Heresy 205 bats and little green men

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Kraken and Dark flame are meant as a pair and Victarion does have a red priest with him.

I am fully aware of that. But George once was read this chapter at a con prior to the ADWD release. In the chapter he read it was Crow and Kraken , not Dark flame . In the released chapter he had removed Crow and replaced it with Dark flame. 

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is all I can find:

As mentioned above George originally had Crow and Kraken , but he replaced Crow with Dark flame when he released ADWD. 

My point was that it seems like George at first had Quathie warn Dany about Euron ( Hence the Crow) .

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I am fully aware of that. But George once was read this chapter at a con prior to the ADWD release. In the chapter he read it was Crow and Kraken , not Dark flame . In the released chapter he had removed Crow and replaced it with Dark flame. 

 

As mentioned above George originally had Crow and Kraken , but he replaced Crow with Dark flame when he released ADWD. 

My point was that it seems like George at first had Quathie warn Dany about Euron ( Hence the Crow) .

Hmmm, very interesting indeed! Maybe he felt "crow" was too revealing?

Edited to add: wouldn't it be even more interesting if the red priest was Euron in disguise? 

[LordImp]

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Hmmm, very interesting indeed! Maybe he felt "crow" was too revealing?

Edited to add: wouldn't it be even more interesting if the red priest was Euron in disguise? 

Could be that he intended for Euron to go to Mereen. Anyway weird that Quathie dosen't mention him when he's obviously Dany's biggest threat. 

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I am fully aware of that. But George once was read this chapter at a con prior to the ADWD release. In the chapter he read it was Crow and Kraken , not Dark flame . In the released chapter he had removed Crow and replaced it with Dark flame.

As mentioned above George originally had Crow and Kraken , but he replaced Crow with Dark flame when he released ADWD. 

My point was that it seems like George at first had Quathie warn Dany about Euron ( Hence the Crow) .

I didn't know that it was changed.  I guess Euron Crow's Eye is a little too on the mark.  LOL

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Yes, Marwyn might have been omitted as a part of a 'riddle' that was more political than mystical; a list of people that are to be distrusted, with Marwyn conveniently left out. However, that comes with some asterisks:

-Marwyn could be the perfumed seneschal (he may have served as seneschal in the Citadel, but I don't know whether he'd qualify as 'perfumed')
-Marwyn was left out because he does, in fact, have Dany's best interests in mind
-Alternately, he is not in league with Quaithe, but the end point of his 'guidance' would not undermine whatever Quaithe is pushing Dany toward

Looking at Quentyn and Tyrion, they are not necessarily dangerous to Dany, but they do want to co-opt her cause for earthly/selfish reasons; given that one of Quaithe's appearances directly follows Dany's dream of burning an ice-armored version of Robert's army on the Trident, it may be that Quaithe doesn't want Dany to become distracted from her true purpose ("remember who you are, remember what you were made to be").
____

As to the shadowbinder question, it might be noted that Marwyn is said to have spent 8 years in the far east, mapping, gathering lore, and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders. That being the case, it may be that Marwyn and his acolytes have some amount of that magical lore at their disposal, so I think theories that Quaithe's identity, interests, and physical location are to be found "in house," as BC put it, are not incompatible with her having legitimate sorcery.

Edit: As a different take on the above, it may also be that Quaithe is not among Marwyn's Oldtown coterie, but that her and Marywn still know one another. Could Quaithe be one of the shadowbinders Marwyn studied under? Did her guidance play a role in Marwyn coming to understand the glass candles?

The question is whether or not Quaithe being "of the Shadow" - with the masks established as an element of Shadow Man/Woman culture in Dany's aGoT chapters - is a convenient persona that allows her to go about masked without that fact being too noteworthy (particularly in a place like Qarth), while the mask is actually obscuring an identity--particularly, obscuring it from the reader. Perhaps not, but I don't think it's a fruitless line of pursuit.

While I wouldn't quarrel withis this I would offer a softly whispered reminder that in the end these are minor characters, who may interfere with the plans and ambitions of the established major characters. may irritate them and occasionally impede or aid them, but they are not themselves going to amount to more than walk-ons 

[Melifeather]

Just now, Black Crow said:

While I wouldn't quarrel withis this I would offer a softly whispered reminder that in the end these are minor characters, who may interfere with the plans and ambitions of the established major characters. may irritate them and occasionally impede or aid them, but they are not themselves going to amount to more than walk-ons 

I don't know about that. If Euron is the 3EC and the source of the "gathering storm" behind the white walkers, then these "minor" characters are trying to influence what Dany does. I don't think that sounds minor at all.

I want to know what the heck the Citadel is trying to do. Are they working with or against Euron? One would think "against", but Marwyn seems to be going rogue and against whatever position the Citadel is. 

[The Chequered Raven]

On 25.2.2018 at 7:24 PM, LynnS said:

This is very similar to the pattern of sacrifices made by Dany.  It seems to me that Euron is attempting to fulfill the first part of the AA legend  - forging of the sword in water.

Interesting thought. Do you think this is his goal?

To me in all likelyhood he's more the one who tries some magic without really understanding what he is doing...
A kind of trial and error.

But that's more a gut-feeling about Euron, not textproofed.

[The Chequered Raven]

On 26.2.2018 at 11:16 AM, LynnS said:

So when Quaithe tells Dany that she is coming to her 'by other means'; my first guess is a glass candle.  But I wonder about the reference to moonlight; something I associate with weirwoods:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Reznak? Why should I fear him?" Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. "If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?"

Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."

I also wonder about the claim that Quaithe is a shadowbinder.  This business of touching Dany's wrist might be a kind of shadowbinding that allows Quaithe to come to Dany by other means rather than by glass candle. I expect someone peering through flames to have eyes like burning coals rather than shining with moonlight.  

I always interpreted this as the real moonlight reflecting in Quaithes Eyes. The scene takes place at night, so it could be the real moon reflecting in her eyes.

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Interesting thought. Do you think this is his goal?

To me he in all likelyhood he's more the one who tries some magic without really understanding what he is doing...
A kind of trial and error.

But that's more a gut-feeling about Euron, not textproofed.

Don't forget he's a lapsed apprentice. He said the crow lied to him about being able to fly, so he must have had a near death experience like Bran. Thanks to @PrettyPig 's awesome Marvel essays I am convinced GRRM is having Euron follow the Dr Strange story line (somewhat) with Euron mimicking Mordo who was the Ancient One/Sorcerer Supreme's apprentice (greenseer) before Dr Strange (Bran).

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

While I wouldn't quarrel withis this I would offer a softly whispered reminder that in the end these are minor characters, who may interfere with the plans and ambitions of the established major characters. may irritate them and occasionally impede or aid them, but they are not themselves going to amount to more than walk-ons 

As of aCoK, the same could have been said (and can still be said) of Walder Frey.

How consequential Quaithe might be depends on what exactly it is that she wants the major character, Dany, to do in "remembering who she is;" she could simply be telling Dany to quit trying to fix Slaver's Bay in her typically indirect fashion, or she may have something more ominous in mind.

In particular, of all of the people looking to attach themselves to Dany, Quaithe and Marwyn are (for the moment) the most mysterious and inscrutable; we more or less know what Victarion, Moqorro and Benerro, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Connington want/wanted. 

With Quaithe, I find myself torn between two gut instincts as a reader. On the one hand, I increasingly favor theories that simplify, consolidate, and keep things "in house," that tie everything up in a neat Westerosi bow.

On the other hand, taking Quiathe's identity at face value, I also have a gut feeling that, along with Bloodraven, Quaithe is one of the only characters that truly understands what is happening, in magical terms--that she knows what the events are that are unfolding, and comprehends them without superstition.

[SirArthur]

I like the Duskendale idea. But I find it strange that houses can incorporate a white shield for every member that served in the kingsguard into their coat of arms. 

Why is it a white mouse?  Kingsguard? 

[JNR]

Yes, I think this:

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

what exactly it is that she wants the major character, Dany, to do in "remembering who she is;"

Is probably closely related to this:

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Quaithe is one of the only characters that truly understands what is happening, in magical terms--that she knows what the events are that are unfolding

I think you're right about this.  So Quaithe is not thinking in political terms -- that Dany is a Targaryen, or that she is a candidate to inherit the Iron Throne, or anything along these lines.

This is also evident in her remark

Quote

"The dragons know. Do you?"

Because whatever Dany's dragons know, I think we can safely say it's not politics.

[SirArthur]

14 minutes ago, JNR said:

Because whatever Dany's dragons know, I think we can safely say it's not politics.

Fly. Fly like a crow. Or a raven. Or under water. I so want to see Patchface dance in front of Quaithe and give clownish answers to her riddles. 

On a more serious note: Dany's dragons ? Who said anything about Dany's ? Shireen and Stannis and Aemon know something: the history of house Targaryen.

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

While I wouldn't quarrel withis this I would offer a softly whispered reminder that in the end these are minor characters, who may interfere with the plans and ambitions of the established major characters. may irritate them and occasionally impede or aid them, but they are not themselves going to amount to more than walk-ons 

I disagree,  and while I believe they won't be as important as most of the POV characters,  with GRRM you never know.   The first book was very convincing that Ned would be the central character of the series and Rob had that role for a while.  Almost everyone other than me believs Euron is a major character,  but Quaith and Marwyn have had as much screen time as Euron so far.  

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

I think you're right about this.  So Quaithe is not thinking in political terms -- that Dany is a Targaryen, or that she is a candidate to inherit the Iron Throne, or anything along these lines.

Quaithe's end goals may not be political, but it may be that she cannot achieve her end goals without some amount of political calculation.

Dany, by her nature, cannot be an apolitical figure; the Mad King's daughter showing up on the shores of Westeros with three dragons will have fallout, and I'd hazard a guess that guiding Dany might, to some extent, involve navigating that fallout--if for no other reason than to ensure that Dany doesn't die before achieving whatever it is that Quaithe believes she is meant to achieve. She is, at the least, already counseling Dany to distrust potential allies. 

Is Quaithe concerned about the Others? If so, does she consider it important to have a united front to oppose them?
(Edit: For the sake of clarity, when I ask questions, they are not rhetorical, and I do not mean to imply a particular answer--I sincerely want to know how people interpret figures like Quaithe)

Melisandre finds herself facing a similar issue; she did not come west to put another vain king on another empty throne, yet Westerosi disunity is a threat to her goals, a threat to Stannis.

Of course, it may be that Quaithe has already revealed her approach to political issues in telling Dany to remember her words--"don't waste time cultivating relationships (planting trees), take what you need to take with Fire and Blood." An approach that might save a lot of time, but also terribly weaken Westeros' ability to resist the Others, and leave Dany's present allies wondering whether or not she's become a Mad Queen.

Hmmm. Which raises yet another consideration: Quaithe might be knowledgeable, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's wise.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Almost everyone other than me believs Euron is a major character,  but Quaith and Marwyn have had as much screen time as Euron so far.  

I see what you mean. I'd like to trust my instincts as a reader--presumptions that things like "screen time" (narrative prominence) matter, or that the author aspires to a cohesive narrative and organic plot developments that are built on compounding foundations (eg, book 1 introduces a premise, book 2 elaborates, book 3 elaborates more, book 4 pays off)... and yet ...

My instincts as a reader would have never lead me to guess that the author would spend two (eventually three!) books in Slaver's Bay, or that that plot point would suck in an ever-increasing number of POV characters. 

Nor would they have lead me to guess that the author would introduce a whole slew of characters that had never appeared (and, in many cases, never even been mentioned), located in a region that had never appeared, and devote an entire section of a book to their infighting, yet the whole Dornish plotline exists. So, who knows 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

On a more serious note: Dany's dragons ? Who said anything about Dany's ? Shireen and Stannis and Aemon know something: the history of house Targaryen.

I considered this interpretation, but Aemon is dead, and Shireen and Stannis are sufficiently far removed from dragons in the Targ sense, they barely have a scale between them.  Certainly neither would use the phrase "I am the blood of the dragon" with a straight face.  

So I'm reasonably sure Quaithe meant Dany's three; Quaithe thinks they know something about Dany that Dany herself has forgotten.

56 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Quaithe might be knowledgeable, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's wise.

That's true too.  Still, the class of information she seems to have is striking. 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I disagree,  and while I believe they won't be as important as most of the POV characters,  with GRRM you never know.   The first book was very convincing that Ned would be the central character of the series and Rob had that role for a while.  Almost everyone other than me believs Euron is a major character,  but Quaith and Marwyn have had as much screen time as Euron so far.  

It depends how you define important characters. As Matthew observes Walder Frey was important insofar as he offed Robb Stark and his mother, but unlike the surviving children of Winterfell [and that woman with the big lizards] he aint going anywhere

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

So I'm reasonably sure Quaithe meant Dany's three; Quaithe thinks they know something about Dany that Dany herself has forgotten.

No shit Quaithe. Maybe they remember the house of the Undying or their birth. But how the heck should they communicate with Dany ? One opens it's mouth and speaks: "Hodor" ? They may know something but it is like with Quaithe: If that lady cannot communicate in a way Dany understands, the communication is pointless. 

[Melony Bloodstar]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

No shit Quaithe. Maybe they remember the house of the Undying or their birth. But how the heck should they communicate with Dany ? One opens it's mouth and speaks: "Hodor" ? They may know something but it is like with Quaithe: If that lady cannot communicate in a way Dany understands, the communication is pointless. 

My impression was that the dragons communicate to Dany through their actions and instincts rather than through literal words, in a similar way to how Ghost communicates with Jon outside of warging. So, essentially, Quaithe is telling Dany to play close attention to her dragons and trust their instincts above all, which she hasn't done since coming to Meereen. It's not like they're going to give clear answers, but a general sense can be found.

It's anybody's guess as to what's stopping Quaithe from talking like a real person with real information, though. Maybe it's a Ghost of High Heart situation where she's simply giving the information as she's received it without interpretation. Maybe she's heard about what a mess of things that red woman up in Westeros is making by trying to make prophecy too literal and specific. Who knows.