  

A weir is a fish trap.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, the Others half-forgotten are the White Walkers:

Which answers my question about the WW that confronts Sam:

I have wondered if the WW was given shape in that moment when the snow fell from the great sentinel tree; a sentinel being a soldier that stands and keeps watch.

It's armor ripples and shifts (like waves created by the movement of air across the surface of a body of water).  It's so light, it doesn't break the crust of new fallen snow.  So propelled by wind or air.  I get the sense that they are creatures made by the storm gods who control air and water. 

Patchface's pronouncement that 'the crows are white as snow' implies to me, that the WW's might be storm crows and the wights are 'carrion' crows.

    

 

The Ironborn recognize two gods: the Drowned God (water) and the Storm God (air). Euron says he is the storm - the first one and the last. Sounds to me like he'll be resuscitating the frozen water magic by providing the air necessary to move the wights and create white walkers. He's also known as the Crow's Eye.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Northern Pike - a species of fish (pike fishing - incredibly fun).  Danaerys Storm-born.

 

Seems apt since the Ironborn may also be skinchanging other seafaring creatures.

[Brad Stark]

GRRM said the Others are capable of doing a lot with ice.  There is also hinting that we will see ice spiders.  Perhaps the Others will make creatures out of ice, literally never born.  All other examples,  assuming the Others are Craster's children, are creature that have changed since being born, but were born.

[SirArthur]

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Seems apt since the Ironborn may also be skinchanging other seafaring creatures.

Snow, Hill, Storm, Waters, River, Sand, Stone, Flowers, pointy fish. 

Which are not fitting ?

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Ironborn recognize two gods: the Drowned God (water) and the Storm God (air). Euron says he is the storm - the first one and the last. Sounds to me like he'll be resuscitating the frozen water magic by providing the air necessary to move the wights and create white walkers. He's also known as the Crow's Eye.

Euron mocks the Drowned God.  I think the drowned god is the greenseer that controls the Black Gate, to go with Patchface's under the sea ditties.   Storms are made of water and air; so a combination of the elements; but I think the drowned god is something else:

Spoiler

“Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.”

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2016/05/31/full-analysis-of-new-winds-of-winter-excerpt-the-forsaken-aeron-i/

The 'kiss' of the Black Gate:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

You have to go down a well to get to the gate.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Snow, Hill, Storm, Waters, River, Sand, Stone, Flowers, pointy fish. 

Which are not fitting ?

"The big fish eat the little fish." 

Quote

The Northern pike (Esox lucius), has a number of nicknames such as 'Northern', 'Great northern pike', 'Pike', and 'Jack'. It's name literally means 'water wolf'. The Northern pike is a freshwater game fish and the second largest member of the Esox (Pike) family.

 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Snow, Hill, Storm, Waters, River, Sand, Stone, Flowers, pointy fish. 

Which are not fitting ?

 

Reminds me of that song on Sesame Street, "...one of these things is not like the other (har) eight of these things are kinda the same..."  

Where are you going with this? 

 

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Euron mocks the Drowned God.  I think the drowned god is the greenseer that controls the Black Gate, to go with Patchface's under the sea ditties.   Storms are made of water and air; so a combination of the elements; but I think the drowned god is something else:

  Hide contents

“Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.”

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2016/05/31/full-analysis-of-new-winds-of-winter-excerpt-the-forsaken-aeron-i/

The 'kiss' of the Black Gate:

You have to go down a well to get to the gate.

 

Euron does mock all of the gods, because he thinks his powers are superior, but that doesn't mean he won't use the Drowned God for his purposes. I was rereading Euron last night and while I don't have it at my fingertips I do recall that his men reported that Euron made sacrifices to the Storm God.

I also just posted about the salty tear last night in response to something Frey Family Reunion said over on Hobaw. I wondered if the Black Gate was the Grey King - mainly because of that salty tear, and because he "walked into the sea to descend to the watery halls of the Drowned God..." - well, if the Wall is holding the Drowned God AND the Black Gate is down a well - you can see why I would wonder.

 

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

"The big fish eat the little fish." 

 

 

Water wolf! Fabulous!

[Melifeather]

Found the passage. I believe it's in A Feast for Crows, but since my e-book is a 4-book bundle I cannot tell which book or chapter this is:

The wind was at their backs, as it had been all the way down from Old Wyk. It was whispered about the fleet that Euron's wizards had much and more to do with that, that the Crow's Eye appeased the Storm God with blood sacrifice.

[SirArthur]

28 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Where are you going with this? 

I didn't know when I started but i have an interesting theory: the inhabitants of the Iron Islands are descendants of the Warg King Gaven Greywolf, whom the Starks fought against in a skinchanger war. The Warg King lived at Sea Dragon point together with the children of the forest (hint, many caves there) and the Ironborn (they were born in a war against the iron armed Starks) fled the location. That is why they are so obsessed with Sea Dragon Point. And that is why they don't have a bastard name: the no longer follow the King of Winter and can't use Snow.

I have the second part of the theory but lack the first part which may be in World of Ice and Fire.

the second part about the Ironborn obsession with Sea Dragon Point:

Sea Dragon Point is a forested peninsula west of the wolfswood in the north. - asoiaf wiki

 

"Asha my daughter," Lord Balon went on, and Theon turned to see that his sister had slipped in silently, "you shall take thirty longships of picked men round Sea Dragon Point. Land upon the tidal flats north of Deepwood Motte. March quickly, and the castle may fall before they even know you are upon them." - Theon II - aCoC

This is no plundering operation. Balon is out for land but why Sea Dragon Point ? Why not cape Kraken or the Rills ? Why not bear island ? 

 

"To end this war before this war ends us. We have won all that we are like to win . . . and stand to lose all just as quick, unless we make a peace. I have shown Lady Glover every courtesy, and she swears her lord will treat with me. If we hand back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, and Moat Cailin, she says, the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together. An exchange of hostages will seal the pact, and each side will agree to make common cause with the other should the Iron Throne—"  the Iron captain - aFfC
 

And they want to keep it. Although Victarian (?) later in the same chapter relativates the position. He thinks the Ironborn can defend it forever. Still, it is pointed out that the Ironborn can loose it as fast. That's why they want to make peace. 

 

Asha tried to picture herself abed with Erik Ironmaker, crushed beneath his bulk, suffering his embraces. Better him than the Red Oarsman or Left-Hand Lucas Codd. The Anvil-Breaker had once been a roaring giant, fearsomely strong, fiercely loyal, utterly without fear. It might not be so bad. He's like to die the first time he tries to do his duty as a husband. That would make her Erik's widow instead of Erik's wife, which could be better or a good deal worse, depending on his grandsons. And my nuncle. In the end, all the winds blow me back toward Euron. "I have hostages, on Harlaw," she reminded him. "And there is still Sea Dragon Point … if I cannot have my father's kingdom, why not make one of my own?" Sea Dragon Point had not always been as thinly peopled as it was now. Old ruins could still be found amongst its hills and bogs, the remains of ancient strongholds of the First Men. In the high places, there were weirwood circles left by the children of the forest.

the wayward bride - adwD

Even Asha dreams of a kingdom of her own. But again: Why sea dragon point and not another place ? Because she happened to take this ancient and abandoned land ? Or is there more to it ?

 

"You are clinging to Sea Dragon Point the way a drowning man clings to a bit of wreckage. What does Sea Dragon have that anyone could ever want? There are no mines, no gold, no silver, not even tin or iron. The land is too wet for wheat or corn."

the wayward bride - adwD

 

As I said, the connections to the ironborn are still missing, although the bastard name idea helps. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I didn't know when I started but i have an interesting theory: the inhabitants of the Iron Islands are descendants of the Warg King Gaven Greywolf, whom the Starks fought against in a skinchanger war. The Warg King lived at Sea Dragon point together with the children of the forest (hint, many caves there) and the Ironborn (they were born in a war against the iron armed Starks) fled the location. That is why they are so obsessed with Sea Dragon Point. And that is why they don't have a bastard name: the no longer follow the King of Winter and can't use Snow.

I have the second part of the theory but lack the first part which may be in World of Ice and Fire.

the second part about the Ironborn obsession with Sea Dragon Point:

Sea Dragon Point is a forested peninsula west of the wolfswood in the north. - asoiaf wiki

 

"Asha my daughter," Lord Balon went on, and Theon turned to see that his sister had slipped in silently, "you shall take thirty longships of picked men round Sea Dragon Point. Land upon the tidal flats north of Deepwood Motte. March quickly, and the castle may fall before they even know you are upon them." - Theon II - aCoC

This is no plundering operation. Balon is out for land but why Sea Dragon Point ? Why not cape Kraken or the Rills ? Why not bear island ? 

 

"To end this war before this war ends us. We have won all that we are like to win . . . and stand to lose all just as quick, unless we make a peace. I have shown Lady Glover every courtesy, and she swears her lord will treat with me. If we hand back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, and Moat Cailin, she says, the northmen will cede us Sea Dragon Point and all the Stony Shore. Those lands are thinly peopled, yet ten times larger than all the isles put together. An exchange of hostages will seal the pact, and each side will agree to make common cause with the other should the Iron Throne—"  the Iron captain - aFfC
 

And they want to keep it. Although Victarian (?) later in the same chapter relativates the position. He thinks the Ironborn can defend it forever. Still, it is pointed out that the Ironborn can loose it as fast. That's why they want to make peace. 

 

Asha tried to picture herself abed with Erik Ironmaker, crushed beneath his bulk, suffering his embraces. Better him than the Red Oarsman or Left-Hand Lucas Codd. The Anvil-Breaker had once been a roaring giant, fearsomely strong, fiercely loyal, utterly without fear. It might not be so bad. He's like to die the first time he tries to do his duty as a husband. That would make her Erik's widow instead of Erik's wife, which could be better or a good deal worse, depending on his grandsons. And my nuncle. In the end, all the winds blow me back toward Euron. "I have hostages, on Harlaw," she reminded him. "And there is still Sea Dragon Point … if I cannot have my father's kingdom, why not make one of my own?" Sea Dragon Point had not always been as thinly peopled as it was now. Old ruins could still be found amongst its hills and bogs, the remains of ancient strongholds of the First Men. In the high places, there were weirwood circles left by the children of the forest.

the wayward bride - adwD

Even Asha dreams of a kingdom of her own. But again: Why sea dragon point and not another place ? Because she happened to take this ancient and abandoned land ? Or is there more to it ?

 

"You are clinging to Sea Dragon Point the way a drowning man clings to a bit of wreckage. What does Sea Dragon have that anyone could ever want? There are no mines, no gold, no silver, not even tin or iron. The land is too wet for wheat or corn."

the wayward bride - adwD

 

As I said, the connections to the ironborn are still missing, although the bastard name idea helps. 

It's a good theory and I think you should pursue it, but the real jewel that you've found is the possible connection between the pyke-sea wolf and the Warg King Gaven Greywolf. The "grey" recalls to mind the Grey King and his grey skin. It's a nice alternative explanation as to why the Starks would war against other wargs, especially if those other wargs were "sea wolfs". It's more evidence to support the idea that the Others are the Ironborn. They are of First Men blood too, so it shouldn't be of any surprise if they were skinchangers.

[SirArthur]

doing some research I found that the Ironborn indeed settled the Iron Islands. It would line up really well with the warg war, although a maester thinks the Ironborn came from the west. 

There is also Grey'kings Hall where the Kingsmoot takes place and we even have a connection to the stone in our Starks: The Greywolf is said to have been ruling for thousands of years and turned to stone over time. 

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, SirArthur said:

doing some research I found that the Ironborn indeed settled the Iron Islands. It would line up really well with the warg war, although a maester thinks the Ironborn came from the west. 

There is also Grey'kings Hall where the Kingsmoot takes place and we even have a connection to the stone in our Starks: The Greywolf is said to have been ruling for thousands of years and turned to stone over time. 

A sea wolf is also a species of gray wolf that inhabits mainland coast and near shore islands of British Columbia:

Quote

The British Columbia wolf (Canis lupus columbianus) is a subspecies of gray wolf which lives in a narrow region that includes those parts of the mainland coast and near-shore islands that are covered with temperate rainforest, which extends from Vancouver Island, British Columbia, to the Alexander Archipelago in south-east Alaska.[2] This area is bounded by the Coast Mountains.[3] 

 

[SirArthur]

More connections which is a good thing. But like with baby Jon we have no evidence of the actual movement between Warg King Greywolf at Sea Dragon Point and the Grey King at "freshwater sea wolf".  

What I find most amazing is the connection between the viking longboat (the ironborn use) and the word for them here in germany: Drachenschiff, dragon ship. Because of their dragon sigil in front of the ship. And it makes a lot of sense to me: they are dragonships because they come from sea dragon point. 

Which brings me all the way back to house Hoare, our little flying mouses and our cruical question: who broke the pact in the Warg War ? The Starks or the Ironborn (who were allied with the children of the forest) to build their longships out of weirwood ?

It all comes together at Sea Dragon Point and it is the same question we ask ourself when it comes to Harrenhal: who broke the pact? House Hoare or Aegon ?

[Melifeather]

IMO the drowning and resuscitating ritual that the Drowned God's followers practice is in memory of raising the dead to wights. "What is dead may never die, but rises again, stronger and harder!"

I posit that the Iron Islands were separated from the mainland when the Children called down their hammer of waters. Many Ironborn were killed in the resulting tsunami - they drowned. The survivors cut down Ygg the demon tree and made a longboat then sailed back to the mainland. The Children retaliated by manipulating the seasons to bring about an extended winter to freeze the Ironborn out at sea.

The Ironborn worship their Drowned God, but fear the Storm God much like Christians worship God and fear the Devil. Euron's men reported that the Storm God can be appeased by blood sacrifice to work in their favor, so the Ironborn turned to their "devil" and made blood sacrifice to the Storm God, created white walkers, and walked across the ice bringing the Storm God's magical air to raise the dead.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

More connections which is a good thing. But like with baby Jon we have no evidence of the actual movement between Warg King Greywolf at Sea Dragon Point and the Grey King at "freshwater sea wolf".  

What I find most amazing is the connection between the viking longboat (the ironborn use) and the word for them here in germany: Drachenschiff, dragon ship. Because of their dragon sigil in front of the ship. And it makes a lot of sense to me: they are dragonships because they come from sea dragon point. 

Which brings me all the way back to house Hoare, our little flying mouses and our cruical question: who broke the pact in the Warg War ? The Starks or the Ironborn (who were allied with the children of the forest) to build their longships out of weirwood ?

It all comes together at Sea Dragon Point and it is the same question we ask ourself when it comes to Harrenhal: who broke the pact? House Hoare or Aegon ?

Your connections between the viking longboat, the Ironborn, and the Drachenschiff is amazing! We've often discussed here on Heresy the connection between the First Men and Norse mythology.

Odin - We've got lots of Odin imagery with Bloodraven undead amongst the roots of the weirwood (tree of life).

Jormungand - the great serpent, which I believe is the ouroboros, or rather the wheel of time in the story - the dragon eating its own tail.

Thor - We see echoes of Thor in Robert Baratheon and his hammer, or even the Children's use of the hammer of waters, the lightning connections to the burned offerings in the weirwood of Whitetree, and the lightning sigil of House Kenning of Harlaw representing the Storm God's finger.

Loki - Is Euron our Loki? Loki is the father, by the giantess Angrboda, of Hel - goddess of the underworld. Loki demonstrates a complete lack of concern for the well-being of his fellow gods, a trait which seems to apply to Euron who is

 

going out of his way in the Forsaken chapter to collect priests and leaders of many religions.

Fenrir - Bran may be our wolf that bites off the hand of Tyr (Jaime) 

Baldur - Handsome, gracious, and cheerful - a diety so popular that he radiates light. Lightbringer anyone?

Frigg - A loving sorceress and wife to Odin. We do have a known sorceress in Melisandre, and a suspected sorceress in Val. Then there's Bloodraven's lost love and bastard sister, Shiera Seastar. Shiera was supposed to be a great beauty, spoke multiple languages, and a worker of the dark arts.

I could continue with the list, but you get the picture. My main point is that the Ironborn are a seafaring First Men with strong connections to Norse mythology and viking culture. The wildlings share many parallels to this viking culture with their strong "shield-maiden" women that fight alongside the men. Asha is a classic example of a shield-maiden persona. The shield-maidens of viking culture were inspired of the mythological Valkyrie which are one of a host of female figures who choose those who may live or die in battle. The valkyries bring their chosen dead to the afterlife hall of the slain in Valhalla which is ruled over by Odin, but in our story the wilding after life is with the Drowned God. Even the wildling practice of burning the dead has roots in viking culture where the dead were burnt or buried in their daily clothes, and usually buried along with their personal belongings. Sometimes the viking dead were buried lying in a boat or a wagon.

[SirArthur]

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I posit that the Iron Islands were separated from the mainland when the Children called down their hammer of waters.

Just out of curiosity: How often  do you think the hammer of waters has been used ? Wouldn't it be more logical for the children (allied with the Warg King) to use the hammer as a defensive measure to protect the "sea wolves" on the Iron Islands ? And on a very far fetched note or idea: how would the hammer of the water look like ? Like the storm when Steffen Baratheon died ? Like the storm that destroyed the Targaryen fleet when Dany was born ? Wouldn't it then be a weapon of the storm god and not the drowned god ?

[Black Crow]

16 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

 

Just out of curiosity: How often  do you think the hammer of waters has been used ? Wouldn't it be more logical for the children (allied with the Warg King) to use the hammer as a defensive measure to protect the "sea wolves" on the Iron Islands ? And on a very far fetched note or idea: how would the hammer of the water look like ? Like the storm when Steffen Baratheon died ? Like the storm that destroyed the Targaryen fleet when Dany was born ? Wouldn't it then be a weapon of the storm god and not the drowned god ?

GRRM's model would appear to be the breaching of the Wealden-Artois Anticline, which destroyed the land bridge between Britain and continental Europe. In text the Hammer only appears to have been called down once and specifically in order to break the land bridge between Westeros and Essos - that's not to rule out collateral damage elsewhere, but that's what it was used for

[SirArthur]

33 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM's model would appear to be the breaching of the Wealden-Artois Anticline, which destroyed the land bridge between Britain and continental Europe. In text the Hammer only appears to have been called down once and specifically in order to break the land bridge between Westeros and Essos - that's not to rule out collateral damage elsewhere, but that's what it was used for

on Moat Cailin:

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard's Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin. Cat VIII - aGOT

Theon was about to tell him what he ought to do with his wet nurse's fable when Maester Luwin spoke up. "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge." Theon IV -aCOC

 

If he closed his eyes, he could see the banners in his mind's eye, snapping bravely in a brisk north wind. All gone now, all fallen. The wind on his cheeks was blowing from the south, and the only banners flying above the remains of Moat Cailin displayed a golden kraken on a field of black.

He was being watched. He could feel the eyes. When he looked up, he caught a glimpse of pale faces peering from behind the battlements of the Gatehouse Tower and through the broken masonry that crowned the Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called down the hammer of the waters to break the lands of Westeros in two. - Reek II - aDWD

 

A lot of legend. And only 2 quoted people with the possibility of using the same source: Maester Luwin. On the other hand 3 mentions is one too many for some random bit of world building. But the best part is we get three different bits of information:

- the hammer has been called from the Children's tower (called upon)
- the hammer has been called upon the Neck
- the hammer has been called on or from (not sure) the Children's tower to break the lands in two (called down)

It can be the same event. Supported by the building material and the age:

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter's cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child's wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell's. 

 

hey were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea.

 

My conclusion: Moat Cailin is as old as Winterfell (build with the same height and heavy stone material) and the hammer was called from here. But Dorne has been seperated 12000 years ago, before Winterfell was build. So unless we need some history rewriting or Winterfell is older than the first men, the hammer has been called a second time upon the Children's tower itself. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 

Just out of curiosity: How often  do you think the hammer of waters has been used ? Wouldn't it be more logical for the children (allied with the Warg King) to use the hammer as a defensive measure to protect the "sea wolves" on the Iron Islands ? And on a very far fetched note or idea: how would the hammer of the water look like ? Like the storm when Steffen Baratheon died ? Like the storm that destroyed the Targaryen fleet when Dany was born ? Wouldn't it then be a weapon of the storm god and not the drowned god ?

From the wiki:

When the First Men and the children of the forest first went to war, the old songs say greenseers of the children used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, in a futile attempt to end the invasion of the First Men. Although the shattering of the Arm was successful, it was too late, for the First Men in Westeros had already crossed and the wars went on until the Pact.

The Arm of Dorne was washed away by rising sea levels, but the hammer of waters is only associated with the Neck. We can insert more than one explanation for what the hammer was, but I’m inclined to think it was a meteor.