Black Panther Spoiler Topic -- because someone had to do it

[mormont]

9 hours ago, RumHam said:

One thing that's not clear to me, is the challenge just for the throne or also for the mantle of Black Panther? Cause I got the impression T'Challa was the Black Panther for a while before his father died so I'm assuming the king and panther don't always have to be the same person. Or do they? 

Not sure about this. It could be a duty that normally falls on the monarch, but can be delegated if/when they're no longer suited, maybe? 

9 hours ago, RumHam said:

Also if they wanted Klau dead why did the brand him "theif" and let him go? But I can chalk that up to continuity issues between Avengers 2 and this. 

My impression was that they didn't let him go - otherwise why would they be trying to recapture him? 

He was most likely branded before escaping somehow. 

6 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I didn't really dig that to "prove" one is a king, you have to fight in hand to hand combat. Seems pretty archaic considering their level of technology, and could allow for a total psychopath to take control (as what happened).

That's sort of the point, though - technologically, Wakanda is incredibly advanced but veneration of the traditions of the country is leading to political stagnation and paralysis. It's a paradise, but the flip side of that is that it has stalled somewhat.

Although as noted, I think the chances are the challenge has for some time been symbolic, and it's worth noting that only certain people (of royal blood) can challenge, so that minimises the risk. Those who can challenge have been brought up to respect the traditions. Killmonger is a rare exception. 

[Seli]

On 20/02/2018 at 1:15 AM, Fiddler said:

...

Thirdly.  The story itself.  There was some good things going on, it all felt a bit disjointed.  I thought it was a nice introduction to Wakanda, but it just felt like the thematic points were just there to get Jordan's character there and have a big fight scene.  I think it could have worked better to have Wakanda introduced to the audience through the eyes of Jordan's character as he was welcomed back to then have him turn on them.

...

Wouldn't that destroy part of the importance and appeal of the movie? Because that seems to mean looking at Wakanda through an outsider perspective rather than from the inside.

[Ran]

I'd say the introduction being from an outsider doesn't mean that it would stay locked on his perspective. As it is, we _are_ outsiders when we see this fabulous technological marvel, and so is everyone else in the world who sees it, and the film doesn't pretend that we're not supposed to be amazed or awed rather than feeling the love and respect that T'Challa has for returning to his homeland.

So, I don't think the initial intro needs to be from a Wakandan's perspective, because it really isn't from a Wakandan perspective from the audience's point of view. But scenes like T'Challa and Nakia walking along the streets, those are more important, IMO, for establishing it as a real, lived-in place, as are familial scenes such as T'Challa and Shuri. So long as this theoretical rewrite of the film retains those sort of scenes, I don't think the characters depicted in the initial intro matters too much.

[Fiddler]

4 hours ago, Seli said:

Wouldn't that destroy part of the importance and appeal of the movie? Because that seems to mean looking at Wakanda through an outsider perspective rather than from the inside.

I'm not quite sure.  The more I think of it, I think it just bothers me that Jordan and Boseman didn't have more together.  The immediate "lets fight" felt forced, especially because (i think?) T'challa knows that Killmonger is his cousin at that point.

It may also just be selfish of me.  With how great Jordan and Boseman were i wanted to see more scenes with them.  Plus the second fight just wasn't that good, IMO.

[The BlackBear]

Just got back from seeing it. First thoughts. I liked it, but I think my expectations were too high. The dreams and waterfall fights were clearly meant to contrast, but I felt they were a bit too repetitive. And it didn't have a standout sequence that I absolutely loved.

What did work very well was the characters, I felt they were all fully formed. It's a pity Klaue is dead, but it made sense to happen. Also it did really feel like Black Panther. Seeing Chadwick Boseman in Wakanda, really sold me on him as the character.

[red snow]

4 hours ago, The BlackBear said:

Just got back from seeing it. First thoughts. I liked it, but I think my expectations were too high. The dreams and waterfall fights were clearly meant to contrast, but I felt they were a bit too repetitive. And it didn't have a standout sequence that I absolutely loved.

What did work very well was the characters, I felt they were all fully formed. It's a pity Klaue is dead, but it made sense to happen. Also it did really feel like Black Panther. Seeing Chadwick Boseman in Wakanda, really sold me on him as the character.

I agree that the stand-out moments were mainly character based ones eg all of the action scenes were competent and sometimes imaginative (although the online clip comparing spider-man 3 fight with Black Panther vs Killmonger Panther is damning) but never jaw-dropping.  Allthough overall I'd say the visuals were stand-out too.

I liked how for this film at least it was more important to be true to the character than to be true to the MCU franchise. In many ways this approach was similar to what Fox have been doing with Logan and Deadpool - finding what makes those characters tick and making a film around that.

I suspect Michael B Jordan has just made himself very much in demand off the back of this film. I read he was really hesitant about playing a villain in the run up to this.

I think we'll be seeing a lot of these actors appear in higher profile films now - which is a definite plus from a very successful film that mostly features black actors and good female roles. We'll get to see them pop up in more high profile films. Michonne will probably be "it was always planned" killed off next season and Danai Gurira got to show off more skill in 2 hours than several seasons of Walking Dead.

[Fiddler]

16 minutes ago, red snow said:

 

I think we'll be seeing a lot of these actors appear in higher profile films now - which is a definite plus from a very successful film that mostly features black actors and good female roles. We'll get to see them pop up in more high profile films. Michonne will probably be "it was always planned" killed off next season and Danai Gurira got to show off more skill in 2 hours than several seasons of Walking Dead.

That was one thing about the movie that blew me away.  I can't point to one actor in the movie that I didn't like.  Everyone was fantastic.

[dbunting]

Saw this yesterday and thought it was a good movie, better acting and characters than anything else. Been a fan of Micheal B since The Wire, plus my daughter loved him on Friday Night Lights. I had seen the previews a lot and wasn't wowed by them, then starting hearing the rave reviews and thought maybe I missed something. But, kinda like Wonder Woman, it was a good movie, actually better than WW, but not great, IMO. 

Couple things I was not happy about: The second challenge - why? There was a set time for challenges and it passed, why bother with another one? Yeah I get it, you feel bad that his dad was killed by your dad and then left him behind, but this is a total outsider you don't know and you allow him to break tradition and challenge? Unless I missed something where royal blood can challenge at anytime?

The first waterfall scene was just total garbage for me. Did we really need to see dancing people up the walls of a waterfall every ten feet? It just looked silly and childish. It made the armour plated rhino's seem realistic.

All that said, I will looking forward to seeing part 2 when it comes out.

[Corvinus85]

8 hours ago, dbunting said:

Couple things I was not happy about: The second challenge - why? There was a set time for challenges and it passed, why bother with another one? Yeah I get it, you feel bad that his dad was killed by your dad and then left him behind, but this is a total outsider you don't know and you allow him to break tradition and challenge? Unless I missed something where royal blood can challenge at anytime?

When I saw that it made me think of the ironborn kingsmoot and the plot that an absentee could call the thing null. Maybe Wakanda has a similar rule. Maybe they should have explained it, but I was ok with it. Ultimately, T'Challa decided to recognize Killmonger as his cousin and give him his due, as he was very likely feeling guilty because of his father.

[The Anti-Targ]

I liked Black Panther. Did I enjoy it significantly more than most other MCU movies? No. I think at this point MCU movies all kind of mesh. Wakanda looks great, and I look forward to it implementing democratic reforms so that Black Panther becomes a figurehead warrior king who does more warrior than king stuff (kind of like the tradition of the British (male) Royals serving in the military) which will allow T'Challa to stop having to worry so much about Wakanda specifically and take up the Mantle of head of the Avengers, with Shuri as head of R&D for the Avengers. Perhaps Nakia can be its first Prime Minister. And rather than her becoming a BP villain, perhaps as PM she just becomes a political rival and antagonist (and perhaps somewhat of a nationalist foil to T'Challa's increasing internationalist perspective.

Are we looking at perhaps Black Panther heading up the West Coast Avengers? The Wakanda outreach centre is in California after all. 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I liked Black Panther. Did I enjoy it significantly more than most other MCU movies? No. I think at this point MCU movies all kind of mesh. Wakanda looks great, and I look forward to it implementing democratic reforms so that Black Panther becomes a figurehead warrior king who does more warrior than king stuff (kind of like the tradition of the British (male) Royals serving in the military) which will allow T'Challa to stop having to worry so much about Wakanda specifically and take up the Mantle of head of the Avengers, with Shuri as head of R&D for the Avengers. Perhaps Nakia can be its first Prime Minister. And rather than her becoming a BP villain, perhaps as PM she just becomes a political rival and antagonist (and perhaps somewhat of a nationalist foil to T'Challa's increasing internationalist perspective.

Are we looking at perhaps Black Panther heading up the West Coast Avengers? The Wakanda outreach centre is in California after all. 

Ummm... what about Nakia says she'd become a nationalist. She's the one who was pushing T'Challa to accept refugees and share tech!

[The Anti-Targ]

22 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ummm... what about Nakia says she'd become a nationalist. She's the one who was pushing T'Challa to accept refugees and share tech!

Nothing. But that's the point. Becoming more open to the international community changes people. Some people who thought they wanted the change, suddenly realise they don't like the downside of that openness more than they like the upside and so they see their previous, naive, view as a mistake and would rather things went back to the way they were. And some people reticent about openness realise that they like this brave new world after all and decide to embrace the change.

As the newly elected Prime Minister of Wakanda it's very easy to see the scripting of some shit going down that is the fault of this new openness and Nakia has an epiphany that this openness was a mistake.

There was nothing, other than the predictability of movies, to indicate W'Kabi would side with Killmonger and try to kill T'Challa, until Killmonger dropped Klaue at his feet. New information creates new perspectives and makes friends (and lovers) into rivals and even enemies.

If everyone in Wakanda is all happy, happy, joy, joy about this new way for Wakanda, that's both boring and unrealistic. And what makes things interesting is when former allies start to have divergent views on the best future for their society.

 

[fionwe1987]

26 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Nothing. But that's the point. Becoming more open to the international community changes people. Some people who thought they wanted the change, suddenly realise they don't like the downside of that openness more than they like the upside and so they see their previous, naive, view as a mistake and would rather things went back to the way they were. And some people reticent about openness realise that they like this brave new world after all and decide to embrace the change.

As the newly elected Prime Minister of Wakanda it's very easy to see the scripting of some shit going down that is the fault of this new openness and Nakia has an epiphany that this openness was a mistake.

There was nothing, other than the predictability of movies, to indicate W'Kabi would side with Killmonger and try to kill T'Challa, until Killmonger dropped Klaue at his feet. New information creates new perspectives and makes friends (and lovers) into rivals and even enemies.

If everyone in Wakanda is all happy, happy, joy, joy about this new way for Wakanda, that's both boring and unrealistic. And what makes things interesting is when former allies start to have divergent views on the best future for their society.

 

Nakia's view of the outside world wasn't some idealized imaginary thing. She lived out there, and had first hand experience of the horrors non-Wakandans faced.

I think W'Kabi, the Jabari, etc. are better placed to cause the sorts of problems you discuss. There's nothing about Nakia that suggests she'd morph this way, and it'd be shit poor writing to just do an about face on a character.

[Corvinus85]

After a quick read about comics Nakia, it appears that the comic version is significantly different from MCU version. Comics version does become a villain, but because of her infatuation with T'Challa, which the MCU version doesn't seem to have, so if they turn her into a villain, they better give a damn good reason.

[KiDisaster]

Saw it last night and really enjoyed it. Micheal B Jordan's performance was a little wooden at times but everything else was great. Winston Duke stole every scene he had and I'm looking forward to seeing more of M'Baku in Avengers. Danai Gurira was amazing as well. 

One of my favorite MCU movies. 

[Darth Richard II]

I believe they have stated they don't plan to turn Nakia into a villain in the films.

[KingintheNorth4]

Came back from the theater not too long ago, and I agree with everyone here.

[Darth Richard II]

51 minutes ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

Came back from the theater not too long ago, and I agree with everyone here.

Really? Cause there are some very conflicting opinions here.

[Bastard of Boston]

On 2/23/2018 at 8:51 AM, Corvinus said:

After a quick read about comics Nakia, it appears that the comic version is significantly different from MCU version. Comics version does become a villain, but because of her infatuation with T'Challa, which the MCU version doesn't seem to have, so if they turn her into a villain, they better give a damn good reason.

Funny you should mention it, I just read the latest BP issue, which is the annual which came out last week, and Nakia makes an appearance. I'm more inclined to believe, per usual, that it will be the comics with attempt to course correct to the movie portrayal. I fully expect a Nakia/Malice redemption arc within the next year.

[williamjm]

I saw the film yesterday. I thought it was very entertaining, and definitely one of the better Marvel films, although not quite the best. I think the highlights were the spectacular Wakandan setting and an ensemble cast with many good performances in it.

The Marvel films have often had a problem with weak villains, I thought Michael B. Jordan put in a very charismatic performance here which made Killmonger one of the best villains in the MCU and he did have a motivation which made sense for him, although I think he might work as a memorable villain mostly because of Jordan's performance rather than the character necessarily having all that much depth. I think it could have been more interesting if he'd had similar motivations but hadn't had such an obvious Evil Plan, there's no question that T'Challa in the right here, if there had been a genuine debate about the future of Wakanda then that might have given the plot a bit more depth.

The endings turning into generic fight sequences has been another issue with MCU films, I thought Black Panther had one of the better final battles (and the action scenes were good throughout the film), although I wasn't so keen on the fight on the railway.