Black Panther Spoiler Topic -- because someone had to do it

[red snow]

19 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Killmonger did have the same herb once he became king and before he burned the rest of the flowers. That's how he got to the ancestral plane, remember. He and T'Challa were exactly matched in terms of strength and equipment, in both their fights. The first time, he wanted it more, and T'Challa very likely underestimated him (Shuri certainly did, when she tells her mom Killmonger would never win). 

The second times, the stakes were much clearer to T'Challa, and he was also fresh from having seen Killmonger nearly kill his girlfriend as well as his sister. He just had greater motivation to win, so he did.

You can also make the argument that in the first fight, T'Challa had mixed feelings. He wanted to keep the throne and stop Killmonger, but he was also confused by revelations about his dad, and unsure what Wakanda needed to do.

The second time around, he had charted a course for himself and his country, and while he still pitied Killmonger, he was very clear his path would be awful for everyone in the world.

Those are all valid points but it's still the case that T'Challa is at his best when taking a drug and using tech. Iron Man 3 was essentially about proving that Tony Stark was up to scratch without the armour. Thor spent most of a film without Mjolnir just to highlight he's not just his hammer (although he's still super strong so less of a challenge). The fact Killmonger also has the herb and tech in the final showdown doesn't alter things that much for me.

So while it actually made for strong characterisation (of T'Challa and Killmonger) the way they did it I just thought it was an odd note for a superhero.

It might just be because I'm watching the winter olympics that I'm unusually sensitive about performance enhancing drugs . And it wasn't even a "bad" aspect - just something I found odd from a Disney storytelling point.

 

 

[polishgenius]

29 minutes ago, red snow said:

Iron Man 3 was essentially about proving that Tony Stark was up to scratch without the armour. Thor spent most of a film without Mjolnir just to highlight he's not just his hammer (although he's still super strong so less of a challenge).

 

Yeah, but in both cases that was the third installment. So plenty of time for T'Challa to go that route potentially.

[red snow]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

Yeah, but in both cases that was the third installment. So plenty of time for T'Challa to go that route potentially.

I think we're easily going to see three films after this weekend's box office. And it wouldn't feel forced with the characters and world they've set up. Hopefully they don't mess wakanda up too much in Avengers.

With T'challa and Peter Parker I think the MCU can consider/absorb any of the phse one actors/heroes disappearing after Avengers. Hopefully they do as well with Carol Danvers.

[Fiddler]

Just came back from finally seeing this and wanted to throw my thoughts out before reading the rest of the thread.

First and foremost this was a beautiful movie.  All of the scenery, costumes, art direction, everything was gorgeous.  I was watching in awe at the sheer beauty of the film.

Second.  The acting.  Everyone was great.  I am not sure of the names without looking them up, but the little sister tech genius was fantastic.  I want her in more Marvel movies.  I want her to interact with Tony Stark very badly.  As for Jordan, he was great.  Going in I had heard how great of a villain he was, which I sort of agree with.  I don't think the character was all that great, his back story stuff was to quick and his motivation didn't seem to ring true to me, but Jordan was so great that he carried that character.

Thirdly.  The story itself.  There was some good things going on, it all felt a bit disjointed.  I thought it was a nice introduction to Wakanda, but it just felt like the thematic points were just there to get Jordan's character there and have a big fight scene.  I think it could have worked better to have Wakanda introduced to the audience through the eyes of Jordan's character as he was welcomed back to then have him turn on them.

Overall I would put this in the middle of the marvel movies.  I think it stands with the other origin movies, slightly ahead of antman and Dr Strange, but not as good as Civil War, Winter Soldier or Avengers.  Definately a good movie to see in theaters and by no means a bad movie.

[Ran]

9 hours ago, Fiddler said:

troduction to Wakanda, but it just felt like the thematic points were just there to get Jordan's character there and have a big fight scene.  I think it could have worked better to have Wakanda introduced to the audience through the eyes of Jordan's character as he was welcomed back to then have him turn on them.

Nice. Yeah, I think this would mesh well with my idea of how to reconfigure the story to be tighter and more interesting. Can practically start with Seoul  and down the road Shuri could figure out that Killmonger was helping Klaue before he turned around and killed him as his way to get himself into Wakanda. Have to fit in M'Baku's initial challenge somewhere -- maybe Killmonger witnesses it on the sidelines, and draws some conclusions about his chances against T'Challa later...

9 hours ago, Fiddler said:

Overall I would put this in the middle of the marvel movies.  I think it stands with the other origin movies, slightly ahead of antman and Dr Strange, but not as good as Civil War, Winter Soldier or Avengers.  Definately a good movie to see in theaters and by no means a bad movie.

Dr. Strange was so forgettable that every time I try to remember the Marvel movies, I forget that it existed. I've seen the new Avengers movie trailer a couple of times and it's always, "Oh, right, Dr. Strange." Weird.

My Captain America fanboy is always happy with how well the Cap movies have come out.

[mormont]

Just now, Ran said:

Nice. Yeah, I think this would mesh well with my idea of how to reconfigure the story to be tighter and more interesting. Can practically start with Seoul  and down the road Shuri could figure out that Killmonger was helping Klaue before he turned around and killed him as his way to get himself into Wakanda. Have to fit in M'Baku's initial challenge somewhere -- maybe Killmonger witnesses it on the sidelines, and draws some conclusions about his chances against T'Challa later...

I would be loath to lose the museum scene, though. It's a great scene that I think works well. It's one of those scenes that gains in retrospect: the first time you watch it, you know nothing about Killmonger's personality and history. But once you know him more, the scene works better. Klaue is there for greed, but for Killmonger the museum mission is symbolically important.

[Corvinus85]

A pretty good movie, and for sure in the top half of the MCU. I'm not sure where to place it yet, as with all other movies, I need to see it again, to decide. I still have mixed feeling about Thor 3, having it seen it only once.

The strongest parts of the movie were:

• the performances of the actors
• excellent secondary characters
• solid story and world development

The weakest parts

• fight scenes were a mixed bag for me - I enjoyed the car chase and the two ritual fights; the end battle was good mainly because of the secondary characters, but there was too much CGI in some of the scenes, especially the train fight between T'Challa and Killmonger; also, that first fight in the jungle was too dark and chaotic
• Killmonger's transition to king happened a bit too fast, and there was some elements of plot convenience there; he was aware of Wakanda's culture and rituals thanks to his father's book. But how much was he aware of the current situation, other than the king dying? Klaue probably informed him on his raid in Wakanda all those years ago, but I found it a bit convenient that the first guy he meets is the one guy who would appreciate seeing Klaue's body the most, and thus earn himself a supporter early on. Other stuff - in the prologue the old king wants his brother to go face the judgement of the council, so he wasn't going to make that judgement on his own (until the brother takes out the gun, at least), but Killmonger rapidly moves to fundamentally change Wakandan policy, and really there is no real opposition from the council, they all feel like figureheads. So I don't really know what their role is. I also wish they would have had a scene with Killmonger putting on the golden necklace and pondering what it means to be the Black Panther. I guess he didn't care much about that.

[mormont]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Other stuff - in the prologue the old king wants his brother to go face the judgement of the council, so he wasn't going to make that judgement on his own (until the brother takes out the gun, at least), but Killmonger rapidly moves to fundamentally change Wakandan policy, and really there is no real opposition from the council, they all feel like figureheads. So I don't really know what their role is.

The forms must be observed, I suppose. Particularly when the king's own judgement might be seen as suspect, because the issue involves a member of his family. 

10 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I also wish they would have had a scene with Killmonger putting on the golden necklace and pondering what it means to be the Black Panther. I guess he didn't care much about that.

I'd be willing to bet this, or something like it, will be a deleted scene.

[Fiddler]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

Nice. Yeah, I think this would mesh well with my idea of how to reconfigure the story to be tighter and more interesting. Can practically start with Seoul  and down the road Shuri could figure out that Killmonger was helping Klaue before he turned around and killed him as his way to get himself into Wakanda. Have to fit in M'Baku's initial challenge somewhere -- maybe Killmonger witnesses it on the sidelines, and draws some conclusions about his chances against T'Challa later...

Dr. Strange was so forgettable that every time I try to remember the Marvel movies, I forget that it existed. I've seen the new Avengers movie trailer a couple of times and it's always, "Oh, right, Dr. Strange." Weird.

My Captain America fanboy is always happy with how well the Cap movies have come out.

I will admit, I probably rate the captain america movies higher because that was my main comic as a kid, but I honestly love Winter Soldier and Civil War.  The banter between Cap and the other people in the movie is perfect.

That is another great aspect of Black Panther.  The interaction between all of the characters is great.

[Ran]

9 hours ago, mormont said:

I would be loath to lose the museum scene, though. It's a great scene that I think works well. It's one of those scenes that gains in retrospect: the first time you watch it, you know nothing about Killmonger's personality and history. But once you know him more, the scene works better. Klaue is there for greed, but for Killmonger the museum mission is symbolically important.

True. I'm trying to work it over in my head, and maybe if it's the prologue, and maybe if Erik's involvement in the killings seems more like something that was forced on him by Klaue rather than just an example of ruthlessness, you could sell the idea that whoever this guy is, he's not really on board with Klaue. Then of course later it turns out he was manipulating Klaue, and he really didn't care about the people, etc. as a way to maintain the initial impression that he's potentially a "good guy" to then fit with the rest of the idea.

Don't know. I just keep circling back that they oversold Killmonger as utterly amoral and ruthless, which really undercut his intentions (for me, at least). Had they rolled it out more slowly, I would have found him more compelling, but maybe that's just me.

[Darth Richard II]

Heh, I absolutely adore the first Cap America film. To me it's the closest we'll ever get to a Rocketeer sequel.

[Ran]

14 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Heh, I absolutely adore the first Cap America film. To me it's the closest we'll ever get to a Rocketeer sequel.

I'm really fond of it as well, actually, although the second half is not as good as the first half.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 1:14 AM, Fall Bass said:

It . . . could have? It feels like the movie only stretched across a few days, although that would make the scene kind of weird - did they try out some type of therapy with Bucky, only to freeze him later? Otherwise that would mean they only froze him for a couple of weeks or months before waking him up again (or Shuri has unfrozen him without authorization). 

Maybe it's just one of those "Where was Iron Man during Winter Soldier?" moments. 

When Shuri is healing the CIA agent she mentions that he is the second white guy she has had to put back together. I assume this was an opening for the introduction of Bucky in the second movie.

 

eta:  I loved this movie. Might end up being my favorite

[polishgenius]

20 minutes ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

I assume this was an opening for the introduction of Bucky in the second movie.

Or even in this one, so he can be in Infinity War.

[kuenjato]

Really liked this, and it flows in a general trend of marvel movies increasing in risk and variety and thus quality. I'd probably put it in the top five or so, with the only real issue is that the movie felt rushed in places, particularly the 2nd half, all the more obvious for the fact that it takes the appropriate amount of time and energy for narrative set-up early on. I blame the usual keep-the-run-time-down dictate from the executives. The CGI was a bit wonky with the final fight; the idea was solid but he execution only so-so. But that final scene with Killmonger--wow. 

[RumHam]

One thing that's not clear to me, is the challenge just for the throne or also for the mantle of Black Panther? Cause I got the impression T'Challa was the Black Panther for a while before his father died so I'm assuming the king and panther don't always have to be the same person. Or do they? 

Also if they wanted Klau dead why did the brand him "theif" and let him go? But I can chalk that up to continuity issues between Avengers 2 and this. 

[Leofric]

30 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Also if they wanted Klau dead why did the brand him "theif" and let him go? But I can chalk that up to continuity issues between Avengers 2 and this. 

I can't remember the exact story that is given about his brand in Avengers 2, but could be that he spent time in Wakanda prior to his big score with the vibranium and was branded for an earlier crime. 

[kuenjato]

I didn't really dig that to "prove" one is a king, you have to fight in hand to hand combat. Seems pretty archaic considering their level of technology, and could allow for a total psychopath to take control (as what happened).

It was mentioned on twitter that the climactic fight of the film takes place on a literal underground railroad. Hadn't considered that, and it does sort of make an interesting context that, on a future re-watch, will probably help me ignore the shoddy CGI or repetitiousness of the fight.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

Not reading any posts here because I haven't seen the movie yet (tomorrow is the day), but posting this because I think it has spoilers in the post-script which I didn't watch. But I did enjoy the main part of the video, which he made before seeing the movie, so it's spoiler free.

 

 

[Spring Bass]

An interesting bit I didn't pick up on initially was that the kids in the post-credits sequence call Bucky "White Wolf", which apparently was a marvel character with a connection to Wakanda in the comics.