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Heresy 205 bats and little green men


Black Crow

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Long Night - Last Hero

If the Starks were behind the white walkers during the Long Night, who was the Last Hero? Were the Starks defeated and pushed beyond the Wall? :lol:  Of course they were not! The white walkers, the Others, were defeated and warded behind the Wall which is overseen, kind of, by House Stark. Home of Winter-fell, Winter is Coming, and Kings of Winter that wield a sword named ICE!

The Starks defeated winter - they are not the ice in this song.

 

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37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the Starks were behind the white walkers during the Long Night, who was the Last Hero? Were the Starks defeated and pushed beyond the Wall? :lol:  Of course they were not! The white walkers, the Others, were defeated and warded behind the Wall which is overseen, kind of, by House Stark. Home of Winter-fell, Winter is Coming, and Kings of Winter that wield a sword named ICE!

The Starks defeated winter - they are not the ice in this song.

I don't want to speak in error on his behalf, but I don't believe BC is suggesting that House Stark engineered the LN.

Unless I misunderstand his ideas, he doesn't believe that the Others were "defeated" and pushed beyond the Wall in the first place--he believes that the CotF utilized the WWs to terrorize the FM into crying pax, and the Wall was initially established as a demarcation line to divide the Haunted Forest from the realms of men, and it is in that early aftermath that House Stark's relationship with the CotF, the old gods, and the WWs develops; a relationship that is later rejected by Brandon the Breaker during the downfall of the NK.

A rough chronology might be:
The first WWs are made > Long Night > Uneasy Peace, House Stark acquires CotF sorcery > Some Kings of Winter live out their second lives in WW bodies > War between the Stark in Winterfell and the NK > The crypts are warded, House Stark breaks its ties with sorcery, the nature of the NW changes, revisionist history, etc.
___

As some additional input, while I think the LH might be most easily read as Brandon the Builder in aGoT (if he is to be read as anyone at all), I think the addition of the "dragonsteel" wrinkle creates an altered context, one in which he is potentially a prolific Other slayer with a magical blade.

That being the case, I think there will be a trend toward suggesting that the LH was an ancient Dayne (or perhaps some pre-Valyrian or early Valyrian figure utilizing "fire sorcery," depending on the timeline); granted, a Sword of the Morning wielding a blade called Dawn to end the Long Night would be a little on the nose, but then, I think GRRM goes a little overboard with tautology in general, so I don't see why House Dayne would be immune to that habit.

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Old Nan's tale of The Long Night & Last Hero

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

  “You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously. 

  “The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?” 

  “Well,” Bran said reluctantly, 

  “yes, only …” Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.” 

  Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen. 

  “Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—”

Edited to add:
 

  All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

 

Much, much later in the story...

  The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in “The Night That Ended” where the Night’s Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

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39 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

“Delusion” is the word, in most cases.  

Prophecy-induced insanity.

Yes. Yes. I’m quite familiar with that. I believe that it might just fit. 

BTW, Any idea what happened to the DJ? I’m certain there has to be a Guster song that works with this. :D 

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50 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Long Night - Last Hero

If the Starks were behind the white walkers during the Long Night, who was the Last Hero? Were the Starks defeated and pushed beyond the Wall? :lol:  Of course they were not! The white walkers, the Others, were defeated and warded behind the Wall which is overseen, kind of, by House Stark. Home of Winter-fell, Winter is Coming, and Kings of Winter that wield a sword named ICE!

The Starks defeated winter - they are not the ice in this song.

Except.... when exactly was the Night’s Watch founded? During the Long Night or after it? I’m pretty sure that there’s nothing that tells us that one way or the other. (Not that I couldn’t be wrong about that.) If it was created during the Long Night, it might not have taken very long to reach the 13th LC. Not to mention that with all of those 13s together, I’m going to guess that it’s more meant as a significant number rather than an actual one. Is there anyway to guarantee that the Night’s King did not in fact rule during the Long Night? If that’s the case, it could have been the Last Hero and the remaining Starks that overthrew him and at the same time ended the Long Night, making the Starks both villain and hero. Because honestly, we don’t know for sure what the original purpose of the wall was meant to be, or even why the Wildlings wound up on the other side. The original purpose might well be lost to time. Currently in the story it shuts the Wildlings out, but that might be completely unrelated to its original purpose. 

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8 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Except.... when exactly was the Night’s Watch founded? During the Long Night or after it? I’m pretty sure that there’s nothing that tells us that one way or the other.

Well there is Symeon Star-Eyes who sees Hellhounds at the Nightfort. He is supposed to be a legendary hero during the age of heroes and if the heroes are the twelve companions who travel with the last hero - they die.  So the Nightfort must be older than the Last Hero searching for the children. 

If the legend is true and he is indeed one of the companions.

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16 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I don't want to speak in error on his behalf, but I don't believe BC is suggesting that House Stark engineered the LN.

Don't you think its contradictory to say that the Starks had no part in engineering the Long Night, but then are able to skin change into white walkers later on?

16 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Unless I misunderstand his ideas, he doesn't believe that the Others were "defeated" and pushed beyond the Wall in the first place--he believes that the CotF utilized the WWs to terrorize the FM into crying pax, and the Wall was initially established as a demarcation line to divide the Haunted Forest from the realms of men, and it is in that early aftermath that House Stark's relationship with the CotF, the old gods, and the WWs develops; a relationship that is later rejected by Brandon the Breaker during the downfall of the NK.

1) If the CotF created the WW they would have been guilty of breaking the Pact. There would also be no incentive to stop until every last FM was dead.

2) If the FM created the WW then they would be guilty of breaking the Pact. The FM went in search of the CotF for help. Seems kind of ridiculous if the FM created the WW and then went to the CotF for help,. The Pact was said to have remained in place all through the LN. Which means:

3) If the Ironborn were responsible for creating the WW and were terrorizing the rest of the 100 kingdoms - The survivors selected a detachment of thirteen men led by the LH to search out the CotF for help. The LH would've reminded the CotF that they had a PACT and that would have compelled to CotF to help those that remained true to the Pact.

16 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

A rough chronology might be:
The first WWs are made > Long Night > Uneasy Peace, House Stark acquires CotF sorcery > Some Kings of Winter live out their second lives in WW bodies > War between the Stark in Winterfell and the NK > The crypts are warded, House Stark breaks its ties with sorcery, the nature of the NW changes, revisionist history, etc.

A smoother chronology might be:

Durran Godsgrief invited some CotF to his wedding, killed them all Walder Frey style, as a blood sacrifice, wedding the sea god with the goddess of the wind to birth the ice shadows known colloquially as white walkers. Recall that Melisandre also birthed a shadowbaby underneath this same castle - Storms End - which appears to be a mirrored inversion.

Durran harnessed the storm and used his white walkers to bring on the Long Night. It's said he ruled for 1000 years. The Grey King of the Ironborn was also said to have ruled for over a thousand years. Is it possible that Durran became the Grey King after he himself was "turned" icy gray?

The survivors from some of the other 100 kingdoms selected a detachment of thirteen men to seek out the CotF for help. The search took years and one by one they all died, all but the Last Hero. It's possible that the LH's dog was actually a direwolf.

How did the CotF help? They told the LH how the Others could be defeated. IMO it's telling that they only come out at night. I think it's implied that the people behind the white walkers were actually skinchangers. If these people could be attacked during daylight hours, they could be rounded up and imprisoned. The Starks, being skinchangers themselves, are able to slip into their dead and fight the white walkers that way, because a corpse doesn't have the hot smell of blood. The Nights Watch is formed, and the Ironborn defeated and imprisoned. The Wall gets built, and the Starks get Winterfell.

16 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

As some additional input, while I think the LH might be most easily read as Brandon the Builder in aGoT (if he is to be read as anyone at all), I think the addition of the "dragonsteel" wrinkle creates an altered context, one in which he is potentially a prolific Other slayer with a magical blade.

In my opinion the Children's primary weapon is fire magic. I detailed my theory about this up thread, but the use of obsidian and calling it "dragonglass" as well as a sword that works against WW is called dragonsteel, is just more evidence - I think.

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43 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Except.... when exactly was the Night’s Watch founded? During the Long Night or after it? I’m pretty sure that there’s nothing that tells us that one way or the other. (Not that I couldn’t be wrong about that.) If it was created during the Long Night, it might not have taken very long to reach the 13th LC. Not to mention that with all of those 13s together, I’m going to guess that it’s more meant as a significant number rather than an actual one. Is there anyway to guarantee that the Night’s King did not in fact rule during the Long Night? If that’s the case, it could have been the Last Hero and the remaining Starks that overthrew him and at the same time ended the Long Night, making the Starks both villain and hero. Because honestly, we don’t know for sure what the original purpose of the wall was meant to be, or even why the Wildlings wound up on the other side. The original purpose might well be lost to time. Currently in the story it shuts the Wildlings out, but that might be completely unrelated to its original purpose. 

I think the story of the Nights King just muddies up the reader's comprehension of the Long Night. Sounds like many associate the two together when the two events are supposed to be years apart. BC seems to think the LC's are in charge for an average of 8 years each, so if he's the 13th LC then it's been over a hundred years since the LN ended.

I do think the Nights Watch began during the LN though, because even it's very name suggests it. Who else would they be watching out for than white walkers and wights? And when the pledge mentions "watchers on the walls" as in plural, it could be referring to all the castle walls in the various hundred kingdoms that existed during the Long Night.

The reason why the NK was overthrown was because he was doing something that the Others were guilty of doing a hundred or more years before: sacrificing Children...and I mean capital C Children of the Forest. Recall the Nights Watch don't marry or bear children, so the only children being sacrificed were Children.

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21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the story of the Nights King just muddies up the reader's comprehension of the Long Night. Sounds like many associate the two together when the two events are supposed to be years apart. BC seems to think the LC's are in charge for an average of 8 years each, so if he's the 13th LC then it's been over a hundred years since the LN ended.

I do think the Nights Watch began during the LN though, because even it's very name suggests it. Who else would they be watching out for than white walkers and wights? And when the pledge mentions "watchers on the walls" as in plural, it could be referring to all the castle walls in the various hundred kingdoms that existed during the Long Night.

The reason why the NK was overthrown was because he was doing something that the Others were guilty of doing a hundred or more years before: sacrificing Children...and I mean capital C Children of the Forest. Recall the Nights Watch don't marry or bear children, so the only children being sacrificed were Children.

Maybe. But the thing is, IF the Watch was formed during the Long Night, and IF the Others “swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain,” then I’m not sure how well that average life span of eight years might hold up under the circumstances. I’d imagine that there might, in fact, be a whole lot of untimely deaths around that time. Not to mention, think about the logic of the whole thing. A bare century after a nearly cataclysmic event some guy gets the idea to start the whole thing over again? Meanwhile after that nobody else bothers to do it for another 8,000 years? It just doesn’t make sense. 

And as for saying that the Nights King was sacrificing children and it had to be CotF because the Watch doesn’t marry, isn’t his Queen the one who supposedly got him in this mess to begin with? He could have been sacrificing his own children with her. I’m just not certain it’s as cut and dry as you’re making it sound. I don’t disagree that Duran Godsgrief was working some sort of magic, nor the Grey King. (Especially him with the whole burning tree thing.) I just don’t think that they were the only ones. Not to mention that there are “things in the water” that we have yet to account for. 

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Don't you think its contradictory to say that the Starks had no part in engineering the Long Night, but then are able to skin change into white walkers later on?

No, not any more than it is contradictory to observe that, at one point, the FM were destroying the sacred groves of the old gods, and later, they were cultivating them. 

The way in which the NK's tale is presented suggests the possibility that there may have still been Others present to which one might sacrifice, that there was a "Night's Queen" that possessed qualities that might be associated with the wights and the white walkers--in short, that there may have been a period following the LN where the Others might still be encountered on occasion. It is during this period, presumably, that one might speculate that there was an association between the Kings of Winter and the Others.
 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

1) If the CotF created the WW they would have been guilty of breaking the Pact. There would also be no incentive to stop until every last FM was dead.

Based on what I have read of BC's posts in the past, his suggestion would be that it is the LN that caused men to agree to the Pact in the first place, though one could also speculate that Pact violations could have prompted the creation of the WWs.

It may also be the case that, if the CotF unleashed the WWs, it does not necessarily follow that they were controlling them (sword without a hilt),  that their initial intent was to create something to defend the Haunted Forest, and things escalated wildly out of control.

As to why the CotF might agree to an alliance, I think there are two potential incentives: 1.) as suggested above, they no longer had control over what they had unleashed, or 2.) they were thinking really, really long term, and realized that incorporating men into their 'religion' might allow for the restoration of the godswoods. 

To be clear, I am not attempting to argue about the "best" interpretation of the Age of Heroes, as I find the potential too multitudinous and the legends too sparse (plus, it is my preference to pursue open questions from as many angles as possible)--I was only pointing out that I think some of your criticisms do not speak to BC's theories accurately, at least as I understand them.

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11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't think I am missing the argument at all. I'm talking about the Long Night which is older than the Nights King. The Long Night lasted a generation and ended with the building of the Wall. The Nights King was a Lord Commander that ruled the Wall for 13 years and was taken down by his brother. I was talking about the former - the Long Night which is when the white walkers overran Westeros. The Last Hero was likely a Stark, and for helping defeat winter he was able to establish Winterfell in Children territory.

But, assuming that the last hero was a Stark, what was the price paid for turning back Winter and their setting up in Winterfell. Was it adherence to the old gods of the wood and everything that went with it?

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10 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Except.... when exactly was the Night’s Watch founded? During the Long Night or after it? I’m pretty sure that there’s nothing that tells us that one way or the other. (Not that I couldn’t be wrong about that.) If it was created during the Long Night, it might not have taken very long to reach the 13th LC. Not to mention that with all of those 13s together, I’m going to guess that it’s more meant as a significant number rather than an actual one. Is there anyway to guarantee that the Night’s King did not in fact rule during the Long Night? If that’s the case, it could have been the Last Hero and the remaining Starks that overthrew him and at the same time ended the Long Night, making the Starks both villain and hero. Because honestly, we don’t know for sure what the original purpose of the wall was meant to be, or even why the Wildlings wound up on the other side. The original purpose might well be lost to time. Currently in the story it shuts the Wildlings out, but that might be completely unrelated to its original purpose. 

:agree:

And thank you also tp Matthew for his excellent summary.

Its also worth recalling this SSM:

Oh, and he did mention that he put lots of legends into the books such as Bran the Builder. Bran the builder is supposed to have built the Wall, Winterfell, and Storms End. GRRM mentioned that he has become a legend so that people will look at a structure and say "wow, it must have been built by Bran the Builder" when it actually was not. This is GRRM's attempt on creating a world with myths and legends so if at some point you see, "They say it was built by Bran the Builder or Lann the Clever" realize that its part of the mythos.

If time is permiting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

That last line rather sums it up; we're dealing with legends not history [reinforced by Hoster Blackwood's Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.] and those legends are full of contradictions, which we're trying to resolve,

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10 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Well there is Symeon Star-Eyes who sees Hellhounds at the Nightfort. He is supposed to be a legendary hero during the age of heroes and if the heroes are the twelve companions who travel with the last hero - they die.  So the Nightfort must be older than the Last Hero searching for the children. 

If the legend is true and he is indeed one of the companions.

Ah you mean Symeon who got "eyes blue as stars"?

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10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the story of the Nights King just muddies up the reader's comprehension of the Long Night. Sounds like many associate the two together when the two events are supposed to be years apart. BC seems to think the LC's are in charge for an average of 8 years each, so if he's the 13th LC then it's been over a hundred years since the LN ended...

The reason why the NK was overthrown was because he was doing something that the Others were guilty of doing a hundred or more years before: sacrificing Children...and I mean capital C Children of the Forest. Recall the Nights Watch don't marry or bear children, so the only children being sacrificed were Children.

As to the Lords Commander I'm don't actually believe that at all. What I do point out is that when it comes to the Nights Watch Legends we have a supposed 998 commanders of an organisation supposedly going back, 8,000 years. That's where the figure comes from and I don't believe either the date or the number of commanders.

As to the children sacrificed to the Others, all that Old Nan says is that  After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. We tend to assume that they were doing a Craster and that's the reason for the ban on the present Watch fathering any children, but there's absolutely nothing, anywhere in the Nights King story to remotely suggest that Tree Huggers rather than human children [or sheep for that matter] were being offered up
 

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26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah you mean Symeon who got "eyes blue as stars"?

Maybe he has eyes blue as stars as the singers say. I don't know. I mean the guy called Symeon Star-Eyes by multiple sources. Not the singers' tale. And I assume he was one of the companions of the last hero. 

 

"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart." Bran VII aGOT

Bran wasn't so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan's scariest stories. It was here that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark. - Bran IV  aSOS

You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ." - Sam I 

The only thing I can possibly read out of this that isn't there and hasn't been mentioned yet is, that the three names Sam mentioned were actual commanders of the NW in that order or another.  And yes, being blind and seeing things were mentioned by Sam in the same sentence. So opened third eye ? greenseer ?

 

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54 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe he has eyes blue as stars as the singers say. I don't know. I mean the guy called Symeon Star-Eyes by multiple sources. Not the singers' tale. And I assume he was one of the companions of the last hero. 

 

"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." ... And yes, being blind and seeing things were mentioned by Sam in the same sentence. So opened third eye ? greenseer ?

 

“There was a knight once who couldn’t see,” Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. “Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once.”
“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. 

A third eye aint necessary if he went out with two regular ones and came back with starry blue ones

”What colour are their eyes?” he asked her.

“Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.”


 

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13 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Maybe. But the thing is, IF the Watch was formed during the Long Night, and IF the Others “swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain,” then I’m not sure how well that average life span of eight years might hold up under the circumstances. I’d imagine that there might, in fact, be a whole lot of untimely deaths around that time. Not to mention, think about the logic of the whole thing. A bare century after a nearly cataclysmic event some guy gets the idea to start the whole thing over again? Meanwhile after that nobody else bothers to do it for another 8,000 years? It just doesn’t make sense. 

And as for saying that the Nights King was sacrificing children and it had to be CotF because the Watch doesn’t marry, isn’t his Queen the one who supposedly got him in this mess to begin with? He could have been sacrificing his own children with her. I’m just not certain it’s as cut and dry as you’re making it sound. I don’t disagree that Duran Godsgrief was working some sort of magic, nor the Grey King. (Especially him with the whole burning tree thing.) I just don’t think that they were the only ones. Not to mention that there are “things in the water” that we have yet to account for. 

HEY! Good morning all! Thanks for putting up with me and my stubborn assertions. :D I'd like to hope that I'm jarring Heresy out of the rut of traditional thought - if traditional is a thing on Heresy. I just see the story in a new way since the discussion of Harren the Black.

Lets theorize for a bit and insert the Ironborn as the Others - a sub-sect of the First Men that were especially problematic like the Boltons were later on. I like to work in bullet points or outlines to clarify thoughts, so here goes:

Durran and the Grey King seem to be likely candidates for the very first worker(s) of ice magic. Elenei was either the magic itself, created by blood sacrifice and a product of marrying the sea god to the goddess of the wind, or she was at the same time a priestess like Melisandre. In this sense Elenei could have birthed the very first white shadow like Melisandre birthed the black shadow - both at Storms End.

I propose Durran and the Grey King may have been the same person. Through the sacrifice of his guests Durran could have turned into a grey icy white walker himself, and his creation of an army over the thousand years of his terrible reign spread far and wide.

Alternate scenerio - the Grey King could have been the Nights King - a theory I like better, because his descent into the sea to join the Drowned God would tie in nicely with the Black Gate. Durran, therefore would be the first instance of the white walkers and the Grey King the second, just a few hundred years later. 

The building of the Wall and the spells used to contain magic should have taken hundreds if not a thousand years to build. That might be one explanation as to why the Nights King occurred only a short hundred years after the Long Night ended. Once the ice magic was sealed with wards then it would be harder to work the ice magic until the warding is removed by Euron. We don't know where Euron was until he "suddenly" showed up at the Iron Islands. It would be a short voyage to sail from the north of Westeros to the Iron Islands. 

Once the seal was broken on the ward holding magic back - the wilding were free to hunt for Children, create a handful of white walkers, and burn the remains of the Children and throw them into the tree at Whitetree - an act which seems mocking to me. The "things in the water" also seem connected the the Ironborn.

 

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

...snip...

The way in which the NK's tale is presented suggests the possibility that there may have still been Others present to which one might sacrifice, that there was a "Night's Queen" that possessed qualities that might be associated with the wights and the white walkers--in short, that there may have been a period following the LN where the Others might still be encountered on occasion. It is during this period, presumably, that one might speculate that there was an association between the Kings of Winter and the Others.
 

...snip....

To be clear, I am not attempting to argue about the "best" interpretation of the Age of Heroes, as I find the potential too multitudinous and the legends too sparse (plus, it is my preference to pursue open questions from as many angles as possible)--I was only pointing out that I think some of your criticisms do not speak to BC's theories accurately, at least as I understand them.

The Nights Queen was likely a priestess - the ice version of Melisandre. The 13th Lord Commander would need a priestess to "give birth" to magic again, but it doesn't necessarily have to mean they had sex and gave birth to an actual baby. It could be read more symbolic than that.

I think it's sweet you're sticking up for BC ;)  but he's quite capable of defending himself. :)

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

But, assuming that the last hero was a Stark, what was the price paid for turning back Winter and their setting up in Winterfell. Was it adherence to the old gods of the wood and everything that went with it?

Why would there have to be a price to pay? If we presume the Starks were holding fast to the Pact and the Children were also, then working together was in both of their interests. If anything the Children could have instilled the gift of skinchanging into the Stark genes as a way to use his dead companions who should have been wights by this point. The iron swords on the Stark crypts are to insure they don't rise as wights should another Long Night come, but then all the dead rise as wights - not just Starks.

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the Lords Commander I'm don't actually believe that at all. What I do point out is that when it comes to the Nights Watch Legends we have a supposed 998 commanders of an organisation supposedly going back, 8,000 years. That's where the figure comes from and I don't believe either the date or the number of commanders.

As to the children sacrificed to the Others, all that Old Nan says is that  After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. We tend to assume that they were doing a Craster and that's the reason for the ban on the present Watch fathering any children, but there's absolutely nothing, anywhere in the Nights King story to remotely suggest that Tree Huggers rather than human children [or sheep for that matter] were being offered up
 

The math seems screwy to me. Sure 8000 divided by 998 = 8, but it doesn't seem right to equate 8 with 8 years, but I never was very good at math.  :blink: 

I stand corrected regarding my insertion of children/Children. Craster is a red herring, but one that is meant to make us think of "children". Same thing with the Watch not fathering any children....it's all a mindf*ck to put "children" in our heads! :lol:

 

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe he has eyes blue as stars as the singers say. I don't know. I mean the guy called Symeon Star-Eyes by multiple sources. Not the singers' tale. And I assume he was one of the companions of the last hero. 

 

"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart." Bran VII aGOT

Bran wasn't so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan's scariest stories. It was here that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark. - Bran IV  aSOS

You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ." - Sam I 

The only thing I can possibly read out of this that isn't there and hasn't been mentioned yet is, that the three names Sam mentioned were actual commanders of the NW in that order or another.  And yes, being blind and seeing things were mentioned by Sam in the same sentence. So opened third eye ? greenseer ?

 

I agree that if he lost his eyes he'd have to rely on other senses, including a third eye, to be as skilled as he was and to "see" the hellhounds fighting.

If we utilize the 8 years per LC, then 674 commanders is about 2608 years after the Wall was built, right? (someone check my math)

Of what benefit would it be to wipe out the records of the Nights King? If they didn't want it to happen again they should have kept meticulous records.

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15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

The math seems screwy to me. Sure 8000 divided by 998 = 8, but it doesn't seem right to equate 8 with 8 years, but I never was very good at math.  :blink: 

 

Anent the arithmetic its straightforward enough in theory, but what we don't know is whether the Lord Commander always served for life or whether in the earlies he might have served for a year and a day... At all events I'd still reckon it to be academic since I believe neither the dates for the accuracy of the king lists.

But with that, its time to move on to Heresy 206 - see you over there

 

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