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Heresy 205 bats and little green men


Black Crow

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3 hours ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

My impression was that the dragons communicate to Dany through their actions and instincts rather than through literal words, in a similar way to how Ghost communicates with Jon outside of warging. So, essentially, Quaithe is telling Dany to play close attention to her dragons and trust their instincts above all, which she hasn't done since coming to Meereen. It's not like they're going to give clear answers, but a general sense can be found.

It's anybody's guess as to what's stopping Quaithe from talking like a real person with real information, though. Maybe it's a Ghost of High Heart situation where she's simply giving the information as she's received it without interpretation. Maybe she's heard about what a mess of things that red woman up in Westeros is making by trying to make prophecy too literal and specific. Who knows.

If, in default of a better explanation Quaithe is indeed communicating via the glass candles, the quality of her messaging may be a reflection of the medium - rather like say explaining stuff by telegram.

As for the dragons, assuming that its the beasties which are referenced rather than any surviving Targaryens or other Valyrian adepts, then it may depend on who's really in charge, but in either event I think that any significant communication would come through dragon dreams.

Edit: welcome to Heresy by the way :commie:

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1 hour ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

So, essentially, Quaithe is telling Dany to play close attention to her dragons and trust their instincts above all, which she hasn't done since coming to Meereen. It's not like they're going to give clear answers, but a general sense can be found.

I suspect this is right, and one can even see this idea playing out in the HotU, where Drogon leads Dany away from the Undying's room of temptation to their true chamber, and later destroys their heart. At one point, Quaithe tells Dany to "remember the Undying" before delivering the warning to beware the perfumed seneschal--it may be that she is not telling Dany to remember the prophecies, but to remember that the dragons steer her true.

One can also see parallels of this with the direwolves, such as when Grey Wind is freaking out as Robb enters the Twins, or when Ghost refuses to pass the Ringfort at the Fist of the First Men.

 

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15 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes, I think this:

Is probably closely related to this:

I think you're right about this.  So Quaithe is not thinking in political terms -- that Dany is a Targaryen, or that she is a candidate to inherit the Iron Throne, or anything along these lines.

This is also evident in her remark

Because whatever Dany's dragons know, I think we can safely say it's not politics.

I've been beating this drum for a while, but I think this comment

Quote

"Remember who you are Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice.  "The dragons know, do you?"

harkens back to the idea that Dany's memory of her lemon tree points to the possibility that she has been given false information about her true identity.

In other words, Dany is not the daughter of Rahella and Aerys.  Instead she was a very young child probably in Dorne, plucked from Dorne and brought to Braavos at a very young age to pose as Viserys' true born sister, so she can later be used as currency to enable Viserys to purchase an army through a marriage contract.  Which in fact is what happens. 

My thought is that Dany is a bastard child (perhaps a bastard of Aerys with another), and perhaps through happenstance or intentional manipulation her conception brought back the Targaryen bloodlines that broke off from the main branch.  Meaning that Dany by not being "trueborn" has a bloodline more closely mirroring the bloodlines of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters.

In other words, the dragons can sense her "pure" dragonlord bloodline brought about from illegitimacy.  So while it may turn out that Dany doesn't have a "political" claim to the throne, she has a genetic claim to being a dragon lord which her more direct  and "legitimate" Targaryen ancestors had lost over the years.

And it appears that Quaithe knows about Dany's true origins.

Another poster in another message board "Some Pig No Doubt", came up with the possibility that Dany's memory of the house with a Red Door might in fact be a memory of a large house with a red lamp over the door, in other words a brothel. 

 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

If, in default of a better explanation Quaithe is indeed communicating via the glass candles, the quality of her messaging may be a reflection of the medium - rather like say explaining stuff by telegram.

As for the dragons, assuming that its the beasties which are referenced rather than any surviving Targaryens or other Valurian adepts, then it may depend on who's really in charge, but in either event I think that any significant communication would come through dragon dreams.

Edit: welcome to Heresy by the way :commie:

I hadn't considered the glass candle angle! That's definitely a possibility, if they always communicate something closer to dream images than, like, hologram messages. It'll be interesting to learn more about how exactly they transmit information if we ever get more of Sam at the Citadel, and it's definitely a thing we need to know to understand Quaithe and Euron both. 

The dragondreams are interesting too, because they don't necessitate dragons in the lizard sense, but rather the dragonsblood - Shireen maybe/probably gets a dragondream predicting her burning in the form of being eaten by dragons, and they turn up in that one drunk guy whose name I can't remember in Dunk and Egg too. This complicates things, because if dragons refers to those who have dragonsblood, then that's potentially a whole lot of people who know Dany better than she knows herself, it seems.

And thank you for the welcome! :)

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I suspect this is right, and one can even see this idea playing out in the HotU, where Drogon leads Dany away from the Undying's room of temptation to their true chamber, and later destroys their heart. At one point, Quaithe tells Dany to "remember the Undying" before delivering the warning to beware the perfumed seneschal--it may be that she is not telling Dany to remember the prophecies, but to remember that the dragons steer her true.

One can also see parallels of this with the direwolves, such as when Grey Wind is freaking out as Robb enters the Twins, or when Ghost refuses to pass the Ringfort at the Fist of the First Men.

 

Yes, the direwolf comparison was on my mind. It's my belief that the blood rituals connecting dragonlord families to their dragons aren't that different to whatever the Starks/proto-Starks did to be so connected with direwolves - that is, if dragons as fire made flesh exist outside of being manmade in the first place - but that's maybe a bit outside the scope of this thread. Regardless, I do think the experience of Drogon as guide as he was in the House should be a very important goal for Dany to recreate with all her dragons, if she's ever going to get out of this rut she's in regarding her identity and their relationship to her.

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The dragons are not the parallel to direwolves. They are fire made flesh, so their parallel are the white walkers that are made of ice. White walkers are created using blood sacrifice, while dragons are hatched through fire sacrifice. Direwolves are neither ice made flesh, nor are they created via sacrifice. I know it's tempting to talk about bonds, because direwolves bond with humans, but I don't believe dragons can be bonded to living humans. Presumably they can be controlled by dragonhorns, but that remains to be seen. Likewise we're told there's a horn of Joramun, which we presume can control white walkers. IMO we need to view dragons very differently than direwolves. We need to keep in mind that they are opposite white walkers, and therefore living shadows of the people that were sacrificed to give them life.

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Hmmm. You make a pretty good point - there's a lot of hints that dragons are essentially magical/elemental constructs rather than real animals. But if you don't believe that dragons bond, what's your take on dragondreams? They seem to exclusively affect people of Targaryen bloodline as far as we see, which I assumed was because the Targs are the only living dragonlord bloodline.

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15 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

Hmmm. You make a pretty good point - there's a lot of hints that dragons are essentially magical/elemental constructs rather than real animals.

Even Dany thinks so.  "… but behind them was only earth and stone. Can dragons tunnel through rock, like the firewyrms of old Valyria? She hoped not." aDWD  - Dany VIII

 

15 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

 which I assumed was because the Targs are the only living dragonlord bloodline.

There are some Valyrion bloodlines in Westeros. The most prominent would be House Velaryon.

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7 hours ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

Hmmm. You make a pretty good point - there's a lot of hints that dragons are essentially magical/elemental constructs rather than real animals. But if you don't believe that dragons bond, what's your take on dragondreams? They seem to exclusively affect people of Targaryen bloodline as far as we see, which I assumed was because the Targs are the only living dragonlord bloodline.

Maybe the dreams aren't coming from the dragons?

Before I propose an alternative, lets talk about greenseers and the ability to enter human dreams. The 3EC (or was it a raven?) came to Bran in a dream, and Bran came to Jon in a dream while Jon was dreaming about being Ghost. Therefore I think there must be an equivalent "dream traveler" on the fire side speaking to Dany while she sleeps.

This is a story of opposites. White and black. Sun and moon. Ice and Fire. That means there must be a greenseer equivalent on the fire side only inverted (mirrored) and for the sake of clarity I'm going to call it a "seer". Also, if greenseers are underground and under weirwoods, then I would expect the fire side seer to be above ground which begs the question - what is the opposite of a weirwood? The greenseer uses the weirwood to "see" the past, present, and future, so the opposite would be the glass candles, because they are also used to see the past, present, and future.

Edited to add: I propose that the opposite of of the Children's underground cave, earth and water is the sky or in the air, and that the seer is Euron who is by all appearances Bloodraven's mirror.

According to the Dothraki when humans die their spirits rise up into the air and ride across the sky into the heavenly godhead so to speak, which fits as the mirrored opposite to the Children's spirits joining the godhead of earth and water.

 
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It isn't the weirwood tree that the greenseer draws it's power from, although they do see through the weirwood network. The greenseer draws power from the earth, water, and stone. 

The glass candles are the opposite of the weirwood trees, because this is the method the opposing seer would see. And their opposite power source is the sky, air/wind, and storm.

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Sorry guys - but on the drive home from work my head nearly exploded with ideas. :wideeyed:  

I had some additional thoughts regarding the Reed's Creed. I propose that Ice magic is human magic while Fire magic is Children of the Forest magic. Hear me out, because this will make sense by the time I get to the end.

If you've followed Heresy for awhile you may recall a discussion of Craster and how he's a "red herring", salted kippers and all that. If anyone has a link to that discussion, please post it. Anyways...Craster IS a "red herring", because it's not HIS children, but "Children" as in Children of the Forest that were sacrificed to create white walkers. This is also why the Children's cave is warded. It's not to keep Bran in, but to keep out any humans trying to abduct one of the Children to be sacrificed to make a white walker.

Ice Magic = magic worked by humans, creating white walkers by sacrificing Children, and drawing on powers of sky, wind, and storm.

Fire Magic = magic worked by Children, creating dragons by sacrificing humans, and drawing on powers of earth, water, and stone.

Weirwoods = a tool used by greenseer of the Children of the Forest to see past, present, and future.

Glass Candles = a tool used by human seers to see past, present, and future. Flames are just a type of candle.

3-eyed Raven = Bloodraven. Up next: Bran. Can manipulate people by coming to them in dreams. Will try to control the human-made white walkers.

3-eyed Crow = Euron. Others: perhaps Marwyn and/or Quaithe. Can manipulate people by coming to them in dreams. Will try to control the Children-made dragons.

Lets put this all together now:

Ice = Humans-White Walkers-Glass Candles-Bronze and Iron

Fire = Children of the Forest-Dragons-Weirwoods-Earth and Water

Each side is trying to intervene or control the other side. The people behind the glass candles are trying to intervene or control the Children-made dragons. The Children brought Bran to take over for Bloodraven so that he can use the weirwoods to try and intervene or control the human-made white walkers.

 

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13 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Even Dany thinks so.  "… but behind them was only earth and stone. Can dragons tunnel through rock, like the firewyrms of old Valyria? She hoped not." aDWD  - Dany VIII

 

There are some Valyrion bloodlines in Westeros. The most prominent would be House Velaryon.

Yes, but not all Valyrians are dragonlords, or half the population of Lys would also be dragonlords. As far as I know, neither House Velaryon nor House Celtigar (or the Daynes, if that's where their mysterious purple eyes come from) have had dragons that we know of? I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Targaryens are the last specifically dragonlord bloodline, unless other dragonlords also escaped the Doom.

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe the dreams aren't coming from the dragons?

Before I propose an alternative, lets talk about greenseers and the ability to enter human dreams. The 3EC (or was it a raven?) came to Bran in a dream, and Bran came to Jon in a dream while Jon was dreaming about being Ghost. Therefore I think there must be an equivalent "dream traveler" on the fire side speaking to Dany while she sleeps.

This is a story of opposites. White and black. Sun and moon. Ice and Fire. That means there must be a greenseer equivalent on the fire side only inverted (mirrored) and for the sake of clarity I'm going to call it a "seer". Also, if greenseers are underground and under weirwoods, then I would expect the fire side seer to be above ground which begs the question - what is the opposite of a weirwood? The greenseer uses the weirwood to "see" the past, present, and future, so the opposite would be the glass candles, because they are also used to see the past, present, and future.

Edited to add: I propose that the opposite of of the Children's underground cave, earth and water is the sky or in the air, and that the seer is Euron who is by all appearances Bloodraven's mirror.

According to the Dothraki when humans die their spirits rise up into the air and ride across the sky into the heavenly godhead so to speak, which fits as the mirrored opposite to the Children's spirits joining the godhead of earth and water.

 

There's also the shade of the evening tree, which has opposite colouring to the weirwood and is basically magic LSD. I'm hesitant to draw a parallel between the 3EC's methods and glass candles though, because I think (I'm not 100% on timelines though - is there still magic in Dunk & Egg? There are dragondreams, but no dragons.) dragondreams have existed during the time in which glass candles have stopped working.

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Ice Magic = magic worked by humans, creating white walkers by sacrificing Children, and drawing on powers of sky, wind, and storm.

Fire Magic = magic worked by Children, creating dragons by sacrificing humans, and drawing on powers of earth, water, and stone.

What implications does this have for Ironborn theology? While they're descendants of the First Men with very little Andal and probably no Valyrian blood and thus possibly connected that way to ice magic, there's human sacrifice, the deification of water and a religious antagonism towards storms. Also, this would make an interesting lens to view the story of the creation of Storm's End through.

I'm not entirely certain about contrasting water and ice, or air and fire, though. I am just a humble idiot with no real skills in analysis, but still this seems counterintuitive. Could you please explain those further?

It's also worth mentioning that the Children's exclusive use of caves seems like a relatively recent development. Old Nan says that the Children also lived in 'wooden cities' in the Long Night.

 

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18 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

 As far as I know, neither House Velaryon [...] have had dragons that we know of?

I have to research the current line of House Velaryon. But the house itself had dragons. With all their Targaryen blood it is complicated however. And even more complicated with the dead of the last dragon in 150 AC.

Velaryon is simply too Targaryen to make any conclusion if only house Targaryen bloodline has them. 

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22 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I have to research the current line of House Velaryon. But the house itself had dragons. With all their Targaryen blood it is complicated however. And even more complicated with the dead of the last dragon in 150 AC.

Velaryon is simply too Targaryen to make any conclusion if only house Targaryen bloodline has them. 

I can't see any mention of Velaryon dragonriders other than Rhaenys, who was a Targaryen by birth; Rhaenyra's children with Laenor, who were probably fathered by Harwin Strong; and Addam, who was adopted and is assumed to have dragonsblood.

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4 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

There's also the shade of the evening tree, which has opposite colouring to the weirwood and is basically magic LSD. I'm hesitant to draw a parallel between the 3EC's methods and glass candles though, because I think (I'm not 100% on timelines though - is there still magic in Dunk & Egg? There are dragondreams, but no dragons.) dragondreams have existed during the time in which glass candles have stopped working.

Yes, I am aware of the black barked tree that shade of the evening is made from and it may even be the same tree as the Ironwood. It's been used by humans just like weirwoods are used by Children, but the trees themselves aren't where the two godheads lie. The Children say when they die their spirits go into the earth, stone, and streams to join the godhead, and the opposite of this would be a godhead in the heavens. A paste made from the weirwood seeds allows the greenseer to see through the trees, so even though it remains to be seen I suspect the shade of the evening drink made from the other tree makes it possible for the seers to see via glass candles and even flames. 

4 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

What implications does this have for Ironborn theology? While they're descendants of the First Men with very little Andal and probably no Valyrian blood and thus possibly connected that way to ice magic, there's human sacrifice, the deification of water and a religious antagonism towards storms. Also, this would make an interesting lens to view the story of the creation of Storm's End through.

The Ironborn recognize two gods: the Drowned God which is their holy god, and the Storm God which is like their devil. The "righteous" Ironborn only worship the Drowned God just like Christians worship God, but they believe the Storm God has powers just like the devil. 

The ancient history of Durran Godsgrief is likely a symbolic story of how the First Men were able to work magic. Durran married Elenei who was herself a diety and daughter to the sea god (Drowned God) and goddess of the wind (Storm God). Elenei had to give up her diety to live a mortal life. This has echoes of the Bael the Bard story with a kidnapped daughter and resulting child, and in Lyanna's case she lost her mortal life.

5 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

I'm not entirely certain about contrasting water and ice, or air and fire, though. I am just a humble idiot with no real skills in analysis, but still this seems counterintuitive. Could you please explain those further?

I'm referring to what is commonly referred to as the Reed's Creed:

“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.”

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green. 

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said. 

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.

The Ironborn seers are taking the water of their Drowned God and marrying it with the air of their devil Storm God to get their Elenei - a magic maiden...which also calls to mind the Nights King spying the pale, beautiful Other.

I'm contrasting the elements to show how both Children and humans have worked and abused magic.

5 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

It's also worth mentioning that the Children's exclusive use of caves seems like a relatively recent development. Old Nan says that the Children also lived in 'wooden cities' in the Long Night.

I had proposed upthread that the Children didn't move from their "wooden cities"- which were the weirwood forests - until Harren the Black cut down forests of weirwoods to build Harrenhal. That's only 300 years ago, but I presume even then their greenseers were under ground and under weirwoods as evidenced by the caves the Brotherhood Without Banners hides in. Beric Dondarrion sat in an old weirwood throne and used it to find the locations of their targets. Thoros used fire to resurrect Beric seven times over, because fire is the tool used to work the same magic as the Children of the Forest.

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26 minutes ago, Melony Bloodstar said:

I can't see any mention of Velaryon dragonriders other than Rhaenys, who was a Targaryen by birth; Rhaenyra's children with Laenor, who were probably fathered by Harwin Strong; and Addam, who was adopted and is assumed to have dragonsblood.

Wait, did you just find our Harrenhal - Targaryen - bat connection ?

To the dragons: We only know of 29 dragons so far, Dany's included. And yes, I would count Addam as he has a Velaryon father and not a Targ mother like the others. And also because his brother (with the same mother) Alyn took over house Velaryon. Of course the claim could be false and the father was actually a Targ. But this matters not for our discussion. Plus Alyn married another dragon rider - Baela. 

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17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The dragons are not the parallel to direwolves. They are fire made flesh, so their parallel are the white walkers that are made of ice. White walkers are created using blood sacrifice, while dragons are hatched through fire sacrifice. Direwolves are neither ice made flesh, nor are they created via sacrifice. I know it's tempting to talk about bonds, because direwolves bond with humans, but I don't believe dragons can be bonded to living humans. Presumably they can be controlled by dragonhorns, but that remains to be seen. Likewise we're told there's a horn of Joramun, which we presume can control white walkers. IMO we need to view dragons very differently than direwolves. We need to keep in mind that they are opposite white walkers, and therefore living shadows of the people that were sacrificed to give them life.

I’m not quite sure it’s as simple as that.  Of course we don’t exactly know what the White Walkers are but they do not appear to be biological.  The way the one WW dissipated when Sam stabbed it makes me believe they are made either of frozen water or/and air.  Dragons do appear to be biological, in that they reproduce and leave behind an actual corpse when they die.

But I do agree that both are somewhat analogous in that they both may require a human sacrifice for their creation/birth.  But it may not be as simple as blood sacrifice for the White Walkers vs Fire sacrifice for the dragons.  Remember, prior to Dany’s dragons birth, there was a significant blood magic sacrifice which may have claimed the life of Dany’s unborn child.  And the dragon eggs’ were in the tent during the ritual.   

And while we don’t know of the exact mechanism in the creation of the White Walkers I do find it interesting that their were human bones in ash in the Weirwood’s maw at Whitetree, implying that there was a sacrifice through fire at work up North.

Both beings may require a transfer of consciousness/shadow for their creation, and I wonder if GRRM is influenced by the Hindu belief in cremation.  That it requires the destruction of the body by fire to release the spirit or soul to take up a second life.

We also don’t know if the White Walkers are truly independent creatures, or if they are being controlled by others.  I would note that Bran comes across Children seated in Weirwood nests in Bloodraven’s cave.  Perhaps they are acting as the puppeteers.  

While the dragons do seem to be their own creatures, and while they do not require a bond with another, in some instances they do appear to have developed some type of psychic bond’s with a specific human, not unlike what we’ve seen with Skinchangers and their totem.

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This might fit in here. I've been thinking on Azor Ahai . 

The general assumption is that AA fought and defeated the Others with Lightbringer . Yet , the red priests dosen't talk about the Others. Mel didn't care until the letter from CB , Moqorro is concerned about Euron and Benerro talks about the Dark eye which sounds like Euron. 

The AA prophecy talks about " the cold breath of darkness" but nothing about the Others and winter. 

It makes sense that Asshai a city in darkness will talk about a champion of light. 

I'm thinking that AA had nothing to do with Westeros and the Others but rather fought some shit around Asshai. 

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43 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

’m not quite sure it’s as simple as that.  Of course we don’t exactly know what the White Walkers are but they do not appear to be biological.  The way the one WW dissipated when Sam stabbed it makes me believe they are made either of frozen water or/and air.  Dragons do appear to be biological, in that they reproduce and leave behind an actual corpse when they die.

 

They ARE made of water and air. The Ironborn/wildlings are marrying their sea god (Drowned God) with the goddess of the wind (Storm God) to get their magic Elenei.

 

43 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But I do agree that both are somewhat analogous in that they both may require a human sacrifice for their creation/birth.  But it may not be as simple as blood sacrifice for the White Walkers vs Fire sacrifice for the dragons.  Remember, prior to Dany’s dragons birth, there was a significant blood magic sacrifice which may have claimed the life of Dany’s unborn child.  And the dragon eggs’ were in the tent during the ritual.   

 

Dany's unborn child went into Drogo, and Drogo and Mirri were burned to hatch the eggs.

 

43 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And while we don’t know of the exact mechanism in the creation of the White Walkers I do find it interesting that their were human bones in ash in the Weirwood’s maw at Whitetree, implying that there was a sacrifice through fire at work up North.

The bones in the tree were small like those of children, but I propose that they were bones of Children of the Forest. The wildlings are sacrificing Children to work their magic. Afterwards they are burning the corpses so that they don't rise as wights. Burning is a counter to their human ice magic - a stabilizer so to speak.

43 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

While the dragons do seem to be their own creatures, and while they do not require a bond with another, in some instances they do appear to have developed some type of psychic bond’s with a specific human, not unlike what we’ve seen with Skinchangers and their totem.

The dragons may lay eggs, but they cannot hatch without human sacrifice, and I doubt very much that dragons are bonded to any one person, because Balerion had several different riders over the years. Dragons are controlled by horns.

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When Durran got his Elenei - it cost him the lives of his family and guests. I'm thinking Durran sacrificed his "guests" which were Children of the Forest, and then they retaliated by killing his family. 

This is why the old gods hold guest right with such importance. Their ancestors were guests of Durran, but he killed them all to gain the power of magic.

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