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Duncan saved Rhaegar despite Aegon V?


AlaskanSandman

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So going over Summerhal some more in my head and i noticed some similarities and differences between Aegon V trying to hatch dragons and Daenerys actually hatching dragons. Ill make this short.

 

            Summerhall                                                                                                 Dothraki Sea

           1 Wildfire                                                                                                       1 Funeral Fire

           7 Eggs                                                                                                           3 Eggs

           Pyromancers from Asshai                                                                             Shadowbinder from Asshai

           Birth of Rhaegar Targaryen                                                                        Birth/sacrifice of Rhaego 

So the biggest difference at face value seems actually kind of simple. Rhaegar survived. Which begs the question, did Aegon V mean to sacrifice Rhaegar and actually succeed in hatching dragons so far as we know the process is achieved?

Did the ever so honorable and sense-able Ser Duncan the Tall have disobeyed his king he used to clout up side the head? To save baby Rhaegar from the madness of the fires? Maybe accidentally knocking the wildfire over and starting the inferno that consumed House Targaryen? But not before saving Rhaegar and his parents who may not have been aware that their child was going to be sacrificed? Of all of Aerys II's madness, i dont recall him trying to hatch dragons ever.

Aegon V was about to bind dragons to House Targaryens blood again?

Thoughts? 

Edit-

233ac BR is sent to the Wall by Aegon V who he may have helped get to the throne.

239ac-Br becomes L.C. of the Wall.    Prince Duncan falls for Jenny of Oldstone

252ac- Br is lost beyond the wall.   Does he meet Leaf then? Is Woods Witch Leafs child? Did they send Woods Witch a vision?

252-258ac- Woods witch brought to court by Jenny and Prince Duncan and tells Jaehaerys of prophecy/dream. 

259- Summerhall 

       Aegon V attempt to hatch dragons

       Birth of Rhaegar.

       BR's plans averted by Ser Duncan the Tall? 

 

 

Edit-

 

Quote

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFJWLpQzY0k

 

1:14:56 minutes into it. 

Interviewer -"Is human sacrifice needed to hatch dragons"

GRRM - "I've laid clues in the books.....I think im going to dodge that answer."

 

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148766-dragons-only-death-can-pay-for-life/

 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Did the ever so honorable and sense-able Ser Duncan the Tall have disobeyed his king he used to clout up side the head? To save baby Rhaegar from the madness of the fires? Maybe accidentally knocking the wildfire over and starting the inferno that consumed House Targaryen? But not before saving Rhaegar and his parents who may not have been aware that their child was going to be sacrificed? Of all of Aerys II's madness, i dont recall him trying to hatch dragons ever.

Aegon V was about to bind dragons to House Targaryens blood again?

Thoughts? 

That's actually a really interesting idea, and would be a deeply troubling and heartbreaking end to the Dunk and Egg story. 

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This is a very cool idea! Congratulations!

 

I'll offer some criticism anyway if I may:

I am not sure the similarities you base the theory on are correct: Even if Rhaego's death actually did contribute to 'fertilizing' the dragon eggs (as I think we both believe) timewise both Rhaego's (and Drogo's) deaths happened well before the funeral pyre, not simultaneously.

In contrast to that I always understood that Rhaegar was born during the Summerhall fire, not before or after. So there is a difference right there.

Same goes for Mirri's involvement: Her shadowweaving  happened well before the funeral pyre was even erected. (Unless Mirri's singing in the flames is counted as a spell. Which it might be I suppose but if so we have no clue hinting that way.) The one spell we really and definitely know she cast - and a powerful one at that - was when she supposedly tried to save Drogo - (and possibly killed Rhaego) well before the pyre scene, not simultaneously.)

Also you don't mention Dany's walking into the pyre as an ingredient to the hatching.

I suppose one could just ignore Dany's self-sacrifice as irrelevant. But really? Isn't it more likely that Dany's walking into the fire had something to do with the success of the dragon hatching also? Because otherwise: Why did she do it? Just because it looked cool? Even though it was completely meaningless? I don't buy that.

But if Dany's walking into the fire had something to do with the hatching (as I believe) then we have another difference between her successful hatching of dragons and Aegon V's unsuccessful try at Summerhall (unless Aegon also tried to walk into the flames which we have not heard about but I guess is borderline possible.)

All of this means (to me) that the similarities you see maybe aren't really similarities at all and thus the conclusion that Rhaegar may have been supposed to be sacrificed stands on shaky grounds.

Also an alternative explanation for Summerhall exists: maybe the tragedy and fire catastrophy at Summerhall did not happen because Rhaegar was not sacrificed: maybe its the other way round and Rhaegar got successfully 'hatched' (contrary to being stillborn or dying early like most of Rhaella's later children) because of the accidental mass sacrifice at Summerhall during his birth.

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Pyromancers are from Westeros, not Asshai (see Hallyne).

Not everything is a Bloodraven plot. Jaime thought Aerys II believed he'd be reborn as a dragon after the wildfire explosion, so I'd put some credence in that. 

the actual notion of Dunk betraying his king would fit in the overall tone of the series more. Maybe foreshadow for Barristan

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15 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's actually a really interesting idea, and would be a deeply troubling and heartbreaking end to the Dunk and Egg story. 

Right! It would nicely fit into the tragedy of it all. Especially as saving Rhaegar cost so many Targaryen lives. Rhaegars brooding would make sense then. 

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13 hours ago, Amris said:

This is a very cool idea! Congratulations!

 

I'll offer some criticism anyway if I may:

I am not sure the similarities you base the theory on are correct: Even if Rhaego's death actually did contribute to 'fertilizing' the dragon eggs (as I think we both believe) timewise both Rhaego's (and Drogo's) deaths happened well before the funeral pyre, not simultaneously.

In contrast to that I always understood that Rhaegar was born during the Summerhall fire, not before or after. So there is a difference right there.

Same goes for Mirri's involvement: Her shadowweaving  happened well before the funeral pyre was even erected. (Unless Mirri's singing in the flames is counted as a spell. Which it might be I suppose but if so we have no clue hinting that way.) The one spell we really and definitely know she cast - and a powerful one at that - was when she supposedly tried to save Drogo - (and possibly killed Rhaego) well before the pyre scene, not simultaneously.)

Also you don't mention Dany's walking into the pyre as an ingredient to the hatching.

I suppose one could just ignore Dany's self-sacrifice as irrelevant. But really? Isn't it more likely that Dany's walking into the fire had something to do with the success of the dragon hatching also? Because otherwise: Why did she do it? Just because it looked cool? Even though it was completely meaningless? I don't buy that.

But if Dany's walking into the fire had something to do with the hatching (as I believe) then we have another difference between her successful hatching of dragons and Aegon V's unsuccessful try at Summerhall (unless Aegon also tried to walk into the flames which we have not heard about but I guess is borderline possible.)

All of this means (to me) that the similarities you see maybe aren't really similarities at all and thus the conclusion that Rhaegar may have been supposed to be sacrificed stands on shaky grounds.

Also an alternative explanation for Summerhall exists: maybe the tragedy and fire catastrophy at Summerhall did not happen because Rhaegar was not sacrificed: maybe its the other way round and Rhaegar got successfully 'hatched' (contrary to being stillborn or dying early like most of Rhaella's later children) because of the accidental mass sacrifice at Summerhall during his birth.

Agreed there are some minor differences and maybe this comes down to Aegon V still having some of the order of events wrong? I imagine they would sacrifice Rhaegar first then do the fire bit. Or they were gonna do it all together with her birthing in the middle of the pyre and Duncan knocking the fire over before it was meant to trying to get to the center to save them? 

Could be wrong but just some ideas to shoot out real quick :)

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13 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Pyromancers are from Westeros, not Asshai (see Hallyne).

Not everything is a Bloodraven plot. Jaime thought Aerys II believed he'd be reborn as a dragon after the wildfire explosion, so I'd put some credence in that. 

the actual notion of Dunk betraying his king would fit in the overall tone of the series more. Maybe foreshadow for Barristan

Some are found in Asshai, some in Kings Landing. Kings Landing being only 300 years old and them being an ancient guild, suggest Asshai is the place of origin.

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13 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

I think this would be a cool idea overall. As Egg begins to fall into madness and obsession, Dunk has to sacrifice his honor for the greater good. I think Summerhall is going to fit into the plot somehow. 

It would definitely be something troubling to Dunk who already dealt with Aerion and such. Dunk is a man of action too and ruled by his conscience. 

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13 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Pyromancers are from Westeros, not Asshai (see Hallyne).

Not everything is a Bloodraven plot. Jaime thought Aerys II believed he'd be reborn as a dragon after the wildfire explosion, so I'd put some credence in that. 

the actual notion of Dunk betraying his king would fit in the overall tone of the series more. Maybe foreshadow for Barristan

Who said everything was? But the woods witch receives visions and Bloodraven is one of the main guys we know can enter dreams.

Jamie thought. Jamie shouldn't be f*cking with a thought, that shit gets him in trouble. Jamie's opinion is hardly supported any where's else. Just an off the cuff argument haha :)

Aerys II could simply meant to have burned it all down to spite Tywin from getting it, and maybe take Tywin out with him in the process. 

Yea this seems to be a running thing through out their three stories so far. Dunk always knocking some sense into Aegon V.

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13 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

I think this would be a cool idea overall. As Egg begins to fall into madness and obsession, Dunk has to sacrifice his honor for the greater good. I think Summerhall is going to fit into the plot somehow. 

I have a building "idea/theory" surrounding Prince Duncan and Jenny of Old Stone who died there in 259ac but fell in love 20 years before in 239ac. Having to do with them having children during there long time together. Children possibly lost in the chaos and sold into slavery. Prince Duncan him self named for Duncan the Tall.

Some one else we hear about who talks about 
"the greater good" "the good of the realm"

and looks an awefulllllll lot like Aegon V. 

Varys.

Who claims to be protecting Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar who would have been saved thus by the man Varys' father was named for. 

I may have the connection close but wrong still too. Any thoughts are welcome.

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30 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Any evidence of them being found anywhere else but KL

The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Any evidence of them being found anywhere else but KL

^

 

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden.

Thank you :) 

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20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So going over Summerhal some more in my head and i noticed some similarities and differences between Aegon V trying to hatch dragons and Daenerys actually hatching dragons. Ill make this short.

 

            Summerhall                                                                                                 Dothraki Sea

           1 Wildfire                                                                                                       1 Funeral Fire

           7 Eggs                                                                                                           3 Eggs

           Pyromancers from from king's landing                                                         Shadowbinder from Lhazareen

           Birth of Rhaegar Targaryen                                                                       Birth of three dragons  

I fixed the list for you

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So the biggest difference at face value seems actually kind of simple. Rhaegar survived. Which begs the question, did Aegon V mean to sacrifice Rhaegar and actually succeed in hatching dragons so far as we know the process is achieved?

Rhaegar was not born yet, so he could not be a sacrifice

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Did the ever so honorable and sense-able Ser Duncan the Tall have disobeyed his king he used to clout up side the head? To save baby Rhaegar from the madness of the fires? Maybe accidentally knocking the wildfire over and starting the inferno that consumed House Targaryen? But not before saving Rhaegar and his parents who may not have been aware that their child was going to be sacrificed? Of all of Aerys II's madness, i dont recall him trying to hatch dragons ever.

 No. Not every good character in the books are secretly evil.  Also, why would anyone try to hatch dragons after the failure at summerhall? Aerys was mad, not stupid. 

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aegon V was about to bind dragons to House Targaryens blood again?

There were no dragons to bind. you can look at it figuratively and say that Rhaegar, a dragon was born/hatched at summerhall. And he did die trying to protect his house. 

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

252ac- Br is lost beyond the wall.   Does he meet Leaf then? 

He may have met leaf. He may have met another not-elf. I don't think it matters who he met or who gave him the tree merging weirwood paste. He is the master and bran is his student. Like in a kung fu movie. 

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Is Woods Witch Leafs child? Did they send Woods Witch a vision?

Probably not. The only interspecies hybrids mentioned are Ibbenese/non-ibbenese children and they are like mules, only one direction is fertile. 
Albinism is magical in ASOIAF. Ghost, Weirwoods. The Ghost of High heart. All very magical. An albino dwarf would easily appear to be a child of the forest to a modern westerosi because one hasn't been seen south of the wall since the andals first came. As for visions, she has lots of them. nobody needs to send her anything. She has it all herself. And she has been 100% correct. Only her and patchface have 10/10 magical vision. 

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

BR's plans averted by Ser Duncan the Tall? 

Bloodraven is not a master manipulator in a tree. if he was, there would be no story as he could just plant visions into everyone's head and make them do what he wants. That would be as boring as having a political discussion with Lolys. 

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4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Some are found in Asshai, some in Kings Landing. Kings Landing being only 300 years old and them being an ancient guild, suggest Asshai is the place of origin.

 

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Any evidence of them being found anywhere else but KL

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden.

They are found in Qarth too, but since there is a pyromancers guild in Kings landing that has relationships with the ruling dynasty, it is more than safe to say they are westerosi

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20 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I fixed the list for you

That does not fix it or help. The dragons being born in the result of the other things you changed. Rhaego was born/died in the dothraki sea before the pyre.

 

21 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Rhaegar was not born yet, so he could not be a sacrifice

He was born at Summerhall. You dont know the order of events. He was born amidst the fires is all we know. Maybe Aegon was gonna burn the mother as she was birthing? We dont know those details yet, and can only speculate. But it is definitely possible that the fire as started on accident trying to get to and save Rhaella as she was birthing.

 

23 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There were no dragons to bind. you can look at it figuratively and say that Rhaegar, a dragon was born/hatched at summerhall. And he did die trying to protect his house.

There would have been if he had done the ritual right and sacrificed Rhaegar. As in the case with Dany and Rhaego being sacrificed. 

 

24 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He may have met leaf. He may have met another not-elf. I don't think it matters who he met or who gave him the tree merging weirwood paste. He is the master and bran is his student. Like in a kung fu movie.

Maybe maybe not. Some would say BR is the master manipulator. Over say Varys or LF. 

 

25 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Probably not. The only interspecies hybrids mentioned are Ibbenese/non-ibbenese children and they are like mules, only one direction is fertile. 
Albinism is magical in ASOIAF. Ghost, Weirwoods. The Ghost of High heart. All very magical. An albino dwarf would easily appear to be a child of the forest to a modern westerosi because one hasn't been seen south of the wall since the andals first came. As for visions, she has lots of them. nobody needs to send her anything. She has it all herself. And she has been 100% correct. Only her and patchface have 10/10 magical vision. 

And yet the Lengii sound like human children hybrids. If the Giants can, the children can.

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20 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

 

They are found in Qarth too, but since there is a pyromancers guild in Kings landing that has relationships with the ruling dynasty, it is more than safe to say they are westerosi

Except they are an Ancient guild. Ancient implying longer than 300 years ago which does not classify as ancient. So they thus likely predate K.L.

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37 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

 

They are found in Qarth too, but since there is a pyromancers guild in Kings landing that has relationships with the ruling dynasty, it is more than safe to say they are westerosi

an·cient1
ˈān(t)SHənt/
adjective
belonging to the very distant past and no longer in existence.
"the ancient civilizations of the Mediterranean"
  synonyms:of long ago, early, prehistoric, primeval, primordial, primitive; More
 
 
 
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Quote

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

There was most certainly a plan for a sacrifice- remember there’s also the parallel of Dany being near birth, and the drama in Drogo’s tent ( fighting with his blood riders)  throwing her into labor...very similar to what we see with Rhaella. 

That conflict in Dany’s story leads me to believe that yes, there was a faction at Summerhall that was opposed to what Egg was doing, and just like Drogo’s blood riders, tried to stop it.   In the aftermath, baby Rhaego died (so we’re told), but baby Rhaegar lived.

There are already very clear and rock solid parallels between Dany’s tent ritual w/ MMD and what we know about Ned’s encounter at the TOJ-  I haven’t plugged Summerhall into the pattern yet, but I am quite confident that this event would fit nicely and be the FIRST of three blood sacrifice rituals.   The first two failed because the Targs heading it up didn’t have the right recipe and/or combined with someone trying to shut it down.

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