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Ancient Kings


Seams

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Do you see any parallels between ancient kings (or descendants of ancient kings) and our contemporary main characters? Does GRRM use the stories of ancient kings the same way he uses Old Nan's stories, songs and legends as metaphors and allegories for the events unfolding in ASOIAF? Or are there fine distinctions among these metaphorical resources - an ancient king might serve a unique purpose compared to a character in a song, for instance, or a legend.

In a recent thread, I threw this in as a tangent to a different discussion:

On 1/29/2018 at 2:28 PM, Seams said:

One of these days, we should have a thread about ancient kings. I have this feeling that GRRM has gotten us to focus all of our attention on Blackfyre vs. Targs, and then he will surprise us with some plot that follows the First Men or a Velaryon uprising or something we are not expecting.

A few weeks earlier, I thought I recognized a potential connection between the Darklyns, descendants of ancient kings, and the Starks: 

On 1/5/2018 at 0:06 PM, Seams said:

I think the Defiance of Duskendale may be a parallel for Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage at the inn at the crossroads. Ned would be Denys Darklyn, Catelyn would be the Myrish wife who is blamed for the whole catastrophe, Tyrion would be Aerys. Then the parallels start to be interesting. Ser Barriston single-handedly rescued Aerys, which would make Bronn the parallel figure in the contemporary story.

Dontos Hollard is essentially the sole survivor of the Defiance of Duskendale, spared at the request of Ser Barristan and, later, at the request of Sansa Stark. Who is the sole survivor of the contemporary Stark "uprising"? As far as the characters know at this point in the story, Sansa is the sole surviving Stark. (Many people openly admit and others probably secretly know that Ramsay's bride, "Arya," is a convenient fake.)

Is Ser Dontos supposed to be compared to Sansa? Has Sansa been turned from a knight into a fool as she survives the various threats to her safety in King's Landing and the Eyrie? Of course, her changing role isn't literally a change from knight to fool - maybe the parallel change is that she goes from being a highborn piece in the cyvasse game of arranged marriages to being a natural daughter of a lower-born lord.

Catelyn and Robb have an important conversation at the sepulcher of Tristifer Mudd just before the Red Wedding and Merrett Frey later meets his demise at the same location. Why did GRRM associate these events with the ancient king?

Nimble Dick Crabb tells Brienne about his ancestor, Clarence Crabb, a huge man and highly successful warrior. Clarence took the heads of his defeated foes and brought them home to his woods witch wife, who was able to reanimate the heads. They were lined up on shelves and provided advice to Clarence. The closing line in the Nimble Dick chapter says, "down below the ground the heads of forgotten kings whispered secrets."

The wisdom of dead kings reminds me of the Stark crypt, where Stark children play and learn about history from Maester Luwin. I see some interesting parallels between Nimble Dick Crab and Bran (I'll write them up some day). Like the Darklyns, are the Crabbs a metaphorical version of the Starks? Maybe the disembodied heads at The Whispers match up with the dragon skulls the Targaryens kept in the throne room.

Which other stories of ancient kings can you link to contemporary Westeros people and events? I'm particularly interested in the kings of the First Men, but I imagine there are some good Targ precedents that haven't been examined.

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I don't think there's anything specific about the kings or that there's any code to it. General foreshadowing and paralleling in whatever manner it came to GRRM's mind. But I guess they'll have a theme by necessity in how the story progresses. They're basically all going to be foreshadowing something about either Jon on his march south or the entity he is defeating/absorbing on his march south. The realm is likely going to fracture harshly before Jon puts it back together, probably reverting back to multiple lords becoming their own kings, and that's what all the kings might be foreshadowing.

At least for those north of KL.

The most pressing foreshadowing that there will be multiple petty kings in Jon's path south is the female character whose name I can not recall but is an Arya parallel who sent a handful of kings to the wall after defeating them. Arya is coming south with Jon.

Oh and Hugor of the Hill is obviously foreshadowing Tyrion's rise to the IT and that it will be particularly the power of the Faith of the Seven that sees him there.

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17 hours ago, Seams said:

A few weeks earlier, I thought I recognized a potential connection between the Darklyns, descendants of ancient kings, and the Starks: 

Catelyn and Robb have an important conversation at the sepulcher of Tristifer Mudd just before the Red Wedding and Merrett Frey later meets his demise at the same location. Why did GRRM associate these events with the ancient king?

Real cool idea for a topic dude!

Tris and Robb have quite a few interesting parallels:

  • Mudd was a First Man King who ruled from the Neck to the Trident, while Robb was King of the North and Rivers, with his Kingdom (post Theon betrayal) pretty much encompassing the same area as Tristifer's.
  • Both fought against heavy odds - Robb fighting the IT and Mudd waging war with Andal invaders.
  • Tris was a bearded man known as the Hammer of Justice (cracker of a nickname), while Robb - named for the Warhammer weilding Bobby B - grew some whiskers of his own.
  • Robb and Tristifer both beheaded significant enemies - Roland II Arryn for the Hammer and Rickard Karstark for the Young Wolf.
  • They each had a pal named Edmure Tully.
  • Both suffered a form of betrayal from close allies - the Red Wedding for Robb, while Tristifer's associate Edmure Tully appeared to gain favour with the Andals, after the First Man King died.
  • Both won all the battles they fought, bar one - that single defeat spelling the end of their respective rules.

 

17 hours ago, Seams said:

Nimble Dick Crabb tells Brienne about his ancestor, Clarence Crabb, a huge man and highly successful warrior. Clarence took the heads of his defeated foes and brought them home to his woods witch wife, who was able to reanimate the heads. They were lined up on shelves and provided advice to Clarence. The closing line in the Nimble Dick chapter says, "down below the ground the heads of forgotten kings whispered secrets."

The wisdom of dead kings reminds me of the Stark crypt, where Stark children play and learn about history from Maester Luwin. I see some interesting parallels between Nimble Dick Crab and Bran (I'll write them up some day). Like the Darklyns, are the Crabbs a metaphorical version of the Starks? Maybe the disembodied heads at The Whispers match up with the dragon skulls the Targaryens kept in the throne room.

Which other stories of ancient kings can you link to contemporary Westeros people and events? I'm particularly interested in the kings of the First Men, but I imagine there are some good Targ precedents that haven't been examined.

Nice interpretation of the similarities between the Crabbs, Starks and Targs. B)

I think you are spot on with the comparison between the Crypts, Whispers and Throne Room. Let's not forget that the Whispers lye on Crackclaw Point - claws obviously being present in crabs, wolves and dragons. All three houses also suffer some form of "cracking", rendering them less able to fight back.

The "forgotten kings below" aspect works with the Targs too, considering some of their bloodline were said to have had their ashes interned beneath the Red Keep. A dragon skull could certainly be called royalty too - Meleys the Red Queen; same goes for a Direwolf at some King of Winter's stony feet - "a second life fit for a King".

We also have another Darklyn/Stark comparison in that both Robb Stark and Lord Denys Darklyn's major follies are often said to be a result of their choice in spouses - Lady Seralda for Denys and Jeyne Westerling for the Young Wolf. Both women were from different, somewhat dodgy areas to their partners - fabricator's paradise Myr and the Lannister influenced Westerlands.

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I think the George uses his fake history to do three things... to provide backstory for the current plot, like the Blackfyre stuff, to allude to real world history, like the Broken Arm and Beringia, and foreshadowing, like Zhea and Lo Bu and Daenerys and Aegon. 

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On 2/15/2018 at 9:29 PM, chrisdaw said:

Oh and Hugor of the Hill is obviously foreshadowing Tyrion's rise to the IT and that it will be particularly the power of the Faith of the Seven that sees him there.

The "obviously" part doesn't leap out at me yet. Among his many aliases in Essos, Tyrion chooses this name. So I see the connection to Tyrion. But I don't know how the leap will be made that Tyrion follows Hugor's path to the Iron Throne. Do you have some details worked out that you could share?

I have been pondering whether Ser Hugh of the Vale is supposed to be some kind of opposite number to Hugor of the Hill. Ser Hugh was killed by Ser Gregor Clegane, so that makes him the victim of a "Mountain".

Hugor is also called Hukko, according to the TWOIAF and the wiki. The singers say that he slew the swan maidens as sacrifices to the seven gods. Swans are associated with Arya. Do you think the Hukko story foreshadows a conflict between Tyrion and Arya?

I found an old comment I cobbled together with some thoughts about the faith of the Seven and its future role in Westeros. At the time, I was apparently leaning toward a reversion to beliefs older than the new gods, perhaps even older than the old gods:

 

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On 2/15/2018 at 11:59 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

Of particular note are the ancient kings in Dany's vision.  Ancient kings carrying swords of pale fire lined the hallway and encouraged Dany to run faster towards the red door.  These kings were not the Targaryen kings of Westeros. 

Interesting point. I believe this is the way the author describes them:

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward.

In the dream, Dany is trying to reach the red door but she instead "wakes the dragon" and flies.

Are you sure they are not Targaryen kings of Westeros?

My own interpretation is that the ghosts are dragons or symbolic dragons, so there does seem to be a close fit with Targ kings. (Leo of House Cartel makes this same dragon / king comparison, above.) The Targaryen throne room was filled with dragon skulls, which are like ghosts. I have always assumed that the author wants us to think of the Winterfell crypt - with iron swords and stone direwolves - as similar to the Targ throne room. (Or the lower level of the Red Keep after Robert Baratheon takes the throne.)

It's interesting that the ghosts with swords of pale fire serve the same function for Dany that is served by the three-eyed crow in Bran's falling dream when he is in a coma at Winterfell. I wonder whether Bran's three-eyed crow is also a ghost king of sorts?

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On 2/16/2018 at 3:07 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Real cool idea for a topic dude!

Tris and Robb have quite a few interesting parallels:

  • Mudd was a First Man King who ruled from the Neck to the Trident, while Robb was King of the North and Rivers, with his Kingdom (post Theon betrayal) pretty much encompassing the same area as Tristifer's.
  • Both fought against heavy odds - Robb fighting the IT and Mudd waging war with Andal invaders.
  • Tris was a bearded man known as the Hammer of Justice (cracker of a nickname), while Robb - named for the Warhammer weilding Bobby B - grew some whiskers of his own.
  • Robb and Tristifer both beheaded significant enemies - Roland II Arryn for the Hammer and Rickard Karstark for the Young Wolf.
  • They each had a pal named Edmure Tully.
  • Both suffered a form of betrayal from close allies - the Red Wedding for Robb, while Tristifer's associate Edmure Tully appeared to gain favour with the Andals, after the First Man King died.
  • Both won all the battles they fought, bar one - that single defeat spelling the end of their respective rules.

These are excellent! Thank you for this thoughtful list. I had looked at the things in the chapter to try to understand Tristifer, but I should have looked at the history. Those are some strong correlations.

I wonder what it means that Tristifer used a warhammer, like Robert Baratheon? And that the hammer was associated with justice. The justice theme is an early message in the books, with Ned administering the King's justice to the deserter Gared.

Robb used a sword, not a warhammer, and he never got his hands on Ice. But maybe that's not connected to the Robb / Tristifer parallels.

Asha has an old friend named Tristifer Botley. I wonder whether or how he will be tied in with the same ancient king?

On 2/16/2018 at 3:07 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

I think you are spot on with the comparison between the Crypts, Whispers and Throne Room. Let's not forget that the Whispers lye on Crackclaw Point - claws obviously being present in crabs, wolves and dragons. All three houses also suffer some form of "cracking", rendering them less able to fight back.

Lions also have claws!

This is a little off the ancient king point, but I was interested to note a strong similarity between House Brune (Bruin?), passed by Brienne and Nimble Dick and Pod as they near Crackclaw Point, and Bear Isle of the Mormonts. Recall that Mormont crushed a crab claw with his bare (bear?) fist when Tyrion was sharing the crab feast with the officers of the Night's Watch. I wonder whether Mormonts have played a role in cracking all of the "claw" houses?

Although I guess bears have claws, too. Hence the sword, Longclaw . . .

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

Hugor is also called Hukko, according to the TWOIAF and the wiki. The singers say that he slew the swan maidens as sacrifices to the seven gods. Swans are associated with Arya. Do you think the Hukko story foreshadows a conflict between Tyrion and Arya?

:stunned: Yikes. I’ve always wondered at Arya’s lack of relationship with Tyrion as Jon, Bran and Sansa all have a mostly favorable relationship with him which seems like it will important later in the story.

Because of the passages below, I’ve always associated swan more with Cersei than Arya. Comparing/contrasting their swan association would be an interesting path to explore. The battling swans/ black and white swans might be important.

 

Tyrion can't see swan without thinking of Cersei. Cersei serves him swan before the Battle of the Blackwater. During the battle, Tyrion sees Balon Swans of the battling swans but initially thinks it's Mandon Moore who will later try to kill him. Tyrion gets served swan at the Purple Wedding which he associates with Cersei and we know what was in the works there for Tyrion. While eating with Illyrio, Tyrion is served swan again which he again links to Cersei. For all three of these instances, we also have mushrooms. Cersei's swan is stuffed with mushrooms, the first meal at the Purple Wedding is mushroom soup and Tyrion is famished so he eats it all. There's an extensive back and forth between Illyrio and Tyrion about poisoned mushrooms. All three also involve uncles usurping nephews and nieces. Before Blackwater, Tyrion notes that Cersei thinks Tyrion means to kill Joff. At the Purple Wedding, Tyrion is framed for killing Joff. Just previous in ASOS Sansa IV, Oberyn brings up Viserys poisoning nephew Baelor. Illyrio brings up "to crown her is to kill her" in regards to Myrcella. 

 

 

ACOK Tyrion XII (night before the Battle of Blackwater where Mandon Moore nearly killed Tyrion)

Cersei set a tasty table, that could not be denied. They started with a creamy chestnut soup, crusty hot bread, and greens dressed with apples and pine nuts. Then came lamprey pie, honeyed ham, buttered carrots, white beans and bacon, and roast swan stuffed with mushrooms and oysters. Tyrion was exceedingly courteous; he offered his sister the choice portions of every dish, and made certain he ate only what she did. Not that he truly thought she'd poison him, but it never hurt to be careful.

...

As the swan was being served, the queen questioned him about the conspiracy of the Antler Men. She seemed more annoyed than afraid. "Why are we plagued with so many treasons? What injury has House Lannister ever done these wretches?"

"None," said Tyrion, "but they think to be on the winning side . . . which makes them fools as well as traitors."

"Are you certain you've found them all?"

"Varys says so." The swan was too rich for his taste.

A line appeared on Cersei's pale white brow, between those lovely eyes. "You put too much trust in that eunuch."

...

Serving men cleared away the swan, hardly touched. Cersei beckoned for the sweet. "I hope you like blackberry tarts."

"I love all sorts of tarts."

"Oh, I've known that a long while. Do you know why Varys is so dangerous?"

 ...

"And the whore?" He would not call her by name. If I can convince her Shae means nothing to me, perhaps . . .

"She'll be treated gently enough, so long as no harm comes to my sons. If Joff should be killed, however, or if Tommen should fall into the hands of our enemies, your little cunt will die more painfully than you can possibly imagine."

She truly believes I mean to kill my own nephew. "The boys are safe," he promised her wearily. "Gods be good, Cersei, they're my own blood! What sort of man do you take me for?"

 

 

ACOK Tyrion XIV (A swan appears and Tyrion initially thinks it’s Mandon Moore who will later try to kill him)

A man-at-arms grabbed the bridle of his horse and thrust at Tyrion's face with a dagger. He knocked the blade aside and buried the axe in the nape of the man's neck. As he was wresting it free, a blaze of white appeared at the edge of his vision. Tyrion turned, thinking to find Ser Mandon Moore beside him again, but this was a different white knight. Ser Balon Swann wore the same armor, but his horse trappings bore the battling black-and-white swans of his House. He's more a spotted knight than a white one, Tyrion thought inanely. Every bit of Ser Balon was spattered with gore and smudged by smoke. He raised his mace to point downriver. Bits of brain and bone clung to its head. "My lord, look."

 

 

 

ASOS Tyrion VIII (Joff’s wedding feast where there were plans underway to frame and execute Tyrion)

The first dish was a creamy soup of mushrooms and buttered snails, served in gilded bowls. Tyrion had scarcely touched the breakfast, and the wine had already gone to his head, so the food was welcome. He finished quickly. One done, seventy-six to come. Seventy-seven dishes, while there are still starving children in this city, and men who would kill for a radish. They might not love the Tyrells half so well if they could see us now.

...

Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with fiery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. ("Not swan again," Tyrion muttered, remembering his supper with his sister on the eve of battle.) A juggler kept a half-dozen swords and axes whirling through the air as skewers of blood sausage were brought sizzling to the tables, a juxtaposition that Tyrion thought passing clever, though not perhaps in the best of taste.  

 

ASOS Sansa IV (right before the Purple Wedding)

Oberyn gave a shrug. "A year or a fortnight, what does it matter? He poisoned his own nephew to gain the throne and then did nothing once he had it."

"Baelor starved himself to death, fasting," said Tyrion. "His uncle served him loyally as Hand, as he had served the Young Dragon before him. Viserys might only have reigned a year, but he ruled for fifteen, while Daeron warred and Baelor prayed." He made a sour face. "And if he did remove his nephew, can you blame him? Someone had to save the realm from Baelor's follies."

 

 

ADWD Tyrion I (Conflict between Illyrio and Tyrion is thinly veiled with Illyrio openly speculating about killing Tyrion with mushrooms in the guise of helping him as he’s drinking himself to death at this point in the story or helping Tyrion realize he doesn’t really want to kill himself depending on your take. Kinslaying is also present here. To crown her (niece Myrcella) is to kill her is also brought up. Buttered snails figure prominently in this scene like in the Purple Wedding). 

There were seven of the mushrooms. Perhaps the Seven were trying to tell him something. He picked them all, snatched a glove down from the line, wrapped them carefully, and stuffed them down his pocket. The effort made him dizzy, so afterward he crawled back onto the bench, curled up, and shut his eyes.

...

The serving men brought out a heron stuffed with figs, veal cutlets blanched with almond milk, creamed herring, candied onions, foul-smelling cheeses, plates of snails and sweetbreads, and a black swan in her plumage. Tyrion refused the swan, which reminded him of a supper with his sister. He helped himself to heron and herring, though, and a few of the sweet onions. And the serving men filled his wine cup anew each time he emptied it.

The dwarf studied the dish before him. The smell of garlic and butter had his mouth watering. Some part of him wanted those mushrooms, even knowing what they were. He was not brave enough to take cold steel to his own belly, but a bite of mushroom would not be so hard. That frightened him more than he could say. "You mistake me," he heard himself say.

 ...

The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this." 

Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. "Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least."

 

Arya notes that she both wants to be the swan and at the same time eat the swan which has the same dark tone linked to Tyrion's/Cersei's swans.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

The "obviously" part doesn't leap out at me yet. Among his many aliases in Essos, Tyrion chooses this name. So I see the connection to Tyrion. But I don't know how the leap will be made that Tyrion follows Hugor's path to the Iron Throne. Do you have some details worked out that you could share?

I have been pondering whether Ser Hugh of the Vale is supposed to be some kind of opposite number to Hugor of the Hill. Ser Hugh was killed by Ser Gregor Clegane, so that makes him the victim of a "Mountain".

Hugor is also called Hukko, according to the TWOIAF and the wiki. The singers say that he slew the swan maidens as sacrifices to the seven gods. Swans are associated with Arya. Do you think the Hukko story foreshadows a conflict between Tyrion and Arya?

Not much in isolation but then there's not much to Hugor and it having been given directly to Tyrion there's no point looking elsewhere. The wife is obviously a dead ringer for Sansa and plays to her maiden association. And because Hugor was an Essos character but GRRM is trying to use him to foreshadow Westeros things GRRM relates it back with a geographical parallel for the extent of Hugor's realm, northern mountains to southern marches, and that his descendants would rule far away realms.

The case is probably best made with respect to Jaehaerys. Jaehaerys, well travelled as Tyrion, visited the wall, great builder of drains as Tyrion was an overseer, a thinker and more diplomat than fighter like Tyrion, was notably estranged from his wife (twice) like Tyrion and Sansa. Where it runs into Hugor of the Hill is first with the wife, Alysanne being the only Targ queen with blue eyes, and I think only Targ noted to have two blue eyes. Hugor's wife's eyes are particularly noted blue. Alysanne also runs into Sansa in obvious ways. And Jaehaerys and Hugor both have an affinity with the faith.

What will happen is Tyrion's reign will start out well and progressively fall apart, and by the time Jon comes south it will be a mess. Part of the reason Jon will be so successful is Tyrion will be focused elsewhere and on more important things, like southern rebellions and plagues. Arya will be marching with Jon so you might be right on the Swan score, but I'm thinking something else.

It's going to begin that Tyrion (and Sansa) will be the darling of the faith and they'll raise him. The HS is going to refuse to crown Dany and eventually when she's been booted out of town the HS (new one, Dany will probably roast the old one) will eventually crown Tyrion, that's probably why GRRM dwelt on the father crowning Hugor himself.

But as per Tyrion's quote, true believer septons are a problem, and partly why Tyrion's reign will be a failure is that the faith will be too powerful and he'll have to adhere to their desires. And I think that's what the swans are about. Possibly something like the faith demand Tyrion prevent the worship of other religions, which leads him to eventually order the deaths of some people. He will claim they were law breakers, but the people will know he did it because the victims worshipped other than the seven and the HS demanded he do it. Possibly first men old god followers.

Tyrion vs Jon is going to have a very Andals vs First Men flavour to it. Hence why Hugor of the Hill is a big Andal hero (likewise the Vale hero Tyrion is set to parallel), and that Jaehaerys story,

Quote

His Grace gave the babe a pearl ring off his finger to play with, and told the twins the story of how their great-great-grandsire and namesake Jaehaerys the Old King had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs. The children listened attentively. Afterward the king sent them away, pleading weariness. Then Viserys of House Targaryen, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, closed his eyes and went to sleep.

Wildlings, giants and wargs, that's Jon's army.

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I’ve noticed reading some of the other’s posts that I might be in a minority in seeing the books proper as elaborating (or correcting) the histories through parallels and symbols rather than the other way around.

With that in mind, I noticed that something else is happening every time Tyrion is served swan, and it’s women/whores/breasts (hills). More specifically, things aren’t going well in this department.

The histories aren’t accurate, or not completely anyhow because of bias, oral histories, whatnot. Hence why the books proper should be relied on more. As such, I think hill(breasts)/maiden(seduction & manipulation)/swan is being used to tell us what really might have happened and why when the swan maidens were sacrificed to the Seven by Hukko maybe Hugor Hill. Sorry for the text bombs, but I think this is kind of subtle.

I see the parallels in the story proper as a way to maybe tell the true telling of the story which may not be coming down to us correctly. As such, I think these three passages may be hinting at what really happened with Hukko maybe Hugor and the swan maidens and it seems to hint that the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant is now operating in this vein meaning instead of evolving into something new, they may be regressing.

ADWD Jaime I

"Aye, my lord. For a hundred years or so. Before that, they were the Mother's Teats, or just the Teats. There are two of them, and it was thought that they resembled …"

"I can see what they resemble." Jaime found himself thinking back on the woman in the tent and the way she'd tried to hide her large, dark nipples. "What changed a hundred years ago?"

"Aegon the Unworthy took Barba Bracken as his mistress," the bookish boy replied. "She was a very buxom wench, they say, and one day when the king was visiting at the Stone Hedge he went out hunting and saw the Teats and …"

"… named them for his mistress." Aegon the Fourth had died long before Jaime had been born, but he recalled enough of the history of his reign to guess what must have happened next. "Only later he put the Bracken girl aside and took up with a Blackwood, was that the way of it?"

 

ADWD Tyrion II

Tyrion slept and woke and slept again, and day and night seemed not to matter. The Velvet Hills proved a disappointment. "Half the whores in Lannisport have breasts bigger than these hills," he told Illyrio. "You ought to call them the Velvet Teats." They saw a circle of standing stones that Illyrio claimed had been raised by giants, and later a deep lake. "Here lived a den of robbers who preyed on all who passed this way," Illyrio said. "It is said they still dwell beneath the water. Those who fish the lake are pulled under and devoured." The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

 

 

 

1. Tyrion is first served swan before the Battle of Blackwater. Cersei flashes her breasts at Tyrion and says he thinks with his cock and is easy to manipulate. Later, Shae is wearing only the gold Hand of the King chain over her breasts and we know how that ends. No spoiler, just a lot of text. 

 

Spoiler

ACOK Tyrion XII (night before the Battle of Blackwater where Mandon Moore nearly killed Tyrion)

Serving men cleared away the swan, hardly touched. Cersei beckoned for the sweet. "I hope you like blackberry tarts."

"I love all sorts of tarts."

"Oh, I've known that a long while. Do you know why Varys is so dangerous?"

"Are we playing at riddles now? No."

"He doesn't have a cock."

"Neither do you." And don't you just hate that, Cersei?

"Perhaps I'm dangerous too. You, on the other hand, are as big a fool as every other man. That worm between your legs does half your thinking."

Tyrion licked the crumbs off his fingers. He did not like his sister's smile. "Yes, and just now my worm is thinking that perhaps it is time I took my leave."

"Are you unwell, brother?" She leaned forward, giving him a good look at the top of her breasts. "Suddenly you appear somewhat flustered."

"Flustered?" Tyrion glanced at the door. He thought he'd heard something outside. He was beginning to regret coming here alone. "You've never shown much interest in my cock before."

"It's not your cock that interests me, so much as what you stick it in. I don't depend on the eunuch for everything, as you do. I have my own ways of finding out things . . . especially things that people don't want me to know."

"What are you trying to say?"

"Only this—I have your little whore."

Tyrion reached for his wine cup, buying a moment to gather his thoughts. "I thought men were more to your taste."

"You're such a droll little fellow. Tell me, have you married this one yet?" When he gave her no answer she laughed and said, "Father will be ever so relieved."

His belly felt as if it were full of eels. How had she found Shae? Had Varys betrayed him? Or had all his precautions been undone by his impatience the night he rode directly to the manse? "Why should you care who I choose to warm my bed?"

"A Lannister always pays his debts," she said. "You've been scheming against me since the day you came to King's Landing. You sold Myrcella, stole Tommen, and now you plot to have Joff killed. You want him dead so you can rule through Tommen."

Well, I can't say the notion isn't tempting. "This is madness, Cersei. Stannis will be here in days. You need me."

"For what? Your great prowess in battle?"

"Bronn's sellswords will never fight without me," he lied.

"Oh, I think they will. It's your gold they love, not your impish wit. Have no fear, though, they won't be without you. I won't say I haven't thought of slitting your throat from time to time, but Jaime would never forgive me if I did."

"And the whore?" He would not call her by name. If I can convince her Shae means nothing to me, perhaps . . .

"She'll be treated gently enough, so long as no harm comes to my sons. If Joff should be killed, however, or if Tommen should fall into the hands of our enemies, your little cunt will die more painfully than you can possibly imagine."

She truly believes I mean to kill my own nephew. "The boys are safe," he promised her wearily. "Gods be good, Cersei, they're my own blood! What sort of man do you take me for?"

"A small and twisted one."

Tyrion stared at the dregs on the bottom of his wine cup. What would Jaime do in my place? Kill the bitch, most likely, and worry about the consequences afterward. But Tyrion did not have a golden sword, nor the skill to wield one. He loved his brother's reckless wrath, but it was their lord father he must try and emulate. Stone, I must be stone, I must be Casterly Rock, hard and unmovable. If I fail this test, I had as lief seek out the nearest grotesquerie. "For all I know, you've killed her already," he said.

"Would you like to see her? I thought you might." Cersei crossed the room and threw open the heavy oaken door. "Bring in my brother's whore."

Ser Osmund's brothers Osney and Osfryd were peas from the same pod, tall men with hooked noses, dark hair, and cruel smiles. She hung between them, eyes wide and white in her dark face. Blood trickled from her broken lip, and he could see bruises through her torn clothing. Her hands were bound with rope, and they'd gagged her so she could not speak.

"You said she wouldn't be hurt."

"She fought." Unlike his brothers, Osney Kettleblack was clean-shaven, so the scratches showed plainly on his bare cheeks. "Got claws like a shadowcat, this one."

"Bruises heal," said Cersei in a bored tone. "The whore will live. So long as Joff does."

Tyrion wanted to laugh at her. It would have been so sweet, so very very sweet, but it would have given the game away. You've lost, Cersei, and the Kettleblacks are even bigger fools than Bronn claimed. All he needed to do was say the words.

Instead he looked at the girl's face and said, "You swear you'll release her after the battle?"

"If you release Tommen, yes."

He pushed himself to his feet. "Keep her then, but keep her safe. If these animals think they can use her . . . well, sweet sister, let me point out that a scale tips two ways." His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he'd reached for his father's voice, and found it. "Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes." If she thinks me such a monster, I'll play the part for her.

Cersei had not expected that. "You would not dare."

Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. "Dare? I'll do it myself."

His sister's hand flashed at his face, but he caught her wrist and bent it back until she cried out. Osfryd moved to her rescue. "One more step and I'll break her arm," the dwarf warned him. The man stopped. "You remember when I said you'd never hit me again, Cersei?" He shoved her to the floor and turned back to the Kettleblacks. "Untie her and remove that gag."

The rope had been so tight as to cut off the blood to her hands. She cried out in pain as the circulation returned. Tyrion massaged her fingers gently until feeling returned. "Sweetling," he said, "you must be brave. I am sorry they hurt you."

"I know you'll free me, my lord."

"I will," he promised, and Alayaya bent over and kissed him on the brow. Her broken lips left a smear of blood on his forehead. A bloody kiss is more than I deserve, Tyrion thought. She would never have been hurt but for me.

Her blood still marked him as he looked down at the queen. "I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."

In war, his father had told him once, the battle is over in the instant one army breaks and flees. No matter that they're as numerous as they were a moment before, still armed and armored; once they had run before you they would not turn to fight again. So it was with Cersei. "Get out!" was all the answer she could summon. "Get out of my sight!"

Tyrion bowed. "Good night, then. And pleasant dreams."

He made his way back to the Tower of the Hand with a thousand armored feet marching through his skull. I ought to have seen this coming the first time I slipped through the back of Chataya's wardrobe. Perhaps he had not wanted to see. His legs were aching badly by the time he had made the climb. He sent Pod for a flagon of wine and pushed his way into his bedchamber.

Shae sat cross-legged in the canopied bed, nude but for the heavy golden chain that looped across the swell of her breasts: a chain of linked golden hands, each clasping the next.

Tyrion had not expected her. "What are you doing here?"

Laughing, she stroked the chain. "I wanted some hands on my titties . . . but these little gold ones are cold."

For a moment he did not know what to say. How could he tell her that another woman had taken the beating meant for her, and might well die in her place should some mischance of battle fell Joffrey? He wiped Alayaya's blood from his brow with the heel of his hand. "The Lady Lollys—"

"She's asleep. Sleep's all she ever wants to do, the great cow. She sleeps and she eats. Sometimes she falls asleep while she's eating. The food falls under the blankets and she rolls in it, and I have to clean her." She made a disgusted face. "All they did was fuck her."

"Her mother says she's sick."

"She has a baby in her belly, that's all."

Tyrion gazed around the room. Everything seemed much as he left it. "How did you enter? Show me the hidden door."

She gave a shrug. "Lord Varys made me wear a hood. I couldn't see, except . . . there was one place, I got a peep at the floor out the bottom of the hood. It was all tiles, you know, the kind that make a picture?"

"A mosaic?"

Shae nodded. "They were colored red and black. I think the picture was a dragon. Otherwise, everything was dark. We went down a ladder and walked a long ways, until I was all twisted around. Once we stopped so he could unlock an iron gate. I brushed against it when we went through. The dragon was past the gate. Then we went up another ladder, with a tunnel at the top. I had to stoop, and I think Lord Varys was crawling."

Tyrion made a round of the bedchamber. One of the sconces looked loose. He stood on his toes and tried to turn it. It revolved slowly, scraping against the stone wall. When it was upside down, the stub of the candle fell out. The rushes scattered across the cold stone floor did not show any particular disturbance. "Doesn't m'lord want to bed me?" asked Shae.

"In a moment." Tyrion threw open his wardrobe, shoved the clothing aside, and pushed against the rear panel. What worked for a whorehouse might work for a castle as well . . . but no, the wood was solid, unyielding. A stone beside the window seat drew his eye, but all his tugging and prodding went for naught. He returned to the bed frustrated and annoyed.

Shae undid his laces and threw her arms around his neck. "Your shoulders feel as hard as rocks," she murmured. "Hurry, I want to feel you inside me." Yet as her legs locked around his waist, his manhood left him. When she felt him go soft, Shae slid down under the sheets and took him in her mouth, but even that could not rouse him.

After a few moments he stopped her. "What's wrong?" she asked. All the sweet innocence of the world was written there in the lines of her young face.

Innocence? Fool, she's a whore, Cersei was right, you think with your cock, fool, fool.

"Just go to sleep, sweetling," he urged, stroking her hair. Yet long after Shae had taken his advice, Tyrion himself still lay awake, his fingers cupped over one small breast as he listened to her breathing.

 

 

2. The second time Tyrion gets swan served he’s at the Purple Wedding. Earlier that morning, Shae’s breasts are in his face and we know what she was up to. That she asks to see the pie served maybe hints at the extent of her involvement. Just before it’s served, Tyrion notices Sansa staring at Dontos and we know what’s happening there. The entertainment during the swan act is a juggler using axes, swords while skewered blood sausages are served which Tyrion notes is funny but inappropriate. He is becoming increasingly bitter as he has decided to give up Shae while he is realizing that not only will Sansa never love him, she can't even be a companion to him in any meaningful sense.

 

Spoiler

ASOS Tyrion VII (meeting Shae in the early morning in the room with the dragon skulls)

"You have to catch me." Her voice came from his left. "M'lord must have played monsters and maidens when he was little."

"Are you calling me a monster?"

"No more than I'm a maiden." She was behind him, her steps soft against the floor. "You need to catch me all the same."

He did, finally, but only because she let herself be caught. By the time she slipped into his arms, he was flushed and out of breath from stumbling into dragon skulls. All that was forgotten in an instant when he felt her small breasts pressed against his face in the dark, her stiff little nipples brushing lightly over his lips and the scar where his nose had been. Tyrion pulled her down onto the floor. "My giant," she breathed as he entered her. "My giant's come to save me."

After, as they lay entwined amongst the dragon skulls, he rested his head against her, inhaling the smooth clean smell of her hair. "We should go back," he said reluctantly. "It must be near dawn. Sansa will be waking."

"You should give her dreamwine," Shae said, "like Lady Tanda does with Lollys. A cup before she goes to sleep, and we could fuck in bed beside her without her waking." She giggled. "Maybe we should, some night. Would m'lord like that?" Her hand found his shoulder, and began to knead the muscles there. "Your neck is hard as stone. What troubles you?"

Tyrion could not see his fingers in front of his face, but he ticked his woes off on them all the same. "My wife. My sister. My nephew. My father. The Tyrells." He had to move to his other hand. "Varys. Pycelle. Littlefinger. The Red Viper of Dorne." He had come to his last finger. "The face that stares back out of the water when I wash."

Shae kissed his maimed scarred nose. "A brave face. A kind and good face. I wish I could see it now."

All the sweet innocence of the world was in her voice. Innocence? Fool, she's a whore, all she knows of men is the bit between their legs. Fool, fool. "Better you than me." Tyrion sat. "We have a long day before us, both of us. You shouldn't have blown out that taper. How are we to find our clothing?"

She laughed. "Maybe we'll have to go naked."

And if we're seen, my lord father will hang you. Hiring Shae as one of Sansa's maids had given him an excuse to be seen talking with her, but Tyrion did not delude himself that they were safe. Varys had warned him. "I gave Shae a false history, but it was meant for Lollys and Lady Tanda. Your sister is of a more suspicious mind. If she should ask me what I know . . ."

"You will tell her some clever lie."

"No. I will tell her that the girl is a common camp follower that you acquired before the battle on the Green Fork and brought to King's Landing against your lord father's express command. I will not lie to the queen."

"You have lied to her before. Shall I tell her that?"

The eunuch sighed. "That cuts more deeply than a knife, my lord. I have served you loyally, but I must also serve your sister when I can. How long do you think she would let me live if I were of no further use to her whatsoever? I have no fierce sellsword to protect me, no valiant brother to avenge me, only some little birds who whisper in my ear. With those whisperings I must buy my life anew each day."

"Pardon me if I do not weep for you."

"I shall, but you must pardon me if I do not weep for Shae. I confess, I do not understand what there is in her to make a clever man like you act such a fool."

"You might, if you were not a eunuch."

"Is that the way of it? A man may have wits, or a bit of meat between his legs, but not both?" Varys tittered. "Perhaps I should be grateful I was cut, then."

"Is that the way of it? A man may have wits, or a bit of meat between his legs, but not both?" Varys tittered. "Perhaps I should be grateful I was cut, then."

The Spider was right. Tyrion groped through the dragon-haunted darkness for his smallclothes, feeling wretched. The risk he was taking left him tight as a drumhead, and there was guilt as well. The Others can take my guilt, he thought as he slipped his tunic over his head. Why should I be guilty? My wife wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her. Perhaps he ought to tell her about Shae. It was not as though he was the first man ever to keep a concubine. Sansa's own oh-so-honorable father had given her a bastard brother. For all he knew, his wife might be thrilled to learn that he was fucking Shae, so long as it spared her his unwelcome touch.

No, I dare not. Vows or no, his wife could not be trusted. She might be maiden between the legs, but she was hardly innocent of betrayal; she had once spilled her own father's plans to Cersei. And girls her age were not known for keeping secrets.

The only safe course was to rid himself of Shae. I might send her to Chataya, Tyrion reflected, reluctantly. In Chataya's brothel, Shae would have all the silks and gems she could wish for, and the gentlest highborn patrons. It would be a better life by far than the one she had been living when he'd found her.

Or, if she was tired of earning her bread on her back, he might arrange a marriage for her. Bronn, perhaps? The sellsword had never balked at eating off his master's plate, and he was a knight now, a better match than she could elsewise hope for. Or Ser Tallad? Tyrion had noticed that one gazing wistfully at Shae more than once. Why not? He's tall, strong, not hard to look upon, every inch the gifted young knight. Of course, Tallad knew Shae only as a pretty young lady's maid in service at the castle. If he wed her and then learned she was a whore . . .

"M'lord, where are you? Did the dragons eat you up?"

"No. Here." He groped at a dragon skull. "I have found a shoe, but I believe it's yours."

"M'lord sounds very solemn. Have I displeased you?"

"No," he said, too curtly. "You always please me." And therein is our danger. He might dream of sending her away at times like this, but that never lasted long. Tyrion saw her dimly through the gloom, pulling a woolen sock up a slender leg. I can see. A vague light was leaking through the row of long narrow windows set high in the cellar wall. The skulls of the Targaryen dragons were emerging from the darkness around them, black amidst grey. "Day comes too soon." A new day. A new year. A new century. I survived the Green Fork and the Blackwater, I can bloody well survive King Joffrey's wedding.

Shae snatched her dress down off the dragon's tooth and slipped it over her head. "I'll go up first. Brella will want help with the bathwater." She bent over to give him one last kiss, upon the brow. "My giant of Lannister. I love you so."

And I love you as well, sweetling. A whore she might well be, but she deserved better than what he had to give her. I will wed her to Ser Tallad. He seems a decent man. And tall . . .

 

ASOS Sansa IV

"My father had no time for books." Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. "If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now." He laughed . . . and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. "Don't be sad, Sansa, once I've gotten Queen Margaery with child I'll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it's done."

Sansa reddened. She glanced nervously at Tyrion, afraid of what he might say. This could turn as nasty as the bedding had at their own feast. But for once the dwarf filled his mouth with wine instead of words.

 

 

ASOS Tyrion VIII

"My lady." Tyrion offered Sansa his arm. She took it dutifully, but he could feel her stiffness as they walked up the aisle together. She never once looked down at him.

Their litter had been sitting in the sun, and it was very warm inside the curtains. As they lurched into motion, Tyrion reclined on an elbow while Sansa sat staring at her hands. She is just as comely as the Tyrell girl. Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful. He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy. Was that what made him speak? Or just the need to distract himself from the fullness in his bladder?

"I had been thinking that when the roads are safe again, we might journey to Casterly Rock." Far from Joffrey and my sister. The more he thought about what Joff had done to Lives of Four Kings, the more it troubled him. There was a message there, oh yes. "It would please me to show you the Golden Gallery and the Lion's Mouth, and the Hall of Heroes where Jaime and I played as boys. You can hear thunder from below where the sea comes in . . ."

She raised her head slowly. He knew what she was seeing; the swollen brutish brow, the raw stump of his nose, his crooked pink scar and mismatched eyes. Her own eyes were big and blue and empty. "I shall go wherever my lord husband wishes."

"I had hoped it might please you, my lady."

"It will please me to please my lord."

His mouth tightened. What a pathetic little man you are. Did you think babbling about the Lion's Mouth would make her smile? When have you ever made a woman smile but with gold? "No, it was a foolish notion. Only a Lannister can love the Rock."

"Yes, my lord. As you wish."

Tyrion could hear the commons shouting out King Joffrey's name. In three years that cruel boy will be a man, ruling in his own right . . . and every dwarf with half his wits will be a long way from King's Landing. Oldtown, perhaps. Or even the Free Cities. He had always had a yen to see the Titan of Braavos. Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears. Sansa wore a gown of silvery satin trimmed in vair, with dagged sleeves that almost touched the floor, lined in soft purple felt. Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones. Tyrion had never seen her look more lovely, yet she wore sorrow on those long satin sleeves. "Lady Sansa," he told her, "you shall be the most beautiful woman in the hall tonight."

"My lord is too kind."

"My lady," said Shae wistfully. "Couldn't I come serve at table? I so want to see the pigeons fly out of the pie."

Sansa looked at her uncertainly. "The queen has chosen all the servers."

"And the hall will be too crowded." Tyrion had to bite back his annoyance. "There will be musicians strolling all through the castle, though, and tables in the outer ward with food and drink for all." He inspected his new doublet, crimson velvet with padded shoulders and puffed sleeves slashed to show the black satin underlining. A handsome garment. All it wants is a handsome man to wear it. "Come, Pod, help me into this."

Joffrey and Margaery rode into the throne room on matched white chargers. Pages ran before them, scattering rose petals under their hooves. The king and queen had changed for the feast as well. Joffrey wore striped black-and-crimson breeches and a cloth-of-gold doublet with black satin sleeves and onyx studs. Margaery had exchanged the demure gown that she had worn in the sept for one much more revealing, a confection in pale green samite with a tight-laced bodice that bared her shoulders and the tops of her small breasts. Unbound, her soft brown hair tumbled over her white shoulders and down her back almost to her waist. Around her brows was a slim golden crown. Her smile was shy and sweet. A lovely girl, thought Tyrion, and a kinder fate than my nephew deserves.

...

Does she wish it were her in Margaery's place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense. He turned away, wanting distraction, but everywhere he looked were women, fair fine beautiful happy women who belonged to other men. Margaery, of course, smiling sweetly as she and Joffrey shared a drink from the great seven-sided wedding chalice. Her mother Lady Alerie, silver-haired and handsome, still proud beside Mace Tyrell. The queen's three young cousins, bright as birds. Lord Merryweather's dark-haired Myrish wife with her big black sultry eyes. Ellaria Sand among the Dornishmen (Cersei had placed them at their own table, just below the dais in a place of high honor but as far from the Tyrells as the width of the hall would allow), laughing at something the Red Viper had told her.

And there was one woman, sitting almost at the foot of the third table on the left . . . the wife of one of the Fossoways, he thought, and heavy with his child. Her delicate beauty was in no way diminished by her belly, nor was her pleasure in the food and frolics. Tyrion watched as her husband fed her morsels off his plate. They drank from the same cup, and would kiss often and unpredictably. Whenever they did, his hand would gently rest upon her stomach, a tender and protective gesture.

He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now. Flinch away, most likely. Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine. If he told her that he wished to have her maidenhead tonight, she would suffer that dutifully as well, and weep no more than she had to.

He called for more wine.

She was not eating, either. "Sansa, is aught amiss?" He spoke without thinking, and instantly felt the fool. All her kin are slaughtered and she's wed to me, and I wonder what's amiss.

"No, my lord." She looked away from him, and feigned an unconvincing interest in Moon Boy pelting Ser Dontos with dates.

Four master pyromancers conjured up beasts of living flame to tear at each other with fiery claws whilst the serving men ladeled out bowls of blandissory, a mixture of beef broth and boiled wine sweetened with honey and dotted with blanched almonds and chunks of capon. Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. ("Not swan again," Tyrion muttered, remembering his supper with his sister on the eve of battle.) A juggler kept a half-dozen swords and axes whirling through the air as skewers of blood sausage were brought sizzling to the tables, a juxtaposition that Tyrion thought passing clever, though not perhaps in the best of taste.

 

 

3. Illyrio serves Tyrion swan the third time, but he refuses. We get a nice description of Illyrio’s breasts. Illyrio tries to seduce Tyrion with a whore, but Tyrion’s done being manipulated by whores. He wants his wife(s). He rejects the whore, but gets fear from her instead which pleases him. Perhaps Tyrion rejecting the swan is a parallel to Hukko maybe Hugor sacrificing the swan "maidens" (I suspect they were whores)? Perhaps like Tyrion, something changed his mind and he now preferred their fear? 

 

Spoiler

ADWD Tyrion I

He found a fresh skin of wine instead and sucked at it as if it were a woman's breast.

...

Above him loomed a grotesque fat man with a forked yellow beard, holding a wooden mallet and an iron chisel. His bedrobe was large enough to serve as a tourney pavilion, but its loosely knotted belt had come undone, exposing a huge white belly and a pair of heavy breasts that sagged like sacks of suet covered with coarse yellow hair. He reminded Tyrion of a dead sea cow that had once washed up in the caverns under Casterly Rock.

As he bathed, the girl washed his feet, scrubbed his back, and brushed his hair. Afterward she rubbed sweet-smelling ointment into his calves to ease the aches, and dressed him once again in boy's clothing, a musty pair of burgundy breeches and a blue velvet doublet lined with cloth-of-gold. "Will my lord want me after he has eaten?" she asked as she was lacing up his boots.

"No. I am done with women." Whores.

The girl took that disappointment too well for his liking. "If m'lord would prefer a boy, I can have one waiting in his bed."

M'lord would prefer his wife. M'lord would prefer a girl named Tysha. "Only if he knows where whores go."

The girl's mouth tightened. She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. A little honest loathing might be refreshing, like a tart wine after too much sweet.

"I believe I have changed my mind," he told her. "Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I'll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly." He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. "Do you moan when you are being fucked?" he asked the bedwarmer.

"If it please m'lord."

"It might please m'lord to strangle you. That's how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me." This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

 

I think it’s interesting that the High Sparrow is prosecuting Cersei and Marg who are notorious for manipulating men. This is perhaps how they recruited Lancel: they convinced him how he was manipulated by Cersei. Was Hukko maybe Hugor sacrificing the swan maidens really about inciting radicalism and anger among the men to some specific purpose? If so, what was that purpose then and what might it be now? If Tyrion is a modern parallel to Hukko maybe Hugor, was Hugor motivated by rejection and came to enjoy their fear like Tyrion? Was Hukkor maybe Hugor killing the swan maidens somehow also about kinslaying and usurping power as these themes come up when Tyrion is served swan or maybe that’s a different thing? And all of this juxtaposed with Where do whores go?

 

AFFC Cersei VIII

"Our bodies were shaped by our Father and Mother so we might join male to female and beget trueborn children," Raynard replied. "It is base and sinful for women to sell their holy parts for coin."

The pious sentiment would have been more convincing if the queen had not known that Septon Raynard had special friends in every brothel on the Street of Silk. No doubt he had decided that echoing the High Sparrow's twitterings was preferable to scrubbing floors. "Do not presume to preach at me," she told him. "The brothel keepers have been complaining, and rightly so."

"If sinners speak, why should the righteous listen?"

"These sinners feed the royal coffers," the queen said bluntly, "and their pennies help pay the wages of my gold cloaks and build galleys to defend our shores. There is trade to be considered as well. If King's Landing had no brothels, the ships would go to Duskendale or Gulltown. His High Holiness promised me peace in my streets. Whoring helps to keep that peace. Common men deprived of whores are apt to turn to rape. Henceforth let His High Holiness do his praying in the sept where it belongs."

 

As such, I do wonder if instead of swan maidens luring men to their death, instead they were swan whores leading men to the less literal death of sin or just losing themselves/being distracted or lost. 

Also, it's been a while since I've seen this, but I believe Swan Lake involved a juxtaposition of wife and an ambitious and manipulative woman who uses love and/or sexuality which Tyrion seems to struggle with in the text above. 

 

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11 hours ago, Seams said:

Interesting point. I believe this is the way the author describes them:

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward.

In the dream, Dany is trying to reach the red door but she instead "wakes the dragon" and flies.

Are you sure they are not Targaryen kings of Westeros?

My own interpretation is that the ghosts are dragons or symbolic dragons, so there does seem to be a close fit with Targ kings. (Leo of House Cartel makes this same dragon / king comparison, above.) The Targaryen throne room was filled with dragon skulls, which are like ghosts. I have always assumed that the author wants us to think of the Winterfell crypt - with iron swords and stone direwolves - as similar to the Targ throne room. (Or the lower level of the Red Keep after Robert Baratheon takes the throne.)

It's interesting that the ghosts with swords of pale fire serve the same function for Dany that is served by the three-eyed crow in Bran's falling dream when he is in a coma at Winterfell. I wonder whether Bran's three-eyed crow is also a ghost king of sorts?

They are the emperors of the dawn empire. 

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15 hours ago, Seams said:

I wonder what it means that Tristifer used a warhammer, like Robert Baratheon? And that the hammer was associated with justice. The justice theme is an early message in the books, with Ned administering the King's justice to the deserter Gared.

Robb used a sword, not a warhammer, and he never got his hands on Ice. But maybe that's not connected to the Robb / Tristifer parallels.

I guess Robert Baratheon and Tristifer Mudd could be looked at as the each being the "last of a dying breed"

Tris is often counted as the last of the First Men Kings to really hold significance, while Robert could be looked at as the last "real" Baratheon, if we think of the charismatic, boorish powerhouses like the Laughing Storm, Orys and Borros - as opposed to the brooding, unpopular Stannis, the illegitimate children of Cersei, or even the "more traditional" stag children Gendry and Edric who are still bastards.

Both were also vanquished by Andal related forces - Seven Kings for Tris and Lannisters for Bob; followed by leaving heirs of diminishing skill like Tommen and Tristifer V mudd.

The idea of justice being associated with war hammers is a good one!

Think of the sad tale of Baelor Breakspear, who was "The Hammer" of the famous "hammer and anvil" strategy used during the Redgrass Field. The Prince of Dragonstone's biggest scene in the books is where he comes to the aid of Duncan The Tall, all in the name of justice! 

Like Robert and Tris, Baelor was a popular, inspirational warrior. His heirs Valaar and Matarys could be looked at as similar to the heirs of the other two kings - in that they didn't live up to the reputation of their famous fathers (though Baelor's kids didn't really get the chance)

I suppose the deaths of Robert and Baelor could also be looked at as the beginning of the end of justice in their regions - fairness being "hammered into the ground, if you will - the Lannister rule caused much undue suffering while the post-Breakspear IT regime sounded less than popular with the small folk, considering all the talks of Bloodraven's schemes and the people who voiced their displeasure being carted away.

Tristifer Mudd and Robert both come from castles once hailed "strongest in the land" - Oldstones and Storm's End. Both castles obviously have their links to magic and the COTF too.

15 hours ago, Seams said:

Asha has an old friend named Tristifer Botley. I wonder whether or how he will be tied in with the same ancient king?

I got nothing relating Botley to Mudd, I'm afraid. There are a few Andal blooded characters amongst both Stannis' King's Men and Selyse's Queen's men, perhaps Tris will come to blows with one. 

His love for Asha does somewhat remind me of Robert and Lyanna. 

15 hours ago, Seams said:

Lions also have claws!

This is a little off the ancient king point, but I was interested to note a strong similarity between House Brune (Bruin?), passed by Brienne and Nimble Dick and Pod as they near Crackclaw Point, and Bear Isle of the Mormonts. Recall that Mormont crushed a crab claw with his bare (bear?) fist when Tyrion was sharing the crab feast with the officers of the Night's Watch. I wonder whether Mormonts have played a role in cracking all of the "claw" houses?

Although I guess bears have claws, too. Hence the sword, Longclaw . . .

I often forget that the Brunes are another bear-house. I find it interesting that the main branch reside at the "Dyre Den" while the Mormont Sword Long had it's pommel replaced by a Direwolf.

We also have Lothor Brune, while Jeor was attacked by a wight named Othor.

I'll need to do a bit of snooping about to see what I can find on the Mormonts "cracking the clawed houses" - very intriguing!.

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16 hours ago, Seams said:

It's interesting that the ghosts with swords of pale fire serve the same function for Dany that is served by the three-eyed crow in Bran's falling dream when he is in a coma at Winterfell. I wonder whether Bran's three-eyed crow is also a ghost king of sorts?

Perhaps he's the Night's King?!

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19 hours ago, Seams said:

Interesting point. I believe this is the way the author describes them:

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward.

In the dream, Dany is trying to reach the red door but she instead "wakes the dragon" and flies.

Are you sure they are not Targaryen kings of Westeros?

My own interpretation is that the ghosts are dragons or symbolic dragons, so there does seem to be a close fit with Targ kings. (Leo of House Cartel makes this same dragon / king comparison, above.) The Targaryen throne room was filled with dragon skulls, which are like ghosts. I have always assumed that the author wants us to think of the Winterfell crypt - with iron swords and stone direwolves - as similar to the Targ throne room. (Or the lower level of the Red Keep after Robert Baratheon takes the throne.)

It's interesting that the ghosts with swords of pale fire serve the same function for Dany that is served by the three-eyed crow in Bran's falling dream when he is in a coma at Winterfell. I wonder whether Bran's three-eyed crow is also a ghost king of sorts?

Dany and Bran are the parallel characters in the story.  The story in the books is what I meant, not the show.  They go through a similar experience and both had to make an important choice that will affect them the rest of their lives. 

  • The choices they made are complex but if we break it down to the essence, it is about choosing to "die" or to live. 
  • To Bran, it meant leaving behind Winterfell and his family.   Bloodraven's cave is a place of safety where he can live but it also meant embracing his role as the Greenseer.
  • To Daenerys, it meant avoiding Vaes Dothrak and finding safety behind the red door.  Somehow she figured out that the only door to safety is to embrace the dragons and become powerful.  Safety is not found behind a red door but by having great power. 
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20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

:stunned: Yikes. I’ve always wondered at Arya’s lack of relationship with Tyrion as Jon, Bran and Sansa all have a mostly favorable relationship with him which seems like it will important later in the story.

Because of the passages below, I’ve always associated swan more with Cersei than Arya. Comparing/contrasting their swan association would be an interesting path to explore. The battling swans/ black and white swans might be important.

Tyrion can't see swan without thinking of Cersei. Cersei serves him swan before the Battle of the Blackwater. During the battle, Tyrion sees Balon Swans of the battling swans but initially thinks it's Mandon Moore who will later try to kill him. Tyrion gets served swan at the Purple Wedding which he associates with Cersei and we know what was in the works there for Tyrion. While eating with Illyrio, Tyrion is served swan again which he again links to Cersei. For all three of these instances, we also have mushrooms. Cersei's swan is stuffed with mushrooms, the first meal at the Purple Wedding is mushroom soup and Tyrion is famished so he eats it all. There's an extensive back and forth between Illyrio and Tyrion about poisoned mushrooms. All three also involve uncles usurping nephews and nieces. Before Blackwater, Tyrion notes that Cersei thinks Tyrion means to kill Joff. At the Purple Wedding, Tyrion is framed for killing Joff. Just previous in ASOS Sansa IV, Oberyn brings up Viserys poisoning nephew Baelor. Illyrio brings up "to crown her is to kill her" in regards to Myrcella. 

...

ASOS Sansa IV (right before the Purple Wedding)

Oberyn gave a shrug. "A year or a fortnight, what does it matter? He poisoned his own nephew to gain the throne and then did nothing once he had it."

"Baelor starved himself to death, fasting," said Tyrion. "His uncle served him loyally as Hand, as he had served the Young Dragon before him. Viserys might only have reigned a year, but he ruled for fifteen, while Daeron warred and Baelor prayed." He made a sour face. "And if he did remove his nephew, can you blame him? Someone had to save the realm from Baelor's follies."

Wow. Thank you for the excellent documentation of Tyrion's swan encounters. There does seem to be a strong connection with Cersei, and that makes me feel better about the meaning of the Hugor of the Hill / Hukko allusion and a potential conflict with Arya.

I'm remembering that Tyrion's big scene with the Iron Throne occurs after he has poisoned Cersei to get her out of the way temporarily. As Hand of the King, he is allowed to sit on the throne while he conducts business, and he rather enjoys it. He receives Aliser Thorne there, and offers to provide shovels for proper burials when Thorne tells him that the dead are rising as wights.

But Hukko's sacrifice of the swan maidens also reminds me of Victarion choosing the most beautiful slave women to put adrift on a burning ship as sacrifices to the Drowned God. The Baelor connection leads me to wonder whether the Maidenvault story is also related.

The association of the swan symbolism with the velvet hills / breasts is fascinating. Miranda Royce sets up herself and Sansa in the Blackwood / Bracken roles during a conversation on the path from the Eyrie. Miranda's husband died while having sex with her, so the association with sexual desire and death is part of her story as well. I don't recall religiosity and guilt being part of the Miranda Royce patter, but maybe I should go back and re-read that. There was also a big thread about fowls as symbols last year, I think. I should probably review that to see if the swan maidens came up.

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’ve noticed reading some of the other’s posts that I might be in a minority in seeing the books proper as elaborating (or correcting) the histories through parallels and symbols rather than the other way around.

...

The histories aren’t accurate, or not completely anyhow because of bias, oral histories, whatnot. Hence why the books proper should be relied on more. ...

I see the parallels in the story proper as a way to maybe tell the true telling of the story which may not be coming down to us correctly. As such, I think these three passages may be hinting at what really happened with Hukko maybe Hugor and the swan maidens and it seems to hint that the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant is now operating in this vein meaning instead of evolving into something new, they may be regressing.

I agree. GRRM seems to give us several versions of each set of symbols with the intention of testing to see whether we can sort out the foreshadowing for current and future events. I've learned to pay close attention to song lyrics and to the historian called Mushroom, but everything else is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I like the idea that the Faith Militant is taking on the seductive swans Cersei and Margaery, fitting into the traditional role of Hugor / Hukko. The Hand's tourney led me to surmise that there might be a religious reversal in the plot because an Andal was beaten (Ser Hugh of the Vale) and a first man (Royce) and a green man (Ser Loras Tyrell). The last man standing was The Hound, who represents something older than the CotF, I think: the night.

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20 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

...Where it runs into Hugor of the Hill is first with the wife, Alysanne being the only Targ queen with blue eyes, and I think only Targ noted to have two blue eyes. Hugor's wife's eyes are particularly noted blue. Alysanne also runs into Sansa in obvious ways. And Jaehaerys and Hugor both have an affinity with the faith.

Nice catch on the blue eye detail. I love stuff like that.

It will definitely be interesting to see how Tyrion's arc plays out. If the odds-makers were taking bets, the scenario you laid out sounds like a safe bet!

12 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

They are the emperors of the dawn empire. 

That list of jewels is common to both groups, for sure. To me, it's not about where the jewels appear first in the history or the novels, but why GRRM wants us to make a connection between or among groups featuring those jewels. Illyrio's rings feature similar jewels and Tyrion imagines cutting off the man's fingers to take the jeweled rings. Dany contemplates the small army figures - each the size of her little finger - made of the same jewels, and says that her enemies wouldn't fear such an army. What do all of these linked references add up to? That's the kind of puzzle I savor.

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8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The idea of justice being associated with war hammers is a good one!

Think of the sad tale of Baelor Breakspear, who was "The Hammer" of the famous "hammer and anvil" strategy used during the Redgrass Field. The Prince of Dragonstone's biggest scene in the books is where he comes to the aid of Duncan The Tall, all in the name of justice! 

Like Robert and Tris, Baelor was a popular, inspirational warrior. His heirs Valaar and Matarys could be looked at as similar to the heirs of the other two kings - in that they didn't live up to the reputation of their famous fathers (though Baelor's kids didn't really get the chance)

I suppose the deaths of Robert and Baelor could also be looked at as the beginning of the end of justice in their regions - fairness being "hammered into the ground, if you will - the Lannister rule caused much undue suffering while the post-Breakspear IT regime sounded less than popular with the small folk, considering all the talks of Bloodraven's schemes and the people who voiced their displeasure being carted away.

I think the hammers are going to end up being a pivotal symbol. I like the suggestion that maybe the end of hammers is associated with the end of justice. Of course, the "Hammer of Waters" could also fit that notion.

I wonder whether there is also wordplay around hammers and ham? Robert was killed by a boar, and he killed the boar and wanted it served at this funeral feast . . .

But the good news, I suspect, is that smiths use hammers. My guess is that the author wants us to think of people who make things (including people who write books, women who sew, builders, etc.) as holding the key to restoration of the social order, the food supply, the burned castles and villages. If you go to the Search of Ice and Fire site and just type in the word "nail" and read them all in order, there is an interesting evolution of nails in the books, from something on human fingers used to enhance sexual pleasure, progressing to nails used for making things to antlers nailed to people's heads and tongues nailed to walls and slave children nailed to posts. If hammers devolve from justice to nothingness or even to suffering and chaos, the nail references might be good clues to that decline of the "hammer of justice."

In ADwD, two of the Second Sons are called Hammer and Nail. Hammer is a smith and Nail is his apprentice. Maybe GRRM will use them to launch a redemption arc for hammers and nails as symbols.

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18 hours ago, Seams said:

But Hukko's sacrifice of the swan maidens also reminds me of Victarion choosing the most beautiful slave women to put adrift on a burning ship as sacrifices to the Drowned God. The Baelor connection leads me to wonder whether the Maidenvault story is also related.

Now that I think on it, Baelor and the Maidenvault sounds very relevant given Baelor was religious. In a way, Sansa herself is in a maidenvault of sorts as Tyrion wants her badly but simultaneously recognizes that she’s very young and that she doesn't want him so he just resists. The idea of the maidenvault also sounds in line with Tyrion’s feelings as noted around the times he’s served swan in that he’s open to being manipulated  by women because of his feelings. I now suspect Hukko maybe Hugor's decision to sacrifice the swan maidens was also in this vein. 

 

18 hours ago, Seams said:

The association of the swan symbolism with the velvet hills / breasts is fascinating. Miranda Royce sets up herself and Sansa in the Blackwood / Bracken roles during a conversation on the path from the Eyrie. Miranda's husband died while having sex with her, so the association with sexual desire and death is part of her story as well. I don't recall religiosity and guilt being part of the Miranda Royce patter, but maybe I should go back and re-read that. There was also a big thread about fowls as symbols last year, I think. I should probably review that to see if the swan maidens came up.

I don't recall anything religious in that passage either, but when broadening the view, there's Alayne's backstory of wanting to be a Septa and then changing her mind. LF told her to memorize passages as pious bleating as I think he put it discourages questions. Sansa's role in the series has been increasingly adversarial to the Faith especially as they've become radicalized. Given that the older version of the Faith used human sacrifice, I'm now wondering if Ned being sacrificed at the Great Sept may be more significant than I thought before. 

ACOK Sansa IV

"Let him." When Sansa had first beheld the Great Sept with its marble walls and seven crystal towers, she'd thought it was the most beautiful building in the world, but that had been before Joffrey beheaded her father on its steps. "I want it burned."

 Alayne TWOW spoilers.

Spoiler

Sansa is now tempting Harry the Heir in order to manipulate him. She is also unintentionally tempting Robert and LF (Giant's Lance lemon cake and that conversation in the crypts where LF assures her that she does know how to flirt) and tied into this is that Sansa is described as having a large chest. Maybe it's significant that she's learned a great deal of this by spending time with Miranda. She is still in a maidenvault of sorts in that her marriage can't be annulled if she sleeps with someone. 

LF's plans for Sansa are now hinging on the High Septon as he needs her to have an annulment. One possibility for having her marriage tossed out is Sansa disavowing the new gods thus declaring her marriage invalid as she wasn't also married by the old gods. I wonder if Lemore might not be connected here as she seems to be a Septa gone bad. 

And we have swan on the menu. No mushrooms though. And suckling pig with crackling. Poor Robert. 

18 hours ago, Seams said:

I like the idea that the Faith Militant is taking on the seductive swans Cersei and Margaery, fitting into the traditional role of Hugor / Hukko. The Hand's tourney led me to surmise that there might be a religious reversal in the plot because an Andal was beaten (Ser Hugh of the Vale) and a first man (Royce) and a green man (Ser Loras Tyrell). The last man standing was The Hound, who represents something older than the CotF, I think: the night

This gave me a fun idea. I now wonder if TWOIAF is the forward telling of the story and ASOIAF is the backward telling of the story and the backward part of the story.

I’ve always linked the KG and the NW with the Hound being the strongest link s he's always coming out of shadows, blending with the night and such. I do wonder if he represents the oldest part of the NW oath. Mormont said that Craster worships older gods than the old gods (Others?).

There certainly seems to be regression of the story. Aegon conquered but now they are gone and the kingdoms are splitting again. Dany is Old Valyria conquering but fortunately a little different this time. There’s a King in the North and it seems a King of Winter is not long behind. The Faith is regressing if I’m correct and it seems like the old gods are beginning to follow this same path if the hints pan out. As we move along in the story, more fantastical elements are popping up which would better align with the more fantastical earlier history. It would be fun to see if a timeline of TWOIAF could be mapped out and a corresponding one from ASOIAF could be matched to it, only going in reverse. 

 

 

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