Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He's reading from it while considering his crappy honor. That's the point of the scene. He's thinking about them in comparison to him self. So yes it is the same as him thinking on his own about Duncan. He looks up to their actions and deeds and feels bad about his tiny section and how it paints him as a horrible person. I wanted to become Arthur Dayne and i became the smiling knight. Which also plays into both Aegon and Duncan not ending as who they began as.

No body in this story is ending where they started. That is character development. We have Jaime thinking of Dayne and comparing himself to Dayne more than ten times throughout the story, on his own and not while reading from a list in a book, and it is often in contrast to Tywin at key moments. This is another situation of who is the "father" vs sperm donor scenario.

Sorry if I have missed it, but have you answered how Duncan the Tall, "Maybe accidentally knocking the wildfire over and starting the inferno that consumed House Targaryen?" I am honestly trying to figure out this key component to the theory.

 

ADDING: Ya know, Sandman, don't mind me. I will just read along to see how these questions are answered before I bring up new ones I don't want to derail anything.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I definitely agree that Aegon V very much wanted to hatch dragons. I don't believe he'd sacrifice a babe of his own blood to try to do so though.

If I remember correctly Dany would put her dragon eggs on top her pregnant belly, maybe that helped awaken them so they could be hatched later on. So maybe that's why Aegon V thought he needed a pregnant Rhaella at Summerhall. So she could place the eggs on her belly, then after that he'd put the eggs in the wildfire or something. Before the dance when Targ babes were born they'd but a egg in their cradle and somethings that egg would hatch and that dragon would become the child's. Perhaps that is the connection Aegon V was looking for,  between pregnant Targaryen's and dragon hatching. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, and given how long Duncan and Jenny were married, chances are they had some. But of course impossible to be sure they did at this point, let alone how many if they did.

Well there are 9 Targs who possibly died there or who's deaths are unknown. 

The biggest problem is that its the son of the person who's house it was. So it would have to be one of Aegon V's sons, or one of there son's as a prince usually gets Summerhall. 

So prince Duncan would have to have secret kid with Jenny that did it. Or Jaehaerys had an extra son? or Daeron had a son before he died in 251? . 

Who ever it is, if it's a Targ, they could be purposely left off the list for committing the act. Though i dont know why said person would be allowed to live and take the Black rather than being executed. Unless it had to do with kin slaying being a sin.

The nine btw are Duncan, Rhaelle, Daella, Rhae, Aegon V, Maegor, Vaelle, Aelora, and Daenora. 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Never thought I'd say this, since we never ever see eye to eye on anything... but I couldn't agree more. 

Well, I told you that our views are not that different, didn't I? Discussions only work if there is something to discuss, though ;-).

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Agreed, I would be pretty unhappy if Dunk turned out to be some wildfyre supporting villain - sounds utterly depressing as I've enjoyed his journey from obscurity to honour steeped hero massively.

Well, to be frank, I don't think Aegon V made a plan where the wildfire was supposed to burn down the castle. Nor do I think he was stupid enough to not make precautions should something go wrong. I think somebody sabotaged his efforts, or something happened that messed with his precautions. And then all hell broke lose.

Wildfire itself is dangerous but not necessarily something we should associate with 'madness'.

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Another fine point, Dunk serving Aerion would also make for excellent reading. How do you think the Bright Prince might have treated Ser Duncan at that point?

That is an interesting question, isn't it?

Still, we don't know yet when Dunk joined the KG. The first time he is mentioned as a KG is in 236 AC when he kills the third Daemon Blackfyre. Considering that one or multiple KG could have died alongside King Maekar at Starpike in 233 AC, it is possible that it was indeed King Aegon V who handed Dunk his white cloak. But we don't know that yet.

One assumes that Dunk and Aerion remained stalwart enemies throughout most of the reign of King Aerys I, but the Third Blackfyre Rebellion has the potential to change that. Dunk could save Aerion's life during that war - or perhaps even vice versa. They will all have common enemies during this war.

If Dunk and Egg remain as close as they are throughout their lives then Dunk is likely to spend considerable time at the court of King Maekar - after all, we do know that Maekar called all his sons to court after he took the Iron Throne. If it turned out that Dunk joined the KG, say, around 225 AC, say, then he would technically also be obliged to protect - and even obey - Prince Aerion. Especially after the death of Prince Daeron since that would have made Aerion the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne.

But then, my personal guess is that Dunk actually ended up marrying Princess Daella after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion (a marriage arranged and approved of by King Aerys I and Bloodraven - and perhaps even Maekar, if Dunk played a crucial role during that war) with whom he then lived at Pennytree (or some other castle) until her early death in childbirth. Their daughter would then have been raised at court, eventually becoming the mother of Lord Selwyn Tarth.

In that scenario, Dunk would have been willing to join the KG only after Daella's death and Aegon V's ascension to the Iron Throne.

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I'm very interested in finding out about Dunk's interpretation of the Blackfyres, post Mystery Knight.

I guess there is a chance that the pretender Haegon and Bittersteel give him a new perspective on them, especially (but not only) during the Third Rebellion. Keep in mind that Dunk and Egg might actually serve with Bittersteel and various Blackfyres in the Golden Company during their scheduled stint in Essos. They would do that incognito, of course, but it might still be enough for them to learn what kind of people Bittersteel and some of the Blackfyres are.

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

With the guilt Dunk felt over Baelor Breakspear's death, it's not unreasonable to think he would have a similar sentiment towards Daemon II, who was apparently rotting away in the dungeons of Red Keep - perhaps Daemon III reminded Duncan of his former friend The Fiddler.

Daemon the Younger didn't go into a dungeon cell. Bloodraven talks about him becoming an honored guest at the Red Keep. We are talking about royalty and close relations here. Daemon the Younger is King Aerys I's first cousin and Bloodraven's nephew. Royal and noble prisoners are rarely thrown in ugly cells. Just think about Jaime's imprisonment at Riverrun. He only went into the ugly cell after he tried to escape.

Now, if they intended to execute Daemon they may have treated him like Cersei treated Ned. But that's clearly not the plan. In fact, it would not surprise me if Daemon the Younger eventually ended up joining Aerys I's and Bloodraven's sorcerer cabal at court due to his prophetic dreams. They would have been rather interested in them...

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No body in this story is ending where they started. That is character development. We have Jaime thinking of Dayne and comparing himself to Dayne more than ten times throughout the story, on his own and not while reading from a list in a book, and it is often in contrast to Tywin at key moments. This is another situation of who is the "father" vs sperm donor scenario.

Sorry if I have missed it, but have you answered how Duncan the Tall, "Maybe accidentally knocking the wildfire over and starting the inferno that consumed House Targaryen?" I am honestly trying to figure out this key component to the theory.

 

ADDING: Ya know, Sandman, don't mind me. I will just read along to see how these questions are answered before I bring up new ones I don't want to derail anything.

Not a theory, its more of a question. Maybe it can become a theory, maybe not. We'll see. 

As far as how Duncan knocked it over on accident trying to get to Rhaegar? Idk, im sure there are plenty of ways though. Again, not a theory, more a question centered around the only perceived difference between the two events of Dany hatching and their attempted hatching. 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be frank, I don't think Aegon V made a plan where the wildfire was supposed to burn down the castle. Nor do I think he was stupid enough to not make precautions should something go wrong. I think somebody sabotaged his efforts, or something happened that messed with his precautions. And then all hell broke lose.

Exactly. And i think it's fair to ask if Duncan was the one. Maybe he wasn't, but some one was. 

It does seem Duncan is tied to his death as he possibly is haunted by dreams of failing to save him. Though this doesn't mean he is the one.

Dunk though i think would be upset if Rhaegar was actually to be sacrificed. Maybe we should be asking first if Rhaegar was going to be sacrificed? But the next question is still fair. And Dunk has no problem hitting Aegon up side the head. Just seemed possibly with in his character and would definitely add a real tragedy to his and Aegon's relationship. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Oh yea? About as retarded as keeping Jamie Lannister next to you when his father his sacking the city? Bout that dumb you imagine?  

That is a false equivalence. King Aerys II is known as 'the Mad King' for a reason. Aegon V isn't the Mad King. Nor is he known as 'the Stupid King'.

Quote

Jamie who looks up to Dunk? Jamie who saved Kings Landing from burning by betraying his king.

Jaime doesn't look up to Dunk. He never knew him, and he barely ever thinks about him.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You got alot here and some actually good thinking and looking at signs for character motivation or various things. Though i would also point out that even Jamie Lannister flipped his script. People can and do change.

Why do you continue to compare Jaime to Dunk? Those two men have pretty much nothing in common. You could just as well compare Ramsay to Sansa.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Something had to have happened there for it to be a secret. There were survivors who can tell the tale, but its not. So something is up. The tragedy is unknown. 
Wildfire simply getting away from them and killing most people isn't a secret to be held. That's something that gets told as a cautionary tale. But that's not how it's given to us. Its given to us a mystery where we are not sure what happened, but that something happened.

Sure, and there is likely going to be a twist there, but a twist which is likely connected to the people involved in the whole thing, people who we barely know at that point. We don't even have an idea who was there, and how the people being there were connected to King Aegon V.

There are other suspects out there who might have been not exactly keen on seeing King Aegon V acquiring dragons - the lords who opposed his reforms, the maesters who didn't want the dragons return, etc.

Dunk isn't at the top of that list. Far to the contrary, actually.

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You guys are better off arguing Duncan being complacent or something to do with Duncan than try and convince me that Aegon V wasn't desperate to hatch dragons, and that desperation doesn't make men do bad things. Take Stannis, who even let's his Maester wear motley and later will sacrifice his daughter. Cressen even tells us that Stannis was never cruel like that. So that argument is weak and wishful.

LOL, no. Because comparing Aegon V to Stannis is a false equivalence, too. Stannis was never a good man, he had always a shitty and miserable character. He was always unhappy, always pissed at something (the gods for killing his parents, his brother for being Robert, himself for being not as great a guy as Robert, Renly for being Renly, etc.). Aegon V is nothing like that, and you know it.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Exactly. And i think it's fair to ask if Duncan was the one. Maybe he wasn't, but some one was. 

Well, it isn't very likely that he was. And it isn't even clear that there was sabotage or a betrayal. There could have been. But perhaps it was just a very unlucky accident. Like Rhaella going into labor early, and somebody accidentally knocking down a jar of (burning) wildfire in the subsequent commotion. That could have been enough. So many people dying could have been caused by Aegon V, Duncan, etc. trying to save the dragon eggs from destruction, preventing them from getting out of the castle while there was still time.

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Dunk though i think would be upset if Rhaegar was actually to be sacrificed. Maybe we should be asking first if Rhaegar was going to be sacrificed?

Considering that we do know that the gathering at Summerhall was supposed to celebrate the birth of Prince Rhaegar we can be reasonably sure that the answer to this question is a resounding no.

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a false equivalence. King Aerys II is known as 'the Mad King' for a reason. Aegon V isn't the Mad King. Nor is he known as 'the Stupid King'.

Jaime doesn't look up to Dunk. He never knew him, and he barely ever thinks about him.

Why do you continue to compare Jaime to Dunk? Those two men have pretty much nothing in common. You could just as well compare Ramsay to Sansa.

Sure, and there is likely going to be a twist there, but a twist which is likely connected to the people involved in the whole thing, people who we barely know at that point. We don't even have an idea who was there, and how the people being there were connected to King Aegon V.

There are other suspects out there who might have been not exactly keen on seeing King Aegon V acquiring dragons - the lords who opposed his reforms, the maesters who didn't want the dragons return, etc.

Dunk isn't at the top of that list. Far to the contrary, actually.

LOL, no. Because comparing Aegon V to Stannis is a false equivalence, too. Stannis was never a good man, he had always a shitty and miserable character. He was always unhappy, always pissed at something (the gods for killing his parents, his brother for being Robert, himself for being not as great a guy as Robert, Renly for being Renly, etc.). Aegon V is nothing like that, and you know it.

I already covered Jamie and Duncan with a quote so your opinion is mute and wrong. Sorry.

The rest of what you say reads as bad as your take on Jamie. 

And yes, comparing Aegon V to Stannis is fare as i gave Cressens opinion who knew him. Whether Stannis was originally as nice as Aegon is mute. Stannis turned dark, and Aegon is alluded to possibly have also as he grew obsessed with hatching dragons to control his rivals, yea, sounds like a nice dude there in the end. If you wont do as i want, ill burn you. Righhhhhhttttttttt. Nice insight Varys.

[AlaskanSandman]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it isn't very likely that he was. And it isn't even clear that there was sabotage or a betrayal. There could have been. But perhaps it was just a very unlucky accident. Like Rhaella going into labor early, and somebody accidentally knocking down a jar of (burning) wildfire in the subsequent commotion. That could have been enough. So many people dying could have been caused by Aegon V, Duncan, etc. trying to save the dragon eggs from destruction, preventing them from getting out of the castle while there was still time.

Considering that we do know that the gathering at Summerhall was supposed to celebrate the birth of Prince Rhaegar we can be reasonably sure that the answer to this question is a resounding no.

Why would birthing Rhaella be so close to the Wild fire? Unless you were actually gonna sacrifice her. Not a smart place to birth a child man. 

And since Rhaella was so close to birth, we can be sure she didn't drag her prego butt all the way to Summerhall for nothing. 

And yea, im pretty sure they all knew she was near popping. Most people can count to 9 Varys. Crap man.

Edit- Scratch that, Jamie can only probably count to 5 lol Qhorin around 7. So we got some, my bad.

[Leo of House Cartel]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be frank, I don't think Aegon V made a plan where the wildfire was supposed to burn down the castle. Nor do I think he was stupid enough to not make precautions should something go wrong. I think somebody sabotaged his efforts, or something happened that messed with his precautions. And then all hell broke lose.

Wildfire itself is dangerous but not necessarily something we should associate with 'madness'.

I believe you are correct. 

The trouble I have with the whole situation is the actual wildfyre itself being used to bring back dragons. We know it's a man made magical substance, and the pyro mancers did say the production of the stuff might have gotten better since the return of dragons, so one can clearly see a link between the two. Still, I wonder how Egg planned to use the green liquid at Summerhall - did he plan on using the wildfyre in some Dany-like "pyre" set up?

This might be where your idea of some sabotage could come into play, as one would think Egg would have tried to make the whole ordeal as safe as possible for his gathered family members.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is an interesting question, isn't it?

Still, we don't know yet when Dunk joined the KG. The first time he is mentioned as a KG is in 236 AC when he kills the third Daemon Blackfyre. Considering that one or multiple KG could have died alongside King Maekar at Starpike in 233 AC, it is possible that it was indeed King Aegon V who handed Dunk his white cloak. But we don't know that yet.

One assumes that Dunk and Aerion remained stalwart enemies throughout most of the reign of King Aerys I, but the Third Blackfyre Rebellion has the potential to change that. Dunk could save Aerion's life during that war - or perhaps even vice versa. They will all have common enemies during this war.

If Dunk and Egg remain as close as they are throughout their lives then Dunk is likely to spend considerable time at the court of King Maekar - after all, we do know that Maekar called all his sons to court after he took the Iron Throne. If it turned out that Dunk joined the KG, say, around 225 AC, say, then he would technically also be obliged to protect - and even obey - Prince Aerion. Especially after the death of Prince Daeron since that would have made Aerion the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne.

But then, my personal guess is that Dunk actually ended up marrying Princess Daella after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion (a marriage arranged and approved of by King Aerys I and Bloodraven - and perhaps even Maekar, if Dunk played a crucial role during that war) with whom he then lived at Pennytree (or some other castle) until her early death in childbirth. Their daughter would then have been raised at court, eventually becoming the mother of Lord Selwyn Tarth.

In that scenario, Dunk would have been willing to join the KG only after Daella's death and Aegon V's ascension to the Iron Throne.

Very interesting, I wonder if Dunk might have had something to do with Aerion's "infamous actions" during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion? 

I like this idea about Daella - the idea of Dunk being rewarded with royal marriage, only for his bride to die, would add an unexpected layer of tragedy to his arc.

Him joining the KG after her death would make sense too. It would give Dunk a solid reason for being a White Sword and agreeing to never marry or sire kids - we all know the young Dunk often thought about Tanselle, as well as having a bit of a thing going on with Rohanne, he would likely need a solid reason to give up the chance at a family of his own. The Daella situation makes a lot of sense. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess there is a chance that the pretender Haegon and Bittersteel give him a new perspective on them, especially (but not only) during the Third Rebellion. Keep in mind that Dunk and Egg might actually serve with Bittersteel and various Blackfyres in the Golden Company during their scheduled stint in Essos. They would do that incognito, of course, but it might still be enough for them to learn what kind of people Bittersteel and some of the Blackfyres are.

An exciting idea, no doubt. I would certainly love to see some parlay between Egg and the Blackfyres going down in Essos. To actually see a scene with Bittersteel would be tremendous.

As two "men of the people", I could even see Dunk and Egg growing to somewhat sympathise with Bittersteel and his cohorts. 

With Jon The Fiddler and Daeron having somewhat accurate dreams about Dunk, I wonder how what he eventually must have thought of House Blackfyre's power and mystique? With all the talk of BR and Seastar's sorcery, how might he and Egg have grown to look at the Black Dragons across the water? Perhaps Egg's future obsession with bringing back dragons was partly inspired by the Blackfyres - who famously tried to get a dragon egg of their own at White Walls. 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Daemon the Younger didn't go into a dungeon cell. Bloodraven talks about him becoming an honored guest at the Red Keep. We are talking about royalty and close relations here. Daemon the Younger is King Aerys I's first cousin and Bloodraven's nephew. Royal and noble prisoners are rarely thrown in ugly cells. Just think about Jaime's imprisonment at Riverrun. He only went into the ugly cell after he tried to escape.

Now, if they intended to execute Daemon they may have treated him like Cersei treated Ned. But that's clearly not the plan. In fact, it would not surprise me if Daemon the Younger eventually ended up joining Aerys I's and Bloodraven's sorcerer cabal at court due to his prophetic dreams. They would have been rather interested in them...

You know, I had always figured that Daemon the Younger would have simply been tortured for information after his arrest, but I really like this idea about a "sorcerer's cabal". Might Aerion, known for his interest in the dark arts, have had a place in this?

I would thoroughly enjoy finding out more of Young Daemon's later life - seeing his character in TMK, he seems like the kind of easygoing person who Bloodraven could perhaps sway to the Red Dragon side.

One has to wonder how Lord Rivers viewed Daemon's dragon-dreams.

[Light a wight tonight]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 Erhm... of course he can. He can look up to a whole bunch of people. The point is, where are you getting it from? You stated it as if it is a well-known fact, like his admiration for Arthur Dayne. You know, the guy he thinks about on numerous occasions and thinks about how he wished he'd be like him. And since he never met Dunk, never talked about him once, and never spared him a single thought in all the thousands upon thousands of pages we have read, I am just curious as to how you reached that conclusion. It seems to me you mistook one for the other and now are a bit salty yourselfover your mistake.  

Same place he finds everything else. Makes it up. Same deal with every one of his topics.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The trouble I have with the whole situation is the actual wildfyre itself being used to bring back dragons. We know it's a man made magical substance, and the pyro mancers did say the production of the stuff might have gotten better since the return of dragons, so one can clearly see a link between the two. Still, I wonder how Egg planned to use the green liquid at Summerhall - did he plan on using the wildfyre in some Dany-like "pyre" set up?

My guess is that Aegon V may have come to the conclusion that he needed *really* hot temperatures to hatch those seven dragon eggs. We do know that wildfire burns very hot, and we do know that the temperature was also a factor in the hatching of Dany's eggs - at least in her mind. Remember that she concluded that the brazier in which she put the eggs earlier weren't burning hot enough to do the trick.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

This might be where your idea of some sabotage could come into play, as one would think Egg would have tried to make the whole ordeal as safe as possible for his gathered family members.

I'm pretty sure he did what he could. For all we know whoever betrayed him or sabotaged things ended up spreading the wildfire throughout the castle, igniting it when the ritual began, when everybody was distracted.

But then, wildfire is a very dangerous substance. A single jar being knocked down could cause a massive fire. 

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Very interesting, I wonder if Dunk might have had something to do with Aerion's "infamous actions" during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion?

Certainly possible. George is not likely to make the Aerion-Dunk relationship two-dimensional or uninteresting. I'd actually find it interesting if they had to work together on occasion. And the Third Rebellion would be the perfect opportunity for this kind of thing to happen.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I like this idea about Daella - the idea of Dunk being rewarded with royal marriage, only for his bride to die, would add an unexpected layer of tragedy to his arc.

It seems to be pretty obvious that he'll marry eventually. He has no intention to join the KG, and while both Daeron and Aerion are still around he would be essentially retarded to take the while cloak. He doesn't like either of them very much. In that sense, the widow when Dunk joins the KG is either in the years up the Third Rebellion (while Aerys I is still king, and his heirs are Rhaegel, Aelor, and Aelora rather than Maekar and his sons - Dunk may have been willing to King Aerys I, Bloodraven, and Rhaegel's children) or after 232 AC - when Aerion has died.

If he doesn't join the KG during the reign of Aerys I he has about two decades to live a normal life, take a wife, settle down somewhere (likely Pennytree), and have some children of his own. Or at least try to do just that.

The idea that it is Daella he marries is the fact that the Tarths are apparently descended from both the Targaryens and Ser Duncan the Tall. Why not combine that by making Dunk and Daella's daughter the grandmother of Brienne?

The other thing is that Daella is the sister Egg is betrothed to marry - something he doesn't do. It would be a very fitting twist if Dunk ended up with the very sister his friend was supposed to marry. And Daella is Egg's older sister, which makes her closer in age to Dunk than Egg himself and their sister Rhae is.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Him joining the KG after her death would make sense too. It would give Dunk a solid reason for being a White Sword and agreeing to never marry or sire kids - we all know the young Dunk often thought about Tanselle, as well as having a bit of a thing going on with Rohanne, he would likely need a solid reason to give up the chance at a family of his own. The Daella situation makes a lot of sense. 

Yes, even if it wasn't Daella, the scenario that Dunk is going to marry, have at least one child, and lose his wife pretty early in life is pretty likely.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

An exciting idea, no doubt. I would certainly love to see some parlay between Egg and the Blackfyres going down in Essos. To actually see a scene with Bittersteel would be tremendous.

I'm pretty sure we'll see the guy eventually. Perhaps first in an Essosi Dunk and Egg story, but most definitely in whatever story covers (part of) the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

As two "men of the people", I could even see Dunk and Egg growing to somewhat sympathise with Bittersteel and his cohorts. 

I could see them sympathizing with some of the exiles in the Golden Company, but not Bittersteel, and most likely also not the Blackfyres with him. Daemon the Younger was a nice guy. That doesn't make it likely Haegon, Daemon III, Aenys, or the two younger sons (and their descendants) are all nice guys.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

With Jon The Fiddler and Daeron having somewhat accurate dreams about Dunk, I wonder how what he eventually must have thought of House Blackfyre's power and mystique? With all the talk of BR and Seastar's sorcery, how might he and Egg have grown to look at the Black Dragons across the water? Perhaps Egg's future obsession with bringing back dragons was partly inspired by the Blackfyres - who famously tried to get a dragon egg of their own at White Walls. 

Well, when we first heard about the marriage alliances of Aegon V's three sons, my idea was that Egg had betrothed his oldest son Duncan to a Blackfyre heiress. He could (and should) have been the king trying to mend the rift between those two branches of House Targaryen through marriage.

It is a pity, that nothing of that sort happened.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

You know, I had always figured that Daemon the Younger would have simply been tortured for information after his arrest, but I really like this idea about a "sorcerer's cabal". Might Aerion, known for his interest in the dark arts, have had a place in this?

There was really no reason to assume that something of that sort would have happened. Daemon was a naive youth who know pretty much nothing - hurting and harming them would only harden the Blackfyre resolve. Having Daemon as a guest at the Red Keep really make King Aerys I look very good. If he mistreated the Blackfyre pretender then Haegon and Bittersteel could get the necessary support to launch another rebellion/invasion, just as Aegon II threatening to cut off his nephew's ear wasn't exactly popular with anyone...

Aerion could end up developing a close link with Bloodraven and Aerys I eventually, although I'm not sure he was the kind of guy these two would have been keen to have around. Although Bloodraven and he might have been reasonably close during Maekar's reign.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I would thoroughly enjoy finding out more of Young Daemon's later life - seeing his character in TMK, he seems like the kind of easygoing person who Bloodraven could perhaps sway to the Red Dragon side.

I hope we'll meet him again in a story taking place at court. After all, we should eventually meet the royals there, preferably before Rhaegel's death in 215 AC.

Daemon's death could be part of a story, too. I've been tossing around the idea that the masked ball where Princess Aelora was raped was used by Blackfyre partisans and agents to murder members of the royal family. Daemon II might have been killed to allow Bittersteel to finally crown Haegon and launch the Third Rebellion. We don't know when that masked ball happened, but it could have been part of the celebrations for King Aerys I's ten year anniversary - which also happen to take place in 219 AC, the year of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

One has to wonder how Lord Rivers viewed Daemon's dragon-dreams.

He indicates that he believes in them. And he and Aerys I may have been very interested in any dreams he later had.

[Dorian Martell's son]

22 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ha!!! Do you know how many times i've felt like asking you if your one of them flat earthers lol Just cause the good squad came out doesn't make you any more right lol you guys are as predictable as ever hahahaha 

 

22 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You guy's have the same week argument usually every time. Varys at least sounds half intelligent and not just repetitive with the same dribble. You Doran, not even close.

Your rational is as weak as, if it's not spelled out like a color by numbers then it must not be true. You put the same argument to everything. 

Youd be staring at Schrodinger's box ten years later going, nope! Cat still possibly alive! You havn't opened it yet so you dont know. I see no reason to think the cat is dead and may have food in there. We were never told the cat died so ergo the cat is still alive. Or optimus prime or what ever lame stuff you spew. 

It is funny that you claim weak arguments, but you cannot actually reply/refute/answer any claim I have made. And they require far less reach or stretch and work without writing my own story. You literally just admitted that I am correct 

[Van Gogh]

On 2/15/2018 at 6:41 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

So going over Summerhal some more in my head and i noticed some similarities and differences between Aegon V trying to hatch dragons and Daenerys actually hatching dragons. Ill make this short.

 

            Summerhall                                                                                                 Dothraki Sea

           1 Wildfire                                                                                                       1 Funeral Fire

           7 Eggs                                                                                                           3 Eggs

           Pyromancers from Asshai                                                                             Shadowbinder from Asshai

           Birth of Rhaegar Targaryen                                                                        Birth/sacrifice of Rhaego 

So the biggest difference at face value seems actually kind of simple. Rhaegar survived. Which begs the question, did Aegon V mean to sacrifice Rhaegar and actually succeed in hatching dragons so far as we know the process is achieved?

Did the ever so honorable and sense-able Ser Duncan the Tall have disobeyed his king he used to clout up side the head? To save baby Rhaegar from the madness of the fires? Maybe accidentally knocking the wildfire over and starting the inferno that consumed House Targaryen? But not before saving Rhaegar and his parents who may not have been aware that their child was going to be sacrificed? Of all of Aerys II's madness, i dont recall him trying to hatch dragons ever.

Aegon V was about to bind dragons to House Targaryens blood again?

Thoughts? 

Edit-

233ac BR is sent to the Wall by Aegon V who he may have helped get to the throne.

239ac-Br becomes L.C. of the Wall.    Prince Duncan falls for Jenny of Oldstone

252ac- Br is lost beyond the wall.   Does he meet Leaf then? Is Woods Witch Leafs child? Did they send Woods Witch a vision?

252-258ac- Woods witch brought to court by Jenny and Prince Duncan and tells Jaehaerys of prophecy/dream. 

259- Summerhall 

       Aegon V attempt to hatch dragons

       Birth of Rhaegar.

       BR's plans averted by Ser Duncan the Tall? 

 

A lot of people with king's blood died that day and not a single egg hatched.  One more would not make a difference.  Aegon V was not Azor Ahai.  He was not destined to hatch petrified dragon eggs.  

Dragons hatched their own eggs and had no need for human intervention in the past.  But the dragons became progressively less healthy and their reproduction weakened.  It took the chosen one to bring them back from extinction.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

It is funny that you claim weak arguments, but you cannot actually reply/refute/answer any claim I have made. And they require far less reach or stretch and work without writing my own story. You literally just admitted that I am correct 

Not even, just cause i dont respond to your dribble?

[AlaskanSandman]

48 minutes ago, Helena Kyle said:

A lot of people with king's blood died that day and not a single egg hatched.  One more would not make a difference.  Aegon V was not Azor Ahai.  He was not destined to hatch petrified dragon eggs.  

Dragons hatched their own eggs and had no need for human intervention in the past.  But the dragons became progressively less healthy and their reproduction weakened.  It took the chosen one to bring them back from extinction.

That sounds so bad and so Hollywood and so not Martin hahaha the chosen one ha it was a magical accident, i hardly think Dany is the chosen one. I bet she likes to think she is though.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/17/2018 at 5:37 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, and given how long Duncan and Jenny were married, chances are they had some. But of course impossible to be sure they did at this point, let alone how many if they did.

Based on the quote you shot and nine possible dead Targs may be close. If im not mistaken since Aegon V is king, Prince Duncan should receive Summerhall. So the man who burned his fathers home, would be the son of Prince Duncan and Jenny of Old Stone if correct. 

Though i couldn't say who at Eastwatch. Doubtful it's Cotter Pyke. I only know of the Maester Harmune and i think that's it? That we know of for sure? Unless some one else can find more, i couldn't.

[AlaskanSandman]

Im not gonna bother tagging specific people that blah blah blah'd a whole lot about Rhaegar's birth not being connected to Summerhal other than by chance.

This is for every one else that may be curious.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V

The last years of Aegon's reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros.

What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys.

 

 

 

So yes, not only did they know Rhaegar was going to be born there, it was part of the plan. Cause why else make poor Rhaella come out there? 

Rhaegar's birth was intrinsically connected to what ever happened at Harrenhal.

 

So i return to one of my original questions, were they going to sacrifice Rhaegar?

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not even, just cause i dont respond to your dribble?

you are responding, but you are not offering any support for your ideas other than you stating them