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Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?


AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

There was most certainly a plan for a sacrifice- remember there’s also the parallel of Dany being near birth, and the drama in Drogo’s tent ( fighting with his blood riders)  throwing her into labor...very similar to what we see with Rhaella. 

That conflict in Dany’s story leads me to believe that yes, there was a faction at Summerhall that was opposed to what Egg was doing, and just like Drogo’s blood riders, tried to stop it.   In the aftermath, baby Rhaego died (so we’re told), but baby Rhaegar lived.

There are already very clear and rock solid parallels between Dany’s tent ritual w/ MMD and what we know about Ned’s encounter at the TOJ-  I haven’t plugged Summerhall into the pattern yet, but I am quite confident that this event would fit nicely and be the FIRST of three blood sacrifice rituals.   The first two failed because the Targs heading it up didn’t have the right recipe and/or combined with someone trying to shut it down.

Love it. Nice catches with the parallel to Dany and the faction split at the tent! 

And im kind deep in Mance links to Jon right now. Though i would laugh if Rhaegar is Jon's pappy and really planned on sacrificing him to hatch dragons, and that's why he didn't care about Jon being out of Wed lock hahaha That would also cement Jon's love of Ned hahahaha

I just can't cause Alysanne and Bael and her 13th child Gael the Winter Child and Bael's war with his son 30 years later. Then Gael being born in 62ac and the succession crisis of 92ac. Just toooooo many clues for me to ignore their importance and parallels. To which Jon would have been born in the crypts to the King beyond the Wall and his Stark Maid. While a southern lady gives birth in a Tower (Queen's Crown/Tower of Joy) to a daughter from a Northerner. And no one noticed it. Which leads me even more to think that its not a decoy. 

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12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That does not fix it or help. The dragons being born in the result of the other things you changed. Rhaego was born/died in the dothraki sea before the pyre.

It does help. How can you make a conclusion if your info is incorrect?  Otherwise it is just writing your own story. Fan fic. 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He was born at Summerhall. You dont know the order of events. He was born amidst the fires is all we know. Maybe Aegon was gonna burn the mother as she was birthing? We dont know those details yet, and can only speculate. But it is definitely possible that the fire as started on accident trying to get to and save Rhaella as she was birthing.

You don't know the order of events either. Maybe Aegon was trying to bring Optimus prime to planetos to fight his bastard child, the great other? But that would be foolishly rewriting someone else's story to fit the narrative I want. 
It is far more plausible, especially knowing Aegon's character, that the books that he had brought to to westeros from Asshai were incomplete, like many old books found in the story, and the ritual/spells they tried failed with disastrous consequences, resulting in the death of many people in the royal family. 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There would have been if he had done the ritual right and sacrificed Rhaegar. As in the case with Dany and Rhaego being sacrificed. 

I will quote your reply above 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You don't know the order of events.

and neither do you, so how did you get the sacrifice idea? Where in the books did it ever hint of a sacrifice by Aegon? 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maybe maybe not. Some would say BR is the master manipulator. Over say Varys or LF. 

He was not a master manipulator. That was smallfolk talk because he was such an effective hand with a very effective spy network. Varys also has a very effective network and Fatty McFatterton jokes about varys being a wizard. 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yet the Lengii sound like human children hybrids. If the Giants can, the children can.

The lengii are not part of the story, and the giants are hairy vegetarians. Rumors of giant/human crosses are the tales of uneducated free folk who are scared of large people. 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Except they are an Ancient guild. Ancient implying longer than 300 years ago which does not classify as ancient. So they thus likely predate K.L.

This has nothing to do with the fact that the pyromancers of westeros are established and would have been the pyromancers at summerhall. 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
an·cient1
ˈān(t)SHənt/
adjective
belonging to the very distant past and no longer in existence.
"the ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean"
  synonyms:of long ago, early, prehistoric, primeval, primordial, primitive; More
 

Also, this has nothing to do with anything 

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4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Let's see. So Aegon V wanted to sacrifice - murder - his own newly born grandson. Wow. That goes again everything I've learned about him, both from the novellas and from "The World..." book. And I should completely revise my opinion of the character - why, exactly? Based on  what evidence? 

Bingo 

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:41 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

snip

Love the idea. Don't waste your time arguing with the killjoys on this board who ask for unimpeachable truth for every suggestion. Even when you give them plain, simple facts, they'll deny that they are real because, you know, magic can explain or refute anything. And trying to peer into the subtext to perhaps see what is really going on behind the scenes is, like, hard.

Life is long and people can change, especially when they unexpectedly become king at a relatively young age and carry the burden of running a kingdom for so long. Aegon faced a number of uprisings during his reign, many of them from proud lords who felt Aegon was interfering with their rights to manage their realms, and their smallfolk, as they saw fit. So rebirthing dragons would have done a lot to help Aegon rule as he wanted, and if the World Book is any guide, he was obsessing over dragons by the end of his reign.

Plus, we have to take into account that when a woman is nearing the end of pregnancy in this time period (or any time period, for that matter), the last thing you want to do is send them on a long, bumpy journey to some far-off castle just to celebrate the birth. So it seems to me that extremely pregnant Rhaella was there for a reason.

But I also keep going back to the dream that Duncan had in the Dornish Marches where he and Aegon are trapped in a pit of sand and no matter how hard he digs the sand keeps pouring in. We can see from Tyrion's tour of the Guildhall that they make the wildfire in special cells equipped with levers that cause sand to pour into the room, smothering the flames in case of a mishap. If they rigged up a similar system in Summerhall, then Dunk could very well have died trying to save Aegon while tons of sand came pouring in from above. So mayhaps, even after foiling the plan and rescuing Rhaella before anything happened to her and Rhaegar, Dunk went back in to rescue the king that he still loved?

 

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Yeah, I think Egg may have intended to sacrifice his newborn great-grandson to hatch the dragon eggs. Dunk would obviously have never approved, and even though he was now LC of the KG, something that he could only dream of as a squire or when he was a lowly hedge knight, deep inside he was still Dunk of Flea Bottom who chose his honor and ethics over his KG vows. I don't see him standing by, and letting Egg sacrifice a newborn. He could have ignited the wildfire to help Rhaella and Aerys get away along with possibly Jaehaerys.  

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8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Love the idea. Don't waste your time arguing with the killjoys on this board who ask for unimpeachable truth for every suggestion. Even when you give them plain, simple facts, they'll deny that they are real because, you know, magic can explain or refute anything. And trying to peer into the subtext to perhaps see what is really going on behind the scenes is, like, hard.

Life is long and people can change, especially when they unexpectedly become king at a relatively young age and carry the burden of running a kingdom for so long. Aegon faced a number of uprisings during his reign, many of them from proud lords who felt Aegon was interfering with their rights to manage their realms, and their smallfolk, as they saw fit. So rebirthing dragons would have done a lot to help Aegon rule as he wanted, and if the World Book is any guide, he was obsessing over dragons by the end of his reign.

Plus, we have to take into account that when a woman is nearing the end of pregnancy in this time period (or any time period, for that matter), the last thing you want to do is send them on a long, bumpy journey to some far-off castle just to celebrate the birth. So it seems to me that extremely pregnant Rhaella was there for a reason.

But I also keep going back to the dream that Duncan had in the Dornish Marches where he and Aegon are trapped in a pit of sand and no matter how hard he digs the sand keeps pouring in. We can see from Tyrion's tour of the Guildhall that they make the wildfire in special cells equipped with levers that cause sand to pour into the room, smothering the flames in case of a mishap. If they rigged up a similar system in Summerhall, then Dunk could very well have died trying to save Aegon while tons of sand came pouring in from above. So mayhaps, even after foiling the plan and rescuing Rhaella before anything happened to her and Rhaegar, Dunk went back in to rescue the king that he still loved?

 

Ha! I like to think of them as the Good Squad haha i still get a kick out of Doran sometimes though, i mean, his son.  Doubty Mufassa 

And i definitely think his dragon obsession grew and may have become troubling.

And very good point about Rhaella! This is also why i dont think Elia was pregnant at Harrenhal. That and if she was, then Rhaegar has even less reason for paying any attention to Lyanna. 

And good point! I thought about including that dream but didn't want to over complicate things to start as this isn't so much a theory as a general question based on the similarities/differences between the two attempted hatchings. 

The biggest question i have into the sand trap idea being set into place (which is entirely possible), then did Duncan know of this and suggest it? Or was it a precaution of the Alchemist? I would think the Alchemist as they're the ones with the knowledge that it snuffs out wild fire. 

Back to your question. I do think that if Duncan did sabotage the ritual, that he would only have done so to save Rhaegar, but not to actually kill Aegon whom he loves and serves. I think he most definitely still would have tried to save Aegon, especially if the fire was spread because of Duncan's actions. He would die to save every one he could, if it was definitely his fault. Which a lot of this seems to fit into his character. Despite doubty mufassa.
 

The idea of Duncan saving Rhaegar and causing the fire to spread by accident is very intriguing to me and im glad others find the idea equally as intriguing :) 

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8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It does help. How can you make a conclusion if your info is incorrect?  Otherwise it is just writing your own story. Fan fic. 

No and no. And no it's not fan fic. It's written in that way with the actual hatching part left out. Though if you wanted to add them it would go like this.

            Summerhall                                                                                                 Dothraki Sea

           1 Wildfire                                                                                                       1 Funeral Fire

           7 Eggs                                                                                                           3 Eggs

           Pyromancers from Asshai                                                                             Shadowbinder from Asshai

           Birth of Rhaegar Targaryen                                                                        Birth/sacrifice of Rhaego 

          No dragons hatched.                                                                                      All three eggs hatched. 

They would be at the end as the resulting out come. Not a step toward said out come. There is a difference.

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You don't know the order of events either. Maybe Aegon was trying to bring Optimus prime to planetos to fight his bastard child, the great other? But that would be foolishly rewriting someone else's story to fit the narrative I want. 
It is far more plausible, especially knowing Aegon's character, that the books that he had brought to to westeros from Asshai were incomplete, like many old books found in the story, and the ritual/spells they tried failed with disastrous consequences, resulting in the death of many people in the royal family. 

True True, but we do know these elements were in play. And that may be the case with the Alchemist, though you would have to first admit that they come from Asshai.

 

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

and neither do you, so how did you get the sacrifice idea? Where in the books did it ever hint of a sacrifice by Aegon?

Because that's the only difference. Everything else is the same. Except that piece. Which may be the explanation as to why the results varied. 

 

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The lengii are not part of the story, and the giants are hairy vegetarians. Rumors of giant/human crosses are the tales of uneducated free folk who are scared of large people. 

Yea i disagree and so do alot

 

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This has nothing to do with the fact that the pyromancers of westeros are established and would have been the pyromancers at summerhall.

See your comment above, any hatching rituals may be coming from the Alchemist and their knowledge from Asshai.

 

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, this has nothing to do with anything

Yes it does, as an ancient guild, they are older than 300 years old and K.L. Since Valyrias is from the East, it's stands to reason, that they brought the alchemist with them. 

And when did the Maesters' officially replace them? Aegon I's time? Jaehaerys? Baelor? 

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8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Yeah, I think Egg may have intended to sacrifice his newborn great-grandson to hatch the dragon eggs. Dunk would obviously have never approved, and even though he was now LC of the KG, something that he could only dream of as a squire or when he was a lowly hedge knight, deep inside he was still Dunk of Flea Bottom who chose his honor and ethics over his KG vows. I don't see him standing by, and letting Egg sacrifice a newborn. He could have ignited the wildfire to help Rhaella and Aerys get away along with possibly Jaehaerys.  

And as Jon pointed out, Rhaella that close to birth would have to be there for a reason, or why risk her child? I digging the idea more and more :)

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8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bingo 

Its literally covered in the Op haha all things listed were the same other than Rhaegar survived and Rhaego was sacrificed. So that brings the immediate question, was Aegon supposed to sacrifice Rhaegar to make it work? Was he actually going to? Which then naturally leads into the question of what Ser Duncan would have done if this were true. Its not the hard haha

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7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its literally covered in the Op haha all things listed were the same other than Rhaegar survived and Rhaego was sacrificed. So that brings the immediate question, was Aegon supposed to sacrifice Rhaegar to make it work? Was he actually going to? Which then naturally leads into the question of what Ser Duncan would have done if this were true. Its not the hard haha

Have you even read the OP, haha? There's nothing there which comes even remotely close to demonstrating that Aegon V had it in him to murder a child of his own blood. And that's not a standard Westerosi act of cold-blooded cruelty. That's something way above and beyond, the deed that even the coldest, most ruthless sons-of-bitches like Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, Randyll Tarly wouldn't do. But, you say, Aegon the Unlikely could.

Do you have some actual evidence, a shred of evidence, a shadow of a shred of evidence? Something that Aegon V ever did? Something that he ever said? Something that has ever been said about him by another character? Anything? It's not that hard haha.

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This is just nonsense.

Mainly because important members of the royal family - Prince Duncan Targaryen, King Aegon V himself, and possibly Jenny of Oldstones, her children (assuming she had any), Queen Betha, Princess Rhaelle, Prince Maegor, Princess Vaella, etc. - died in the tragedy of Summerhall.

If Aegon V had cooked up some mad scheme, and Dunk had found out about that, he would have just put down the madman, not started some kind of chaos that caused the castle to burn down, nearly eradicating the entire Targaryen family.

Not to mention, you know, that Aegon V would have to have been retarded to actually allow a man like Dunk to actually attend a gathering where he intended to go through with such a crazy ritual.

And for that matter - he would also have to be retarded to invite anybody close to him to such a thing. The only person he would need there would be Princess Rhaella - Aerys, Jaehaerys, Duncan, Dunk, etc. should be elsewhere, not in the middle of things. The king would be alone with the mother of his sacrifice and the cruel and loyal thugs who would help him with his plans.

But there is no indication that any of this happened.

And not just that - the very idea that a man like Egg is going to become this twisted is pretty much insane. If people think that is possible then we could just as well assume that Dunk would actually follow Egg in this madness.

After all, the great Ser Duncan the Tall is the one who was really twisted and changed by his career. In 209 AC he effectively kissed the feet of Ser Lyonel Baratheon in gratitude for defending him in a Trial of Seven. In 239 AC he fought in a trial-by-combat against the very man who once saved his life and honor. Dunk didn't exactly live up to his high ideals as a Kingsguard. The right thing to do would have been to have the Targaryens deal with their own crisis. What is more important? The sexual desires of Prince Duncan, or the debt a knight owes to another knight?

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is just nonsense.

Mainly because important members of the royal family - Prince Duncan Targaryen, King Aegon V himself, and possibly Jenny of Oldstones, her children (assuming she had any), Queen Betha, Princess Rhaelle, Prince Maegor, Princess Vaella, etc. - died in the tragedy of Summerhall.

If Aegon V had cooked up some mad scheme, and Dunk had found out about that, he would have just put down the madman, not started some kind of chaos that caused the castle to burn down, nearly eradicating the entire Targaryen family.

Not to mention, you know, that Aegon V would have to have been retarded to actually allow a man like Dunk to actually attend a gathering where he intended to go through with such a crazy ritual.

And for that matter - he would also have to be retarded to invite anybody close to him to such a thing. The only person he would need there would be Princess Rhaella - Aerys, Jaehaerys, Duncan, Dunk, etc. should be elsewhere, not in the middle of things. The king would be alone with the mother of his sacrifice and the cruel and loyal thugs who would help him with his plans.

But there is no indication that any of this happened.

And not just that - the very idea that a man like Egg is going to become this twisted is pretty much insane. If people think that is possible then we could just as well assume that Dunk would actually follow Egg in this madness.

After all, the great Ser Duncan the Tall is the one who was really twisted and changed by his career. In 209 AC he effectively kissed the feet of Ser Lyonel Baratheon in gratitude for defending him in a Trial of Seven. In 239 AC he fought in a trial-by-combat against the very man who once saved his life and honor. Dunk didn't exactly live up to his high ideals as a Kingsguard. The right thing to do would have been to have the Targaryens deal with their own crisis. What is more important? The sexual desires of Prince Duncan, or the debt a knight owes to another knight?

For some reason, I find the idea of Dunk having to "put down the madman" hilarious. :P

That's an interesting point about Dunk and Lyonel, one I hadn't considered. Knowing what Dunk was like, the decision must have played on his mind a lot. This is certainly one of the periods I'd like to see covered in a future D+E novella. 

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4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

For some reason, I find the idea of Dunk having to "put down the madman" hilarious. :P

Well, I phrased it that way because it is hilarious to assume that Dunk would do anything but that in the scenario we are talking about here. He would not try to sabotage the attempt to hatch the dragon eggs or mess with the wildfire involved in the ritual. He would just put the mad dog down.

There certainly is a possibility that Dunk wasn't exactly a fan of Egg's plan to hatch the dragon eggs - and perhaps even wary/skeptical of the whole wildfire part of the plan - but the chances that he had anything to do with the whole thing going to hell are very low indeed.

4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

That's an interesting point about Dunk and Lyonel, one I hadn't considered. Knowing what Dunk was like, the decision must have played on his mind a lot. This is certainly one of the periods I'd like to see covered in a future D+E novella. 

To be fair, we don't yet know the context of the entire trial-by-combat thing but the fact that Dunk ended up being the guy fighting Lyonel when no one in the universe could have forced him to do that is, quite frankly, pretty telling. Even if we assume Aegon V/Prince Duncan's honor had to be defended by a knight of the Kingsguard, then we still don't have an explanation as to why Dunk thought he should be the one to fight.

The very strong vibe I get from that is that Dunk had become Egg's man, body and soul, at that point, willing to do anything to defend his friend and his friend's family - and perhaps especially the life and honor of the young prince who was named after him. Duncan the Tall and Duncan the Small are not unlikely to turn out to be the best buddies ever.

There is also the possibility that we see a variation of the Osgrey-Webber theme here, with Dunk volunteering to do something stupid to get two people to finally talk to each other (again). And it seems to have sort of worked, considering that Lyonel apparently survived the encounter (although I'd find it very interesting if it turned out that Dunk maimed or severely injured Lyonel in the process of the duel - that would be a very ugly yet fitting twist after Ashford).

But then, we don't yet know when exactly Dunk joined the Kingsguard. If it was during the reign of Maekar or even Aerys I then he would have to be pretty fucked up at that point, considering that he would have been willing to serve Aerion as Kingsguard (both while he man was a prince and in the very likely scenario that the man ended up on the Iron Throne).

And we should also keep in mind that he apparently made short work of Daemon III Blackfyre, which is also not something we would expect the man to do who really formed some sort of bond with Daemon II Blackfyre in TMK.

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13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No and no. And no it's not fan fic. It's written in that way with the actual hatching part left out. Though if you wanted to add them it would go like this.

            Summerhall                                                                                                 Dothraki Sea

           1 Wildfire                                                                                                       1 Funeral Fire

           7 Eggs                                                                                                           3 Eggs

           Pyromancers from Kings Landing                                                                 Shadowbinder from Lhazar

           Birth of Rhaegar Targaryen                                                                        Sacrifice of Mirri and Drogo

          Rhaegar, the last dragon was figuratively hatched                                        All three eggs hatched. 

They would be at the end as the resulting outcome. 

Fixd it again. Rhaego's birth and sacrifice alongside the horse was to heal Drogo. 

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

True True, but we do know these elements were in play. And that may be the case with the Alchemist, though you would have to first admit that they come from Asshai.

There is nothing to admit. The BOOKS were brought from the Shadowlands, and read by westerosi pyromancers. This is a far more reasonable explanation as to why the spells failed than writing your own story where the kling does something completely and absolutely contrary to everything we know about him. It also let's the heroism of Dunk stand on its own. 

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Because that's the only difference. Everything else is the same. Except that piece. Which may be the explanation as to why the results varied.

So there is nothing in the books to suggest a sacrifice. It is all you. That is writing a seperate story. 

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea i disagree and so do a lot

So what. You are still wrong about it. I mean, there are people who think the earth is flat, or that the moon landings were faked. They are wrong too 

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

See your comment above, any hatching rituals may be coming from the Alchemist and their knowledge from Asshai.

The spells and books yes. There were no alchemists from Asshai at summerhall. That would have been mentioned somewhere. It isn't, so you are writing your own story at this point.

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes it does, as an ancient guild, they are older than 300 years old and K.L. Since Valyrias is from the East, it's stands to reason, that they brought the alchemist with them. 

 I am not understanding your rationale here. Because the pyromancers guild is old, they would have brought people from the east because that is the direction of Valyria?  Also, the pyromancers were never truly replaced, they just stopped being the center of learning and esoteric knowledge on the continent. Also, the wiki says "recent centuries" so I would guess it would be after the conquest, after Aegon entered oldtown, took the faith and let brought the hightowers to his side 

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its literally covered in the Op haha all things listed were the same other than Rhaegar survived and Rhaego was sacrificed. So that brings the immediate question, was Aegon supposed to sacrifice Rhaegar to make it work? 

 No, this goes absolutely and completely against literally (and I mean literally, not figuratively) everything we are ever told or shown about the character. This is why this is fan fic and not a theory. Now, If I am wrong you should gloat as much as you can, but since you still think R+L=J is bogus, I am comfortable with my statement. 

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Was he actually going to? Which then naturally leads into the question of what Ser Duncan would have done if this were true. Its not the hard haha

It is hard when everything you posit is in direct contradiction to what we have written in the books. I know that assuming everything the author writes is a fake out is a popular attitude on these forums, but is is literally always false or at best, entirely unprovable  

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8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Have you even read the OP, haha? There's nothing there which comes even remotely close to demonstrating that Aegon V had it in him to murder a child of his own blood. And that's not a standard Westerosi act of cold-blooded cruelty. That's something way above and beyond, the deed that even the coldest, most ruthless sons-of-bitches like Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton, Randyll Tarly wouldn't do. But, you say, Aegon the Unlikely could.

Do you have some actual evidence, a shred of evidence, a shadow of a shred of evidence? Something that Aegon V ever did? Something that he ever said? Something that has ever been said about him by another character? Anything? It's not that hard haha.

I was feeling lazy about typing a reply, so cheers, you took the words right out of my mouth. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is just nonsense.

Mainly because important members of the royal family - Prince Duncan Targaryen, King Aegon V himself, and possibly Jenny of Oldstones, her children (assuming she had any), Queen Betha, Princess Rhaelle, Prince Maegor, Princess Vaella, etc. - died in the tragedy of Summerhall.

If Aegon V had cooked up some mad scheme, and Dunk had found out about that, he would have just put down the madman, not started some kind of chaos that caused the castle to burn down, nearly eradicating the entire Targaryen family.

Not to mention, you know, that Aegon V would have to have been retarded to actually allow a man like Dunk to actually attend a gathering where he intended to go through with such a crazy ritual.

And for that matter - he would also have to be retarded to invite anybody close to him to such a thing. The only person he would need there would be Princess Rhaella - Aerys, Jaehaerys, Duncan, Dunk, etc. should be elsewhere, not in the middle of things. The king would be alone with the mother of his sacrifice and the cruel and loyal thugs who would help him with his plans.

But there is no indication that any of this happened.

And not just that - the very idea that a man like Egg is going to become this twisted is pretty much insane. If people think that is possible then we could just as well assume that Dunk would actually follow Egg in this madness.

After all, the great Ser Duncan the Tall is the one who was really twisted and changed by his career. In 209 AC he effectively kissed the feet of Ser Lyonel Baratheon in gratitude for defending him in a Trial of Seven. In 239 AC he fought in a trial-by-combat against the very man who once saved his life and honor. Dunk didn't exactly live up to his high ideals as a Kingsguard. The right thing to do would have been to have the Targaryens deal with their own crisis. What is more important? The sexual desires of Prince Duncan, or the debt a knight owes to another knight?

Never thought I'd say this, since we never ever see eye to eye on anything... but I couldn't agree more. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I phrased it that way because it is hilarious to assume that Dunk would do anything but that in the scenario we are talking about here. He would not try to sabotage the attempt to hatch the dragon eggs or mess with the wildfire involved in the ritual. He would just put the mad dog down.

There certainly is a possibility that Dunk wasn't exactly a fan of Egg's plan to hatch the dragon eggs - and perhaps even wary/skeptical of the whole wildfire part of the plan - but the chances that he had anything to do with the whole thing going to hell are very low indeed.

 

Agreed, I would be pretty unhappy if Dunk turned out to be some wildfyre supporting villain - sounds utterly depressing as I've enjoyed his journey from obscurity to honour steeped hero massively.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

To be fair, we don't yet know the context of the entire trial-by-combat thing but the fact that Dunk ended up being the guy fighting Lyonel when no one in the universe could have forced him to do that is, quite frankly, pretty telling. Even if we assume Aegon V/Prince Duncan's honor had to be defended by a knight of the Kingsguard, then we still don't have an explanation as to why Dunk thought he should be the one to fight.

The very strong vibe I get from that is that Dunk had become Egg's man, body and soul, at that point, willing to do anything to defend his friend and his friend's family - and perhaps especially the life and honor of the young prince who was named after him. Duncan the Tall and Duncan the Small are not unlikely to turn out to be the best buddies ever.

There is also the possibility that we see a variation of the Osgrey-Webber theme here, with Dunk volunteering to do something stupid to get two people to finally talk to each other (again). And it seems to have sort of worked, considering that Lyonel apparently survived the encounter (although I'd find it very interesting if it turned out that Dunk maimed or severely injured Lyonel in the process of the duel - that would be a very ugly yet fitting twist after Ashford).

But then, we don't yet know when exactly Dunk joined the Kingsguard. If it was during the reign of Maekar or even Aerys I then he would have to be pretty fucked up at that point, considering that he would have been willing to serve Aerion as Kingsguard (both while he man was a prince and in the very likely scenario that the man ended up on the Iron Throne).

Another fine point, Dunk serving Aerion would also make for excellent reading. How do you think the Bright Prince might have treated Ser Duncan at that point?

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And we should also keep in mind that he apparently made short work of Daemon III Blackfyre, which is also not something we would expect the man to do who really formed some sort of bond with Daemon II Blackfyre in TMK.

I'm very interested in finding out about Dunk's interpretation of the Blackfyres, post Mystery Knight.

With the guilt Dunk felt over Baelor Breakspear's death, it's not unreasonable to think he would have a similar sentiment towards Daemon II, who was apparently rotting away in the dungeons of Red Keep - perhaps Daemon III reminded Duncan of his former friend The Fiddler.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is just nonsense.

Bingo X infinity!!!!!!!

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mainly because important members of the royal family - Prince Duncan Targaryen, King Aegon V himself, and possibly Jenny of Oldstones, her children (assuming she had any), Queen Betha, Princess Rhaelle, Prince Maegor, Princess Vaella, etc. - died in the tragedy of Summerhall.

If Aegon V had cooked up some mad scheme, and Dunk had found out about that, he would have just put down the madman, not started some kind of chaos that caused the castle to burn down, nearly eradicating the entire Targaryen family.

Not to mention, you know, that Aegon V would have to have been retarded to actually allow a man like Dunk to actually attend a gathering where he intended to go through with such a crazy ritual.

And for that matter - he would also have to be retarded to invite anybody close to him to such a thing. The only person he would need there would be Princess Rhaella - Aerys, Jaehaerys, Duncan, Dunk, etc. should be elsewhere, not in the middle of things. The king would be alone with the mother of his sacrifice and the cruel and loyal thugs who would help him with his plans.

There you go, being rational. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But there is no indication that any of this happened.

This never stops anyone from writing fan fic in here. 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And not just that - the very idea that a man like Egg is going to become this twisted is pretty much insane. If people think that is possible then we could just as well assume that Dunk would actually follow Egg in this madness.

After all, the great Ser Duncan the Tall is the one who was really twisted and changed by his career. In 209 AC he effectively kissed the feet of Ser Lyonel Baratheon in gratitude for defending him in a Trial of Seven. In 239 AC he fought in a trial-by-combat against the very man who once saved his life and honor. Dunk didn't exactly live up to his high ideals as a Kingsguard. The right thing to do would have been to have the Targaryens deal with their own crisis. What is more important? The sexual desires of Prince Duncan, or the debt a knight owes to another knight?

Boom 

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is just nonsense.

Mainly because important members of the royal family - Prince Duncan Targaryen, King Aegon V himself, and possibly Jenny of Oldstones, her children (assuming she had any), Queen Betha, Princess Rhaelle, Prince Maegor, Princess Vaella, etc. - died in the tragedy of Summerhall.

If Aegon V had cooked up some mad scheme, and Dunk had found out about that, he would have just put down the madman, not started some kind of chaos that caused the castle to burn down, nearly eradicating the entire Targaryen family.

Not to mention, you know, that Aegon V would have to have been retarded to actually allow a man like Dunk to actually attend a gathering where he intended to go through with such a crazy ritual.

And for that matter - he would also have to be retarded to invite anybody close to him to such a thing. The only person he would need there would be Princess Rhaella - Aerys, Jaehaerys, Duncan, Dunk, etc. should be elsewhere, not in the middle of things. The king would be alone with the mother of his sacrifice and the cruel and loyal thugs who would help him with his plans.

But there is no indication that any of this happened.

And not just that - the very idea that a man like Egg is going to become this twisted is pretty much insane. If people think that is possible then we could just as well assume that Dunk would actually follow Egg in this madness.

After all, the great Ser Duncan the Tall is the one who was really twisted and changed by his career. In 209 AC he effectively kissed the feet of Ser Lyonel Baratheon in gratitude for defending him in a Trial of Seven. In 239 AC he fought in a trial-by-combat against the very man who once saved his life and honor. Dunk didn't exactly live up to his high ideals as a Kingsguard. The right thing to do would have been to have the Targaryens deal with their own crisis. What is more important? The sexual desires of Prince Duncan, or the debt a knight owes to another knight?

Oh yea? About as retarded as keeping Jamie Lannister next to you when his father his sacking the city? Bout that dumb you imagine?  

Jamie who looks up to Dunk? Jamie who saved Kings Landing from burning by betraying his king.

Nope, never seen that narrative turn before.

Some people act like i just suggested Santa wasn't real lmao 

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