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U.S. Politics: Gunnin' From The Long Arm of the Law


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1 hour ago, Inigima said:

This is pretty different, though, isn't it? You are continuing to commit a crime by remaining.

Incidentally, one argument I think is strongly in favor of Dreamers is the presumption of good faith on the part of the government. These are people who were told they could voluntarily register themselves and would not be deported. Good luck getting anyone to participate in any federal amnesty program of any kind again, ever.

Someone brought to the US during their formative years, legally or not and then raised there, is an American, no matter what the government thinks. There is no attachment to their parent's country. It would be cruel and unusual punishment to deport them.  

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4 hours ago, maarsen said:

Someone brought to the US during their formative years, legally or not and then raised there, is an American, no matter what the government thinks. There is no attachment to their parent's country. It would be cruel and unusual punishment to deport them.  

no. they are not citizens. just because they have broken the law for a long time doesnt give them squatters rights to citizenship. 

 

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5 hours ago, Inigima said:

FB, thanks for the indictment summaries, I was definitely not going to read the indictments myself. But... does any of this matter? Presumably most if not all of these people are well outside the reach of US law enforcement, no? And the indictments don't implicate anyone else not named in them.

It is very interesting to speculate why Mueller indicted the Russians, who will likely never see a day in court, why the indictment was released on a Friday, always considered the day to bury news, and why Rosenstein was the one chosen to stand there all alone, not surrounded by people from the FBI and the Justice Department, while he read out the indictments.

I think Mueller felt he had to shoot this cannon at the Russians. Russian meddling had to be acknowledged this way, don't you think? And there's so. much. information. in the indictment! And no question the Russian investigation is a hoax or a witch hunt, or Chinese intervention, or a 400 pound guy sitting on his bed in New Jersey. I hope this makes certain Congressmen stfu as well.

Many commentators also thought the indictment was a big message to the WH. Of course Trump has decided to broadcast this as proof of no collusion since the Russians started planning in 2014, but he obviously didn't read the indictment. 37 pages is just a bit too long for someone who won't even read the daily security updates. This indictment was about Russians, not Americans.

Every American should know what the Russians did in the election. In fact, I wish someone in Great Britain was looking at the events running up to the Brexit vote as well.

We don't know if this is the last indictment to be issued by Mueller. In fact, I highly doubt it.

Maybe it was done on a Friday to give Trump something to think about over a long weekend? :dunno:

I find the fact Rosenstein stood there all alone at the press conference very interesting. Done for a psychological impact, no? I think Mueller is into head games. He sent the FBI out in the middle of the night to break into Manafort's house, remember? Again, many commentators believe that bit of theatre will make it much more difficult for Trump to fire Rosenstein.

And it has been pointed out that he was very careful in the words he chose to describe what was in the document. He said no Americans knowingly colluded with Russians in THIS indictment. I believe there will be more indictments against Americans who colluded. There was an announcement about an indictment that everyone seems to have missed, an indictment and guilty plea by a guy who helped the Russians obtain false IDs. I did not hear whether or not he knew they were Russians.

Finally, I really wonder about how many updates Trump received from the FBI about the Russian investigation. We know he got information right after being elected, and I assume there were more after that. Yet Trump continued to call the investigation a hoax perpetrated by sore-loser Democrats, and the news reports about Russians all lies. I wonder if this indictment is a small window into the kinds of things Trump was told about, and if his year-long rant against the investigation will lead to a final report that says his actions were a subversion of justice.

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11 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Unless you’re in a Dickensian novel, the crimes of your parent do not make you culpable. 

So no it’s not illegal, because if my dad gets a speeding ticket while eight year old me is riding in the car with him, and he never pays it, I am not equally culpable and responsible. I have not committed the same crime.

that is the essence of the republican argument on dreamers: children should be held responsible for their parents crimes. And children should be equally guilty of crimes their parents committed. 

Its a horrific standard for the law to take and one we should vigorously resist even if this were not just a bunch of racist republicans behaving in terrible ways. The legal standard the republicans are demanding is a profound assault on the foundations of functioning civil society, and could certainly be used in a myriad of other ways against the republicans political enemies.

For millennia that's exactly how it worked out -- whole families were held responsible and punished for an individual's crimes or treachery or anything perceived as such.  In fact it still takes place in the former soviet union, Saudi, etc. (note: these are all the sorts of societies and run by the sorts that the orange idjiot admires).

One aspect that hung on the longest here in the US was the stigmata of 'bastards' and even children of a marriage in which the partners divorced.  The way children of unmarried parents were treated in European and particularly anglo saxon societies from later medieval times through the nineteenth century and into the 20th is appalling and horribly sinful, if not criminal.

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45 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

It is very interesting to speculate why Mueller indicted the Russians, who will likely never see a day in court, why the indictment was released on a Friday, always considered the day to bury news, and why Rosenstein was the one chosen to stand there all alone, not surrounded by people from the FBI and the Justice Department, while he read out the indictments.

I

He had to get the facts out there, facts that include the facts that the Russians are already meddling with the 2018 elections.  It cannot be repeated often enough, for a long enough period of time, in enough venues to get this word out, to hopefully finally get the US voters thinking about what it means for Russia to be running this country, getting elections to go the way they want.

Also, this is merely a platform that connects to other platforms of nefarious and criminal actions by people here in the US.  It's essential to have learned this to move on to who in the present regime knew what and when they knew it and how and why they abetted it -- from various forms of corruption, money laundering, coverups, lies (under oath), indebtedness to Putin's banks, corps and etc.

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7 hours ago, Inigima said:

This is pretty different, though, isn't it? You are continuing to commit a crime by remaining.

Incidentally, one argument I think is strongly in favor of Dreamers is the presumption of good faith on the part of the government. These are people who were told they could voluntarily register themselves and would not be deported. Good luck getting anyone to participate in any federal amnesty program of any kind again, ever.

They are continuing to commit the crime of living in the only country they've ever known? This is fucking ridiculous.

These people were raised in the US. A bunch of them don't even speak the language of the places they were brought from. WTF are you expecting them to do?

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1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

It is very interesting to speculate why Mueller indicted the Russians, who will likely never see a day in court, why the indictment was released on a Friday, always considered the day to bury news,

Friday hasn't been a day to bury news for like ... at least a year now. Friday is the big news reveal day. Mostly, I've seen it speculated, because it means it dominates the news cycle all weekend and makes it difficult for others to respond.

Mueller has, as my memory has it, consistently dropped bombs on Friday.

 

They've also been very careful to state that this indictment has no americans or willing colludesr. They clearly have evidence on people actively working with the Russians. I believe the point of this is to get the news out there about this shit. In part to help establish a narrative about Russian interference in the election so that when they begin to target americans with indictments, the groundwork is already laid.

I think a lot of these are also basically warning shots. They are smacking this zenga tower, weakening it's structure, waiting for the whole thing to fall as people see the noose coming and start cutting deals.

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Parkland School student call BS on politicians.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/gun-control-teenage-advocates/index.html?sr=twCNN021718gun-control-teenage-advocates0150PMStory 

You know, the parents wept and they fulminated and they demanded after their babies were slaughtered at Sandy Hook. The politicians did -- nothing. Those kids were too young to speak themselves. 

These kids are not too young.  These kids have grown up with the awareness that any day somebody with a gun might show up and kill them anywhere, and particularly at school.  Imagine that . . . .

We stand with them, particularly when they call politicians funded by the NRA, which is probably greatly funded by Russians -- BS!

And to call DACA students criminals?????????  Anyone who does this, does s/he have any idea what criminal and crime are?????????????????????????

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Law and order types seriously can fuck off with your sheepish bs. 

I have no doubt the ones dehumanizing people to just illegals breaking a law would have supported the holocaust, slavery, segregation as well as concentration camps for Japanese Americans since those were all legal actions taken by governments.

Falling back on law and order regarding people is extremely bigoted.

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I'm Jewish. I would not describe myself as a Holocaust supporter. (Nor do I support segregation or slavery, of course.) That accusation is unhinged from reality.

I don't support deporting Dreamers. I think it's bad policy and I agree it's cruel. But I don't think it's a winning issue for Democrats politically and it's strange to me that this is the issue they've chosen to finally take a stand on.

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1 hour ago, Inigima said:

I'm Jewish. I would not describe myself as a Holocaust supporter. (Nor do I support segregation or slavery, of course.) That accusation is unhinged from reality.

I don't support deporting Dreamers. I think it's bad policy and I agree it's cruel. But I don't think it's a winning issue for Democrats politically and it's strange to me that this is the issue they've chosen to finally take a stand on.


Dems aren't white enough for you eh? 

Give me a break. They aren't winning Trump voters. Time for the naive centrists to grasp this.

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1 hour ago, Inigima said:

I'm Jewish. I would not describe myself as a Holocaust supporter. (Nor do I support segregation or slavery, of course.) That accusation is unhinged from reality.

I don't support deporting Dreamers. I think it's bad policy and I agree it's cruel. But I don't think it's a winning issue for Democrats politically and it's strange to me that this is the issue they've chosen to finally take a stand on.

Ini. Jace loves ya. Really, she does.

But Dems already punted DACA by agreeing to a budget deal. Yesterday was McConnell's deadline for debate on the issue.

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10 hours ago, maarsen said:

Someone brought to the US during their formative years, legally or not and then raised there, is an American, no matter what the government thinks. There is no attachment to their parent's country. It would be cruel and unusual punishment to deport them.  

Out of interest, how does the DACA stuff fly with the minimum age of criminal responsibility? I know 33 states don't have one, but if a DACA recipient is living in say, North Carolina and was under 7 when they were brought into the country, how can they be held responsible for the "criminal" act of their parents? Or does their status as a non-American simply mean that doesn't apply in any capacity?

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6 hours ago, Frog Eater said:

no. they are not citizens. just because they have broken the law for a long time doesnt give them squatters rights to citizenship. 

 

Say your kid was relocated to a new country at the age of five.  They grew up there, had a childhood, became an adult, had a job, a significant other; in short a life.  What law did they break?  Are they supposed to save up as children to return to their 'homeland' upon their majority?  Are they supposed to abandon their life here  [because] you sought a better life for them?  What the fuck exactly are they supposed to do?  Go somewhere they don't even remember?  

 

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9 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Say your kid was relocated to a new country at the age of five.  They grew up there, had a childhood, became an adult, had a job, a significant other; in short a life.  What law did they break?  Are they supposed to save up as children to return to their 'homeland' upon their majority?  Are they supposed to abandon their life here  [because] you sought a better life for them?  What the fuck exactly are they supposed to do?  Go somewhere they don't even remember?  

 

Zey must follow ze LAW!

Zat ist all ve hav! Make ze trains run on ze time!

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4 hours ago, Shryke said:

They are continuing to commit the crime of living in the only country they've ever known? This is fucking ridiculous.

These people were raised in the US. A bunch of them don't even speak the language of the places they were brought from. WTF are you expecting them to do?

We have a case in Canada where a child, who was brought here by a parent at a very young age, was removed from his family by Children's Aid and put into foster care. Upon reaching 18 and becoming an adult, as a ward of the state, he should have had an application for citizenship put in by his  guardian, the provincial government. Unfortunately they did not, and after being convicted of a crime was he supposed to be deported back to a country he never knew.  The case is now being appealed. This is a travesty of justice. Multiply this by 4000000 and you have the Dreamers. 

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4 minutes ago, maarsen said:

We have a case in Canada where a child, who was brought here by a parent at a very young age, was removed from his family by Children's Aid and put into foster care. Upon reaching 18 and becoming an adult, as a ward of the state, he should have had an application for citizenship put in by his  guardian, the provincial government. Unfortunately they did not, and after being convicted of a crime was he supposed to be deported back to a country he never knew.  The case is now being appealed. This is a travesty of justice. Multiply this by 4000000 and you have the Dreamers. 

There is absolutely zero reason that in this day and age of information our governments cannot apply simple morality in irregular cases.

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He's gone Galt! It's tough out there for libertarian billionaire vampires I guess.

Quote

 


But in Thiel’s telling, things are not going well at all. On Thursday, The Wall Street Journal reported that Thiel was breaking up with Silicon Valley. Having spent the past several years criticizing the tech community for what he sees as its ideological conformity and for its suppression of conservative voices, Thiel will now be based a 45-minute plane ride away, in Los Angeles.

It’s a symbolic break, as much as anything—and if Thiel is looking for a libertarian utopia overlooking the Sunset Strip, where he has a $11.5 million home, he’s been misinformed. (His actual plans for a libertarian utopia at sea seems more realistic.) But Thiel’s departure from Silicon Valley nevertheless underscores a core part of the ideology that has guided him over the past decade: He’s convinced that he and other conservatives are being victimized by Big Tech’s liberal culture.

 

Peter Thiel’s Lonely Culture War
Is the billionaire, libertarian, tech luminary being oppressed?


https://newrepublic.com/article/147109/peter-thiels-lonely-culture-war

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