Certain Marriages (Webber & Osgrey // Manderly & Hornwood)

[Anarch Half-Hoare]

Hey everyone. 

I've a quick question for the better read people on this forum. What would customarily have happened to the lands and holdings of Lady Rohanne Webber and Ser Eustace Osgrey when they got married at the end of the Sworn Sword. The novella mentions:

“You would not know, of course. Coldmoat and Standfast were reconciled after your battle. Lady Rohanne begged leave of old Ser Eustace to cross his land and visit Addam’s grave, and he granted her that right. She knelt before the blackberries and began to weep, and he was so moved that he went to comfort her. They spent the whole night talking of young Addam and my lady’s noble father. Lord Wyman and Ser Eustace were fast friends, until the Blackfyre Rebellion. His lordship and my lady were wed this morning, by our good Septon Sefton. Eustace Osgrey is the lord of Coldmoat, and his chequy lion flies beside the Webber spider on every tower and wall.”

Which seems to imply that the lands and holdings 'merged'. Would this only be temporarily until Lord Eustace Webber (formerly Osgrey) would have perhaps a second male son to be given Standfast?

I've a similar question for how the Manderly - Hornwood marriage would've gone. Lord Manderly seems to imply he wants to marry the Hornwood widow and "make her a Manderly again". But what would happen to the Hornwood lands, would they become Manderly lands. Would House Hornwood go extinct with it? Or would it perhaps be given to a potential new son born from the union (although I believe Lady Hornwood was considered 'no longer in her fertile years' as Maester Luwin put it?)

 

 

[Anarch Half-Hoare]

Perhaps something that seems a bit concerning or might indicate an answer is that House Osgrey (unlike Webber) is not mentioned anymore in any of the books after the Sworn Sword. Could House Osgrey (a knightly house) have gone extinct when that marriage took place?

But he had a son. So that seems unlikely as well. So the most plausible explanation I can understand in that particular situation would then be for Edwyn Osgrey (the first son) to be made the Knight of Standfast and given it's holding, while the lands remained under House Webber 'control'. (Sorry, last track of the fact that he died during the Blackfyre Rebellion).

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

The Wiki:

"After the fight Rohanne and Eustace reconciled, married and Eustace became the Lord of Coldmoat: thus, lands that were previously under the domain of House Webber were restored to House Osgrey"

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Osgrey 

Generally, I get the impression that what happens to the lands in a marriage alliance is a subject of negotiation. Such situations are usually avoided by not marrying heirs to heirs, but that can't always be avoided (unexpected deaths in the family, etc).

In the case of the Manderly-Hornwood offer, he also suggested that his son could marry her and take her name, and we've seen elsewhere that great houses have continued down the female line. In that situation, the Hornwoods would remain a separate house but with obviously close ties to the Manderlys. If Lord Manderly married her himself, then I would guess it would end up with the same situation as Ramsey, who was "Lord of Winterfell and Hornwood" I believe, suggesting both are recognised as separate even under the same lord. Perhaps she would remain Lady Hornwood, and he Lord Manderly, and their issue would inherit both?

 

[Anarch Half-Hoare]

54 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The Wiki:

"After the fight Rohanne and Eustace reconciled, married and Eustace became the Lord of Coldmoat: thus, lands that were previously under the domain of House Webber were restored to House Osgrey"

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Osgrey 

Considering Ser Eustace Osgrey was the last remaining Osgrey alive I'm not sure who would still be 'House Osgrey' to restore any lands to?  Unless they had a union in which Eustrace kept his Osgrey name, but that also doesn't seem to match up with him being referred to as 'Lord Webber' after their marriage in the Sworn Sword.

 

Edit: Sorry, I'm bad at this! Turns out he was referred to as Lord Eustace Osgrey even after the matrilineal marriage to Rohanne Webber, but then this means his line (House Osgrey) would've gone extinct with their union.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 minutes ago, Anarch Half-Hoare said:

Considering Ser Eustace Osgrey was the last remaining Osgrey alive I'm not sure who would still be 'House Osgrey' to restore any lands to?  Unless they had a union in which Eustrace kept his Osgrey name, but that also doesn't seem to match up with him being referred to as 'Lord Webber' after their marriage in the Sworn Sword.

That I don't know, the passage from the wiki might be wrong, or simply implying that the lands he formally occupied returned to his line. Lady Webber went on to remarry as well, which could cause more confusion as to who inherited the lands after his and, eventually, her death. It could have been a child of theirs, who took the Osgrey name?

You can probably tell that I'm just riffing with all these ideas!

[Anarch Half-Hoare]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That I don't know, the passage from the wiki might be wrong, or simply implying that the lands he formally occupied returned to his line. Lady Webber went on to remarry as well, which could cause more confusion as to who inherited the lands after his and, eventually, her death. It could have been a child of theirs, who took the Osgrey name?

You can probably tell that I'm just riffing with all these ideas!

It seems to be implied that Eustrace got to keep his family name, but that his line went extinct with the union though, considering his children with Webber would've been given the Webber name too. (Else this would've broken the will of her father and might've given her uncle a claim to Coldmoat). This might explain why we never hear the name Osgrey again in later books. Which is not all that surprising considering Osgrey was reduced to a knightly house after the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Or... it could've been an oversight by GRRM when he referred to the name as Lord Eustrace Osgrey at the end of the novella. 

And yeah, I definitely understand the 'riffing' with ideas thing, some of the events and happenings in Westeros are quite confusing, but I suppose that is the beauty of having a world in which certain customs (marriage and succession) seem quite malleable.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

41 minutes ago, Anarch Half-Hoare said:

I suppose that is the beauty of having a world in which certain customs (marriage and succession) seem quite malleable.

Definitely, which is why I think that the whole thing may be subject to negotiation and the needs and preferences of those involved.

There are lots of examples of when men married into more senior houses, and either took their wife's name, or the wife's name was passed to the children (Arryn is one example, Lannister, I think, is another). Falyse Stokeworth kept her own name after marrying Balman.