Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Stop trying to hijack threads

lol. you're the one who quoted me first. I'm just responding to you.

[John Suburbs]

11 minutes ago, Makk said:

This topic is highly speculative, has never been presented as anything else, but I think it is quite intriguing. I definitely don't think it is probable but I don't think it is unlikely either. We don't know details about that period of time, we have the world book and a more detailed set of stories about both Duncan and Aegon a much earlier point in their lives. I think everyone would agree that Dunk is the sort of person who would try and save an unborn infant who was about to be sacrificed in a sorcerous ritual. Most people here seem to not believe Aegon V would initiate such a ritual however. Let's take a look at what we do have. 

So we know Aegon really wanted dragons. We also have hints that he changed significantly as he grew older, he became almost obsessed with the possibility, ignoring friends and counselors, convinced that Dragons would help him make the world a better place. We know he was willing to explore ancient lore and take risks. Summerhall was almost certainly intended as a ritual to hatch dragons. And we know Dunk saved someones life.

As the OP pointed out, there is a striking resemblance to how Daenerys' dragons were hatched and what some differences were at Sumerhall.

And this is the sort of thing GRRM likes writing. He builds his characters by testing them and forcing them to make decisions they don't like. Would Egg want to sacrifice an unborn child, one of his own blood to boot? Of course not. But would he do it for the greater good and could he himself believe that the soul of the infant would live on in the Dragons? Such an idea is a lot more dramatic than an accident and we may get more on this in the future if GRRM gets round to it. I wouldn't rule this out.

 

 

Let's also not overlook the possibility that this might not have been Aegon's plan at all. Mayhaps someone else was willing to sacrifice a Targ for a dragon?

[Therae]

16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I know its never mentioned so god forbid it totally didn't happen then and we can't speculate on it (Paraphrasing others), but, did Rhaegar stick eggs in the cradles of Rhaenys and Aegon? What became of those eggs? The eggs from Summerhall should either be unscathed, or hatched. 

I think this is actually a really interesting question, and not necessarily unlikely. Aerys himself and his sister could have had eggs, too. I may be wrong, but I don't think it's ever mentioned what became of all the unhatched eggs--Egg's own, for example.

 

Quote

 

"No, but there are eggs. The last dragon left a clutch of five, and they have more on Dragonstone, old ones from before the Dance. My brothers all have them too. Aerion's looks as though it's made of gold and silver, with veins of fire running through it. Mine is white and green, all swirly." (Mystery Knight)

 

 

 

As there have been no dragon sightings in Westeros in a hundred and a half years, we have a pretty good idea that none of them ever hatched, or at least haven't yet (unless it should turn out that Dany's eggs were actually some of the old ones from before the Dance, and not from Asshai after all, although there is no particular evidence to suggest this is the case), so what happened to them? Were they interred with the ashes of the Targaryens they had been assigned to? Were they stored for reuse? Thrown into the sea after their sell-by date?

Given that the later generations of dragons were increasingly stunted and unable to thrive when they did hatch at all, I'm not sure how viable the more recent eggs would have been in any case, but the pre-Dance eggs that Egg mentions, apparently were no longer at Dragonstone.

Quote

 

Lord Hallyne of the Guild of Alchemists presented himself, to ask that his pyromancers be allowed to hatch any dragon's eggs that might turn up upon Dragonstone, now that the isle was safely back in royal hands. "If any such eggs remained, Stannis would have sold them to pay for his rebellion," the queen told him. She refrained from saying that the plan was mad. Ever since the last Targaryen dragon had died, all such attempts had ended in death, disaster, or disgrace. (FFC, Cersei VIII)

 

 

 

I think Stannis would have been more likely to try to hatch them, but I don't think there is any indication that he did find any.

Maybe Aegon V had collected all the known unhatched eggs at Summerhall, in which case, they were probably buried in the wreckage, but that doesn't preclude Rhaegar trying to find them in his many visits there, and if he did, he might have tried putting them in the crib with his children, particularly Aegon; if he thought the little guy was the PtwP, he might have believed the eggs would finally start hatching again.

[AlaskanSandman]

39 minutes ago, Therae said:

I think this is actually a really interesting question, and not necessarily unlikely. Aerys himself and his sister could have had eggs, too. I may be wrong, but I don't think it's ever mentioned what became of all the unhatched eggs--Egg's own, for example.

 

As there have been no dragon sightings in Westeros in a hundred and a half years, we have a pretty good idea that none of them ever hatched, or at least haven't yet (unless it should turn out that Dany's eggs were actually some of the old ones from before the Dance, and not from Asshai after all, although there is no particular evidence to suggest this is the case), so what happened to them? Were they interred with the ashes of the Targaryens they had been assigned to? Were they stored for reuse? Thrown into the sea after their sell-by date?

Given that the later generations of dragons were increasingly stunted and unable to thrive when they did hatch at all, I'm not sure how viable the more recent eggs would have been in any case, but the pre-Dance eggs that Egg mentions, apparently were no longer at Dragonstone.

I think Stannis would have been more likely to try to hatch them, but I don't think there is any indication that he did find any.

Maybe Aegon V had collected all the known unhatched eggs at Summerhall, in which case, they were probably buried in the wreckage, but that doesn't preclude Rhaegar trying to find them in his many visits there, and if he did, he might have tried putting them in the crib with his children, particularly Aegon; if he thought the little guy was the PtwP, he might have believed the eggs would finally start hatching again.

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

In the years that followed, the king's madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster, reasoning that only a man without friends, family, or ties in Westeros could be relied upon for the truth. The Spider, as he soon became known to the smallfolk of his realm, used the crown's gold to create a vast web of informers. For the rest of Aerys's reign, he would crouch at the king's side, whispering in his ear.

In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

 

 So Aerys had some that he had to go searching in the depth of Dragonstone for. So they weren't all gone. And the ones he found were supposedly old and turned to stone. 

 

Though we dont even know what a fresh dragon egg looks like. Egg describes his which i assume is fresh, yet he makes not mention of anything different about it. Other than not mentioning that it's stone. Though if he knows this is how they always were then he wouldn't be surprised of mention it. 

And for as valuable as they are, you would think people would be digging under the ruble for them if they were simply buried under the ruble of Summerhall. Im sure much of the rumble could be cleared away and used to construct small homes in villages. 

 

IMO, some one had to have taken the eggs that were at Summerhal. I dont think the remaining Targaryens would have left them there and some one else would have got to them else wise. 

 

I thought i recalled some other mention of eggs but ill have to go looking. In the Free Cities or the Citidel, i can't remember.  

 

There of course is the rumored clutch of dragon eggs left in Winterfell. 

 

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/22/2018 at 11:34 AM, John Suburbs said:

Let's also not overlook the possibility that this might not have been Aegon's plan at all. Mayhaps someone else was willing to sacrifice a Targ for a dragon?

Any suggestions?

 

[John Suburbs]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Any suggestions?

 

Anyone who was there. Prince Duncan perhaps? Archmaester Gyldayn? Jenny of Oldstones? Her little woods witch? Maybe even Jaehaerys.

Perhaps they were all in on it.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/14/2018 at 9:17 AM, John Suburbs said:

Anyone who was there. Prince Duncan perhaps? Archmaester Gyldayn? Jenny of Oldstones? Her little woods witch? Maybe even Jaehaerys.

Perhaps they were all in on it.

 

Could've at least put some credible people down with motives haha

[AlaskanSandman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFJWLpQzY0k

 

1:14:56 minutes into it. 

Interviewer -"Is human sacrifice needed to hatch dragons"

GRRM - "I've laid clues in the books.....I think im going to dodge that answer."

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Could've at least put some credible people down with motives haha

Like who? All Targaryens have a motive to get their dragons back. Who knows what the maesters were plotting back then? Jenny and her WW are angling to bring about the PTWP, who would only be more powerful with a dragon.

All kinds of motives could be at play here.

[AlaskanSandman]

59 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Like who? All Targaryens have a motive to get their dragons back. Who knows what the maesters were plotting back then? Jenny and her WW are angling to bring about the PTWP, who would only be more powerful with a dragon.

All kinds of motives could be at play here.

Well the Targaryen's wanting to get their dragons back should mean they wouldn't want to muck up the hatching.

The Faith and Maesters maybe, definitely in the cards. (best alternative imo)

Jenny and Duncan trying to bring about TPTWP is an interesting idea, but enough to muck up the hatching? It's not like it's a competition so far as we know to be the one to provide the PTWP

considering a human sacrifice is likely needed to hatch a dragon, there is still the possibility that Rhaegar was going to be sacrificed. Maybe that was the plan? Use Rhaegar to bring about the dragons, for Duncan and Jenny's child. Its possible they were going to just sacrifice some random people but Dany sacrificed people with Valyrian blood. Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo. So far as i can tell by their language, the Dothraki have Valyrian in them some how. Though they do take women and rape them, so no real surprise they would have mixed with Valyrians among some of the Valyrian cities they sacked like Elyria.

 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well the Targaryen's wanting to get their dragons back should mean they wouldn't want to muck up the hatching.

The Faith and Maesters maybe, definitely in the cards. (best alternative imo)

Jenny and Duncan trying to bring about TPTWP is an interesting idea, but enough to muck up the hatching? It's not like it's a competition so far as we know to be the one to provide the PTWP

considering a human sacrifice is likely needed to hatch a dragon, there is still the possibility that Rhaegar was going to be sacrificed. Maybe that was the plan? Use Rhaegar to bring about the dragons, for Duncan and Jenny's child. Its possible they were going to just sacrifice some random people but Dany sacrificed people with Valyrian blood. Viserys, Rhaego, and Drogo. So far as i can tell by their language, the Dothraki have Valyrian in them some how. Though they do take women and rape them, so no real surprise they would have mixed with Valyrians among some of the Valyrian cities they sacked like Elyria.

 

All perfectly plausible, but are you assuming that the fire was deliberate, not accidental?

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

All perfectly plausible, but are you assuming that the fire was deliberate, not accidental?

 

No im questioning, there is a difference

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No im questioning, there is a difference

I'd say there was a deliberate fire that turned into an accidental inferno.