Heresy 205 bats and little green men

[Black Crow]

As to Craster; he's not sacrificing Children/Tree-huggers, but very specifically not his children but his sons - see my signature block, and whatever the mechanism and outcome, it is his sons who are carried outside when the cold winds are rising.

As to the white walkers, its worth reminding ourselves of these SSMs:

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

and 

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:47 PM

In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

They ARE made of water and air. The Ironborn/wildlings are marrying their sea god (Drowned God) with the goddess of the wind (Storm God) to get their magic Elenei.

 

 

Dany's unborn child went into Drogo, and Drogo and Mirri were burned to hatch the eggs.

 

The bones in the tree were small like those of children, but I propose that they were bones of Children of the Forest. The wildlings are sacrificing Children to work their magic. Afterwards they are burning the corpses so that they don't rise as wights. Burning is a counter to their human ice magic - a stabilizer so to speak.

The dragons may lay eggs, but they cannot hatch without human sacrifice, and I doubt very much that dragons are bonded to any one person, because Balerion had several different riders over the years. Dragons are controlled by horns.

I do like the comparison to Elenei.  And perhaps like their union, the creation of the White Walkers will herald a devastating storm.

From what I recall in one of Bran's chapters the bones of the COTF were distinguishable from human bones, or at least recognizable as bones of COTF.  And the fact that the Rangers seemed to believe that it was a human skull makes me believe that it was the bones of a human child.

We also don't know that dragon eggs require a human sacrifice to hatch.  We know that Dany's eggs probably did, but Dany's eggs were not normal dragon eggs.  They were fossilized.  So the human sacrifice might have been necessary to "wake the dragons from stone".  But there is a decent argument that dragon eggs may need some additional magic to hatch as opposed to a normal animal.  Otherwise, it seems that the planet might be infested with wild dragons like Cannibal.  So something is definitely controlling their birth rate.

ETA:  I'm also not sure that dragon horns are required to control the dragons.  I don't remember any reference to dragon horns in any of the short stories George wrote concerning the Dance and the time of Maegor.  I wonder if the dragon horns are required in the absence of a dragonlord with the proper genetic makeup.

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We also don't know that dragon eggs require a human sacrifice to hatch.  We know that Dany's eggs probably did, but Dany's eggs were not normal dragon eggs.  They were fossilized.  So the human sacrifice might have been necessary to "wake the dragons from stone".  But there is a decent argument that dragon eggs may need some additional magic to hatch as opposed to a normal animal.  Otherwise, it seems that the planet might be infested with wild dragons like Cannibal.  So something is definitely controlling their birth rate.

Some kind of magical rite or combination of factors was certainly necessary to hatch Danaerys' beasties, which may or may not have required human sacrifice, but whatever that combination and whatever the blood, it was a magical event which the dragons themselves could not accomplish

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

From what I recall in one of Bran's chapters the bones of the COTF were distinguishable from human bones, or at least recognizable as bones of COTF.  And the fact that the Rangers seemed to believe that it was a human skull makes me believe that it was the bones of a human child.

Well there is the mystery of Craster's missing sons, but I don't believe they're being used for white walkers, but they might be being used to try and wake that dragon egg Euron claims he threw overboard. Human sacrifice is necessary to wake a dragon from stone, like you say, and the remains were burned.

23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

We also don't know that dragon eggs require a human sacrifice to hatch.  We know that Dany's eggs probably did, but Dany's eggs were not normal dragon eggs.  They were fossilized.  So the human sacrifice might have been necessary to "wake the dragons from stone".  But there is a decent argument that dragon eggs may need some additional magic to hatch as opposed to a normal animal.  Otherwise, it seems that the planet might be infested with wild dragons like Cannibal.  So something is definitely controlling their birth rate.

The Targaryens either didn't know or forgot how to hatch dragons, thus their many experiments. And they tried placing eggs with each royal in hopes of hatching and bonding with their eggs, but nothing seemed to work.

[Black Crow]

Craster seems to have been giving up his sons for years and its the blue-eyed lot who come for them in the white cold - that really doesn't sound like Euron - so very far from the sea. This is about Ice and Fire than whatever their ultimate relationships and allegiance, Craster has a cold smell and the blue-eyed are Ice.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Craster seems to have been giving up his sons for years and its the blue-eyed lot who come for them in the white cold - that really doesn't sound like Euron - so very far from the sea. This is about Ice and Fire than whatever their ultimate relationships and allegiance, Craster has a cold smell and the blue-eyed are Ice.

Euron is far away, but the wildlings are not, and I believe they are of Ironborn descent. They've been digging around up north looking for ways to get free and they may have found some old dragon eggs. They claim to have found a horn, and then claimed it wasn't the horn of Joramun. Maybe it's actually a horn to bind dragons?

[SirArthur]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Euron is far away, but the wildlings are not, and I believe they are of Ironborn descent. They've been digging around up north looking for ways to get free and they may have found some old dragon eggs. 

Isn't the fact that dragon eggs can (as we assume) survive anything (like cold in your idea), the very reason for dragons being golems or animated lifeness (organic) matter ? This would also explain why they need a sacrifice: something literally has to control the body. 

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Isn't the fact that dragon eggs can (as we assume) survive anything (like cold in your idea), the very reason for dragons being golems or animated lifeness (organic) matter ? This would also explain why they need a sacrifice: something literally has to control the body. 

It's stated they are fire made flesh, so they are not animals or anything of organic material. It seems like the spirits of the dead are in the creatures as evidenced by their different colors and personality. Drogon acts like Drogo, and the other two's colors seem to hint at who they are.

Edited to add: And lest we forget - there is the story of the giver of the first Gift to the slaves in the mines of Valyria. All those slaves were likely burned to hatch dragons.

[Black Crow]

7 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Isn't the fact that dragon eggs can (as we assume) survive anything (like cold in your idea), the very reason for dragons being golems or animated lifeness (organic) matter ? This would also explain why they need a sacrifice: something literally has to control the body. 

This is something we've discussed before; the concept that the Targaryens once enjoyed - and yearn to again enjoy - a near limitless second life as Dragons - and that conversely the Starks once enjoyed a near limitless second life as Walkers

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

This is something we've discussed before; the concept that the Targaryens once enjoyed - and yearn to again enjoy - a near limitless second life as Dragons - and that conversely the Starks once enjoyed a near limitless second life as Walkers

I don't believe the Starks were ever white walkers, because I think they were aligned with the Children during the Long Night. If anything their ability as skinchangers is what's important, because they may have skinchanged the dead to fight the Others.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't believe the Starks were ever white walkers, because I think they were aligned with the Children during the Long Night. If anything their ability as skinchangers is what's important, because they may have skinchanged the dead to fight the Others.

Being allied with the tree-huggers is not incompatible with their using their skin-changing ability to enjoy a second life as white walkers. I'm far more inclined to see them gaining the skin-changing and the ability to do so precisely because they aligned themselves with the tree-huggers - until the Lord of Winterfell repudiated those allegiances by overthrowing the knights king and locking his kin in their graves with cold iron.

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Being allied with the tree-huggers is not incompatible with their using their skin-changing ability to enjoy a second life as white walkers. I'm far more inclined to see them gaining the skin-changing and the ability to do so precisely because they aligned themselves with the tree-huggers - until the Lord of Winterfell repudiated those allegiances by overthrowing the knights king and locking his kin in their graves with cold iron.

It would be incompatible if Children were sacrificed in order to create a white walker. Wouldn't it seem sacrilegious? 

If the mirrored inversion theory is true then I would expect the Nights King story to be similar to LC Jon Snow and Ramsay (Snow) Bolton. They're brothers by bastardy with both last names being "Snow", but they're not blood related brothers. Jon Snow was attracted to a wildling woman, Ygritte before he was LC, but he wasn't caught sacrificing Children to the Others. He also allowed the wildlings through the Wall, was the one of the reasons why some of his men rose in mutiny - the last straw being when Jon wanted to team up with the "Others" against his "brother" in Winterfell. It's a reversal of the original story.

 

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I do like the comparison to Elenei.  And perhaps like their union, the creation of the White Walkers will herald a devastating storm.

From what I recall in one of Bran's chapters the bones of the COTF were distinguishable from human bones, or at least recognizable as bones of COTF.  And the fact that the Rangers seemed to believe that it was a human skull makes me believe that it was the bones of a human child.

We also don't know that dragon eggs require a human sacrifice to hatch.  We know that Dany's eggs probably did, but Dany's eggs were not normal dragon eggs.  They were fossilized.  So the human sacrifice might have been necessary to "wake the dragons from stone".  But there is a decent argument that dragon eggs may need some additional magic to hatch as opposed to a normal animal.  Otherwise, it seems that the planet might be infested with wild dragons like Cannibal.  So something is definitely controlling their birth rate.

ETA:  I'm also not sure that dragon horns are required to control the dragons.  I don't remember any reference to dragon horns in any of the short stories George wrote concerning the Dance and the time of Maegor.  I wonder if the dragon horns are required in the absence of a dragonlord with the proper genetic makeup.

My theory is the dragonbinder kills the blower but binds dragons to his blood.  This is why Euron gave it to Victarion.  This also explains why the Targaryans need to keep their blood pure, as we saw with Quentyn, a small amount of dragon blood is not enough.  So long ago, a Targaryan died blowing the horn so his sons, brothers or cousins could bind dragons. 

This also brings up the question whether Dany is bound to every dragon in the world, or only those related to her ancestors' dragons.   Her eggs supposedly came from Assahia,  and would be unrelated to Balerion.  Will Euron be bound to all 3 dragons if Victarion blows the horn?

[Lady Dyanna]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be incompatible if Children were sacrificed in order to create a white walker. Wouldn't it seem sacrilegious? 

What if it isn’t the first life of the CotF that is being sacrificed, but rather their second? Or at least the second life of any CotF greenseer that is wedded to a particular tree? 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be incompatible if Children were sacrificed in order to create a white walker. Wouldn't it seem sacrilegious? 

Except that there's absolutely no evidence anywhere in text that Starks or anybody else have been sacrificing tree-huggers to create walkers

And no, this SSM doesn't imply it either:

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

[SirArthur]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

This is something we've discussed before; the concept that the Targaryens once enjoyed - and yearn to again enjoy - a near limitless second life as Dragons - and that conversely the Starks once enjoyed a near limitless second life as Walkers

That is not what I mean. At least I don't want to fast forward to this point. I was really talking about the Dragon as a organic "machine", rather than a cross breeding between Firewyrm, Wyvern and  whatever lizard they used. 

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

What if it isn’t the first life of the CotF that is being sacrificed, but rather their second? Or at least the second life of any CotF greenseer that is wedded to a particular tree? 

 

Your suggestion is still kind of the same. If there's a spirit of the Children inside the white walker - we're talking about the dead here - if their spirit resides inside or their life was sacrificed to give it form, and keeping in mind that it's implied the Starks are their allies, then I cannot see a Stark wanting to spend their second life inside something that represents the life of their ally.

 

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Except that there's absolutely no evidence anywhere in text that Starks or anybody else have been sacrificing tree-huggers to create walkers

And no, this SSM doesn't imply it either:

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

True, true. I'm basing my theory on subtle suggestions and inversions to how dragons hatch.

[No one is here]

On 2/28/2018 at 1:08 PM, Melony Bloodstar said:

Yes, the direwolf comparison was on my mind. It's my belief that the blood rituals connecting dragonlord families to their dragons aren't that different to whatever the Starks/proto-Starks did to be so connected with direwolves - that is, if dragons as fire made flesh exist outside of being manmade in the first place - but that's maybe a bit outside the scope of this thread. Regardless, I do think the experience of Drogon as guide as he was in the House should be a very important goal for Dany to recreate with all her dragons, if she's ever going to get out of this rut she's in regarding her identity and their relationship to her.

I believe this has happened when Drogon flew Dany out of the Meereen fighting pits.  He was guiding her away..  Similar to when she was in the HotU.    And, I believe that she will heed this and NOT return to Meereen.  I believe that the other 2 dragons will join up with her via some combination of Tyrion, Vic, Moroqo or Benerro.  As I believe that Drogon flying Dany away from Meereen was GRRM's way of breaking up the mess known as the Meereenese Knot.  Or at the very least, the beginning of the untying.

As for Quaithe, I think as readers, we need to be careful trusting her words.  One only needs to look at how unreliable Mel is throughout the series to know that prophecy is a fickle matter.  I believe that, like the other characters that we have seen speak prophecy (Mel, BR, GoHH, Euron, ect.) that she, too, has her own biases and personal motives, not yet revealed.  What I want to know about her most of all is if she is acting alone, or as an agent of someone (something?) else.

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

What if it isn’t the first life of the CotF that is being sacrificed, but rather their second? Or at least the second life of any CotF greenseer that is wedded to a particular tree? 

I don't have my books on me, but a couple of parallels that stood out to me.Plus one other that makes me believe the wws are just a green seer casting his shadow through the medium of ice and snow.

First, in "BR's" cave Bran observed some COTF impaled by roots.In his coma dream he observe another set of dreamers impaled on their ice spires.

Coincidence? I think not.

Fast forward to ADWD prologue we have preceding V6skins death when he was expelled; his moment of being in the clouds, the earthworm etc.

His experience prompted him to say something that shouldn't be overlooked imo.

  " I am the wood and everything in it" 

It is my theory that as long as a greenseer's body is kept alive he can " be the wood and everything in it" 

The Weirwoods have kept BRs' body going until it is becoming nothing but bones.

But I don't think when it comes to the wws that they are sacrificed babies.

I think they are simply the shadow of a greenseer cast in snow and ice and held together by their spell.

No different than what Bran did with Theon...Cast his likeness unto that of the Heart tree.

I also think the issue is the breaking of the lore or cycle of death.These  buggers just can't accept their second life and just fade away like they are suppose to.

They are essentially cheating.

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

 I was really talking about the Dragon as a organic "machine", rather than a cross breeding between Firewyrm, Wyvern and  whatever lizard they used. 

Fire made flesh doesn't really come over as organic, though and I'd agree that in their outward form they are the result of magic rather than eugenics