Black Crow Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 8 hours ago, SirArthur said: That is not what I mean. At least I don't want to fast forward to this point. Ah but its not fast forwarding, because we discussed this in some depth a couple of heresies back. The white walkers we know are created and sustained by magic rather than born, they, as Ser Puddles graphically demonstrated, are Ice made Flesh just as the dragons are Fire made flesh. But why? Is it simply to create totemic killing machines for both Ice and Fire or is there something more? The suggestion - given the links we see between Targaryens and dragons and how these are manifested, not least in the belief that Targaryens can become dragons - is that they provide an immortal or near immortal host. If the same then is true of white walkers then whose souls are they hosting? The most likely answer for a whole host of reasons is the Starks, or at least the early ones - before the Nights King business put an end to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 19 minutes ago, Black Crow said: The suggestion - given the links we see between Targaryens and dragons and how these are manifested, not least in the belief that Targaryens can become dragons - is that they provide an immortal or near immortal host. If the same then is true of white walkers then whose souls are they hosting? The most likely answer for a whole host of reasons is the Starks, or at least the early ones - before the Nights King business put an end to it. That's a (likelyhood) contradiction within the theory. And the reason is threefold: - before the doom of Valyria there were other dragon bloodline houses in Valyria. So at least for the early ones there is no real issue to pinpoint the Stark. The Starks may have been amongst them, but they are no more than a small part much like the Targs were not the only family in Valyria. - after the fall of Valyria we have similar issues. We may discuss Nettle, Targaryen bastards or House Velaryon. But at least after the doom we have the century of blood. Whatever we conclude, dragons seem to prefere the vulcano on Dragonstone for living. This is my weakest argument, as we can not for sure say ,if it was or was not because of the Targaryens. - when Dany woke her dragons, 2 of the three who "became" dragons are not of Targ bloodline: Khal Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur. There is still a Targ taking part. But it is not exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: Your suggestion is still kind of the same. If there's a spirit of the Children inside the white walker - we're talking about the dead here - if their spirit resides inside or their life was sacrificed to give it form, and keeping in mind that it's implied the Starks are their allies, then I cannot see a Stark wanting to spend their second life inside something that represents the life of their ally. Not necessarily. Just because that second life of a CotF is sacrificed as part of a ritual, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they would definitely become part of what was created by the sacrifice. For example, say the spirit of both a person and a CotF were theoretically each tied to the same tree in their second life, what happens when that tree dies? Does it release the spirits? Do the spirits die? Do they go to another tree? Does the same thing happen to a human spirit as what would happen to a CotF? The CotF are happy with the idea of living their second life as part of a tree. Are the humans? Or are they looking for a loophole to get out of that? Have they found it as part of a magical ritual that allows the spirit to be released from the tree and form its own humanoid body out of the frozen sky? Ice made flesh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, SirArthur said: That's a (likelyhood) contradiction within the theory. And the reason is threefold: - before the doom of Valyria there were other dragon bloodline houses in Valyria. So at least for the early ones there is no real issue to pinpoint the Stark. The Starks may have been amongst them, but they are no more than a small part much like the Targs were not the only family in Valyria. - after the fall of Valyria we have similar issues. We may discuss Nettle, Targaryen bastards or House Velaryon. But at least after the doom we have the century of blood. Whatever we conclude, dragons seem to prefere the vulcano on Dragonstone for living. This is my weakest argument, as we can not for sure say ,if it was or was not because of the Targaryens. - when Dany woke her dragons, 2 of the three who "became" dragons are not of Targ bloodline: Khal Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur. There is still a Targ taking part. But it is not exclusive. I quite agree with this. There were many dragonlords in old Valyria. The Targaryens survived the Doom because of Daenys the Dreamer had a prophetic dream and visions that Valyria would be destroyed prompting the family to move to Dragonstone. I think associating the Starks with white walkers is a mistake and it might be a deliberate trap set by the author. It's a feint to throw readers off from predicting the end of the story. The very substance that white walkers are made out of are very plainly water and (cold) air - two elements that are associated straight back to the Ironborn and their two gods: the Drowned God and the Storm God. The story of Durran Godsgrief was the very first "Red Wedding" where all his family and guests are killed due to his pursuit of Elenei, who was a diety that became mortal. I believe we are being given the "recipe" somewhat for how white walkers are made: marry the sea god to the goddess of the sea, kill your guests, and voila. In all likelihood white walkers were created to be soldiers made of ice. They're described as armored in ice and they carry super-sharp ice swords. They are killing machines even if they are magically made and can be made to disappear in a poof of mist and leave a melted puddle of water. How could anyone hope to live a second life in something that can evaporate so quickly? That being said they are conscious somehow. They don't walk around aimless, but you also don't see them during daylight hours. It seems to me that they are controlled by skinchangers when they are sleeping. The wildlings have proven to have skinchangers amongst them: Boroq, Briar, Grisella, Haggon, Orell, and Varamyr. They are of First Men blood, and I believe Ironborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 On 3/1/2018 at 0:39 PM, Black Crow said: This is something we've discussed before; the concept that the Targaryens once enjoyed - and yearn to again enjoy - a near limitless second life as Dragons - and that conversely the Starks once enjoyed a near limitless second life as Walkers I don't know if the Targaryens, or any dragonlords, have ever been able to do this. At least we haven't been given any evidence of it. My theory is that the Prince that was Promised, might be directly tied into this idea. That the Prince is meant to be sacrificed through fire so that his psyche can be transferred into the dragon. Which is why Aemon seems to directly tie the prophecy to Septon's Bart's theories about dragon gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said: I don't have my books on me, but a couple of parallels that stood out to me.Plus one other that makes me believe the wws are just a green seer casting his shadow through the medium of ice and snow. First, in "BR's" cave Bran observed some COTF impaled by roots.In his coma dream he observe another set of dreamers impaled on their ice spires. Coincidence? I think not. Fast forward to ADWD prologue we have preceding V6skins death when he was expelled; his moment of being in the clouds, the earthworm etc. His experience prompted him to say something that shouldn't be overlooked imo. " I am the wood and everything in it" It is my theory that as long as a greenseer's body is kept alive he can " be the wood and everything in it" The Weirwoods have kept BRs' body going until it is becoming nothing but bones. But I don't think when it comes to the wws that they are sacrificed babies. I think they are simply the shadow of a greenseer cast in snow and ice and held together by their spell. No different than what Bran did with Theon...Cast his likeness unto that of the Heart tree. I also think the issue is the breaking of the lore or cycle of death.These buggers just can't accept their second life and just fade away like they are suppose to. They are essentially cheating. No worries on the books. I think that most of us are familiar enough with the primary source to get what you’re saying. Or at least should be by now. I mostly agree with you. But with a couple of exceptions and/or additions. I think that being a greenseer attached to a tree isn’t quite enough. I suspect that something needs to be done to detach that greenseer from the tree in order for them to take up a second (or is it third) life in something other than the tree. It seems that you can be a greenseer and continue to skin change (we see both Bran and BR do this, I think) but I would expect there might be yet another step to be able to create your own body out of thin air, which seems to be what they are able to do. They don’t just travel on the wind. They are the wind. (It’s always windy before they arrive, but just freezing cold after they do.) I think that there’s a magical ritual and that it involves killing the weirwood tree. (Think of the lightening blasted chestnut tree that Jon sees that has been overgrown with white roses. Bring anything to mind?) I also suspect it’s the human greenseers that are at fault on this one, even though the children might have actually opened that door to them. You mentioned Bran seeing the people impaled on the ice. I agree that it’s rather analogous to the CotF in the roots. But what also stands out to me is that he sees people (humans) impaled on the ice and not CotF. I also agree that V6’s journey to his second life shouldn’t be overlooked, nor that statement that he is the tree. In fact, I think it’s quite important. Not the least of which because V6 was NOT a greenseer. Even if he didn’t stay part of the tree permanently, how did he ever join with it to begin with? Where did that power come from? Can anyone travel through the tree in death or is that something special? Is there something that V6 did that any skinchanger can do that increased his power? Is it related to the abominations? (I think it might be.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 9:39 AM, The Snowfyre Chorus said: Think I'll just set up here at the bar... and listen along. I do enjoy these conversations. Yo! Bartender! I hear that you know where to get a good deal on gin. I think that I could use a good Slush about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 On 2/21/2018 at 1:36 PM, Matthew. said: I admit, my suspicions of Mance are strictly personal crackpot. In particular, I suspect that Mance was interested in the Horn of Winter before the Others' return, and that he had originally intended to find it and destroy the Wall (and that he even used this as his 'pitch' to his earliest followers), and that it was only after the return of the Others that he wanted it as leverage for passage through the Wall, rather than as a tool to destroy the Wall. Incidentally, I think he's still looking for the Horn, and that he intends to do some poking around in the Winterfell crypts. Sorry about the late response. This, I don’t see as being crackpot at all. It’s actually right in line with what Mance has told us himself. I have to say it all depends on how benevolent I’m feeling towards Mance as to what my opinion on this is from day to day. Some days I can very well see things just as you have laid them out. At other times I’ve paused to wonder if finding out about the Others might have been what actually caused Mance’s desertion. That his whole goal in becoming King Beyond the Wall was to organize and hopefully save as many Wildlings as possible. That might be going too far, but I do have a hard time seeing him as being on the same team as the Others. On 2/21/2018 at 1:36 PM, Matthew. said: I agree, and I don't think GRRM is holding him back just so he can show up at the last minute to give us the results of Jon's DNA test. IMO, because of his winter spent with the Green Men, he knows important things about all of the magical chaos that is unfolding. And, as a bit more personal crackpot, I don't think the Green Men are just regular people wearing green outfits and headdresses, I think they're something a little more unnatural; thus, if he has formally joined their ranks within recent years - perhaps after sending Jojen and Meera to WF - then it may be that his present appearance would be quite startling. I definitely think that Howland being something a bit more supernatural than just your every day Crannogman is within the realm of possibility, if not just plain likely. At this point, if his only job is to show up sporting wedding photos and a DNA test kit, all while hauling a trailer chock full of wedding cloaks, musical instruments, missing weaponry and a rose garden, I think I’d be a bit disappointed. Unless, of course, he also comes prepared with lesson plans to teach us all about ancient weirwood history as it might pertain to the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 13 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said: Yo! Bartender! I hear that you know where to get a good deal on gin. I think that I could use a good Slush about now. As far as I know that deal is still available. But you can't get it up here at the bar. We're flat out. Good gin, though. So good, in fact, it inspired a theory of ice and fire: the infamous "G+T ≠ S." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said: No worries on the books. I think that most of us are familiar enough with the primary source to get what you’re saying. Or at least should be by now. I mostly agree with you. But with a couple of exceptions and/or additions. I think that being a greenseer attached to a tree isn’t quite enough. I suspect that something needs to be done to detach that greenseer from the tree in order for them to take up a second (or is it third) life in something other than the tree. It seems that you can be a greenseer and continue to skin change (we see both Bran and BR do this, I think) but I would expect there might be yet another step to be able to create your own body out of thin air, which seems to be what they are able to do. They don’t just travel on the wind. They are the wind. (It’s always windy before they arrive, but just freezing cold after they do.) I think that there’s a magical ritual and that it involves killing the weirwood tree. (Think of the lightening blasted chestnut tree that Jon sees that has been overgrown with white roses. Bring anything to mind?) I also suspect it’s the human greenseers that are at fault on this one, even though the children might have actually opened that door to them. You mentioned Bran seeing the people impaled on the ice. I agree that it’s rather analogous to the CotF in the roots. But what also stands out to me is that he sees people (humans) impaled on the ice and not CotF. I also agree that V6’s journey to his second life shouldn’t be overlooked, nor that statement that he is the tree. In fact, I think it’s quite important. Not the least of which because V6 was NOT a greenseer. Even if he didn’t stay part of the tree permanently, how did he ever join with it to begin with? Where did that power come from? Can anyone travel through the tree in death or is that something special? Is there something that V6 did that any skinchanger can do that increased his power? Is it related to the abominations? (I think it might be.) One can make a decent argument that the white walkers are literally made of frozen air. The skeleton and their outer shell made of frozen nitrogen, while their "pale blue blood" is liquid oxygen. (google liquid oxygen to see what I mean). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 hours ago, SirArthur said: That's a (likelyhood) contradiction within the theory. And the reason is threefold: - before the doom of Valyria there were other dragon bloodline houses in Valyria. So at least for the early ones there is no real issue to pinpoint the Stark. The Starks may have been amongst them, but they are no more than a small part much like the Targs were not the only family in Valyria. - after the fall of Valyria we have similar issues. We may discuss Nettle, Targaryen bastards or House Velaryon. But at least after the doom we have the century of blood. Whatever we conclude, dragons seem to prefere the vulcano on Dragonstone for living. This is my weakest argument, as we can not for sure say ,if it was or was not because of the Targaryens. - when Dany woke her dragons, 2 of the three who "became" dragons are not of Targ bloodline: Khal Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur. There is still a Targ taking part. But it is not exclusive. Wires cross I fear. I'm not remotely suggesting that the Starks have anything to do with Valyria, quite the opposite. The Starks, or some of them are skinchangers and what I'm suggesting is that just as the Targaryens are linked to these magic dragons, so the Starks were linked to the magic Ice warriors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: I don't know if the Targaryens, or any dragonlords, have ever been able to do this. At least we haven't been given any evidence of it. My theory is that the Prince that was Promised, might be directly tied into this idea. That the Prince is meant to be sacrificed through fire so that his psyche can be transferred into the dragon. Which is why Aemon seems to directly tie the prophecy to Septon's Bart's theories about dragon gender. You may be right about the Prince but I'd suggest that there is a very strong tradition among Targaryens that they are or may become dragons - the problem may be that until now both they and the Starks have lost the ability to enter their avatars - the Ice and Fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 50 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: One can make a decent argument that the white walkers are literally made of frozen air. The skeleton and their outer shell made of frozen nitrogen, while their "pale blue blood" is liquid oxygen. (google liquid oxygen to see what I mean). Yep. Such a pretty shade of blue, isn’t it? Not to mention that (if we assume the same atmospheric makeup as that here on earth) the freezing points of Nitrogen, Argon and Carbon Dioxide aren’t anywhere near as low as that of oxygen, so it makes sense for those to be solid and the oxygen still be liquid. Here’s something else that I find interesting that is somewhat related. (Although you might already be aware, as I believe that you were the original person that I heard suggesting this whole idea.) From Wikipedia... Blue light is scattered more than other wavelengths by the gases in the atmosphere, giving Earth a blue halo when seen from space onboard ISS at an altitude of 335 km (208 mi) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Is there really any strong evidence that the Starks are the "Ice" in this series other than the name of Ned's sword? Speaking of the sword, Ice - it's another hint that the Starks helped "kill" winter. All of these things: "Winter is coming", "Winterfell (winter fell), Ice (the sword), Kings of Winter...they all point to the Starks defeating winter and not actually being the white walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 15 minutes ago, Black Crow said: You may be right about the Prince but I'd suggest that there is a very strong tradition among Targaryens that they are or may become dragons - the problem may be that until now both they and the Starks have lost the ability to enter their avatars - the Ice and Fire I wonder though.... Is it a strong tradition or more of a strong preoccupation/obsession? Just because it’s been obsessed over, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s been done. Although I also wouldn’t exclude the idea of the process being a lost knowledge. Pretty sure that’s what happened to the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Is there really any strong evidence that the Starks are the "Ice" in this series other than the name of Ned's sword? Speaking of the sword, Ice - it's another hint that the Starks helped "kill" winter. All of these things: "Winter is coming", "Winterfell (winter fell), Ice (the sword), Kings of Winter...they all point to the Starks defeating winter and not actually being the white walkers. You're missing the argument What I'm suggesting is that the Starks were once aligned with the Ice until the lord of Winterfell broke with it and overthrew the Nights King. Now there is a renewed battle which could see one of more of the children of Winterfell return to the Ice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said: I wonder though.... Is it a strong tradition or more of a strong preoccupation/obsession? Just because it’s been obsessed over, doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s been done. Although I also wouldn’t exclude the idea of the process being a lost knowledge. Pretty sure that’s what happened to the Starks. Its the latter which I'm suggesting, but to a degree it may be academic at least so far as the Targaryens are concerned. Whether, historically, they could become dragons, what's important is that they believed they could become dragons and behaved accordingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: Is there really any strong evidence that the Starks are the "Ice" in this series other than the name of Ned's sword? Speaking of the sword, Ice I can’t think of anything concrete off the top of my head, but I do think that Old Nan’s suggestion that the Nights King was a Stark is a hint in that direction. Not to mention the parallels between Bran and the Nights King. 5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: - it's another hint that the Starks helped "kill" winter. All of these things: "Winter is coming", "Winterfell (winter fell), Ice (the sword), Kings of Winter...they all point to the Starks defeating winter and not actually being the white walkers. I think that they may have done that as well. Just because one family member started the mess, it doesn’t mean that another couldn’t also end it. Not all family members agree on everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, Black Crow said: You're missing the argument What I'm suggesting is that the Starks were once aligned with the Ice until the lord of Winterfell broke with it and overthrew the Nights King. Now there is a renewed battle which could see one of more of the children of Winterfell return to the Ice It would be an awfully bittersweet ending if we needed to watch the Starks that we came to love in their first life need to be exterminated in their second. Or if the Starks that are still alive need to choose between their family and the rest of humanity, wouldn’t it? 4 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Its the latter which I'm suggesting, but to a degree it may be academic at least so far as the Targaryens are concerned. Whether, historically, they could become dragons, what's important is that they believed they could become dragons and behaved accordingly Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, Black Crow said: You're missing the argument What I'm suggesting is that the Starks were once aligned with the Ice until the lord of Winterfell broke with it and overthrew the Nights King. Now there is a renewed battle which could see one of more of the children of Winterfell return to the Ice I don't think I am missing the argument at all. I'm talking about the Long Night which is older than the Nights King. The Long Night lasted a generation and ended with the building of the Wall. The Nights King was a Lord Commander that ruled the Wall for 13 years and was taken down by his brother. I was talking about the former - the Long Night which is when the white walkers overran Westeros. The Last Hero was likely a Stark, and for helping defeat winter he was able to establish Winterfell in Children territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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