Heresy 205 bats and little green men

[Black Crow]

20 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Because roman border defence is not build for invasion defence. It is build for movement control. The wall is the opposite: it blocks movement in general and is far too huge for the purpose. 

 

edit: To talk a little bit more about the point: the roman defence system explicitly and everywhere has legions AWAY from the border, stationed in the backyard as a reaction force. They are the key forces and the fast reaction forces and the core of the border defence. Not our Wall. Our wall has an overkill wall and some men guarding it. But no solution once the wall is penetrated. The castles are too close to the wall for that purpose. That is the opposite of the roman system. And there are also no hints of large abandoned structures in the gift or the new gift or even further in the south. 

 

I know, I quite ;iterally live on the Wall 

[The Chequered Raven]

On 23.2.2018 at 8:37 PM, Feather Crystal said:

It was whispered about the fleet that Euron's wizards had much and more to do with that, that the Crow's Eye appeased the Storm God with blood sacrifice.

Well, it was "whispered about" and that ist not quite the same as "it is proof".
Maybe they saw Euron made blood sacrifice - but maybe he did not sacrifice the drowned god but someone or something else, and the sailors just interpreted it as a sacrifice to the drowned god because the drowned god is their god.

Who knows whom Euron sacrifices...???

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

There are major historical events referenced that don't fit the pattern.  For instance, the traditional timeline says Valyria is around 5,000 years old, and that Gendel and Gorne invaded the North about 3,000 years ago.  (That Jon and Ygritte both think this -- coming from two completely different cultures -- is pretty impressive.)

I'm inclined to think that some events are very old given that GRRM has included ice age woolly mammoths and that the breaking of the arm of Dorne; probably an ice age inundation event and so we could be looking at around 10,000 for the Wall, Winterfell and Starfall.  The Andal invasions seem to be more recent events at least within the scope of record keeping.  

  

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Well, it was "whispered about" and that ist not quite the same as "it is proof".
Maybe they saw Euron made blood sacrifice - but maybe he did not sacrifice the drowned god but someone or something else, and the sailors just interpreted it as a sacrifice to the drowned god because the drowned god is their god.

Who knows whom Euron sacrifices...???

 

Spoiler

Euron has said specifically that he has a use for 'holy' blood.  Given that Dany sacrifices Mirri Maaz Duur, who says she is a God's wife but also a maegi;  it isn't only king's blood that appears to have power in bloodmagic sorcery.  In her vision at the HoU; Dany sees a dragon burst from Mirri's brow.   So Euron appears to know something about the uses for holy blood and intends to use it.  

 

[The Chequered Raven]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

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Euron has said specifically that he has a use for 'holy' blood.  Given that Dany sacrifices Mirri Maaz Duur, who says she is a God's wife but also a maegi;  it isn't only king's blood that appears to have power in bloodmagic sorcery.  In her vision at the HoU; Dany sees a dragon burst from Mirri's brow.   So Euron appears to know something about the uses for holy blood and intends to use it.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I do not doubt tht Euron does blood sacrifice, I only doubt that he sacrifices to the drowned god. Only his sailors think so, most likely because the drowned god is the iron islanders god.
Especially the involvement of warlocks (from Quarth) suggest a different god (or demon, if there is a difference between gods and demons...) as the drowned god (from the iron islands).

I think Euron is just experimenting with magic (without much knowledge about the whole thing), maybe he don't even know exactely whom he is sacrificing. Maybe he don't even care as long as it works and he can benefit...

[Matthew.]

 

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We have of course discussed before whether Bloodraven may himself be aware of the form of the Avatar, which may be quite involuntary but one thing I would suggest is that all we actually get are appearances and conversations in dreams, aimed at enticing Bran into the cave. There's no actual evidence of manipulation of events. 

It may be that BR's unawareness of his avatar (as perceived by Bran) is because Bloodraven is no longer just Bloodraven, he's joining the greenseer collective, and just barely hanging onto lucidity for Bran's sake. In that sense, Bloodraven isn't the Crow, but he's a part of the Crow, just as every other GS that lingers in the wood is a part of the Crow; thus, Bran might also gradually become the 3EC.

Alternately, with the prospect of spirits "lingering long" in the wood, it may be that the question with the 3EC is not who it is, but who it was--that it is a guide/messenger with (mostly) good intentions...or, more nefariously, a transmigratory entity that refuses to yield its 'second life.'

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Don't get me wrong, I do not doubt tht Euron does blood sacrifice, I only doubt that he sacrifices to the drowned god. Only his sailors think so, most likely because the drowned god is the iron islanders god.
Especially the involvement of warlocks (from Quarth) suggest a different god (or demon, if there is a difference between gods and demons...) as the drowned god (from the iron islands).

I think Euron is just experimenting with magic (without much knowledge about the whole thing), maybe he don't even know exactely whom he is sacrificing. Maybe he don't even care as long as it works and he can benefit...

He seems to be mocking his brother and his god since he says that the DG has no power and nor can the Damphair feel the presence of his god since the Kingsmoot.   Euron is attempting to make himself into a god with blood sacrifice; including the sacrifice of his salt wife and unborn child and a holy man.  This is very similar to the pattern of sacrifices made by Dany.  It seems to me that Euron is attempting to fulfill the first part of the AA legend  - forging of the sword in water.

 

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth bearing in mind that there is no three-eyed crow [and the three-raven exists only in the mummers version] t least not in the physical sense, and that it only appears in dreams, or if you prefer in Bran's imagination, although that said there's no doubt its an avatar used by another party to commune with him.

Now if we say for the sake of argument that it is indeed Bloodraven behind the mask, its easy to see why he should use an avatar. If he were to appear as he really is then for Bran it would quite literally be a nightmare. The crow on the other hand is more... intriguing.

We have of course discussed before whether Bloodraven may himself be aware of the form of the Avatar, which may be quite involuntary but one thing I would suggest is that all we actually get are appearances and conversations in dreams, aimed at enticing Bran into the cave. There's no actual evidence of manipulation of events. 

Quote

“Are you the three-eyed crow?”
  “A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” 

I understand BR probably wouldn't appear as his physical self if he could choose a form, and he might not be able to choose.  But he has been doing this a very long time and would know that.  Of course, both BR and GRRM are capable of being sarcastic just for the sake of being sarcastic, but I have to wonder if there is more to BR's answer.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Well, it was "whispered about" and that ist not quite the same as "it is proof".
Maybe they saw Euron made blood sacrifice - but maybe he did not sacrifice the drowned god but someone or something else, and the sailors just interpreted it as a sacrifice to the drowned god because the drowned god is their god.

Who knows whom Euron sacrifices...???

It wasn’t the Drowned God he made sacrifices to. He made blood sacrifice to the Storm God. The Ironborn recognize two gods. The Drowned God is the holy god, and the Storm God is their devil.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The problem there is that 300 years ago is well within what passes for recorded history in Westeros and while we have stories such as the Manderleys coming north to settle at White Harbor, the fall of House Mudd and so on. We appear to have even more on House Hoare but nowhere is there any mention of such a conflict.

We do have some evidence of the Northwest being important - Mance looking in the Frostfangs for the horn, and the ruins at Sea Dragon point.  But nothing within the last 300 years, and as I said this is at odds with what we know about the Wildlings.  But a threat in the North explains the rise and fall of Night's Watch, and as I said, those writing history could have reason to deliberately change it.

Pax Targanyan being the reason the watch weakened is a reason, not one I agree with, but it is something.  On the other hand, we have no other explanation for the garrisoning of the Wall thousands of years after whatever it was originally used for.

[SirArthur]

16 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

But a threat in the North explains the rise and fall of Night's Watch, and as I said, those writing history could have reason to deliberately change it.

I don't think this is possible. Unless the Wall is held by some slave army, every soldier in Westeros has a family. And most have sisters or brothers, the rich houses have tombs and history books. They keep track of the appearance of their members and their features. They have extended family trees and all the shield hanging in the great hall of the Nightfort.

Yes, there is Bloodraven and Aemon, both should have watched the decline of the Watch and should be able to tell us more about it. 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm inclined to think that some events are very old given that GRRM has included ice age woolly mammoths and that the breaking of the arm of Dorne; probably an ice age inundation event and so we could be looking at around 10,000 for the Wall, Winterfell and Starfall.  The Andal invasions seem to be more recent events at least within the scope of record keeping.  

  

I doubt that mammoths are a reliable indication of antiquity given that the Wildlings use them to attack the Wall. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

We do have some evidence of the Northwest being important - Mance looking in the Frostfangs for the horn, and the ruins at Sea Dragon point.  But nothing within the last 300 years, and as I said this is at odds with what we know about the Wildlings.  But a threat in the North explains the rise and fall of Night's Watch, and as I said, those writing history could have reason to deliberately change it.

Pax Targanyan being the reason the watch weakened is a reason, not one I agree with, but it is something.  On the other hand, we have no other explanation for the garrisoning of the Wall thousands of years after whatever it was originally used for.

Another contra-indicator is Mormont's flat out insistence that nothing in that line has happened for so long that the Watch has forgotten its purpose.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

 

It may be that BR's unawareness of his avatar (as perceived by Bran) is because Bloodraven is no longer just Bloodraven, he's joining the greenseer collective, and just barely hanging onto lucidity for Bran's sake. In that sense, Bloodraven isn't the Crow, but he's a part of the Crow, just as every other GS that lingers in the wood is a part of the Crow; thus, Bran might also gradually become the 3EC.

Alternately, with the prospect of spirits "lingering long" in the wood, it may be that the question with the 3EC is not who it is, but who it was--that it is a guide/messenger with (mostly) good intentions...or, more nefariously, a transmigratory entity that refuses to yield its 'second life.'

I could go along with this. Bloodraven was once a crow so he may well appear as one. Bran was never a crow so that may be why he appears as a tree [the default setting?]. I think the simplest answer is that Bloodraven and Bran reach out to the dreams of those they wish to communicate and may not be aware or fully aware of how they are actually seen, its not as if they are physically manifesting themselves, although that may be the case with Quaithe - and why is she masked?

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I doubt that mammoths are a reliable indication of antiquity given that the Wildlings use them to attack the Wall. 

Small populations of mammoths existed long after the majority became extinct. 

Quote

It disappeared from its mainland range at the end of the Pleistocene 10,000 years ago, most likely through climate change and consequent shrinkage of its habitat, hunting by humans, or a combination of the two. Isolated populations survived on St. Paul Island until 5,600 years ago and Wrangel Island until 4,000 years ago.

The wildlings only have access to mammoths because they are beast of burden for giants. 

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Another contra-indicator is Mormont's flat out insistence that nothing in that line has happened for so long that the Watch has forgotten its purpose.

To guard the Nightfort. Duh. ( ) "The castle was rebuilt many times over thousands of years, with only deep stone vaults remaining from its first form."

Quite different from Winterfell, Storm's End, the Eyrie or Casterly Rock. Unless a castle gets destroyed there is no need in Westeros to rebuild it (they didn't even rebuild the collapsed vault in the Winterfell crypts). Well that and abandoning it over and over again, so that the weather can destroy it. 

Btw I have a riddle:

Jon could taste the mockery there, but there was no denying the truth. The Watch had built nineteen great strongholds along the Wall, but only three were still occupied: A Game of Thrones - Jon III

---

"Yes. To be sure." The Old Bear unrolled a map, frowned at it, tossed it aside, opened another. He was pondering where the hammer would fall, Jon could see it. The Watch had once manned seventeen castles along the hundred leagues of the Wall, but they had been abandoned one by one as the brotherhood dwindled. Only three were now garrisoned, a fact that Mance Rayder knew as well as they did. "Ser Alliser Thorne will bring back fresh levies from King's Landing, we can hope. If we man Greyguard from the Shadow Tower and the Long Barrow from Eastwatch . . ." - A Clash of Kings - Jon V

--- 

"Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested that the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. Deep Lake had been paid for by the queen's jewels and built by the men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers had abandoned the Nightfort to the rats. All Bran IV - aSOS

 

19 castles, 17 max manned at the same time, the Nightfort replaced with Deep Lake. Help me out, I am missing a replacement castle.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

19 castles, 17 max manned at the same time, the Nightfort replaced with Deep Lake. Help me out, I am missing a replacement castle.

This is the list from the wiki:

The nineteen castles on the Wall, listed from west to east, are:

• Westwatch-by-the-Bridge
• The Shadow Tower, commanded by Ser Denys Mallister
• Sentinel Stand
• Greyguard
• Stonedoor
• Hoarfrost Hill
• Icemark
• The Nightfort
• Deep Lake
• Queensgate
• Castle Black, commanded by the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch
• Oakenshield
• Woodswatch-by-the-Pool
• Sable Hall
• Rimegate
• Long Barrow
• The Torches
• Greenguard
• Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, commanded by Cotter Pyke

Queensgate used to be Snowgate.

[SirArthur]

I've gone through the list and visited each wiki page for the castles. It's just not there. 19 castles build, 17 manned at peak time, 1 replaced and 1 mystery.   Was there a castle that has been a ruin for a long time ? I just find it odd, all those numbers, names for every castle and then something does not add up. 

I found other interesting number plays with 19 and 17 in Theon and Tyrion chapters, mostly out of the blue with a direct wall reference in it (like a Tyrion dream with the number 17 or 19 (can't remember) and the word deep lake in it where people get drowned under the water. Something to research but at least not for me at the moment. 

[LordImp]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

He seems to be mocking his brother and his god since he says that the DG has no power and nor can the Damphair feel the presence of his god since the Kingsmoot.   Euron is attempting to make himself into a god with blood sacrifice; including the sacrifice of his salt wife and unborn child and a holy man.  This is very similar to the pattern of sacrifices made by Dany.  It seems to me that Euron is attempting to fulfill the first part of the AA legend  - forging of the sword in water.

 

For some reason I think Euron has some connection to some creepy stuff in Asshai. 

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think the simplest answer is that Bloodraven and Bran reach out to the dreams of those they wish to communicate and may not be aware or fully aware of how they are actually seen, its not as if they are physically manifesting themselves, although that may be the case with Quaithe - and why is she masked?

Assuming that the answer isn't the straightforward one - that it's just a creepy cultural affectation on GRRM's part for the Shadowlanders - then the next obvious speculative answer is that the mask obscures an important identity; however, as you allude to, it may be that Quaithe has only ever appeared as a projection, even in Qarth where she may have been allowing Jorah and the Dothraki to see her.

As you question, if Quaithe can project any image she wishes, why project herself masked? She could, in theory, just give herself a false face that would functionally be the same as the mask.

Again, setting aside the obvious answer (it's a Shadow cultural thing) I'll make the crackpot proposal that she appears in Shadow land garb to maintain the fiction of the "Quaithe of the Shadow" persona, for both Dany and the reader--so that we will be deceived into thinking this is some random figure from the far east, when it might really be someone far closer to home (Westeros) using a glass candle.